Road Bike Racing - Position/Placing Question

How do they determine the finishing order in your races? Video? Is there someone who stands there and goes "1st. 2nd, 3rd 4th5th6t78910..."? Or does everyone just get together after the race and sort it out?

In yesterday's Tuesday nighter, my 4th race, a 30 minute Cat 5 crit, I finally finished with the pack, in about 7th place. Everyone was kind of strung out at the end, and I'd noticed before the race that the officials had a video camera so I was mostly trying to keep track of how many finished in front of me.

But after the race, everyone kind of converged on the scorers and by the time I made it to them, all the top 10 places had been spoken for. Kind of cheesey, I thought, and while I'm mostly in it for the experience, it would be nice to cat up one day. Apparently the camera is just for the 1's through 4's.

So this week's lesson learned is to keep track of who finished just before and just after me.

This is a weird sport. Weirder is that each race is more fun than the last.

Cheers.

Florida uses timing chips, which zip-tie to the fork.
There is also a video backup and of course the officials write down numbers of riders way behind or off the front, as the race progresses.

For any local mid-week "training" races, don't expect anything more than a person trying to count off the first 3-5 riders for the prizes.

In the district I race in, typically, at training races (like the greenbelt series or tuesday nighter type races) the officials just eyeball and hand count who was where. For races that count (for BAR points - weekend races) there is a camera that captures the finish and used for establishing the finish order. The photos are also reconciled with the officials visual obs. and then when posted, are subject to rider protests within a 15 minute protest period.

Since you're a Cat 5 and I'm sure you have read the USA Cycling rules, you already know that your place doesnt matter for upgrading to Cat 4. Also, even once you're a Cat 4 and looking for points and top 10s for Cat 3 upgrade purposes, in a training type of race, your placing probably doesnt count for upgrading, so dont sweat it.

Florida uses timing chips, which zip-tie to the fork.There is also a video backup and of course the officials write down numbers of riders way behind or off the front, as the race progresses.

For any local mid-week "training" races, don't expect anything more than a person trying to count off the first 3-5 riders for the prizes.

I'm curious about these chips.

how long has FL used these chips? has their use been successful? when does the racer get a chip, raceday? at season beginning when they purchase racing license? any problems with discrepancy between who was first to get their front wheel across the line vs. whose fork/timing chip crossed the line first?

In my limited experience (6 races), I've encountered both ends of the spectrum.

At Bethel, CDR does a great job of making sure there is a camera setup for every race, including the 5's. The one time they didn't have it setup was because they were falling a little behind (sweeping the course) and just didn't get to it before the 5's finished (they race first). On that occassion, however, the officials did an amazing job at getting numbers for the top 20, and the results were posted in the usual fashion. No grouping of riders or discussion needed.

I've also been to a couple races where the rider group discussion was the only thing that decided placement. Very frustrating. Officials get 5 or 6 of the top 10 and start asking all the riders after the race, "Who were you next to?" Of course, most riders reply, "Uh. Everybody."

The races where the promoters/officials just take care of the results without the need for rider input are much more fun.

Thanks, and that's a good point about upgrades, MDcatV. I'm still trying to figure out how they work their categories for this series, though. On the race website, it says this:

"B flite racers are USCF Cat 3, Cat 4, and all Cat 4 riders in the top 10 from the previous years C flite." You get points for top 10 finishes, so it's probably worth looking into.

I race in the "C flite" (Cat 5), and thought that after 10 starts as a Cat 5, you were eligible to move up to 4. I'll ask around next Tuesday.

At Bethel we have a few things working in our favor for picking finishes:
1. Top of hill (everyone is slower). This is completely intentional since we couldn't afford a camera when we started the Series.
2. Excellent officials. They try and pick 20, we use the camera (usually, unless we screw up) to verify their results. In a day of picking numbers, they may write the wrong number down, but usually, even in very tight finishes, they'll miss maybe 2 numbers out of 140+ spots they pick each day (7 races, plus a few Juniors who race in the Masters race).
3. Camera back up

Eyeballing results, i.e. no camera, usually works except when people are dishonest or confused/mistaken. I've given prize money to people who claimed to have placed, only to be told later that the rider watched the sprint from the sidelines.

More often racers are simply mistaken. Having reviewed many, many, many finish line tapes with racers, MANY racers over estimate how well they did. It seems as they get more experienced they lose some of their optimism and become scathingly accurate. The P123s are especially like that - only the top guys come to verify their spots, and even the prime winners, when I ask how they did overall, they'll say "Oh, I got 17th I think". And I check their number and sure enough, they got 17th.

Usually, with the Cat 3s and below, the following scenario plays out:

"Oh, you got 11th? Let's check the tape. Okay.... here's the winner.. 4th.... 10th... 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, and I think this is you, 26th. Is that you?"
"Um... yeah, that's me. I coulda sworn..."

A good thing to do, if you're unconvinced by the official's version of the finish, is to have a friend tape the finish. With most digi cameras able to record video, and even phones, it's not a stretch to have someone (teammate, friend, spouse, etc) tape the finish. Even if it's grainy and you can't read numbers, you'll be able to pick yourself out, I guarantee it. And if you actually find the officials made a mistake, well, file a protest in that 15 minute period, showing the tape as evidence. If *you* have tape and the officials don't, it'll be very hard to dispute your version of things.

Make sure whoever tapes the finish tapes 20-30 seconds of it. This way you can prove that you didn't finish back further.

It's your responsibility to file protests, and you need to have absolutely convincing proof that you're right. I've lost a very high placing in a target race because of no camera and no proof - got 3rd or 4th, me and another guy were sprinting down the opposite curbs, and the officials never saw us. They focused on the two guys gunning for the win in the middle and never saw us. We had no pictures, no other racer confirmed this (I dunno why but anyone we beat would have lost places - and I think there were only 6 money places in the race).

The following week I got missed, again, while in the money, again, and I was pissed, again - two weeks in a row?! But then a big guy that passed me said "Wow, I got you in the sprint by a foot, I can't believe it!!". So I asked him to repeat the story to the officials. They put me one place behind him, 6th place. But until that guy told them who he beat by a foot, they didn't have me in the top 20.

Incidentally, if you read the rules (which I think every racer should do before they start racing), you are scored as finishing the race when your front tire breaks the vertical plane over the finish line. In other words, under normal circumstances, you need to get your front tire over the line. So even though your head may be in front, if your bike is not, you lose. Therefore learn to throw your bike and always throw it if you have any doubts about how you're positioned relative to others around you. Always. A good bike throw is worth 18 inches. If you're losing by a foot and you throw your bike, you may win. I've seen many Cat 4s and 5s lose a race because they didn't throw their bike or do it correctly.

cdr

In OBRA races, including the tuesday night series, they use a video camera + 15 minute protest system to get the results. They are really hard on people to fasten their numbers on properly so the camera can see them. Basically, sucks to be you if the number is wrinkled or fastened to the wrong side of your body.

the number is wrinkled

This is technically grounds for a warning or relegation (i.e. your place does not count) in a USAC event.

The reason for the rule is that it's virtually impossible to pick out a wrinkled number on camera. Trimmed and other "treatments" also cause problems. It's sort of like using the clear plastic covers on your license plate - they're sold to "protect" your plate but their main purpose is to screw up speed measuring devices like laser.

Wrinkling numbers may make them sit better on a racer who doesn't know how to pin a number on correctly but the side effect is that you may not be picked for your place.

If you wrinkle or fold over your number and you lose your place because of it, don't complain. You broke a rule and deserve punishment because you agreed to follow the rules in the rulebook when you entered the race.

If someone beat you and has a wrinkled or otherwise mutilated number, you can protest. It won't make you popular but it might provide an opportunity for the number-mutilator to receive official notification that such mutilation is not permitted. A warning would provide official word without relegating their place.

If you'd like to change this rule, propose a change to USAC. They consider all rule change proposals in the fall and make decisions by the end of the year.

Otherwise, if you'd like to make sure you keep the places/finishes you earn, don't fold, wrinkle, trim or otherwise mutilate your number.

Page 28-29 of the rulebook, the one you should read before you race :)

Link to that rulebook:
http://www.usacycling.org/forms/RdTrkCx_rulebook.pdf

cdr

More often racers are simply mistaken. Having reviewed many, many, many finish line tapes with racers, MANY racers over estimate how well they did. It seems as they get more experienced they lose some of their optimism and become scathingly accurate. The P123s are especially like that - only the top guys come to verify their spots, and even the prime winners, when I ask how they did overall, they'll say "Oh, I got 17th I think". And I check their number and sure enough, they got 17th.

I worked the finish line camera at our club's race and we got a lot of that too. A guy would come up and swear that he was xth place. We would go to the pictures, and sure enough he was where we placed him. But the worst was the juniors. The parents were rabid... they all came up at once and started yelling at the officials that everything was wrong and how could they do that etc... I think in the end it turns out one kid had been lapped and was placed much higher than he should have been, but for the most part it was all correct, which was especially impressive given that there were like 6 different age groups all going at the same time that had to be placed separeately...

I'm curious about these chips.

how long has FL used these chips? has their use been successful? when does the racer get a chip, raceday? at season beginning when they purchase racing license? any problems with discrepancy between who was first to get their front wheel across the line vs. whose fork/timing chip crossed the line first?

They've been used in Florida since September of last year. Personally, I like them.

Are the chips used in California?

I started a thread about the transponders

here (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=388232&highlight=). In all fairness, they seem to be working the bugs out and I've at least been ID'd correctly the last two races. Having split second data down to the thousandth of a second is pretty cool, too. They've been putting up a dynamic results page that has stats like fastest lap time and speed; you can see how fast your race was compared to the Pro123 race, and that sort of thing.

I did a race last year in which they were so inept - even with a video cam -- that they totally botched the placing, at least for me and another guy. Put me about 5 places ahead of where I belonged, which put me second place in my age class/cat. Then when handing out medals and podium spots, they announced all the wrong names and I (and the guy who had actually won second place, but was incorrectly pegged in third place) had to go ask for medals. The two of us then swapped medals and had a good chuckle.

What are you gonna do -- complain? The people running these races, at least around here, are not getting rich -- they're doing it as a service.

I started a thread about the transponders

here (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=388232&highlight=). In all fairness, they seem to be working the bugs out and I've at least been ID'd correctly the last two races. Having split second data down to the thousandth of a second is pretty cool, too. They've been putting up a dynamic results page that has stats like fastest lap time and speed; you can see how fast your race was compared to the Pro123 race, and that sort of thing.

This one too: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=403460&highlight=timing+chip .

Incidentally, if you read the rules (which I think every racer should do before they start racing), you are scored as finishing the race when your front tire breaks the vertical plane over the finish line. In other words, under normal circumstances, you need to get your front tire over the line. So even though your head may be in front, if your bike is not, you lose. Therefore learn to throw your bike and always throw it if you have any doubts about how you're positioned relative to others around you. Always. A good bike throw is worth 18 inches. If you're losing by a foot and you throw your bike, you may win. I've seen many Cat 4s and 5s lose a race because they didn't throw their bike or do it correctly.

cdr

+11,

that's how I won my first crit, if I hadn't thrown my bike (or if the other guy actually had) it wouldn't have been.

At my last RR I remembered to wait until there were no racers coming in and ask the scorers if they got me. Since I was probably 20th or worse it seemed somewhat pretentious to ask what place I got, but now that it's been a over a week and there's no results posted, I am wishing I had asked, or hung around to see the posted results. Is it ok to ask?

After asking if they got me, I thanked them for scoring. They seemed suprised by that.

This is technically grounds for a warning or relegation (i.e. your place does not count) in a USAC event.

The reason for the rule is that it's virtually impossible to pick out a wrinkled number on camera. Trimmed and other "treatments" also cause problems. It's sort of like using the clear plastic covers on your license plate - they're sold to "protect" your plate but their main purpose is to screw up speed measuring devices like laser.

Wrinkling numbers may make them sit better on a racer who doesn't know how to pin a number on correctly but the side effect is that you may not be picked for your place.

If you wrinkle or fold over your number and you lose your place because of it, don't complain. You broke a rule and deserve punishment because you agreed to follow the rules in the rulebook when you entered the race.

If someone beat you and has a wrinkled or otherwise mutilated number, you can protest. It won't make you popular but it might provide an opportunity for the number-mutilator to receive official notification that such mutilation is not permitted. A warning would provide official word without relegating their place.

If you'd like to change this rule, propose a change to USAC. They consider all rule change proposals in the fall and make decisions by the end of the year.

Otherwise, if you'd like to make sure you keep the places/finishes you earn, don't fold, wrinkle, trim or otherwise mutilate your number.

Page 28-29 of the rulebook, the one you should read before you race :)

Link to that rulebook:
http://www.usacycling.org/forms/RdTrkCx_rulebook.pdf

cdr

Thank you, cdr. I didn't know about this. A team mate said someone told him it helps keep it from flapping, and I didn't know any better. That's what you get from two Cat 5's deciding things for themselves. We've been crumpling them into a ball before pinning them before each race.

I will say, however, that not a single official has said anything and, afaik, there has been no placing mix ups at all. We're not total Cat 5 pack fodder either, at least not my team mate, he's podiumed 8 of his 10 Cat 5 races.

It depends on the official- many of them don't say anything about crumpled numbers. I don't fold mine down to make them smaller, but I do crumple them and pin them very well. I'm aware of the rule, but I can't think of a time that I've seen an un-crumpled number in a 1/2 race around here (so there are a lot of people disregarding the rule).

It depends on the official- many of them don't say anything about crumpled numbers. I don't fold mine down to make them smaller, but I do crumple them and pin them very well. I'm aware of the rule, but I can't think of a time that I've seen an un-crumpled number in a 1/2 race around here (so there are a lot of people disregarding the rule).

lots of crumpling going on, I think it's as much pre-race ritual as anything else. but i've seen the finish photos, if there's sunshine hitting the #, it looks like a prism and is unreadable. I've stopped crumpling mine just in case I'm in the mix ... I've got enough issues finishing with good results and dont need something avoidable working against me. just pinning the # on with the 7 pin paper, cloth, cloth, paper method seems to work as well for streamlining the # onto the jersey as crumpling and pinning in my experience.

I crumple out of habit but pin well. I haven't had an issue so far. Maybe I've been lucky. I also lead out for field sprints so my placing is pretty much irrelevant. If a have a good result it's usually from a break or a small group so it's not as much of an issue.

I once attacked my race, bridged up to the next race and finished top 10 in that race. They had me as a DNF until a reporter went to talk to the organizer and showed them pictures.

As for asking about your placing I usually think it's okay as long as you aren't rabid or harassing them while they are still sorting it out.

Good point about thanking officials and organizers. They usually respond well. When I was managing a team I always made a point to thank the organizer before we left. After a while they get to know you and this can smooth a lot of things out if you ever have problems down the road.