Much of the oil supply issue is like a water well, pull too much from it, it goes dry. Wait a while, it comes back. There is a rate of extraction - and you can't get around it without using.... you guessed it, energy.

Upon thinking about it, rationing might be a better way to obtain cleaner skies, conserve unrenewable resources, and reduce global warming than taxation would be. People would resent it if only the exceedingly wealthy could afford to drive. Rationing on the other hand, affects everyone equally, all the while cutting down on the filth that motorists put into the air.:)

Upon thinking about it, rationing might be a better way to obtain cleaner skies, conserve unrenewable resources, and reduce global warming than taxation would be. People would resent it if only the exceedingly wealthy could afford to drive. Rationing on the other hand, affects everyone equally, all the while cutting down on the filth that motorists put into the air.:)

black market, black market BLACK MARKET!!!!

You actually think that the wealthy still wouldn't drive as much as they wanted? You have rich members of the global warming conference jet setting around the world in their carbon spewing private jets (gore included) preaching their do as I say not as I do message.

You think that paris hilton is going to roll up to the red carpet on a recumbent bike? The affects of rationing have been well documented throughout history, and have been mentioned ad nauseum within this topic (and the other one in this particular sub-forum). IT DOESN'T WORK!!!!

And believe me, people would resent it regardless of what the rich people did or did not do.

Why do you think it would work this time around?

I don't understand the fascination with rationing when there's dozens of other things we can do that would actually make a difference. All of them less painful and easier to enact than rationing.

We have way too many unpredictable and irresponsible cyclists, in every community. These are the ones who run stop signs and red lights, ride on the wrong side of the road or on the sidewalk, don't bother to signal and weave in traffic. Because of them, too many motorists say they don't like cyclists.

While I believe in cycling, I would also like to see some traffic enforcement for cyclists who ride dangerously or carelessly.

When the cycling community takes itself seriously, others will also take us seriously.

I very much agree with that. When I see fellow-cyclists doing those sort of things--as well as riding at night without lights :eek::eek::eek: I want to reach out and slap them upside their (all-too-often unhelmeted) heads.

Has anybody noticed that the known carrying capacity for planet Earth
is 2 billion humans and we have 6 ,going on 7 now, billion humans to
feed, house,employ and/or support?

It's simple supply vs demand all over again.

Industrial hemp (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&q=industrial+hemp&btnG=Search). I'm very surprised how little it is discussed in these forums (especially the car free subsection).

Industrial hemp (http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&q=industrial+hemp&btnG=Search). I'm very surprised how little it is discussed in these forums (especially the car free subsection).

The last time I checked growing hemp in any form in the US of A is illegal, without a federal permit. My grandparents grew it back during WW2, the occasional wild plant still shows up on the old farm place and you had better not get caught with one:rolleyes:

Aaron:)

The last time I checked growing hemp in any form in the US of A is illegal, without a federal permit. My grandparents grew it back during WW2, the occasional wild plant still shows up on the old farm place and you had better not get caught with one:rolleyes:

Aaron:)

That's true, but laws can be repealed or amended, and will be if the legislature has enough pressure put on it. This, boys and girls, is what is called 'democracy.' Can you say 'democracy'? I thought you could.

Tell me about the CA law legalizing pot that was voted in.
That's right, it was killed by our National Gov.

Oh, electoral college. Look it up.

CE

Actually, the appropriate passage of the Constitution is the supremacy clause; hence, the legislature in question which would repeal the anti-industrial-hemp laws is Congress. Which is not chosen through the electoral college, but by the people.

If you don't like it, run for Congress yourself; if you can get enough people in your district to agree with you, you can introduce a bill when you get elected.

That's true, but laws can be repealed or amended, and will be if the legislature has enough pressure put on it. This, boys and girls, is what is called 'democracy.' Can you say 'democracy'? I thought you could.

I didn't know we were in a democracy anymore...I thought it was a plutocracy:rolleyes:

Aaron:)

I didn't know we were in a democracy anymore...I thought it was a plutocracy:rolleyes:

Aaron:)

I thought it was a Kleptocracy myself :(.

kakistocracy

rule by the least qualified and most unscrupulous

Some you guys need to pick up a piece of ancient technology called a book.

Rationing sucks.

I have seen it. Anyone that has lived through it can tell you it's really, really, bad. If you have an actual, honest to God EMERGENCY. Then it might be worth the aggravation.

We aren't even close to that point.

Before you spout more nonsense, study.

That's right, study.

But since you won't, here's the what works. Denmark slapped on a Carbon tax and used the money from it to fund the development of alternative energy sources. That actually reduced their dependence on oil and other carbon fuels.

The other options are crap.

Some you guys need to pick up a piece of ancient technology called a book.

Rationing sucks.
(snip)
That's right, study.

But since you won't, here's the what works. Denmark slapped on a Carbon tax and used the money from it to fund the development of alternative energy sources. That actually reduced their dependence on oil and other carbon fuels.

The other options are crap.

The other options might work once you 2 x 4 the public upside the head with rationing to
get their attention.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just look at the difficulty just getting them to read & learn about this issue has become.:eek::eek:

The other options might work

Actually, they won't.

1) Rationing self-destructs... Fact 'o Life
2) Cap and trade is about 20% as effective as a Carbon Tax
3) You have to get the money to stimulate alternative energy sources and the federal budget is going to be VERY tight for a decade.

There may be another way to do this. I have not seen it.

Actually, they won't.

1) Rationing self-destructs... Fact 'o Life
2) Cap and trade is about 20% as effective as a Carbon Tax
3) You have to get the money to stimulate alternative energy sources and the federal budget is going to be VERY tight for a decade.

There may be another way to do this. I have not seen it.

But ultimately there will be rationing of one form or another:

Rationing by price. The price goes up until demand goes down. Essentially the default case, if we fail to act.
Rationing by availability. Shortages lead to reduced demand.
Rationing with coupons, like the OP suggested.


We can pick which one we want, but as supplies of oil dwindle, we will end up with some combination of the above..

But ultimately there will be rationing of one form or another:

Rationing by price. The price goes up until demand goes down. Essentially the default case, if we fail to act.
Rationing by availability. Shortages lead to reduced demand.
Rationing with coupons, like the OP suggested.


We can pick which one we want, but as supplies of oil dwindle, we will end up with some combination of the above..
• Rationing by price
This option is the simplest free market option but it essentially penalizes the poor. If we're talking about fuel rationing, the price will take an ever-growing amount of money. The low-income wage earner who needs to commute to work each day will feel the pinch much more than the executive who has a rich salary.

• Rationing by availability
The way I understand this one, it could happen in one of two ways. If motorists are allowed to buy fuel only on certain days, it's an inconvenience but it could be workable. On the other hand, if the supply is allowed to run out, the pumps in a community could be dry for a day, a week or longer, with no pattern in place. This would lead to chaos.

• Rationing with coupons
Under this system, motorists are limited to how much they can buy, but the price is kept low or at least modest. This system can only work if the vast majority agree with the need for rationing. Without that, an ugly black market would arise and fuel prices there would skyrocket.

No matter which form of rationing one chooses, there will be some drawbacks. A rationing system is not something to be imposed lightly. It is a method for coping with an emergency situation.

Rationing by price is already in place and starting to be felt in some quarters.

Rationing by supply is never more than a few days away at most in the US supply system, due to aging infrastructure and lack of a back up system or plan.

Rationing by coupon...I can't see anyone in the current or incoming goverment suggesting it...political suicide.

Owning, using and knowing how to maintain my bicycles, using mass transit (Amtrak)...Hedging my bets:p

Aaron:)

• Rationing by availability
The way I understand this one, it could happen in one of two ways. If motorists are allowed to buy fuel only on certain days, it's an inconvenience but it could be workable. On the other hand, if the supply is allowed to run out, the pumps in a community could be dry for a day, a week or longer, with no pattern in place. This would lead to chaos.

If motorists were only allowed to purchase on certain days, it probably wouldn't lead to much of a reduction in demand.

Any hint that the supply might run out would also lead to hoarding, which would tend to exacerbate any shortages.

If motorists were only allowed to purchase on certain days, it probably wouldn't lead to much of a reduction in demand.

Any hint that the supply might run out would also lead to hoarding, which would tend to exacerbate any shortages.

That is a given...immediate post Katrina there was a massive run up in sales followed a few weeks later by a slump. I have a friend that manages a Hess station in NC. Her sales right after the news of possbile shortages hit, increased almost 5 fold over a 2 day period. She sold more in those 2 days that they normally do in a week. I plan quite a bit further ahead than that...I never let my truck get below half and keep a bicycle handy at all times.

Aaron:)

• Rationing by price
This option is the simplest free market option but it essentially penalizes the poor. If we're talking about fuel rationing, the price will take an ever-growing amount of money. The low-income wage earner who needs to commute to work each day will feel the pinch much more than the executive who has a rich salary.

• Rationing by availability
The way I understand this one, it could happen in one of two ways. If motorists are allowed to buy fuel only on certain days, it's an inconvenience but it could be workable. On the other hand, if the supply is allowed to run out, the pumps in a community could be dry for a day, a week or longer, with no pattern in place. This would lead to chaos.

• Rationing with coupons
Under this system, motorists are limited to how much they can buy, but the price is kept low or at least modest. This system can only work if the vast majority agree with the need for rationing. Without that, an ugly black market would arise and fuel prices there would skyrocket.

No matter which form of rationing one chooses, there will be some drawbacks. A rationing system is not something to be imposed lightly. It is a method for coping with an emergency situation.

I agree 80% which IMO makes Gov't controled rationing the best (even with all it's problems)
way to keep the playing field at least seim-level for all until a new American Dream emerges.
There simply to many people in America (it's all about "supply & demand" folk's) to do otherwise.

The black market thing will emerge anyway.

For those of a historical bent: WWII gasoline rationing was voted in within a day or two after the US declared war upon Japan. There were three classes: A for the general public; B for those with a legitimate need (spelled out in the legislation) for a ration about double that of A; and C which was essentially unrationed fuel, mandated for police, fire, other critical public services.

What's never mentioned in the history books is that Congress (House and Senate) promptly added a corollary giving themselves and their staffs C ration stickers.

Surprise, surprise. Count on that happening again, should we ever do legislated rationing again. After all, our politicians are SO necessary to our way of life.

I've even heard upper middle class persons (unfortunently it was an aunt and uncle) who have more than enough disposable income say that it would just be great if they just raised gas prices artifically to $5 per gallon, then less people will drive. Mind you they have an honda insight and hybrid civic.
.

I am an unemployed college student who has to get to a school 35 miles away half the week and I have always been telling anyone who can listen that I hope gas hits $4 soon and I can't wait for $5 or even $6.
It would really make some people start looking at alternative trasnportation.
But given that I am on these forums my opinion is biased because I only use my car to get to class, the bike gets me everywhere and anywhere else I could need to go.