Foo - Deal Breaker...

A lady I've never seen before came into the shop this morning and asks if we have a bike box because she wants to ship a MTB to Massachusetts.

I said, "Yes...they're $15".

She says, "Let me go check..." and walks out, then they drive off.

Right across the parking lot the UPS store charges $20 for a box plus packing materials. Is there some unwritten law that bike shops have to give the boxes away for free?

AIs there some unwritten law that bike shops have to give the boxes away for free?

No, they just do it that way. No law needed.
Ive known lots of people who ship bikes and never known them to be
charged for what usually ends up in the recycle bin.

Try to think Random Act of Kindness :)

I wish more people would think Random Act of Kindness.

We never used to charge for boxes until people would take them from the rear of the shop, dump the trash inside into the parking lot and drive off. Now we have to store them, hence the charge.

For the $15 I do make sure they have the proper dropout and axle protectors, plus whatever packing material, zip-ties, etc they need.

A lady I've never seen before came into the shop this morning and asks if we have a bike box because she wants to ship a MTB to Massachusetts.

I said, "Yes...they're $15".

She says, "Let me go check..." and walks out, then they drive off.

Right across the parking lot the UPS store charges $20 for a box plus packing materials. Is there some unwritten law that bike shops have to give the boxes away for free?

is there some written rule that states that bike shops should sell their garbage?

is there some written rule that states that bike shops should sell their garbage?

Yes, it's called the Law of supply and demand. :D

They can either go across the parking lot and pay $5 more or drive 60 miles and hope the nearest other shop gives boxes away.

Also, if it has a use...can it really be called garbage? We pack and ship bikes for customers and set some aside for that purpose. If we give them all away and have a bike to ship, then we have to go pay $20. Fair is fair.

Yes, it's called the Law of supply and demand. :D

They can either go across the parking lot and pay $5 more or drive 60 miles and hope the nearest other shop gives boxes away.

with that endearing attitude to customers, i think i'd start calling the shop that's 60 miles away my LBS.

with that endearing attitude to customers, i think i'd start calling the shop that's 60 miles away my LBS.

The shop 60 miles away charges double what we do for a tuneup.

I can see by your responses that free boxes are indeed an expectation of a bike shop. What I wonder at is why the same expectation is not put upon the UPS store. When they sell out of $20 boxes, they call us.

If a bike shop charged me 10 cents for a bike box, I would never shop there again. You can reason why you have costs associated with them or whatever, I am just saying from my point of view you are gouging me.

You say that if you leave them out back, the trash gets dumped and they take the boxes. I thought everyone was separating trash from recyclables these days. Why haven't you been?


Nearly 20 years ago, I was about 25 miles from home and noticed a screw missing from downtube shifter. I popped into the nearest bike shop went to the back and the mechanic looked through his spare parts can and came up with one, flipped it to me and said "have a nice day'. Just then the owner came up and insisted I pay for it, she even looked the part number in the Shimano catalog and charged me $2. I gave her the $2 cause I wanted to get home but I told everybody i knew. I posted things on BBS's. I got it in a local bike newsletter.

That shop went out of business 6 months later. Certainly not what she did to me personally but that same attitude probably didn't sit well with others.

So,keep charging $15 for your trash. it is a pretty safe bet that lady will no longer come to your shop. Do you have any idea how many people she is going to tell?

The shop 60 miles away charges double what we do for a tuneup.

I can see by your responses that free boxes are indeed an expectation of a bike shop. What I wonder at is why the same expectation is not put upon the UPS store. When they sell out of $20 boxes, they call us.

does ups sell used boxes that would end up in the scrap pile? didn't think so.

we keep them separate but to put the bike in the box is 50$

does ups sell used boxes that would end up in the scrap pile? didn't think so.

When they get boxes from us, yes they do.

When they get boxes from us, yes they do.

do you charge them $15 for the boxes as well?


btw - why is this in foo?

We gave them away. The ones we didn't give away ended up in the recycling van once a week anyway.

btw - why is this in foo?

Because it's really about the psychology of the thing. All I wondered about was why there is a perception that something of obvious value for shipping a bike must be given free of charge. You've convinced me...I'll give boxes away for free and double our tuneup rates. :p

Last summer I had my LBS ship my bike to enable me to do a charity ride. I don't recall a charge for the box, but I happily paid a handling charge, above the shipping rate, to have my bike professionally packed with proper protection. I was very happy to do so.

If a bike shop charged me 10 cents for a bike box, I would never shop there again...

Wow, that's an amazing story!
You singlehandedly started a campaign to defame a shop because they charged you $2 for a part that fixed your bike, and they made sure to charge you the correct price? To me that doesn't sound like gouging at all, but I respect that your perspective is your own.

Be that as it may, I won't be doubling the price of our tuneups. My apologies if my answer there was a bit facetious, but part of my job is to make sure the shop is profitable for the owner, and it was his policy to charge for boxes...I was merely doing my job. We will still set aside the undamaged and usable boxes for the packing and shipping jobs we get (so we don't end up having to pay UPS the $20...it's happened. Botto, I'm not sure what they gave for our boxes, it was credited to our account), but thanks to the responses in this thread, public opine obviously says that bike boxes are free...when they come from the bike shop, not UPS. I'll just say we don't have any other than what is in the recycling pile, help yourself...just please, don't leave a mess.

A lady I've never seen before came into the shop this morning and asks if we have a bike box because she wants to ship a MTB to Massachusetts.

I said, "Yes...they're $15".

She says, "Let me go check..." and walks out, then they drive off.

Right across the parking lot the UPS store charges $20 for a box plus packing materials. Is there some unwritten law that bike shops have to give the boxes away for free?

The two times I shipped bikes I went into the dumpster behind the a bike shop here, and in phoenix, took a box for free, and packed it myself.

15$ for storage? Yea.. no.

I really don't blame the lady, I would have laughed in your face.

The shop 60 miles away charges double what we do for a tuneup.

I can see by your responses that free boxes are indeed an expectation of a bike shop. What I wonder at is why the same expectation is not put upon the UPS store. When they sell out of $20 boxes, they call us.

...because at UPS they sell brand new boxes for SHIPPING, they are a shipping company.

Is you're LBS primarily a shipping company? Are the boxes you normally throw away used? Most likely yes. They are garbage/recyclables, who'd want to pay for your trash? I can think of 5 bike shops within 10 minutes of me that has tons of those boxes in the dumpster.

It's not an expectation. But it just seems nitpicky to think I can't get a free piece of cardboard.

Another thing you don't even think of is the effect that has on the customer. Last time I got screwed by the LBS I always frequented, summit bicycles, I stopped shopping there. I dropped easily 50-100 a month in there, now.... nada. There are so many bike shop choices, one bad experience or ahole employee.... yea I'll take myself elsewhere.

Because it's really about the psychology of the thing. All I wondered about was why there is a perception that something of obvious value for shipping a bike must be given free of charge. You've convinced me...I'll give boxes away for free and double our tuneup rates. :p

If you're business relies on revenue from recyclable boxes you're going to need to up alot more than just tuneups. :p

Wow, three posts just chock full of helpful info. Thanks. I hope that didn't put you out too much.

I wish more people would think Random Act of Kindness.

We never used to charge for boxes until people would take them from the rear of the shop, dump the trash inside into the parking lot and drive off. Now we have to store them, hence the charge.

For the $15 I do make sure they have the proper dropout and axle protectors, plus whatever packing material, zip-ties, etc they need.

Why not just take a razor to the box and make it useless if this is such a problem? I wouldn't charge $15 for a box because i certainly would never pay for it...not to mention, it's going into the garbage.

I know LBS's run on tight margins but crikes...

Performance gave me the box to ship my Leader...free of charge. How nice of 'em :)

Lastly, if you had never seen her i'm assuming you're indicating that she wasn't a customer. What a good way to win a new customer but to charge her $15 for a piece of garbage that is over priced when it isn't garbage (My local UPS store wanted to charge me $25...talk about a markup)

Because it's really about the psychology of the thing. All I wondered about was why there is a perception that something of obvious value for shipping a bike must be given free of charge. You've convinced me...I'll give boxes away for free and double our tuneup rates. :p

There isn't very much psychology at play here...you are charing more than what she was willing to pay. It isn't much deeper than that.

with that endearing attitude to customers, i think i'd start calling the shop that's 60 miles away my LBS.

Personally, if my LBS will pack up everything so it's safe for shipping, I'll look past that $15.

It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me if they're willing to do the services the OP said they do. It would be if it were just a used box.

Also, if it has a use...can it really be called garbage? We pack and ship bikes for customers and set some aside for that purpose. If we give them all away and have a bike to ship, then we have to go pay $20. Fair is fair.
Wait. Is the packing of the bikes/materials included in the 15$ for the box?

Wait. Is the packing of the bikes/materials included in the 15$ for the box?

If I read the first post correctly, yes.

If I read the first post correctly, yes.

You're reading wrong...

There isn't very much psychology at play here...you are charing more than what she was willing to pay. It isn't much deeper than that.

Agreed, and you'd think that'd be the end of it. If they don't want to buy a box, it's their choice, but apparently it's a horrific enough crime to start a campaign to shut a shop down...even for a dime.

I knew this would be an issue with a few people which is why I posted it. I can't say I agree with the policy completely, but there are a few issues I see as valid.

It's garbage/recycled: True, but the boxes at the UPS store are made from recycled materials too. How important is it for the box to be made of virgin materials when it's likely to be partially or completely destroyed in shipping? At least our boxes are designed to ship bikes in and usually are sized to avoid additional shipping charges.

They have no value: The boxes we do set aside still have value in that they are useful for packing and shipping bikes, a job we perform regularly. If they had no value at all, no one would be asking for them. If we gave them all away, we'd have to charge paying customers extra for new boxes...which would be met with equal resistance.

The UPS store is in the packing/shipping business, so they can charge and we can't: Do you really think the UPS store never reuses a box or packing materials? Would it be so bad if they did and still charged for it? Do they do a much better job of packing a bicycle than a shop does to justify charging more?


Believe me, I share the "wealth" all the time, but it goes largely unnoticed. If people already have the outlook that all LBS's do is gouge, giving them a box isn't going to change their mind. It's seen as an entitlement, "the least we can do", not as a gift.

I think it's already been firmly established that this expectation is carved in stone, immutable and unchangeable. There's no choice but to alter the policy and concede to the inevitable. I still do find it intriguing that compared to other businesses, the LBS seems to be under much more scrutiny about these issues. I wonder how ranchers get away with the scandalous crime of charging for manure.

does ups sell used boxes that would end up in the scrap pile? didn't think so.


When they get boxes from us, yes they do.

I would not want to be the person at that store selling used boxes to the customers, UPS doesn't even sell their trucks when they are done with them(scrapped&recycled), at least in working condition.

I would not want to be the person at that store selling used boxes to the customers, UPS doesn't even sell their trucks when they are done with them(scrapped&recycled), at least in working condition.
The store is independent. They ship via DHL, FedEx, ground carriers and USPS besides just UPS.

Agreed, and you'd think that'd be the end of it. If they don't want to buy a box, it's their choice, but apparently it's a horrific enough crime to start a campaign to shut a shop down...even for a dime.



What are you talking about?

Wow, that's an amazing story!
You singlehandedly started a campaign to defame a shop because they charged you $2 for a part that fixed your bike, and they made sure to charge you the correct price? To me that doesn't sound like gouging at all, but I respect that your perspective is your own.

<snip>


No, the mechanic pulled it out of parts bucket, you know the can where odd bolts and nuts end up. It probably came off a bike that upgraded from downtube shifters to brifters. I feel the owner was wrong by charging full retail price for a used bolt that was removed from some other customer's bike. If she had to order it for me, than absolutely, she deserves list price and I would have happily paid it.

What are you talking about?

I was referring to Mr Thompson's post equating charging even a dime for a box as an affront to a customer equivalent to his experience with a shop charging him $2 for a $2 part, when of course it should be free. The part he doesn't understand is that I would've been the guy flipping him the part and wishing him a good day.

EDIT: And I see his stance is the same recycled = worthless position. If only that were true on eBay.

Boxes are everywhere, i bet she went and found one for free. That's the difference between a box and ebay.

I was referring to Mr Thompson's post equating charging even a dime for a box as an affront to a customer equivalent to his experience with a shop charging him $2 for a $2 part, when of course it should be free. The part he doesn't understand is that I would've been the guy flipping him the part and wishing him a good day.

EDIT: And I see his stance is the same recycled = worthless position. If only that were true on eBay.

Yep, people sell spare used single nuts and bolts on ebay.

Yep, people sell spare used single nuts and bolts on ebay.

Not long ago I did a search for Cook Bros crank caps. New they were $10, the auction was at $60 before I gave up and closed the window.

You completely missed the point of value. $2 to have the part right now to fix a bike has to be one of the cheapest repairs ever, especially if we're talking about parts no longer manufactured. I have a bin of old parts at the shop for that exact purpose, same as when I was maintaining my own race bikes because some parts go out of production and are no longer available. Granted, I wouldn't have charged a "new bolt price" for an old one, but the shipping alone on a single new part would exceed $2. Be realistic. The time to search for the correct bolt and the experience to know where to look wasn't even accounted for.

If I were in the same position, I'd have given the wrench a tip.

The bottom line is that people for some reason these days expect the kind of relationship they have with the bike shop employees to be that of a good friend. I spend my money here, you do me favors and give me freebies. Lots of people have this attitude. I think it's because of the fact any or most parts can be found online for cheaper, and service can be taken elsewhere very easily.

Boxes are everywhere, i bet she went and found one for free. That's the difference between a box and ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-2-Short-Comic-Cardboard-Storage-Boxes-VERY-STRONG_W0QQitemZ110241007730QQihZ001QQcategoryZ99960QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If she did, more power to her.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-2-Short-Comic-Cardboard-Storage-Boxes-VERY-STRONG_W0QQitemZ110241007730QQihZ001QQcategoryZ99960QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If she did, more power to her.

That's a specialty box that you wouldn't be able to go find in the garbage.

That's a specialty box that you wouldn't be able to go find in the garbage.

Unless you went to a bike shop? Your point?

Unless you went to a bike shop? Your point?

Or the back of a comic shop. It's not my business, do what you want man. Hope those $15 boxes make you rich.

You don't owe anyone anything, but neither do they really. $15 for otherwise garbage bound boxes makes you look stingy.

If a bike shop charged me 10 cents for a bike box, I would never shop there again.

Ditto x10

Make sure to resell all the packing materials that were originally within the boxes too.

I was referring to Mr Thompson's post equating charging even a dime for a box as an affront to a customer equivalent to his experience with a shop charging him $2 for a $2 part, when of course it should be free. The part he doesn't understand is that I would've been the guy flipping him the part and wishing him a good day.

I think most would, except this particular bike shop owner thought it best to make $2 off me. I don't mind the $2, it is just I felt gouged. I never returned.



EDIT: And I see his stance is the same recycled = worthless position. If only that were true on eBay.

Wordbiker, I am not trying to convince you I am right. I don't even question your value of the box or a recycled bolt. I am just telling you how I, as a consumer, view things. Clearly I am wrong but I won't be shopping at a shop that sells the boxes you receive with the bikes. You can spend your time convincing me (or the world) that you are right and I am wrong. But where does that get you?

Hoe much would it cost me to get one of those plastic things that goes on the end of a new fork?

$15 for otherwise garbage bound boxes makes you look stingy.

Doesn't anyone get that these boxes were never bound for the dumpster? Knock yourself out with the boxes that didn't make it unscathed through shipping (which is a surprising majority) sitting in the recycle pile. The only boxes ever sold were those reserved for packing bikes for shipping, a $45 service. The "good" boxes are stored indoors in a retail space and are in essence "free" with the service.

Even with the sale of a box alone, that includes measuring the bike, selecting a box that fits the contents without incurring oversized charges, finding all the plastic protectors to fit the bike type, a fistful of zip ties and as much other packing material the customer wants. Given that this could take up to 1/2 hour of shop time, it's probably at or above costs, and nearly as much work as the full service.

Doesn't anyone get that these boxes were never bound for the dumpster? Knock yourself out with the boxes that didn't make it unscathed through shipping (which is a surprising majority) sitting in the recycle pile. The only boxes ever sold were those reserved for packing bikes for shipping, a $45 service. The "good" boxes are stored indoors in a retail space and are in essence "free" with the service.

Even with the sale of a box alone, that includes measuring the bike, selecting a box that fits the contents without incurring oversized charges, finding all the plastic protectors to fit the bike type, a fistful of zip ties and as much other packing material the customer wants. Given that this could take up to 1/2 hour of shop time, it's probably at or above costs, and nearly as much work as the full service.

+1

part of my job is to make sure the shop is profitable for the owner, and it was his policy to charge for boxes...I was merely doing my job.

I think the owner should consider how many $15 boxes he has sold VS how many people you've "never seen before" and will never see again because of policies like this.

Doesn't anyone get that these boxes were never bound for the dumpster? Knock yourself out with the boxes that didn't make it unscathed through shipping (which is a surprising majority) sitting in the recycle pile. The only boxes ever sold were those reserved for packing bikes for shipping, a $45 service. The "good" boxes are stored indoors in a retail space and are in essence "free" with the service.

Even with the sale of a box alone, that includes measuring the bike, selecting a box that fits the contents without incurring oversized charges, finding all the plastic protectors to fit the bike type, a fistful of zip ties and as much other packing material the customer wants. Given that this could take up to 1/2 hour of shop time, it's probably at or above costs, and nearly as much work as the full service.

Go read your original post.

I think most would, except this particular bike shop owner thought it best to make $2 off me. I don't mind the $2, it is just I felt gouged. I never returned.



Wordbiker, I am not trying to convince you I am right. I don't even question your value of the box or a recycled bolt. I am just telling you how I, as a consumer, view things. Clearly I am wrong but I won't be shopping at a shop that sells the boxes you receive with the bikes. You can spend your time convincing me (or the world) that you are right and I am wrong. But where does that get you?

Believe me, I do understand and I do value your input and viewpoint.

Perhaps I did take an emotional issue (who would've thought?) and stirred the pot, partially because I see the costs involved and am trying to run a profitable shop, but also to see where customers feel gouged or taken advantage of. I have learned much and do realize this is one issue that is not worth pursuing, nor is there any apparent defense for...I just had to put it out there and see what shook out.

I even understand Pheard's statement about being treated like a friend, and I do have many friends that come to the shop for friendly service and the little perks we do for our return customers. The tough part is that many customers come in to the shop and are only interested in the perks...much like offering free hotdogs and getting swamped with people that only want a free meal and leave immediately after. If they do come again, they're sometimes angry if the hotdogs aren't free.

I came to and still participate here at the forums to find out what the average consumer thinks about the LBS...then work to be what they want and not what they loathe. Hopefully my friends here will not remain angry with me and will take consolation that they do have an impact and that their voices are heard by me...and very appreciated. Most customers that do get upset and we never get feedback from them again, no chance to fix what's broken. At least here they aren't afraid to voice their concerns, and my feelings aren't hurt at all. I'd rather hear passionate honesty than silence any day.

Go read your original post.

I did Tim. We've moved since that policy was set and have a different storage arrangement and materials management strategy. The trash in the parking lot issue was taken care of, but the policy stayed. It's high time it changed too. Thanks for your responses.