General Cycling Discussion - Weird experience with bike shop

I wanted to compare the tricross sport in size 52cm against the same bike in size 54cm at another place 10ks away. I went to the first, picked it up, rode to the second. But I obviously didn't explain myself well, and got an angry call from them wondering where I was and asking me to please come back asap. So I did a quick test on the second bike (meanwhile this place said I could borrow the bike for "a few hours" no worries), and headed back.

When I got there, they asked me if I was taking the 52cm, and I said I just wanted to gather my thoughts and would decide - both frames felt ok, the 52 was a bit better offroad, the 54 felt better down in the drops, but also the seat heights weren't exactly the same. When I said that, he demanded that I pay $50 for the "hire fee", which he would deduct from the cost of the bike if I chose to buy it there. Then he refused to return my passport which I had left as security against the bike.

I was just astonished, and even said to him, "Are you really willing to jeopardise a $2000 sale for $50?" But apparently yes. I don't see how I could possibly get the bike there - why would I want to deal with someone like that in future? He kept insisting that I pay $50, so in the end I left - without my passport.

I do understand that I communicated badly (I must have thought I had explained to both places what I was doing, but only told one), and that it was a bit presumptuous of me to assume I could test out the bike for a few hours. But I really did want to take it on a long ride to see how it felt as a touring bike.

Am I totally in the wrong here? Anyone had an experience like this? I feel really bad for the sales guy at that place, who helped me choose the bike, then ended up getting caught in the middle of it all when his manager flipped out.

Steve

Call the cops and tell them your passport has been taken under false pretenses. If you are in a country other than your own, call your embassy or consulate; they don't take kindly to non-government people taking your passport.

BTW, where did this happen?

I work in a bike shop and if you had taken a bike out for a test ride and not come back for a few hours there would be trouble too. We would just call the police and you would be arrested for bike theft.

You have admitted that you did not tell them your plans, so obviously they are upset. A bike that has been taken out for a few hours can have a 100kms put on it. If they let every customer do this the bike can easily need a new chain on it after a month of test rides.

I do not agree with them holding your passport, but the police should have been called, and a "rental" fee for the bike should probably have been paid.

I think you were extremely lucky they did not call the authorities. You would probably have been cleared in an investigation because the other bike shop would have confirmed your story. But that might have taken awhile.

It was not fair of them to take your passport. I would pay the $50 and be done with it even though you could probably bring back the authorities and get them in trouble for holding your passport illegally.

They acted poorly but that was based upon your poor actions.

Was the potential $50 fee made known to you before the test ride?
Was there an agreed time limit on the test ride?

Was the potential $50 fee made known to you before the test ride?
Was there an agreed time limit on the test ride?

Assuming the answer to these questions are no, then they have no right to charge you or hold your passport. I do think that you were lax in taking the bike for such a long time without confirming it first. But, the responsiblity is on their shoulders to explain to you what the terms are.

jim

...in a bike shop and if you had taken a bike out for a test ride and not come back for a few hours there would be trouble too. We would just call the police and you would be arrested for bike theft...

+1*10^many

Ok, to clarify a few things, let's first remember that they have my mobile number (and know that it works), and they have my passport. Theft is surely not an issue here.

Now:
>Was the potential $50 fee made known to you before the test ride?

No, of course not. "Please, test ride this bike you're considering buying from us. If you don't buy it, it's a $50 fee." Apparently this shop does actually hire out bikes, at $15/hr, so making it $25/hr is also odd.

>Was there an agreed time limit on the test ride?

No. The mechanic suggested that going around the block would be sufficient, but I made it clear that I wanted to go for longer than that. I don't think it was clear to me that there was a "limit", nor was it apparently clear to them that I wasn't intending to return immediately.

>I work in a bike shop and if you had taken a bike out for a test ride and not come back for a few hours there would be trouble too. We would just call the police and you would be arrested for bike theft.

No, really? You'd call me up, I'd say "ok, I'll bring it back asap", I'd bring it back, and you'd still call the cops? I don't think so.

>A bike that has been taken out for a few hours can have a 100kms put on it. If they let every customer do this the bike can easily need a new chain on it after a month of test rides.

Sure. There are lots of costs of doing business. In the course of choosing this bike, I've probably had over 20 salesman hours invested in me, from various shops. And this isn't "every customer". This is me almost at the point of purchasing the bike, having narrowed it down to a 50/50 split between two bikes. I'd agree with your point if I was taking some $6000 racer for a joy ride with no intention of buying, but this was really a genuine attempt to assess whether this was indeed the bike for me.

Even after returning, it was still maybe 25% chance that I'd buy it - until they behaved like this. I can understand why they were nervous. I can understand that they got upset. I can't understand why, having gotten their bike back intact, they would then piss off a customer on the point of purchasing, ruining any prospect of a sale, for the sake of $50.

Steve

Call the cops and tell them your passport has been taken under false pretenses. If you are in a country other than your own, call your embassy or consulate; they don't take kindly to non-government people taking your passport.


Fortunately I'm at home. I do believe there are laws against using passports as security, but I'm not sure whether they apply to the passport holder or the one taking it.


BTW, where did this happen?

A bike shop in the inner suburbs of Melbourne. I don't think naming it is necessary.

Steve

Am I totally in the wrong here? Anyone had an experience like this? I feel really bad for the sales guy at that place, who helped me choose the bike, then ended up getting caught in the middle of it all when his manager flipped out.

Steve[/QUOTE]

You are not in the wrong, I was asked to leave a $50 deposit in order to test drive a car several years ago. I said no, and walked out. The manager of the dealership later called me at home, apologized and asked that I come back. I said no, that is a sh**** way to do business. THEY ARE NOW OUT OF BUSINESS. There are too many options of where to spend our hard earned money, we need not put up with poor or discourteous service!

Too many assumptions made here.
Taking this bike out for that long, and especially to another bike shop is way out of the norm.

If I owned the bike shop I would refuse to sell you a bike based on your story.

a three-hour test ride is excessive, imo.

a rental fee for the time you spent on the bike would seem to be fair.

keeping your passport is out of line.

I have spoken.

Taking a test ride for that amount of time and distance was out of line, in my opinion.

Keeping the Passport? I wouldn't have used that for security. But now I'd be on the phone with everybody I could think of that could get that bike shop in deep kimchi.

And I would let them know that they blew the sale.

No, on second thought I would pay the $50, and get my Passport back...for the satisfaction of cussing out that manager.

I think they are being pretty clear about not wanting to sell you the bike, at this point. Wanting to 'gather your thoughts' made it clear to him he was being used. Under these circumstances, I wouldn't sell it to you either. I might have a real hard time finding that passport, too. bk

Thanks for the comments, all. The thing was, I really felt I was acting in good faith. I'd been pretty upfront with both shops that I wasn't certain which frame size I wanted, and wanted to try them out. Riding from shop A to point B wasn't some evil scheme to secretly borrow the bike for nefarious purposes - it was literally for me a way of seeing how the bike handled for a longer ride, would I feel comfortable etc. All I can think of in his reaction was that he saw me operating some kind of scam.

The really unfortunate thing from my point of view is that had I done it the other way (starting at point B), there wouldn't have been a problem - they said I could borrow the bike for a couple of hours. But I live much closer to A.

So overall I think I stuffed up and did something that wasn't reasonable, and in response, the owner was also unreasonable and did something that was probably illegal.

Steve

I'm still test riding my bike, its been 17 yrs. now. Still havent decided if I like it. The thing is the bike shop I got it from closed 3 years ago. What should I do?

I remember at least two shops that have offered to let me take a bike for a test for a couple of days, or the weekend, to give the bike a thorough test on familiar roads. This was their offer, not a request by me. Acutally, I was somewhat surprised at the offers. I thought they were more than generous. And I had never been in either shop previously. I didn't take either up on the offer, but I was impressed. Of course this would have been agreed on, with the expected return time, before the bike left the shop.

They charge for test rides? Wow. Please, please go shop somewhere else. They really don't deserve one penny of your money.

I do have to say, 3 hour test ride without prior notification is pushing it.

We rent and sell both bikes and snowboards, and things are handled like this:

Obviously snowboards cannot be test ridden in the parking lot, so any board a customer wishes to try goes out as a Demo with the same credit card deposit that any rental requires. Since this is usually on a nicer board than we carry as rentals, the price is higher to cover the loss in value as the board always comes back showing signs of wear and is now classified as "used", selling for less than full retail. The increased price also covers the labor to install/uninstall bindings and waxing after it is returned. The price of the Demo is refunded if the board is purchased, even if several boards are Demoed until a selection is made.

Bikes can be either test-ridden in the parking lot under supervision for free (with a driver's license as deposit) or taken out for a longer term as a Demo with the same requirements as any other rental. Again, the increased price covers inspection for damage, adjustments, cleaning and loss of value.

It's too bad that the shop didn't or wasn't able to make you aware of their policies, but FYI 4 hours is a standard half-day rental, not a test ride. If someone interested in buying my car took it out for a spin and wasn't back after 3 hours...I'd be freaking out and calling the cops too.

This comes down to some very simple concepts.

1) You screwed up: You should have been very VERY clear with them that this was a long distance test ride and had an agreement up front about any possible fees.

2) They screwed up: Unless they had you sign a document agreeing to a fee up front they have no legal right to charge you a fee after the fact unless they can prove damages. If they feel you "damaged" their property then they have every right to take you to court (small claims or otherwise).

3) They have now broken the law by illegally impounding you passport. Call the authorities and let them handle that part of it if the shop refuses to give the document back. It will get very ugly for them quickly.

Now with the above said. I would walk in and apologize for the misunderstanding and hand them what I deemed to be a fair amount of cash for my part in the misunderstanding. Based on your comments above I would give them $30 as a rental fee and never cross their threshold again.

We call the cops after 35 minutes. Dude, it's a test ride, not a demo. We sell new bikes, not bikes that have been test ridden to the ground.

At this point, you have no leverage for getting your passport back. If you wait too long, the price may go up. You ought to be worrying about this. bk

I don't think there was anything wrong with them keeping your passport until you paid the money. After all, if you use a hostel, they will quite often take your passport when you check in and give it back when you check out, after you've paid the bill. That's normal practice. The shop has to have some sort of security measures if they are going to let a person out with a $2000 bicycle.

As for the test ride ... all the shops I've test ridden bicycles at have taken my driver's licence, and the keys to my car (if I had a car at the time), and a member of the staff has stood outside on the sidewalk while I rode up and down the road right beside the shop. Taking off with the bicycle would likely have gotten me arrested.

I think Blindrage puts it best. In particular:

>1) You screwed up: You should have been very VERY clear with them that this was a long distance test ride and had an agreement up front about any possible fees.

I think how this happened was I didn't keep careful track of which bike shop I'd spoken to about what. I was on good terms with the salesman in that shop (call it A), and I'd spoken to shop B about taking the bike for a longer ride. In my carelessness, I assumed that would be fine with A as well.

Other comments:
>I don't think there was anything wrong with them keeping your passport until you paid the money. After all, if you use a hostel, they will quite often take your passport when you check in and give it back when you check out

The passport was left as security on the bike. I returned the bike. They should return the passport. The "hire fee" was a new concept invented afterwards.

>We call the cops after 35 minutes.

Even when you have my passport and can just call me?

>I do have to say, 3 hour test ride without prior notification is pushing it.

It was less than 2 hours. And here's the tricky point: I certainly "notified" them that I was going to be a while. I had thought they reluctantly agreed to that. But no.

I may also have different assumptions than the man in the street about the "unusedness" of the bikes. I expect them to have been test ridden a bit. If I'm going to do 5000ks on it, I don't care if it's already had 50. Particularly given that servicing is free for the first year. Sure, if the tyres looked really worn, I might complain and ask to have new ones put on, but that's going to work out at like $1 per customer test ride. Not $50.

Anyway, I bought the other bike. It was 50/50, and I couldn't see any compelling reason to have further dealings with this place.

Steve

I like shopping where they know they name. Being a familiar face. They let me test ride my new road bike for like 15 minutes. I put about 4 miles on it. And they did not even take my drivers license or credit card. That made me feel a little weird. It was only a 2000 dollar plus bike.

Maybe they'd read this story...

DNA trail led cops to unlikely bike theft suspect (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004194944_bicyclethief22m.html)

On a drizzly day last February, a young, athletic man in hospital scrubs walked into a triathlon-supply store in Seattle's Fremont neighborhood and said he wanted to buy a very expensive bicycle, and right away.

The man said he was an oncologist, and he looked and talked the part. So the staff at Speedy Reedy Multisport set him up with a $6,800 road bike and a helmet, and he sped off for a test ride on the Burke-Gilman Trail, leaving just his name, which he said was Tony.

He also left behind a Tully's coffee cup — with "Jake" written on it.

When neither the bike nor the man returned, the store called Seattle police. They took that coffee cup and tested it for DNA, which traced back to an unlikely suspect: Jacob J. Bos, a respected 35-year-old podiatrist from Longview.

Police and prosecutors say they have connected Bos to a string of high-end bike thefts stretching across the Northwest. And in doing so, they have left his friends and colleagues befuddled at an apparent secret side to the avid bike racer.

The thefts have also jarred a clubby community of elite cyclists who once considered Bos one of their own. Now once-trusting cycle shops all over the area are going as far as to photograph customers before they grant test rides on bikes than can cost more than a lot of used cars.

"This is like a brilliant kid who has another life," said Dr. Richard Kirkpatrick, who owns the Longview medical clinic that employed Bos. "Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde, it seems to me."

Bos is charged in Cowlitz County Superior Court with 12 counts of possessing or selling stolen bikes. He has pleaded not guilty. While out on $5,500 bail, Bos has twice attempted suicide, once by trying to slit his wrists and drive his car into the Kalama River, which resulted in his being detained at a psychiatric hospital in Vancouver.

Even as police were investigating the Fremont theft, one high-end bike after another was vanishing during test rides. In March, a $4,500 bike was ridden away from a Tacoma shop. In June, a $6,000 bike was taken from a store in Portland. In September, a shop in Bothell lost a $5,800 bike.

Bos even returned to Speedy Reedy in Fremont, according to charging papers in Cowlitz County. In December, he managed to ride off on a $5,500 Scott Plasma by talking store co-owner Reed Sillers — who wasn't on duty during the first theft — into another test ride.

"He knew what he was going to do, and knew he had us completely snowed," Sillers said. "He was a smooth operator."

And a follow-up on that story...

Bike-theft suspect hangs self in hospital (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004198553_bos24m.html)

A Longview man who faced multiple charges for allegedly stealing a string of expensive bicycles throughout the Northwest killed himself Saturday morning in a Longview psychiatric hospital where he'd been admitted after two previous suicide attempts.

Jacob J. Bos, a 35-year-old podiatrist, was the subject of a Page 1 story Friday in The Seattle Times.

Longview police spokeswoman Deborah Johnson said Bos committed suicide at St. John Medical Center in Longview at 6 a.m.

Bos hung himself with a belt in a hospital bathroom, according to Dr. Richard Kirkpatrick, who owns the clinic where Bos worked.

Bos had pleaded not guilty in Cowlitz County Superior Court to 12 counts of possessing or selling stolen bikes.

Other comments:
>I don't think there was anything wrong with them keeping your passport until you paid the money. After all, if you use a hostel, they will quite often take your passport when you check in and give it back when you check out

The passport was left as security on the bike. I returned the bike. They should return the passport. The "hire fee" was a new concept invented afterwards.

Are you sure that there wasn't something written on a card up behind the cash desk or some place about fees?

Have you got your passport back yet? If not, you might want to get on that. A new passport here in Canada cost about $80, which is more than the $50 fee they are asking.




>We call the cops after 35 minutes.

Even when you have my passport and can just call me?

I could be mistaken, but isn't that why you give them your passport ... so the police have somewhere to start when it comes to finding you and arresting you? When the places I have test ridden bicycles have asked for my driver's licence it's so they (or the police) can track me down if I were to take off with the bicycle.



>I do have to say, 3 hour test ride without prior notification is pushing it.

It was less than 2 hours. And here's the tricky point: I certainly "notified" them that I was going to be a while. I had thought they reluctantly agreed to that. But no.

I may also have different assumptions than the man in the street about the "unusedness" of the bikes. I expect them to have been test ridden a bit. If I'm going to do 5000ks on it, I don't care if it's already had 50. Particularly given that servicing is free for the first year. Sure, if the tyres looked really worn, I might complain and ask to have new ones put on, but that's going to work out at like $1 per customer test ride. Not $50.

From my experience, most of my test rides have been about 5 minutes in the parking lot in the back or up and down the side street. One place didn't even let the bicycle outside. The test ride was a few minutes on the trainer.

Based on that, "a while" could be translated 15 minutes, rather than 5 minutes. But not 2 hours!

Other comments:
>I don't think there was anything wrong with them keeping your passport until you paid the money. After all, if you use a hostel, they will quite often take your passport when you check in and give it back when you check out

The passport was left as security on the bike. I returned the bike. They should return the passport.
Just curious: Is it common practice for Australians to carry their passports during daily travels while in their home country? It's not likely you'll be making any border crossings.

Just curious: Is it common practice for Australians to carry their passports during daily travels while in their home country? It's not likely you'll be making any border crossings.

Most of the world uses passports as ID.

Yep, I almost always carry my passport as an ID. Since I got my driver's licence a while back, I sometimes leave the passport at home, but I still prefer it most of the time.

You took the bike out for a long time and they charged you a rental fee instead of calling the cops, which they could have even after you returned the bike. They could have made you buy the bike. The passport was your security on returning their like new bike, not one that you could have put sixty miles on or so.

If it was my shop, I would have probably made you pay the difference between a new and used bike, since that is what you brought them back and I would feel like I would have to discount the bike to sell it honestly.

All this 'once around the parking lot' stuff is one reason I ride my 'classic & vintage' bikes ;). I do not want to spend for a fancy new bike without being absolutely positively sure it's something I'll be comfortable on hour after hour. If I thought my LBS would let me ride for an hour, I'd have asked, and I might be on a new bike today. As an experienced rider, I know the time allowed is not enough to tell if it's really right. It's not like a car, which doesn't have to fit like a glove not only for ones body size but also ones riding style. If the OP is wrong, then in my opinion the LBSs need to alter their practices. Should allow customers to take long test rides on bikes that are intended to be ridden long distances.

^^^^ So if you order a custom bike built by a custom frame builder you're taking a chance that it will be comfortable on long rides as there are no test rides....

^^^^ So if you order a custom bike built by a custom frame builder you're taking a chance that it will be comfortable on long rides as there are no test rides....

+1

And that's exactly what I did with Machak, my Marinoni Ciclo. The shop measured me up, sent the info off to Marinoni ... and several weeks later my bicycle was delivered. Fortunately, he's the most comfortable bicycle I've ever owned. :)

IMO, you don't need long test rides ... you need to do your research prior to shopping for a bicycle, and know what it is that you want.

From the shop owners perspective, it was not a test ride. It was just some guy who wanted to take a free ride on one of his high end bikes by posing as a potential buyer with no intention of buying. The tip off was I just want to collect my thoughts. It means "let me out of here without any trouble".

The shop owner has seen this type of action before so he got ticked and made some trouble. Rightfully so. His response to a request for the return of the passport should be; hire a lawyer. bk

Custom bike -- several G's -- I hope they'd take their time, but no guarantees even then. Off-the-rack bike, only one G, "here ya go bub, this one we have right here is exakly right 4 u"... no thanks to that. I can read reviews here, I can measure the bikes I ride, but not sure that's enough. Not sure the 'here ya go bub' from a bike shop is enough 'value added'.

Call the cops and tell them your passport has been taken under false pretenses. If you are in a country other than your own, call your embassy or consulate; they don't take kindly to non-government people taking your passport.

BTW, where did this happen?

1.Good answer.

2. Guard your passport like it is your life, don't give it to anybody who doesn't absolutley need to have it. Ever.

>The passport was your security on returning their like new bike

Here's the interesting point. I looked it up and a passport can't be used as security - it can't have a "lien" on it. So from the legal standpoint:
* They have illegal possession of a passport which is not theirs. Possible 10 years in prison or ~$100,000 fine. http://scaleplus.law.gov.au/html/pasteact/3/3693/0/PA000500.htm
* They claim that I owe them $50. There's no question of theft since they have their bike back. They could possibly sue me.

So I'll ask for it back in writing, referring them to the Act.

Steve

>From the shop owners perspective, it was not a test ride. It was just some guy who wanted to take a free ride on one of his high end bikes by posing as a potential buyer with no intention of buying. The tip off was I just want to collect my thoughts. It means "let me out of here without any trouble".

>The shop owner has seen this type of action before so he got ticked and made some trouble. Rightfully so.

Yeah, I think that's exactly what happened. It's extremely unfortunate.

In the end, I went and tried the 54cm frame again, took it for a nice long spin (with their blessing). It was pretty good, slightly tiring in the shoulders though, so I had the stem replaced by a taller/shorter one, and bought it. There was virtually nothing in it between the two sizes, so really the owner just talked himself out of a sale when I was virtually at the point of pulling out my credit card. And I think I've picked up some pretty useful experience and life lessons.

Steve
PS Of course, if after this weekend the 54cm turns out to be uncomfortable, we'll call it karma.

>IMO, you don't need long test rides ... you need to do your research prior to shopping for a bicycle, and know what it is that you want.

I did a lot of research. Couldn't find any definitive answer on sizing. One site (something wrench) told me I needed a 53cm :) For all the "fit kit" hype, three different salespeople recommended a size simply by looking at me and judging my eye level relative to theirs. I think at the end of the day person preference has a big part in sizing (a girl exactly my height bought exactly the same bike on the same day - in 58cm!), so that was where the long ride came in. Ultimately it wasn't as conclusive as I would have liked, but it reassured me that neither option would be terrible.

I guess also that different people respond differently to different salesperson demeanours. I react well to "take your time, get this right". I react badly to "buy this bike now or you owe us $50".

Final irony: the place where I finally bought the bike was charging $50 less for it than the other shop. :)

Steve

Final irony: the place where I finally bought the bike was charging $50 less for it than the other shop. :)

Steve

Heh...

Okay, so, did you get your passport back yet?