As some of you know I recently completed building out a Raleigh Twenty (pics here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulcstaley/sets/72157604011405932/)). It was great fun and IMHO the bike turned out well.
Unfortunately, having been unemployed for many months now, I need to sell this bike to pay a bill or two. It has been a great experience, one I will repeat in the future, but now it is time to find a new home for it.
The big question for me is, "What is it worth?" How do you price something like this? I have put a fair amount of money into it, but I do not really expect to recoup those expenses. I have never seen any bikes for sale with which to compare it. So I thought I would ask the knowledgeable folks here at the Folding Forum for their opinion and input.
Here are the specs:
Frame - 1974, everything replaced except folding bolt and nut; kickstand, chainguard clip and steering limiter removed; spray can enamel green and black, Nason clear coat
Rear wheel - SA8 hub (new) laced into BMX rim(used), 20x1.5 Kenda Kwest tire(used), tube(used)
Front wheel - Wheel hand built by Fleming w/ QR(new), 20x1.5 Schwalbe Marathon(new), tube(new)
BB - Shimano UN-72 68x113(used), Phil Wood retaining cups(new)
Crankset – CPI alloy 46T 175mm(new)
Pedals - System 1(inexpensive, used)
Chain - SRAM 1/8"x1/2"(new)
Brakes - Nashbar dual-pivot caliper(new) mounted on homemade drop bolt on rear w/ MTB lever(used), Tektro V-brake on front w/ own lever(used)
Cables - Jagwire(new)
Fork - Sun EZ Sport 20" recumbent fork(new)
Headset - Cane Creek S2(new)
Stem - Zoom, adjustable angle(new)
Bars - Flat bar(used) w/ bar ends if wanted
Seatpost - Kalloy 400mm(new)
Saddle - Foam/gel(definitely used!!)
What do you think? What could/should I sell it for? The sales venues that I have envisioned would be - this forum, Craigslist, eBay. Any others that I haven't thought of? More pics can be taken if needed. Any and all input and suggestions would be welcome.
I'm not sure how much you should ask for it, but you could probably get a better price if you finished it up by replacing the gel seat and adding cheap platform pedals and handgrips. That way it looks like a finished product and not a fixer-upper.
jur
04-09-08, 05:48 PM
I am really sorry to hear about your woes. :( I hope that goes better very soon.
Not being in the US, I don't have a good feel for it's worth. But I agree, just get a cheapie saddle and some grips before advertising.
I would guess what with the 8sp hub etc, it should fetch above $500? Or something not too far from a roughly equivalent Downtube?
LittlePixel
04-09-08, 05:52 PM
Sorry you have to sell - but there's always the delicious prospect of doing it all again with another one soon...
I concur with the above and add that a matching marathon reflector tyre at the rear might help with the sale too. It's a pain to add more cost before selling, but that old adage 'you have to spend a bit to make a bit' rings true - a bit like dressing a house for potential buyers.
It's hard to quantify 'worth' with these things - they are a niche bike and you'll likely never get back quite what you spent on it - kind of the same as restoring a cultish but generally unknown or unloved car; it's might be special to you but not to everyone. Restoring a rare sports car might be something where you get a return on your investment, and this I think would translate to a more desirable bike like a Moulton. But most people - certainly the people on these boards seem to like doing the build themselves so might not be your target market.
So who is? I think there is a market for such a nicely done bike - there is a demographic people like to get old things that have been restored properly that don't want to do it themselves, and billing it as a capable modernised utility bike should get you plenty of interest as long as the price you ask is realistic - ie less than a brand new Dahon with similar specs which is what will be on most people's radar as the pricepoint they'd like to undercut.
Good luck with the sale - you can always be happy in the knowledge you put another twenty back on the road and where it's meant to be - in use!
yohannrjm
04-09-08, 06:00 PM
Hey sahadev,
I've been looking for one to hotrod for a while. While this is already a completed project, I'm still interested. Depending on the price, I may be able to purchase it. I am in Boston, however, so it will have to be shipped.
Unfortunately, I just bought a Raleigh Competition to fix up, so my purchasing power is limited at the moment. I am in the process of selling a couple of my bikes (space issues), so that may change. Still, you might be able to sell it for a good amount somewhere closer to you.
Sorry to hear about your troubles. I hope they clear up soon.
sahadev
04-09-08, 09:49 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys, it is appreciated. I do have a saddle, grips and pedals that I can put on, and I will give some thought to matching the tires. There is a swap meet in our area in a week or two that would be a good source for parts.
I will try CL first and see what kind of response I get. I am in the SF Bay Area, so there are a lot of fellow bikers and interest in bikes. The Twenties on CL in the past have sold quickly, but they were original condition, not modified.
$500 seems high, buy hey, I can always start high and find out what the market will bear. That still won't cover what I spent, but I have not been expecting to recoup my costs. I will post what I am able to sell it for.
yohannrjm - I am in the same boat as you are, I also have a Competition to assemble. I have all the parts ready to go. As soon as the R20 is gone I will put it on the block as well. I will PM you about pricing the R20. I would like to have it go to an appreciative home.
SesameCrunch
04-09-08, 10:04 PM
Best wishes to you. Hope you get back on track soon.
jur
04-09-08, 10:41 PM
$500 seems high, buy hey, I can always start high and find out what the market will bear. That still won't cover what I spent, but I have not been expecting to recoup my costs. I will post what I am able to sell it for.
It may be; I thought of a Downtube 8sp. The R20 has some collector's value, even if not original, perhaps more so if already hot-rodded, plus it seems outfitted with same, equivalent or better parts than a Downtube.
werewolf
04-11-08, 06:50 PM
I might be interested in that bike. I don nid no stinking bodges or saddles or peddles or handlebars either. I've already got spares. Too bad you're not in my area, though, ie southern Arizona. I don't know how to safely buy a bike like this by mail. I mean if I sent you money, who's to say I'll ever hear from you again? Nothing personal, but you're just a name on the internet. Perhaps others can advise me on how this is done - and maybe it's sold already anyway.
I've got my new single speed Swift. If I get this one, I'll have two 20" folders. I'll get a collection of 'em like my hero, Jur!
SesameCrunch
04-11-08, 07:59 PM
I might be interested in that bike. I don nid no stinking bodges or saddles or peddles or handlebars either. I've already got spares. Too bad you're not in my area, though, ie southern Arizona. I don't know how to safely buy a bike like this by mail. I mean if I sent you money, who's to say I'll ever hear from you again? Nothing personal, but you're just a name on the internet. Perhaps others can adviswe me on how this is done - and maybe it's sold already anyway.
I've got my new single speed Swift. If I get this one, I'll have two 20" folders. I'll get a collection of 'em like my hero, Jur!
I can vouch for him. I have had a transaction with Sahadev. He's an upstanding guy.
doco
04-11-08, 08:21 PM
I've got my new single speed Swift. If I get this one, I'll have two 20" folders. I'll get a collection of 'em like my hero, Jur![/QUOTE]
watch out werewolf, this is how it starts, 1, then 2, then 18 ;)
as of yesterday, I am the proud owner of 3 folders counting>>
as far as buying bikes from the people on these forums, I have never had any problem and was always pleasantly surprised, for the most part, a bunch of good people
werewolf
04-11-08, 08:35 PM
Thanks, Sesame. You know him personally I take it? Sahadev - is everything working good - like the rear brakes, the used bottom bracket, the hub gear?
Can anybody give me some insight about how I might like this bike compared to my new single speed Swift (which I like)? How does the weight compare? Is it suitable for a big guy like me - about 250 lbs. including clothes and some gear? I've been ogling those R20's on this forum, like on Jur's photo journals...
jur
04-11-08, 08:42 PM
I like the look of the stem. Where are these sold? Need one for my Chzek (sp?) folder which is not on the road yet.
SesameCrunch
04-11-08, 09:06 PM
Thanks, Sesame. You know him personally I take it? .
I sold him a set of tires online. And he's the one who gave me the lead on the Moulton frame which I'm restoring. We're not social friends.
You'll be fine dealing with him.
stevegor
04-11-08, 09:16 PM
I'll get a collection of 'em like my hero, Jur!
....i wish i was someone's hero....
jur
04-11-08, 09:17 PM
Not hero material, I'm afraid... I just have a big mouth... :(
werewolf
04-11-08, 09:18 PM
I've got my new single speed Swift. If I get this one, I'll have two 20" folders. I'll get a collection of 'em like my hero, Jur!
watch out werewolf, this is how it starts, 1, then 2, then 18 ;)
as of yesterday, I am the proud owner of 3 folders counting>>
as far as buying bikes from the people on these forums, I have never had any problem and was always pleasantly surprised, for the most part, a bunch of good people[/QUOTE]
What folders do you have, Doco? How do you think this bike compares with our new Swifts? Ha ha - is this the beginning of a mad folder addiction? Where's that psycho piano player from that 1930's perils-of-marijuana movie!?
werewolf
04-11-08, 09:20 PM
Not hero material, I'm afraid... I just have a big mouth... :(
OK, but your photo journals are great - and you live in such an exotic part of the world - tho I guess it seems quite normal to you, living upside down and all.
werewolf
04-11-08, 09:21 PM
....i wish i was someone's hero....
Location: Oz
OK, you're my hero, too!
stevegor
04-11-08, 09:28 PM
Location: Oz
OK, you're my hero, too!
At last!!........ someone has noticed me
BTW, werewolf,
If Jur's achievements are true, he's one fit elderly gentleman
sahadev
04-11-08, 11:09 PM
werewolf,
Everything works just fine on the bike. I am having Phil Wood retaining cups installed tomorrow.
The BB is used, from eBay, but feels good and solid. The rear brake is new from Nashbar, and the hub is new from AEBike.
Shipping is easy enough. There is a LBS that does a very good job. I can ask for a quote to ship to AZ if you are interested. I shipped a Mtn Bike to Washington state last fall and it was $65 for boxing and shipping.
PM me if you are interested and we can discuss this further.
Sesame, thanks for vouching for me, even though we've only met on the side of a deserted road at the scene of an accident. Now I'll have to help with the Moulton! It's a tough job, but somebody has to do it. :):rolleyes:
DLBroox
04-12-08, 10:53 AM
I might be interested in that bike. I don nid no stinking bodges or saddles or peddles or handlebars either. I've already got spares. Too bad you're not in my area, though, ie southern Arizona. I don't know how to safely buy a bike like this by mail. I mean if I sent you money, who's to say I'll ever hear from you again? Nothing personal, but you're just a name on the internet. Perhaps others can advise me on how this is done - and maybe it's sold already anyway.
I've got my new single speed Swift. If I get this one, I'll have two 20" folders. I'll get a collection of 'em like my hero, Jur!
Paypal is a good way to handle transactions over the net. You set up an account and pay with a credit card. The other person sets up an account and recieves the money through Paypal. If you never see the bike, you can stop payment or contest it like you could a credit card.
werewolf
04-12-08, 10:54 AM
Sounds good, Sahadev. I'd like to have a geared bike in addition to my present single speed. Unfortunately, this place has been down a lot lately, and I'm waiting for some feedback for my questions about how the R20 compares with my Swift, and whether there are any weight restrictions on it. Jur, you have both the Swift and the R20. Can you give me some spiritual advice on this subject? I've got to head north to Phoenix now. I'm going for a quick bike ride first. When will I be at a computer next? Tomorrow I guess...
jur
04-12-08, 09:01 PM
Sounds good, Sahadev. I'd like to have a geared bike in addition to my present single speed. Unfortunately, this place has been down a lot lately, and I'm waiting for some feedback for my questions about how the R20 compares with my Swift, and whether there are any weight restrictions on it. Jur, you have both the Swift and the R20. Can you give me some spiritual advice on this subject? I've got to head north to Phoenix now. I'm going for a quick bike ride first. When will I be at a computer next? Tomorrow I guess...
The R20 doesn't have weight restrictions in the modern sense, it is 'just' steel.
Compare... that's hard. My Swift is my light-weight go-fast, while the R20 is my commuter workhorse, quite heavy (about 17kg). So they are not at all in the same category. The R20 feels very solid, dependable, but that is so dependant on what you do with it while building it up. Perhaps the easiest thing to say is the frame is solid as, no flexing, nothing. It can take punishment.
The best part of the R20 is thw creative part and the pleasure of riding something while having cult status is totally unique.
werewolf
04-14-08, 01:48 PM
Thanks, Jur.
DLBroox - You can contest a PayPal payment just like a credit card? I didn't know that. I know very little about PayPal. As I just told Sahadev by email, it's a hassle setting up a new PayPal account. I had one before, but rarely used it, and then it stopped working for no known reason, so I'm setting up a new one now, or trying to anyway. Apparently it takes at least several days to do that. That seems odd these days of instant electronic payments, doesn't it?
mconlonx
04-15-08, 09:05 AM
Sounds like a deal is pending and hope it works out.
If it doesn't...
Part the sucker out and ebay it. Seems like a crime to take apart a bike that you just got together, but I bet you'd find more people willing to pay more for two key parts apart rather than together: the frame and the 8sp 20" wheel. There's them what want a 20 and them what want an 8sp rear wheel, and sometimes they are not the same people. Consider selling the fork eparate, too, along with any specialty parts, like the stem and seatpost... although if you're emotionally attached to it and want to see it on the road, consider leaving as many critical items on the bike as possible, like the BB, headset, stem, seatpost, fork, etc.
I bought a '90 Schwill Paramount and turned it around for about 150% of the original purchase price by parting it out. (Got it, loved it, rode it, but not the commuter I was looking for, so it got reluctantly parted out to build a dream commuter bike.)
juan162
04-15-08, 09:48 AM
Sounds like a deal is pending and hope it works out.
If it doesn't...
Part the sucker out and ebay it.
This is true. You'll probably get more money for the parts...although it will really hurt to take it apart!
Juan
sahadev
04-15-08, 02:23 PM
I seriously considered the parting out route, but decided to try selling it first. The great thing about having put it all together is that if needed I can disassemble the bike entirely in 15 minutes or so. It's a piece of cake now.
werewolf
04-15-08, 03:36 PM
Well, as per our PM's and emails, I'm ready to complete the deal, Sahadev. I'm just waiting for you to get back to me with the shipping info, and figuring out how to get PayPal to work again. I just called PayPall again, and they told me that my original account is still open and that's why I can't open another one, and all I need to do is update my credit card info with them...except I can't...so I've got to call them yet again! As I said, I f'ing hate PayPal. I always pay for stuff by credit card or cash and both are painless and instantaneous, opposite of this thing.
werewolf
04-15-08, 04:18 PM
Sahadev -
I'm getting nothing but a runaround with PayPal, but they just told me that I do not even need a PayPal account to buy something from a merchant who has a PayPal account. They said that the merchant, you, can choose the option, "Send money request", and then I can pay by credit card. So, if that's correct, I'm ready to go, pending shipping info.
Maybe someday I'll sort out my PayPal account, but right now I'm just getting completely frustrated dealing with them.
sahadev
04-15-08, 08:39 PM
Moderator,
This thread has become more of a sales thread than I ever intended. I recently upgraded my subscription(BTW,where's my star?) and in the process made myself more aware of the BF policy about sales in the forums.
So I apologize if this thread is over that fuzzy line. The buyer and I have agreed to conduct the balance of our transaction via PM.
After all is said and done I will post the outcome.
kraftwerk
04-20-08, 09:20 PM
Sahadev,
Buying your bike would've saved me a lot of work and time. You did a good job. I like the front forks, Are they thread less? Must be. Anyway just throw some 5$ grips on there and a saddle. You can sell it to someone who knows the work work which goes into such a project. If you add the parts to the cost of the original frame/ bike (that SA 8 hub must cost something!) You should get in the ball park. Just don't expect to be able to charge for your hours of research and wrenching , alas! Good luck!
Sixty Fiver
04-20-08, 09:44 PM
The R20 doesn't have weight restrictions in the modern sense, it is 'just' steel.
Compare... that's hard. My Swift is my light-weight go-fast, while the R20 is my commuter workhorse, quite heavy (about 17kg). So they are not at all in the same category. The R20 feels very solid, dependable, but that is so dependant on what you do with it while building it up. Perhaps the easiest thing to say is the frame is solid as, no flexing, nothing. It can take punishment.
The best part of the R20 is the creative part and the pleasure of riding something while having cult status is totally unique.
The stock weight on R20's is about 37 pounds... through upgrades and a fixed gear conversion my Phillip's Twenty had lost 10 pounds prior to the installation of a new Brooks saddle.
The biggest appeal of the Twenty is how rugged and versatile a bike they are.
My other Twenty is more utilitarian but is still lighter than stock as you just have to lose those steel wheels.
werewolf
04-21-08, 12:56 PM
Steel wheels were also the worst feature on the good old Raleigh 3-speeds ("English racers" as they were called here in the old days...I guess they were "racers" compared with the heavy balloon tired coaster brake bikes that prevailed in the USA prior to their arrival in the '50's).
Sahadev's bike is in transit to me, someplace in California, according to FedEx.
I am trying to decide what handlebar I can put on it when it arrives. It will need to accommodate the 8-speed twist-shifter. I got a couple of good suggestions posting the query on the Bike Mechanic board. I'm thinking of putting on the contemporary equivalent of the old Raleigh handlebar. Perhaps those old things were more comfortable and naturally positioned than anything before or after. I haven't rode one in a very long time, though. Here's a link (but why are two different bars shown?)
http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=411
Handlebar ideas or suggestions?
werewolf
04-21-08, 12:57 PM
Steel wheels were also the worst feature on the good old Raleigh 3-speeds ("English racers" as they were called here in the old days...I guess they were "racers" compared with the heavy balloon tired coaster brake bikes that prevailed in the USA prior to their arrival in the '50's).
Sahadev's bike is in transit to me, someplace in California, according to FedEx.
I am trying to decide what handlebar I can put on it when it arrives. It will need to accommodate the 8-speed twist-shifter. I got a couple of good suggestions posting the query on the Bike Mechanic board. I'm thinking of putting on the contemporary equivalent of the old Raleigh handlebar. Perhaps those old things were more comfortable and naturally positioned than anything before or after. I haven't rode one in a very long time, though. Here's a link (but why are two different bars shown?)
http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=411
Handlebar ideas or suggestions?
Sixty Fiver
04-21-08, 01:14 PM
Some of my old steel wheeled bikes are decent in the braking department and I would never call an old 3 speed a racer unless it was something like my 1954 Raleigh Sports 3 speed road bike.
I can ride my 78 Superbe in the rain and she stops well, my '57 Peugeot has excellent braking, and the '54 Raleigh should also be okay...if they had alloy wheels they would be lighter and faster and stop better biut that would really affect their vintage appeal.
Brake pad selection is crucial and the issue with 20's is the long reach brakes that are simply so weak... alloy wheels help a lot in the front (the rear is still the weakest), and new brakes are always a good idea although that takes some work.
I really like the drop bars on my fixed Twenty... I usually stay on the hoods but being able to drop down when one is heading into the wind really helps with aerodynamics.
I am still running the stock brakes and rarely use the rear brake which is still only good for bleeding off speed despite the alloy wheels. The front brake delivers some good stopping power and the fixed drive also has improved the bike's stopping ability.
Some of my old steel wheeled bikes are decent in the braking department and I would never call an old 3 speed a racer unless it was something like my 1954 Raleigh Sports 3 speed road bike.
--- That's what they called 'em back in my old neighborhood back in the old days, though.
I can ride my 78 Superbe in the rain and she stops well, my '57 Peugeot has excellent braking, and the '54 Raleigh should also be okay...if they had alloy wheels they would be lighter and faster and stop better biut that would really affect their vintage appeal.
--- Are there now brake pads that will enable a steel wheel to stop in less than four or five city blocks in the rain? If so, that would overcome a big problem on the old Raleigh 3-speeds and R20's.
Brake pad selection is crucial and the issue with 20's is the long reach brakes that are simply so weak... alloy wheels help a lot in the front (the rear is still the weakest), and new brakes are always a good idea although that takes some work.
I really like the drop bars on my fixed Twenty... I usually stay on the hoods but being able to drop down when one is heading into the wind really helps with aerodynamics.
--- yeah, that is the big advantage of drops, going into the wind. I'm going to try an old fashioned 3-speed bar on my new R20, though.
werewolf
04-22-08, 04:57 PM
Got my R20 from Sahadev today!
Looks nice. Looked it over briefly. Only problem I see is a ding/dent on one of the dual bars that connect the bottom bracket to the top tube. Looks recent - paint knocked off, but no rust. Not sure how that could easily happen while riding. I wonder if the bike packers did it. I'll paint it. Shouldn't affect the integrity of the frame.
Two different brake levers. Should I change them? I'll change the rear tire and put on 2 schraeder tubes instead of one presta and one schraeder. I'll put a Scwalbe Marathon on the back, I guess.
Who has a good selection of 20X15 tires and tubes for sale? I'm having a difficult time finding places that carry them.
Front wheel needs some truing. Haven't noticed any looseness yet, like you mentioned, but then I haven't rode it yet.
Probably try the old Raleigh 3-speed style handlebars - nitto north wind, i believe they call them now.
Will add on my own peddles and saddle.
Couple of loose rubber seals, not sure where they belong...
Sixty Fiver
04-22-08, 05:26 PM
ww - I will go and check out the different brake pads I am using for steel wheels (no Kool Stops here) and let you know which ones work with what.
alecw35
04-23-08, 12:40 AM
I put old style bars on my Hercules compact.
There alloy bars I stripped off a 1980s bike.
There slightly larger Diameter than normal bars.
So couldnt get a twist grip or solid levers onto them
Is ok since Im using old alloy Weimman levers that have the clamp that comes to bits.
Think other modern bars should be a standard size these days
werewolf
04-23-08, 07:54 AM
65er - I have no steel-wheeled bikes anymore (the wheels on my new R20 have been changed). Just wondering.
Here's a photo of the damage that I found on the R20 that I received yesterday. For orientation, bike is upside down on floor. Cell phone photo so picture is a bit blurry. Does anybody have any thoughts on whether this will affect the integrity of the frame? The welds don't seem to be loosened up. There WAS a very hard impact there, though.
Sixty Fiver
04-23-08, 08:28 AM
ww - The 20 should be okay... the main frame is so tough that I hear that some people have even removed the small support struts...not that I would do this.
PDR
04-23-08, 09:10 AM
I’m surprised at the interest in these old bikes… I remember them as women’s shopping bikes that any self respecting youth wouldn’t be seen dead ridding!
Here is an original one that might interest you guys:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RALEIGH-TWENTY-STOWAWAY-VINTAGE-FOLDING-BIKE_W0QQitemZ320243263376QQihZ011QQcategoryZ33503QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RALEIGH-TWENTY-STOWAWAY-VINTAGE-FOLDING-BIKE_W0QQitemZ320243263376QQihZ011QQcategoryZ33503QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
Sixty Fiver
04-23-08, 09:15 AM
I'm not a self respecting youth... :)
werewolf
04-23-08, 10:59 AM
I'm not a self respecting youth... :)
Same here.
Hey, I just turned the shipping carton over and I noticed that there is a big hole in it. That must be how the damage occurred, during shipping. I also just spoke with my friend who buys and sells a lot of stuff on EBay. She said that I should take photos and then the seller should file a claim with FedEx. She said that if he doesn't do it, or doesn't respond, I can do it, and I can also file a claim with PayPal as the next resort. She said that she ordered something by FedEx and it arrived damaged, and she got the seller to file a claim with FedEx and FedEx just looked at the pictures and reimbursed her for the complete cost with no further ado.
werewolf
04-23-08, 11:00 AM
I’m surprised at the interest in these old bikes… I remember them as women’s shopping bikes that any self respecting youth wouldn’t be seen dead ridding!
Everything old is new again.
Sixty Fiver
04-23-08, 11:18 AM
Since picking up my Twenty's I just become more and more impressed at how good a bike they are once a few simple upgrades are made. Mine are still pretty much stock although both have new wheelsets and some drive modifications.
I'll be throwing my Twenty in the boot of a car I have to drop off 27 km from here and will then ride it back home... I have a saddle that needs some breaking in. :)
Those pylons aren't madly structural - the New Zealand and kids '18' versions left them off so
I think a wee dab of bondo, a bit of a sand and it'll be fine.