Living Car Free - America's oil depenence cure...Rationing!

IMO it seems that one of the better ways to cure America of
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.

Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.

It will happen. When cops, fire-fighters, farmers, truckers, railroads and the Armed Forces can't get fuel, you can bet there will be emergency rationing put into place, and the soccer moms and dads in Tahoes are going to bear the greatest burden, because they are the greatest wasters.

F' in soccer moms! *shakes fist*

It will happen. When cops, fire-fighters, farmers, truckers, railroads and the Armed Forces can't get fuel, you can bet there will be emergency rationing put into place, and the soccer moms and dads in Tahoes are going to bear the greatest burden, because they are the greatest wasters.

they are? Here I always thought it was the trucking industry. Or the airline industry, or the delivery industry (fed ex/ups).

Rationing will just create a black market for fuel.

Maybe we should just outlaw soccer. Then the soccer moms and dads won't have anywhere to drive.

IMO it seems that one of the better ways to cure America of
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.

Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.

And maybe we can cure the obesity problem by rationing food? Or reduce cancer deaths by rationing tobacco? Or alcoholism by rationing beer, wine, and liquor?

How easy it is to restrict other people's behavior by simply passing laws! Oops! Those people might decide to vote.

In my experience people that call for reforms/high fuel effiecencies/restrictions/etc are usually persons who already have enough disposable income to offset/allow themselves to purchase more efficient means of using fuel/alternative energies.

I've even heard upper middle class persons (unfortunently it was an aunt and uncle) who have more than enough disposable income say that it would just be great if they just raised gas prices artifically to $5 per gallon, then less people will drive. Mind you they have an honda insight and hybrid civic.

The unfortunent side of forced sanctions/regulations/rationing is the effect that it has on the lower socio-economic groups.

Soccer mom doesn't really feel a pinch when gas goes up $.30 per gallon in a day regardless if she is driving her Hummer or Toyota Prius.

Single Mother that is a waitress, she will definently feel the pinch when she is trying to fill up her 5yr old minivan or cavalier. Or really anyone else such as the elderly or persons on fixed incomes.

Tightwad, the way you speak seems to show that you have a living situation that allows you to commute without fuel, majority of the residents of this country do not have that same luxury as you.

In my experience people that call for reforms/high fuel effiecencies/restrictions/etc are usually persons who already have enough disposable income to offset/allow themselves to purchase more efficient means of using fuel/alternative energies.

I've even heard upper middle class persons (unfortunently it was an aunt and uncle) who have more than enough disposable income say that it would just be great if they just raised gas prices artifically to $5 per gallon, then less people will drive. Mind you they have an honda insight and hybrid civic.

The unfortunent side of forced sanctions/regulations/rationing is the effect that it has on the lower socio-economic groups.

Soccer mom doesn't really feel a pinch when gas goes up $.30 per gallon in a day regardless if she is driving her Hummer or Toyota Prius.

Single Mother that is a waitress, she will definently feel the pinch when she is trying to fill up her 5yr old minivan or cavalier. Or really anyone else such as the elderly or persons on fixed incomes.

Tightwad, the way you speak seems to show that you have a living situation that allows you to commute without fuel, majority of the residents of this country do not have that same luxury as you.

people generally don't give a crap if the law doesn't affect them personally.

Government illegally spying on its citizens? Who cares it doesn't affect me!

Ban all trans fats in the city? Great!!! I'm already skinny and I never eat out. Who cares???!!!

Rationing? Great idea!!! I'm carbon positive! screw everyone else!

Bike tax? Whoa now!!! This is an outrage!!! I already pay my taxes!!! Who thought of this stupid idea??? I want someone's head over this!!! Critical mass ahoy!!!

And maybe we can cure the obesity problem by rationing food? Or reduce cancer deaths by rationing tobacco? Or alcoholism by rationing beer, wine, and liquor?

How easy it is to restrict other people's behavior by simply passing laws! Oops! Those people might decide to vote.

Well, in a very real way (again WWII) food WAS rationed forcing more people to plant
Victory Gardens and raise rabbits, ducks & chickens to supplement the food they was
being rationed. Also many grew their own, or traded, tobacco and brewed their own booze.

So what' yer point here?:rolleyes:

they are? Here I always thought it was the trucking industry. Or the airline industry, or the delivery industry (fed ex/ups).

Rationing will just create a black market for fuel.

Maybe we should just outlaw soccer. Then the soccer moms and dads won't have anywhere to drive.

Would that be the trucking industry that includes companies like UPS who are putting CNG vehicles on the road to reduce the use of oil, or other trucking companies that are updating regulators in their vehicles to cap their speeds? I can't say I know any parents driving SUVs that have regulators to cap speeds in their vehicles to maximize fuel efficiency. Personally I think the trucking industry is getting hit very hard by the fuel costs and they are doing what they can to conserve. Just go to your local gas station and compare prices of diesel to unleaded. Much higher.

Tightwad, the way you speak seems to show that you have a living situation that allows you to commute without fuel, majority of the residents of this country do not have that same luxury as you.

I don't commute any more since I've retired. However, I did ,ride when I could, limit my
fuel consumption to only work use. As a child of the 1950's I learned the hard way to
make it last, use it up, or do without...and not whine about. :mad:

All to many people today need to learn that lesson (excluding the poor 'cause they already know)
today.

IMO it seems that one of the better ways to cure America of
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.

Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.

LOL. I remember the last time we tried fuel rationing.

http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t049/T049147A.jpg

You'll have to handle it a whole lot better than last time, and give people a good justification or they'll be getting very self-righteous and angry.

It's pretty clear that gas supplies are trending down and demand is rising faster than ever. At some point demand will exceed supply. Rationing will result, no matter what anybody on this forum says or believes. That's just the way the economic world works. Get used to it and get over it!

The rationing will either be price rationing or some form of coupon rationing. Price rationing will benefit the wealthy, who will continue to buy as much gas as they want for as long as they can afford it. Coupon rationing will benefit the middle class and the poor, who will have to drive less rathe than not at all.

If you're rational about rationing, you'll advocate for the form of it that benefits you the most. For most of us, that would be coupon rationing. For a lucky few, price rationing will be better.

Of course, whatever form rationing takes, the real bneiciaries will be the oil producing countries and corporations. :)

Roody good points.

Here is an article (http://www.fcnp.com/national_commentary/the_peak_oil_crisis_the_first_shortages_20080409.html) that gives you an inkling of what is transpiring even now. I follow Tom Whipple's articles with great interest, he seems to have more of a real world grasp on what is happening than anyone else around.

Aaron:)

Coupon rationing... Ask anyone who grew up in Soviet Union how well that worked out. :rolleyes:


It's pretty clear that gas supplies are trending down and demand is rising faster than ever. At some point demand will exceed supply. Rationing will result, no matter what anybody on this forum says or believes. That's just the way the economic world works. Get used to it and get over it!

The rationing will either be price rationing or some form of coupon rationing. Price rationing will benefit the wealthy, who will continue to buy as much gas as they want for as long as they can afford it. Coupon rationing will benefit the middle class and the poor, who will have to drive less rathe than not at all.

If you're rational about rationing, you'll advocate for the form of it that benefits you the most. For most of us, that would be coupon rationing. For a lucky few, price rationing will be better.

Of course, whatever form rationing takes, the real bneiciaries will be the oil producing countries and corporations. :)

Coupon rationing... Ask anyone who grew up in Soviet Union how well that worked out. :rolleyes:

It's barely possible that another society might handle rationing better than the USSR did.

Besides, I think they relied more on availability rationing than coupon rationing, which would be more similar to the gas shortages of the 1970s and 1980s. Availability is probably the unfairest of all rationing systems, since it relies mainly on luck.

Let's try to keep the apples with the apples, OK? :)

It's barely possible that another society might handle rationing better than the USSR did.

Besides, I think they relied more on availability rationing than coupon rationing, which would be more similar to the gas shortages of the 1970s and 1980s. Availability is probably the unfairest of all rationing systems, since it relies mainly on luck.

Let's try to keep the apples with the apples, OK? :)

It's also possible that pigs can fly. People will be people. You start doing any kind of rationing people will start hording it, or selling it at profit on black market. Rationing is rationing. There is nothing magical about gasoline, rationing it will produce the same results. Rationing was done based on coupons which led to decrease in availability. All of that stuff could have been bought at stores that didn't have rationing, but most people couldn't afford it.

All these ideas about increasing gas prices, rationing are short sighted knee jerk reactions that will only lead to failure. You can't just change people behavior in a positive way by passing laws or imposing restrictions. You need to change how people think fundamentally. Assume current generation is lost, and start educating the next one. Get kids to view bike/public transportation as a usual thing, getting a car not a passage to adulthood, start improving roadways so it's easier to ride a bike, walk, make public transportation more useful, etc. The change will be slow and will take a generation or two, but it will be more permanent and permanent then imposing rationing.

IMO it seems that one of the better ways to cure America of
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.

Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.
There's no reason to ration fuel, as rising prices will have the same effect--of reducing the overall miles that people drive.

The reason that the US had fuel shortages in the 1970's was that the US government enacted price controls in the face of an embargo. In other countries at the time, they were not that idiotic and allowed the price of fuel to float to whatever the market would bear. Although it was more expensive for a while, fuel was generally available if you had to drive somewhere and other countries never experienced the long lines and empty gas stations that the US did.

-----

The USSR is a grand example of that most common Socialist failure, market price controls. Require farmers to sell their goods for less than they think it's worth, and just like magic, every year is a bad year for crops--but the farmers or their close friends never seem to go hungry. And the ruling class doesn't go hungry either, because they pay the farmers through the back door. So who suffers? Are you a farmer or one of the ruling class?....

-----

Also many aspects of daily life have gotten to the point that for many people, motoring a lot is simply required. When you say what a great idea it would be to ration gas or raise it to $10/gallon, you should understand that you're basically proposing kicking the US economy in the nuts--and no politician is going to do that.
~

IMO it seems that one of the better ways to cure America of
it hearty appetite for oil is to bring back fuel rationing to
force the change in mindset that America isn't willing to
make ,enmass, on it's own.

Rationing could force a redefinition of the political priorites
away from war to infastructure in time ,I believe, since there
is historical evidence (WWII) that rationing works.

Go grab a book or two about the ancient history of the 1970s, and read about fuel rationing at that time.

The two places I have lived in the last year are an interesting study
in socio-economic dynamics and attitudes regarding fuel usage.
In Vermont, people do not have the expendable cash to waste driving
around. They more often than not work two crappy jobs that they might
have to drive 25 miles 1w to. So, they use only the gas they need to use.
Here in West Palm, FL., gratuitous, selfish, overindulgence is the norm.
A car is a right for any 16 year old to joyride in and SUVs carom in and out of
shopping malls with deadly aplomb. People sit in Escalades and let them idle for 20
minutes at a time while the spouse runs into the quicky-mart that is
1/2 mile from the condo. Its this attitude of entitlement that needs to be broken.
The people who are contributing to this problem the most are the ones who can
afford gas at almost any price. If we raise the price of gas we are only hurting the
people who already suffer. Im all for rationing. Real WWII style not fake '70's
style.

The vast majority of people want to drive, and they will do so until conditions make it unreasonably uncomfortable to do so. Eventually, a lot of people will opt out of driving, given the geometric oil-demand curve and the flat oil-supply curve; in the not-too-distant future, only the rich will drive everywhere they go. But it's very silly to impose such conditions artificially from above.

If you follow the trends, big oil in time of problems will jack prices and do things for not much other reason then to see what people will do. A big storm hits a few gas stations jump $.50 then drop to normal. 6 months later your just short of that $.50 raise for no reason this time.

I say this because when New Orleans was hit a few years ago a lot of stations (mainly truck stops in the south east USA) started fuel rationing that lasted for several days. Most where limiting gas to 10 gallons and diesel to 50 gallons at over $6.00 each (Most semi trucks need 125+gallons a day to run uninterrupted). So if history repeats its self then fuel rationing will happen again.

This is like your wet dream isn't it? NEver happen. No politician that ever wants to be re elected will even consider this. The coutry will be run into the ground before this happens.

Hate to inform you of this but, they're just gonna keep working on stuff like this:
http://www.greatfallstribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080411/NEWS01/804110316

They found 4+ billion barrels of recoverable oil in the U.S.

I would welcome coupon rationing. Since we use very little fuel, we'd have surplus to trade.

In the 70s, my entrepeneurial cousins made money selling donuts and coffee up and down lines of cars waiting for gas--they just went and bought stuff at the local donut shop for retail and then marked it up to sell to them waiting in cars. Brilliant!

I would welcome coupon rationing. Since we use very little fuel, we'd have surplus to trade.

In the 70s, my entrepeneurial cousins made money selling donuts and coffee up and down lines of cars waiting for gas--they just went and bought stuff at the local donut shop for retail and then marked it up to sell to them waiting in cars. Brilliant!

These days you would probably be arrested for price gouging.

Hate to inform you of this but, they're just gonna keep working on stuff like this:
http://www.greatfallstribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080411/NEWS01/804110316

They found 4+ billion barrels of recoverable oil in the U.S.

And the world uses 30 every year. What's your point?

LOL. I remember the last time we tried fuel rationing.

http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t049/T049147A.jpg

You'll have to handle it a whole lot better than last time, and give people a good justification or they'll be getting very self-righteous and angry.

I lived though the 70's gas "crisis" and made it to work everyday. What many don't get
is that America HAD a chance to use the Arab oil embargo to wean the public/business
off of using oil as we do. Instead the gov't pandered to big business and the publics
whining over the inevitable pain that's going to happen when the oil supplies do dry
up.

America missed a golden opportuity to both re-educate the public about oil use and start
unraveling the damage that a suburban way of life has caused in the 70's. So we get to
do it now............

A better way is use technology

Put GPS on every auto.
As soon as they go over the speed limit anywhere. (2mph or more) ticket
Don't stop at the stop sign/ red light. Ticket
Ration where the driver can drive if driver fails this ticket. (you could make them use only certian roads or freeways this could free up congestion)
Charge them for every mile they drive in what they drive and where they drive (Suv, time, and downtown etc.)
Charge them for public parking via GPS.
Put crash avoidance on cars so you could never get closer than 10 feet with out the car going in Nuteral.


Instead of fees you would be subject to community service.

That is how you discourage motoring.

Better mandate those GPSs for bikes, too, if they're going to be used for most of the reasons you give...

A better way is use technology

Put GPS on every auto.
As soon as they go over the speed limit anywhere. (2mph or more) ticket
Don't stop at the stop sign/ red light. Ticket
Ration where the driver can drive if driver fails this ticket. (you could make them use only certian roads or freeways this could free up congestion)
Charge them for every mile they drive in what they drive and where they drive (Suv, time, and downtown etc.)
Charge them for public parking via GPS.
Put crash avoidance on cars so you could never get closer than 10 feet with out the car going in Nuteral.


Instead of fees you would be subject to community service.

That is how you discourage motoring.


jeepers h. christmas! I hope you are kidding. What ever happened to the free market? It works. People are already driving less. They have news stories on that very subject every night. Why jump to these draconian, expensive, super intrusive tactics when you can do nothing and achieve the same results?

If you are just talking about congestion, I've already offered up a couple ideas on this board that wouldn't cost any money at all, wouldn't require a governmental rectal exam every time you turned your key, and would probably reduce congestion by 25%.

Hate to inform you of this but, they're just gonna keep working on stuff like this:
http://www.greatfallstribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080411/NEWS01/804110316

They found 4+ billion barrels of recoverable oil in the U.S.

That sounds like a lot, until of course, you realize that world consumption is hovering around 85 million barrels per day. So even if they do manage to recover 4+ billion barrels, it will be less than 2 months worth of oil.

If you want to look at fuel rationing that worked, go back to World War II. Canada and the U.S. had rationing imposed with few abuses to the system. It was done to conserve rubber, not fuel, by the way.

The rationing at its strictest worked out to a weekly allotment of three gallons (11.4 litres in the U.S. or 13.6 litres in Canada because of the larger Imperial gallon.) This kind of fuel consumption would put anyone into the car-light category. Doctors, politicians and those who needed their vehicles for transportation of goods or commuting to war-related industries could use more fuel, provided they had the appropriate permits.

The system worked, but it took place in the 1940s, a completely different era. People supported the war effort and as a result, could get behind initiatives such as rationing. Today, our societies are a little more chaotic and individualistic. I doubt rationing would be accepted today in the same way as it was in the 1940s.

Hate to inform you of this but, they're just gonna keep working on stuff like this:
http://www.greatfallstribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080411/NEWS01/804110316

They found 4+ billion barrels of recoverable oil in the U.S.

Here are a few quotes from that link that shows we are just grasping at straws now.

the U.S. Department of Energy stated in a report last year. "This relatively new and important oil field is difficult to produce and requires cutting-edge technology for economic production."

"All oil fields decline over time, and it looks as though this peaked in November 2006," said Findley of Prospector Oil Inc. of Billings. "So people need to be aware this is a field in decline. However, there's a long production time remaining."

Jim Ehrets, a Denver-based geologist with Headington Oil Co. of Dallas, said it costs about $5 million to drill a well tapping the middle of the Bakken, meaning companies need crude prices of at least $50 a barrel to make it economical. Even with crude prices double that, as they are now, "there still is a ton of risk," he said.

Better mandate those GPSs for bikes, too, if they're going to be used for most of the reasons you give...

We don't have seatbelts, insurance, airbags, DLs, steros, speakers, car headlights, brake lights, speedometers, AC, ABS, For a reason and in Idaho you yield to stop signs and stop at red lights. Why would a bicycle need a GPS for the above purposes that I stated?

We have a war on Terror and a War on Drugs, Why not a war on motorists. Your free market has thousands of people spending decades in prison for drugs. The terror has given all your rights up and tortures people.

We don't have seatbelts, insurance, airbags, DLs, steros, speakers, car headlights, brake lights, speedometers, AC, ABS, For a reason and in Idaho you yield to stop signs and stop at red lights. Why would a bicycle need a GPS for the above purposes that I stated?
We have way too many unpredictable and irresponsible cyclists, in every community. These are the ones who run stop signs and red lights, ride on the wrong side of the road or on the sidewalk, don't bother to signal and weave in traffic. Because of them, too many motorists say they don't like cyclists.

While I believe in cycling, I would also like to see some traffic enforcement for cyclists who ride dangerously or carelessly.

When the cycling community takes itself seriously, others will also take us seriously.

If you want to look at fuel rationing that worked, go back to World War II. Canada and the U.S. had rationing imposed with few abuses to the system. It was done to conserve rubber, not fuel, by the way.

The rationing at its strictest worked out to a weekly allotment of three gallons (11.4 litres in the U.S. or 13.6 litres in Canada because of the larger Imperial gallon.) This kind of fuel consumption would put anyone into the car-light category. Doctors, politicians and those who needed their vehicles for transportation of goods or commuting to war-related industries could use more fuel, provided they had the appropriate permits.

The system worked, but it took place in the 1940s, a completely different era. People supported the war effort and as a result, could get behind initiatives such as rationing. Today, our societies are a little more chaotic and individualistic. I doubt rationing would be accepted today in the same way as it was in the 1940s.

The population was also smaller too. However, rationing WILL take place either by price
or by gov't edict but it will happen. Gov't edict by issuing stamps based on need will make
for a softer landing for the average citizen by forcing politicians to address mass transportation
needs as well as bike friendly laws that make it safer (nothing is perfect) to ride on our roads
and byways until cars get fewer by several million. Ration stamps will also work to change the
publics mind set on how best to use their oil ration share the best. No more runs for one item at the
story or cruising just for fun (unless it's on a bike).

Not to mention that transportation to the factories was by government bus.

CE

We are doing just that with our crews. The company has several 9-15 passenger vans that are used to transport the crews from a central location and back every 2 weeks (normal job rotation is 9 days on, 5 days off) It was started as a convenience for the company and has fast become a fringe benefit for the crews. Having to drive your own vehicle 250 miles to and from a job site every couple weeks gets expensive very quickly.

Aaron:)

I liked Mayor Bloomberg's congestion pricing plan, but it seems the oil and gas lobby did not:

http://noimpactman.typepad.com/blog/.:(

I lived though the 70's gas "crisis" and made it to work everyday. What many don't get
is that America HAD a chance to use the Arab oil embargo to wean the public/business
off of using oil as we do. Instead the gov't pandered to big business and the publics
whining over the inevitable pain that's going to happen when the oil supplies do dry
up.

America missed a golden opportuity to both re-educate the public about oil use and start
unraveling the damage that a suburban way of life has caused in the 70's. So we get to
do it now............

Yes, I've lived through it too. But does anyone believe that in todays times - the "I don't give a rats ass about anyone else" - attitudes will change? People didn't change then, except to buy cars that got better fuel mileage. They still had to have their cars and drive when and where they wanted. The only major change was the death of the muscle car.


A better way is use technology

Put GPS on every auto.
As soon as they go over the speed limit anywhere. (2mph or more) ticket
Don't stop at the stop sign/ red light. Ticket
Ration where the driver can drive if driver fails this ticket. (you could make them use only certian roads or freeways this could free up congestion)
Charge them for every mile they drive in what they drive and where they drive (Suv, time, and downtown etc.)
Charge them for public parking via GPS.
Put crash avoidance on cars so you could never get closer than 10 feet with out the car going in Nuteral.


Instead of fees you would be subject to community service.

That is how you discourage motoring.

Put GPS on every car. Might work in NEW cars. But to easy to disable. To expensive for mandatory retrofit to older cars. Low income people wouldn't be able to drive any more.

2 mph over the speed limit - invasion of privacy; accuracy of units. Why do cops not stop you now if you're only going <5 mph over - court challenges and time expended for every ticket.

I've dealt with GPS systems in trucks...... try explaining that your in Pennsylvania when the system says your in North Carolina. And if you want to hide where you are - just put a metal can over the antenna. And yeah, you'd have to install the expensive ($3500) units ($35 per month service charge) that we have in trucks in order to have two-way continuous data streams necessary to do this. Oh, and the kicker is..... it WON'T do what your $150 unit does. No graphics, no maps.

Charge them for driving???? What do you think the fuel tax is that you pay now?

Public parking fees on top of the meter? Death to downtown businesses - again.

Puts the car in neutral? The most DANGEROUS suggestion. Then you can just watch the guy (that disabled 'their' system and is going 80 mph) rear end you instead of try and get away from it.

"Yes, I've lived through it too. But does anyone believe that in todays times - the "I don't give a rats ass about anyone else" - attitudes will change?"

This is the main reason I feel rationing it the best,and only choice, to force the pardigm
shift both at the political level as well as at the personal level. It ain't perfect but it will
get the ball rolling from a dead stop where it is now.

"Yes, I've lived through it too. But does anyone believe that in todays times - the "I don't give a rats ass about anyone else" - attitudes will change?"

This is the main reason I feel rationing it the best,and only choice, to force the pardigm
shift both at the political level as well as at the personal level. It ain't perfect but it will
get the ball rolling from a dead stop where it is now.

You missed the next sentence (or chose to ignore it):


People didn't change then, except to buy cars that got better fuel mileage. They still had to have their cars and drive when and where they wanted.

And, we had no choice about rationing then. We were being embargoed. Now, it would be political suicide to even suggest rationing.

Go grab a book or two about the ancient history of the 1970s, and read about fuel rationing at that time.

Now, now, I was alive and cognent back then! Are you implying I am ancient... :rolleyes:

IF it is desirable for the government to get any more involved in this; the best thing they could do is stop the subsidies that keep the price artificially low at the pump for private use vehicles. Let the price be the real price as determined by recovery and refining costs, shipping, market demands, etc.

I wouldn't have a problem with giving some kind of tax break to commercial use.

Then they should push alternative fuels and their continued development; bio-D, CNG, electric, etc., and means of transport; mass transit, bicycle, etc., to include tax breaks for the people that use them, and for companies whose employees use them.

The company in Japan that my father-in-law worked for before he retired, subsidized mass transit fees for employees. Because it cost the company money, driving to work at that company was grounds for dismissal. I think this is a great idea and would work here in areas where mass transit is already established, if the tax breaks for companies were worked right.

Now, none of this will work if John Q. Public doesn't understand why these measures are being implemented, so the first step will have to be education. This can be partially implemented in the form of PSAs, but it still won't happen overnight. We're talking two to three generations to really get this going.

Too much government involvement, such as tracking people's every move by GPS, etc., will only cause a public backlash against any conservation measures and the politicians who support them.

And anyway, GPS ain't all that. Not even the stuff the military uses.

Sorry to break it to some of you. The rationing that occurred during WWII, was not because we were short of any one material... oil, rubber, metal. It was done in order to maintain public support for an on-going, high casualty war. It worked like a charm. People conserved as they believed it was for the greater good. Supplies were plentiful available, but an uneducated public, with lack of communication technology all helped to maintain the rationing.

Rationing today would be more difficult to impose because of how easy it is to communicate with others around the world. The government can't keep the lid on information as easily anymore.

Cheers

I remember rationing. It sucked.

The only answer worth a damn is the Carbon Tax.

The ideal solution is take the money from the Carbon Tax and invest it in alternative energy. Denmark did this and has been quite successful.

you can't legislate stupid. You have to educate.

Changing the car culture of America will be extremely difficult and that culture is spreading around the world to various degrees. Cars are seen as a status symbol and not just in the USA.

Urban development in the USA is making mass transit difficult to implement efficiently.

Any changes to force people to change will almost always hurt the poor first and hard.

Are you guys NUTS? We're not going to run out of oil, we're going to keep burning it, more and more every day, until something cheaper and better comes out of the lab. Why? Because the jerk that comes up with the cheaper and better alternative is going to be rich. They didn't stop whaling because they ran out of whales, but rather because they found a cheaper and better source for the things they were using whale oil for. We won't stop drilling because we run out of wells, but rather because we'll develop a good biological catalyst for turning switchgrass into ethanol, and it'll be cheaper to grow energy than to dig it up.

Or someone will get smart with hydrogen storage and delivery systems, and we'll all be buying new cars that produce water as a byproduct, and the energy for generating the hydrogen will come from wind, or solar, or atomic energy, because it'll be cheaper to use them than to burn coal (eventually).

Should we ration fuels and try to throw a big brake on the capitalistic society that we're living in? HELL NO. The reason that we're so successful is because of those over-consuming people in palm beach who feel they're entitled to more for less, instead of those unfortunate few in vermont who struggle to get by. Capitalism isn't a success because it allows for people to toil away heroically and feel good about themselves but rather because it rewards those that come up with the new, shiny, cheaper, better. We won't get out of the jam we're in by having the government tell us to use less gas but rather by having someone else tell us that we don't have to use ANY gas, and that we can be just as happy and self-indulgant as we always have dreamed of being.

And at some point down the line, when we as a culture discover that it makes more sense to grow UP instead of OUT and finally get cities that actually work, with public transit that's better and faster and cheaper than owning a car, we'll do away with them for inner-city use altogether.

The reason the car is popular is because it's fundamentally better than a horse, and the next thing to come along won't be a crippled car but rather one that's fundamentally better than what we've got now.

Are you guys NUTS? We're not going to run out of oil, we're going to keep burning it, more and more every day, until something cheaper and better comes out of the lab. Why? Because the jerk that comes up with the cheaper and better alternative is going to be rich. They didn't stop whaling because they ran out of whales, but rather because they found a cheaper and better source for the things they were using whale oil for. We won't stop drilling because we run out of wells, but rather because we'll develop a good biological catalyst for turning switchgrass into ethanol, and it'll be cheaper to grow energy than to dig it up.
But right now, we don't have the cheaper and better alternative. Electricity is great for stationary structures but it has drawbacks for transportation. Ethanol requires land which would otherwise be used for food production. Nuclear energy has issues surrounding wastes. Hydrogen storage is still years away from coming on line in any real scale. The cheapest and most practical transportation fuel we have right now is petroleum-based.

We won't get out of the jam we're in by having the government tell us to use less gas but rather by having someone else tell us that we don't have to use ANY gas, and that we can be just as happy and self-indulgant as we always have dreamed of being.
Once again, this can only work if we have a practical fuel alternative, something we don't have right now.

And at some point down the line, when we as a culture discover that it makes more sense to grow UP instead of OUT and finally get cities that actually work, with public transit that's better and faster and cheaper than owning a car, we'll do away with them for inner-city use altogether.
I agree with you on this one.

Are you guys NUTS? We're not going to run out of oil, we're going to keep burning it, more and more every day, until something cheaper and better comes out of the lab. Why? Because the jerk that comes up with the cheaper and better alternative is going to be rich. They didn't stop whaling because they ran out of whales, but rather because they found a cheaper and better source for the things they were using whale oil for. We won't stop drilling because we run out of wells, but rather because we'll develop a good biological catalyst for turning switchgrass into ethanol, and it'll be cheaper to grow energy than to dig it up.

Or someone will get smart with hydrogen storage and delivery systems, and we'll all be buying new cars that produce water as a byproduct, and the energy for generating the hydrogen will come from wind, or solar, or atomic energy, because it'll be cheaper to use them than to burn coal (eventually).

Should we ration fuels and try to throw a big brake on the capitalistic society that we're living in? HELL NO. The reason that we're so successful is because of those over-consuming people in palm beach who feel they're entitled to more for less, instead of those unfortunate few in vermont who struggle to get by. Capitalism isn't a success because it allows for people to toil away heroically and feel good about themselves but rather because it rewards those that come up with the new, shiny, cheaper, better. We won't get out of the jam we're in by having the government tell us to use less gas but rather by having someone else tell us that we don't have to use ANY gas, and that we can be just as happy and self-indulgant as we always have dreamed of being.

And at some point down the line, when we as a culture discover that it makes more sense to grow UP instead of OUT and finally get cities that actually work, with public transit that's better and faster and cheaper than owning a car, we'll do away with them for inner-city use altogether.

The reason the car is popular is because it's fundamentally better than a horse, and the next thing to come along won't be a crippled car but rather one that's fundamentally better than what we've got now.

The faith that some of you have in science and engineering is touching, really. But, you can't break the laws of physics my boy, even Scotty couldn't!

We are tapped into a huge gas tank of fuel - so ready it burns if you light it. Water doesn't burn when you stick a match into it. Hydrogen taken from water requires first to separate it and that takes - you guessed it, energy.

Biofuel is cool, and to grow a LOT of biofuel takes, you guessed it, energy. You can't keep taking from the land (we have been doing that too) without putting something back - and what we are putting back takes, you guessed it, energy.

Oil was very, very easy to get to, very easy to use. It was stored energy. Now the easy stuff is going away.

I hope, I truly do, that we find alternatives for our current rate of consumption. But, doesn't it bother you that the CEO of Shell has said we are seven (7) years away from Peak Oil and to this date we have NOTHING?

Be afraid, I am an engineer and I deal a lot with scientist. We are. Only the ignorant public thinks we are gods, no matter how much we screw up the next release of software. :rolleyes:

I have noticed a tendency now that people are so sophisticate as to not to believe in gods to start to believe in other things irrationally. Most of the solutions that the average person suggest are modifications of a perpetual motion machine.

Are you guys NUTS? We're not going to run out of oil, we're going to keep burning it, more and more every day, until something cheaper and better comes out of the lab. Why? Because the jerk that comes up with the cheaper and better alternative is going to be rich. They didn't stop whaling because they ran out of whales, but rather because they found a cheaper and better source for the things they were using whale oil for. We won't stop drilling because we run out of wells, but rather because we'll develop a good biological catalyst for turning switchgrass into ethanol, and it'll be cheaper to grow energy than to dig it up.

Or someone will get smart with hydrogen storage and delivery systems, and we'll all be buying new cars that produce water as a byproduct, and the energy for generating the hydrogen will come from wind, or solar, or atomic energy, because it'll be cheaper to use them than to burn coal (eventually).

Should we ration fuels and try to throw a big brake on the capitalistic society that we're living in? HELL NO. The reason that we're so successful is because of those over-consuming people in palm beach who feel they're entitled to more for less, instead of those unfortunate few in vermont who struggle to get by. Capitalism isn't a success because it allows for people to toil away heroically and feel good about themselves but rather because it rewards those that come up with the new, shiny, cheaper, better. We won't get out of the jam we're in by having the government tell us to use less gas but rather by having someone else tell us that we don't have to use ANY gas, and that we can be just as happy and self-indulgant as we always have dreamed of being.

And at some point down the line, when we as a culture discover that it makes more sense to grow UP instead of OUT and finally get cities that actually work, with public transit that's better and faster and cheaper than owning a car, we'll do away with them for inner-city use altogether.

The reason the car is popular is because it's fundamentally better than a horse, and the next thing to come along won't be a crippled car but rather one that's fundamentally better than what we've got now.

Part of the problem is the oil can run out. You can lookup the Hubert Oil Peak for most of the details.
The problem is not that oil is going to run out, but that people will not be able to increase the rate oil is being pumped out of the ground (either due to production losses or not finding new fields etc). Most of the major producing field (Ghawar, Burgen for example) are in production decline. any new fields discovered have to start by making up for these production losses before increasing the global oil supply. Once the rate of discovery is outpaced by the rate of decline, we'll have less oil to work with every year and the prices will climb faster.