Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Rene Herse Reintroduction

This probably seems like an advertisement, but I really don't have anything to do with the company. It's just very exciting to me to see the name brought back, especially with what appear to be very high quality and "true-to-the-name" bicycles.

Rene Herse Bicycles. (http://www.renehersebicycles.com/Index.htm) Don't forget to click on the pics.

Couldn't a picked a better builder than Mark Nobilette for the new Herse bikes. He learned the craft from THE MAN (Albert Eisentraut), and his work is just stunning. The new RH prototypes portend great things. If I could afford one, and was still into riding DF's...

Scott P
Bend, OR

Someone beat Bikes Direct to the marque?

Frame + fork + rack + stem = $6,000 (not chrome as in photos).

I saw the bike at the bike show in Portland at the NAHBS. I asked about the price of the complete bike as shown (chrome, integrated lights) and got a vague answer that suggested "If you have to ask, you can't afford it." After further pressing, the answer was, "around $10,000."

Maybe a Bikes Direct version wouldn't be so bad after all -- maybe it could be *just* a bit cheaper?

It "looks" like there are a lot of things to love about their bikes but not nearly enough to justify the huge price differential over other quite expensive, yet far less expensive, bikes. Of course, one can only glean so much from photos and promotional materials.

Frame + fork + rack + stem = $6,000 (not chrome as in photos).

I saw the bike at the bike show in Portland at the NAHBS. I asked about the price of the complete bike as shown (chrome, integrated lights) and got a vague answer that suggested "If you have to ask, you can't afford it." After further pressing, the answer was, "around $10,000."

Maybe a Bikes Direct version wouldn't be so bad after all -- maybe it could be *just* a bit cheaper?

Go to the ReneHerseCycles.com site, and check out their "Boulder Bikes" brand. Made by "a builder whose name starts with W, in a city whose name starts with W" and in a state whose name begins with W, IIRC. Under 3 grand for a complete bike. Almost makes me want to ride a DF again.

Scott P
Bend, OR

Yeah, it's a lot of money. Handmade lugs, handmade stems (with switch for lights built in), and you wouldn't believe the amount of finishwork it takes to make a chrome plating job come out looking good. Is it worth it? Well, the orders are coming in, so the answer seems to be "yes" for at least some folks. I can think of better uses for $10,000, but then I've already got my "old-school custom rando bike".

Personally I just think it's interesting that the market for this type of bike seems to be blossoming. Five years ago I'd never heard of this style of bike. Now they're just about everywhere.

Five years ago I'd never heard of this style of bike. Now they're just about everywhere.

Like this?

Lugged frame: $2400, 1-year wait.

http://www.hampsten.com/Tournesol/audax.html

Someone beat Bikes Direct to the marque?

I have to agree. How is this any different than BD?

Mark has a good rep, so why not just sell under his own name?

I have to agree. How is this any different than BD?

Mark has a good rep, so why not just sell under his own name?

RH bikes are still being custom handbuilt instead of assembly line mass produced; outside of that, it's the same sort of business move. Not selling under his own name could be for any number of reasons. There's already brand recognition for the RH name, there's a certain history behind RH which is an immediate association when people see the name, there's no need to explain a change in branding and why the quality is unchanged, etc.
I don't have any animosity towards either operation. Then again, I don't have a spare $6000 sitting around for a frame and fork, so it doesn't really affect me.
... someday, maybe.

I have to agree. How is this any different than BD?

Mark has a good rep, so why not just sell under his own name?

1) You mean other than selling individually hand crafted custom bikes vs mass produced chinese s**t?

2) He does.

Scott P
Bend, OR

Huh. This is the last subject I would think of being a topic of contention. If it's not worth the money to you (and it isn't to me) then don't buy one, is my attitude. I'm just A) glad to see that there is a market for this kind of bike, and B) excited that the grandest name in French cyclotouring has been revived with a best-quality bike.

Huh. This is the last subject I would think of being a topic of contention. If it's not worth the money to you (and it isn't to me) than don't buy one, is my attitude. I'm just A) glad to see that there is a marker for this kind of bike, and B) excited that the grandest name in French cyclotouring has been revived with a best-quality bike.

+1!

SP

The comparison with Bikesdirect is silly and not even worth a proper debunking.

However, I don't see the need to resurrect the Rene Herse marque. As I understand it, Rene Herse actually built very few frames himself, but the atelier was always run under his, or a direct family member's, auspices. What's the point in starting it all up again, thirty years later, in Colorado? Lyli's blessings notwithstanding, there's just no continuity.

Sure, the pricing is high, but we live in an age of $500 brifteurs and $10,000 carbon fiber frames that have to be scrapped if they get a deep scratch.

What's the point in starting it all up again, thirty years later, in Colorado?
Same reason you can buy a "John Rigby" dangerous game rifle made in California, or an Indian motorcycle made with Harley parts, or a 427 Cobra assembled in New England last week. Some marques have intrinsic value, at least to a certain type of personality. Of course, in the instance of RH bikes, there's the fact that the things are being made on original tooling and come with exact duplicates of "special" parts like the stems and headlights.

If I had money falling out of me arse, I'd probably add my name to the waiting list.

The comparison with Bikesdirect is silly and not even worth a proper debunking.

However, I don't see the need to resurrect the Rene Herse marque. As I understand it, Rene Herse actually built very few frames himself, but the atelier was always run under his, or a direct family member's, auspices. What's the point in starting it all up again, thirty years later, in Colorado? Lyli's blessings notwithstanding, there's just no continuity.

Sure, the pricing is high, but we live in an age of $500 brifteurs and $10,000 carbon fiber frames that have to be scrapped if they get a deep scratch.

You say it is silly, but you use the exact same argument about why Bikesdirect is problematic. I think they are exactly the same. BD is selling a relatively high quality CF and steel frames under names that made racing bikes, and, if they were around today, would probably be selling something similar. The only difference is that Mark Nobilette is charging Herse prices for a Nobilette bike, and Bikesdirect is selling cheaper bikes.

Of course, in the instance of RH bikes, there's the fact that the things are being made on original tooling and come with exact duplicates of "special" parts like the stems and headlights.

Can you please elaborate on this? What tooling has been brought over from France, and what parts are they making? I haven't heard anything about this.

With respect to the stems . . . OK, they are worth reviving, although arguably lots of outfits with a CNC machine could make them. I didn't realize RH made headlights, just thought they used JOS, or similar.

Anyway, I'm a good mood because I'm picking up my new 650b tandem, built specifically for the next PBP, painted something approaching Herse blue, from its constructeur this afternoon. Oh happy day!

if they were around today, would probably be selling something similar.

You've got a point there.

I guess what bugs me is that BD's ad copy makes a big deal about TdF winning marques, when that connection is spurious to the extreme (the actual frames bearing those decals having been built by otherwise unaffiliated artisans).


Mark Nobilette is charging Herse prices for a Nobilette bike

I don't think he is charging an exorbitant premium for the marque. AFAIK, no one in North America has ever built bikes to this standard, with these kinds of details before. A bike with custom components, wireless current transmission, extensive chroming, full accessories, etc. will cost $10k no matter whose name is on it.

The bikes are cool, but I'd still never want to explain that my Herse was built in Colorado. Sorry.

You say it is silly, but you use the exact same argument about why Bikesdirect is problematic. I think they are exactly the same. BD is selling a relatively high quality CF and steel frames under names that made racing bikes, and, if they were around today, would probably be selling something similar. The only difference is that Mark Nobilette is charging Herse prices for a Nobilette bike, and Bikesdirect is selling cheaper bikes.

And a Nobilette frame is inferior how?

(BTW, a frame with Mark's name on it with handmade lugs, stem, bb, rack, internal wiring, etc, etc, etc, would most likely cost somewhere between 4 and 5 grand - same as a "Herse").

Scott P
Bend, OR

Anyone who has read the book The Golden Age of Handbuilt Bicycles (http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/goldenage.html)cannot help becoming enamored with these bikes. Even if hub generators are more practical and efficient I still think it would be cool to have a little lever under the seat that moved the shiny chrome bottle generator on and off the tire. And the current makers of lighting systems need to go to the library and study the work of industrial designer Raymond Loewy (http://www.raymondloewy.com/) and design for us a properly polished and streamlined headlight because we cyclists are all about slicing through the air.

@bobbycorno- "And a Nobilette frame is inferior how?" - It didn't have the loving hand of Rene Herse slowly fondle its curves? Nobilette, I am sure, is a fine builder, but he is not Rene Herse, one of the most famed builders of all time.

As for calling BD bikes Chinese produced crap, well, don't think for one second that isn't why America has fallen behind so bad - underestimating the competition time and time again. Their work is better than ours in so many industries right now that it is embarrassing, and to discount them in bike making (or car manufacture or anything else) is just another mistake. Taiwanese and Korean CF manufacturers are some of the best in the world, and the Chinese aren't too far behind and have taken the lead in some areas. I recommend listening to Schwinn's recent podcast (http://www.terrybicycles.com/seminar.html) on the Terry bicycles blog regarding steel and alu to see how the Chinese have directed their energies regardless of your politics and interests. He makes a strong case for Waterford bikes and steel, but he definitely talks about how technical CF has been ceded to Asia for bicycles.

@Goonster- I don't think he is really charging a premium for the details that he offers. I object to him getting a pass on appropriating a storied name because they are high end products, but BD getting a lot of crap on these boards because they just happen to be affordable products.

I think the hyperbole on this thread is a bit out of control- "no one in North America has ever built bikes to this standard"- I am sure that Vanilla, the now-defunct Mariposa, and Sachs (to name a few) are all capable of building bikes at that level of quality and may have on commission for people at different times. Replicas of original parts? Velo-Orange does that too and not claiming to be Alex Singer.

I am sure people will buy them and I am sure they are great bikes. But the whole name thing just leaves a slight distaste with me (Hell, I would consider buying one even despite my arguments against it, it is just that I would rather have Mark's name on them and would insist on it). If he had called them Nobilette cycles Rene Herse Edition or something like that, I would have no problem, the provenance would be clear.

Can you please elaborate on this? What tooling has been brought over from France, and what parts are they making? I haven't heard anything about this.

With respect to the stems . . . OK, they are worth reviving, although arguably lots of outfits with a CNC machine could make them. I didn't realize RH made headlights, just thought they used JOS, or similar.

Anyway, I'm a good mood because I'm picking up my new 650b tandem, built specifically for the next PBP, painted something approaching Herse blue, from its constructeur this afternoon. Oh happy day!

The Herse website says "In 2007, Michael Kone in Boulder Colorado wished start production of ultimate handcrafted bicycles with an emphasis on Brevet style (bicycles with fenders, lighting, and front racks) machines. But there was a problem; from both a performance perspective, Herse designs remain unsurpassed. To build the finest bicycles one would need to essentially build a new René Herse. Fortunately, Lyli Herse wanted to see the designs and name of her family live on, and she sold rights and remaining equipment and materials to René Herse Bicycles Inc. of Boulder Colorado. Lyli and her husband remain available as 'consultants' to the company, and receive a photograph of each new René Herse Bicycle built."
I think there was a blurb about it in the latest BQ as well, but my copy is at work today and I'm not, so I can't verify it.

And yeah, lots of people could make copies of Herse stuff, but only one person is -- and being under license from Lylie just lends a touch of authenticity.

Pics of that tandem are forthcoming, yes?

Anyone who has read the book The Golden Age of Handbuilt Bicycles (http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/goldenage.html)cannot help becoming enamored with these bikes. Even if hub generators are more practical and efficient I still think it would be cool to have a little lever under the seat that moved the shiny chrome bottle generator on and off the tire. And the current makers of lighting systems need to go to the library and study the work of industrial designer Raymond Loewy (http://www.raymondloewy.com/) and design for us a properly polished and streamlined headlight because we cyclists are all about slicing through the air.

Amen, brother. Golden Age, along with BQ, is largely responsible for my interest in classic randonneuring frames.

Talking about the old lever-actuated bottle generators, though, makes me think of my pet silliness: the rod-operated front derailleurs than Pereira was building. I read that we was selling clamp-on retrofit versions so wrote to him about the possibility of getting parts for a braze-on model for my homemade rando bike. He wrote back to say he was getting out of the gear-changing business entirely. :(

@bobbycorno- "And a Nobilette frame is inferior how?" - It didn't have the loving hand of Rene Herse slowly fondle its curves? Nobilette, I am sure, is a fine builder, but he is not Rene Herse, one of the most famed builders of all time.
I think it's worth noting that a large percentage of Rene Herse frames were built by Jean Desbois, almost from the start. Is a Cinelli not a Cinelli because Cino didn't build it himself?


I think the hyperbole on this thread is a bit out of control- "no one in North America has ever built bikes to this standard"- I am sure that Vanilla, the now-defunct Mariposa, and Sachs (to name a few) are all capable of building bikes at that level of quality and may have on commission for people at different times. Replicas of original parts? Velo-Orange does that too and not claiming to be Alex Singer.
Well, I won't disagree with that. Any number of small custom builders can replicate an Herse -- and probably improve upon it -- on demand. And it only takes a quick look at, say, a Peter Weigle rando bike to see that it has and is being done. But that still doesn't address the fact that a top builder is replicating Herses, down to some fairly fine details, to the highest level possible, with the name and blessing of the Herse family. I still don't see how that's a bad or unprincipled thing.

And FWIW, even as a big fan and frequent customer of Velo-Orange, there's no comparison between the VO branded stuff and the products of any top custom maker.

Arg. I really didn't mean for this thread to become an argument. *shrug*

I think it's worth noting that a large percentage of Rene Herse frames were built by Jean Desbois, almost from the start. Is a Cinelli not a Cinelli because Cino didn't build it himself?


Well, I won't disagree with that. Any number of small custom builders can replicate an Herse -- and probably improve upon it -- on demand. And it only takes a quick look at, say, a Peter Weigle rando bike to see that it has and is being done. But that still doesn't address the fact that a top builder is replicating Herses, down to some fairly fine details, to the highest level possible, with the name and blessing of the Herse family. I still don't see how that's a bad or unprincipled thing.

And FWIW, even as a big fan and frequent customer of Velo-Orange, there's no comparison between the VO branded stuff and the products of any top custom maker.

Arg. I really didn't mean for this thread to become an argument. *shrug*

Sorry, I guess I was just reading too many threads alternating between attacking Bikesdirect and then bemoaning the lack of affordable bikes.... ;)

Anyway, I look forward to seeing how the bikes turn out in the end. I've always been a sucker for true craftsmanship of all sorts.

Value is completely relative, so to argue that something is overpriced is an exercise in futility; it's not overpriced if people pay it. Obviously you're more than welcome to state that you would never pay that price, but clearly it's worth it some people.

Sorry, I guess I was just reading too many threads alternating between attacking Bikesdirect and then bemoaning the lack of affordable bikes.... ;)

Anyway, I look forward to seeing how the bikes turn out in the end. I've always been a sucker for true craftsmanship of all sorts.

I'd never even heard of BikesDirect prior to this thread. Guess that shows how far out of the loop I am!

But honestly, one thing I would very much like to see is an affordable TIG welded frame with classic rando dimensions. Kogswell did something pretty close to that and they sold like hotcakes. Seems like a marketing niche waiting to be filled to me...

I'd never even heard of BikesDirect prior to this thread. Guess that shows how far out of the loop I am!

But honestly, one thing I would very much like to see is an affordable TIG welded frame with classic rando dimensions. Kogswell did something pretty close to that and they sold like hotcakes. Seems like a marketing niche waiting to be filled to me...

Isn't the current Kogswell P/R pretty close to that with the correct fork? Not sure about how classic rando dimensions differ from modern sport-tourer geo though (e.g. Gunnar Sport)

Isn't the current Kogswell P/R pretty close to that with the correct fork? Not sure about how classic rando dimensions differ from modern sport-tourer geo though (e.g. Gunnar Sport)

In a word, steering geometry. OK, so that's two words. Classic rando geometry is optimized for carrying a light to moderate front load. The Sport is optimized for carrying a light rear load or no load. So is my Gunnar Crosshairs (which I chose as a brevet bike over the Sport for a variety of reasons, mostly tire/fender clearance and more upright head angle). I built the Crosshairs up in classic rando style, complete with hammered Honjo fenders and a Berthoud bar bag. I love having all my stuff right at hand, but the bike doesn't carry the front load well. Loaded, it tends to fall into corners rather badly, and wobbles like mad if I try to ride it no hands. Without the bar bag it's happy as a clam. By comparison, my Eisentraut Limited tourer is more like a classic rando bike (steeper head angle and more fork rake) and carries a front load with complete aplomb. Unfortunately it doesn't fit me well, and is comparatively slow and heavy. HOpe that helps clarify the "classic rando" thing.

Scott P
Bend, OR

Value is completely relative, so to argue that something is overpriced is an exercise in futility; it's not overpriced if people pay it. Obviously you're more than welcome to state that you would never pay that price, but clearly it's worth it some people.

The relative value was my point, and perhaps others'. It's not the amount of money. You can get a best quality custom fully outfitted rando bike for half that. What, I wonder, justifies paying $10k for the Herse?

"It's not overpriced if people pay it" does not take into account that people make decisions without adequate information. If I can convince a couple people who don't know about bikes or the bike market to buy Denalis for $10,000 (the bike, not the truck or the mountain), it wasn't overpriced? C'mon.

Isn't the current Kogswell P/R pretty close to that with the correct fork? Not sure about how classic rando dimensions differ from modern sport-tourer geo though (e.g. Gunnar Sport)
Yes. They got the geometry spot-on, IMO. And they sold out before they even arrived stateside. The problems -- at least as far as I am concerned -- is/was the oversize tubing and the sloping top tube. Those weren't deal breakers for me -- I tried to buy one but missed out -- but they are modern non-necessities that served only to detract from the bike, IMO.

Moreover, nobody else has done this sort of thing, and for some reason Matt doesn't seem too excited to do it again.

The relative value was my point, and perhaps others'. It's not the amount of money. You can get a best quality custom fully outfitted rando bike for half that. What, I wonder, justifies paying $10k for the Herse?

Show me a custom frame from a top builder, completely chrome plated, with custom stem and racks, integrated lighting, and top-shelf components, all for $5000.

<edit> I just looked through some back issues of BQ to find the test of Weigle's rando frame. It sold for $4500 a couple of years ago, with a few custom touches like an integrated tail light, handmade rack, etc. It did not come with a custom headlamp, custom stem with integrated light switch, or lugs made from scratch -- and it wasn't chrome plated, either, which can easily add a thousand+ dollars to the price tag.

The Herse is no bargain, but it isn't out of line with prices charged by other top custom builders for best-quality replicas, either.

Yes. They got the geometry spot-on, IMO. And they sold out before they even arrived stateside. The problems -- at least as far as I am concerned -- is/was the oversize tubing and the sloping top tube. Those weren't deal breakers for me -- I tried to buy one but missed out -- but they are modern non-necessities that served only to detract from the bike, IMO.

Moreover, nobody else has done this sort of thing, and for some reason Matt doesn't seem too excited to do it again.

I agree, the oversized tubing is a big turn off for me on the Kogswell, just far too inelegant. I was all set to buy a Heron Randonneur before they went under, but I don't remember if they were a low-trail or high-trail bike which seems to be the big issue with front loads. Now it is between a Tournesol or Toei...

As for comparable bikes at a cheaper price range... I didn't do the math, but it looks like Mariposa was cheaper (http://www.mariposabicycles.com/bike-frame-price-list.html) and Mike Barry's work was first rate.

I saw Nobilette and the Rene Hearse and spoke briefly with him (NAHBS)...The cost is high because of the labor he has in the frame. Essentially, there is a huge amount of tricking out on this bike. I'm not able to quote him but it is essentially more than the name that causes the high price. It is, in my mind, justifiable. He briefly pointed out the additional areas of work....Further, you can buy a basic frame and fork for 1500 from builders but it is generally lacking in the finer pieces of work that distinguish high quality builders. I drooled on Weigles stunning randonneur bike and when I gushed he appreciated my compliments and told me there was a 5 year wait. These two bikes were both incredible bikes with a big dollar price. Other bikes generally do not have the kind of work these displayed. Take a close hand on bike look at these bikes and it will make your head spin.
PW/John

I agree, the oversized tubing is a big turn off for me on the Kogswell, just far too inelegant. I was all set to buy a Heron Randonneur before they went under, but I don't remember if they were a low-trail or high-trail bike which seems to be the big issue with front loads. Now it is between a Tournesol or Toei...

As for comparable bikes at a cheaper price range... I didn't do the math, but it looks like Mariposa was cheaper (http://www.mariposabicycles.com/bike-frame-price-list.html) and Mike Barry's work was first rate.

I had a Heron Randonneur; it was a decent bike but not what I was looking for. Heavy OS tubing, high trail, poor fender lines, lots of toe overlap... Could have been done better, IMO. I'd take a look at the Velo-Orange frames done by Johnny Coast, as well.

The neat thing is that are suddenly so many bike from which to choose. In addition to the ones we've just mentioned, there are at least half a dozen small custom builders who will put together a very nice rando frame for less than $3000. But Mike Barry and Johnny Coast put together solid, good-looking frames out of standard lugs with few or no "special" touches. Integrated light systems, milled aluminum stems with light switches, properly custom made racks, etc., etc. are all going to cost a lot extra, even if these builders were wiling and capable of doing it. And of course if you want it fully chromed, plan on being charged another 1000+ dollars.

Honestly, I personally know of two or three custom builders who could and would closely replicate an Herse: Weigle, Baylis, and Gordon. And I imagine -- and know for a fact, in the case of Baylis -- that it would cost in the neighborhood of ten grand. Perfection just ain't cheap.

I agree, the oversized tubing is a big turn off for me on the Kogswell, just far too inelegant. I was all set to buy a Heron Randonneur before they went under, but I don't remember if they were a low-trail or high-trail bike which seems to be the big issue with front loads. Now it is between a Tournesol or Toei...




The G2 and G3 Kogswell P/Rs use 28.6 down tubes.

And the G4s will have horizontal top tubes.

I had a Heron Randonneur; it was a decent bike but not what I was looking for. Heavy OS tubing, high trail, poor fender lines, lots of toe overlap... Could have been done better, IMO. I'd take a look at the Velo-Orange frames done by Johnny Coast, as well.

The neat thing is that are suddenly so many bike from which to choose. In addition to the ones we've just mentioned, there are at least half a dozen small custom builders who will put together a very nice rando frame for less than $3000. But Mike Barry and Johnny Coast put together solid, good-looking frames out of standard lugs with few or no "special" touches. Integrated light systems, milled aluminum stems with light switches, properly custom made racks, etc., etc. are all going to cost a lot extra, even if these builders were wiling and capable of doing it. And of course if you want it fully chromed, plan on being charged another 1000+ dollars.

Honestly, I personally know of two or three custom builders who could and would closely replicate an Herse: Weigle, Baylis, and Gordon. And I imagine -- and know for a fact, in the case of Baylis -- that it would cost in the neighborhood of ten grand. Perfection just ain't cheap.

Not to beat a dead horse, and I am not criticizing the price which will be totally reasonable for something as hand-crafted as you report, but I do think more builders than you give credit for are capable of this level of work although they would probably all charge around the same for that level of customization of building lugs from scratch, etc.

I think the exciting part is that some of this stuff will filter down (if it is truly clever) into lower end bikes. Why someone doesn't try to spec out a Honjo fender with cleverly integrated lights (ideally Supernova E3 quality) is beyond me. Why not brake lights which would be great for group or crowded rides? There is a lot of room to "modernize" a bike that I think would improve usability and need not ruin the basis of a classic bike...

Not so big on chroming, mostly because the environmental impact is absolutely atrocious.

@Six jours- as for the Heron, did it have OS tubing? Not that it, or any of the other bikes mentioned are really in the same class, but I seem to recall the Heron having very classic lines - I could be wrong. The VO frames look nice but I just like something about the aesthetics of both the Toeis and Tournesols better - VO is an amazing business though.

@Kogswell- thanks for the info on the G4, it will probably go on my list. BTW, a small suggestion - it would be nice to preserve an archive of the bikes you sell and their differences from year to year - you may not make money on resales, but it is a small touch that really can make a difference in the long run. Lynskey sent me specs on a used R210 I purchased along with a very thoughtful offer of a discount on schwag whereas Airborne (which is now Van Nicholas) couldn't even find the specs on the Airborne I had purchased a couple of years ago... just doesn't inspire confidence or make me believe that they love their product and agonize over the details the way I believe you guys do.

@Six jours- as for the Heron, did it have OS tubing? Not that it, or any of the other bikes mentioned are really in the same class, but I seem to recall the Heron having very classic lines - I could be wrong. The VO frames look nice but I just like something about the aesthetics of both the Toeis and Tournesols better - VO is an amazing business though. Yes, the Heron was OS, though not obscenely so. The primary problem was/is that the tubing was OS and fairly thick walled. This resulted in an unnecessarily stiff bike with a buzzy ride. It also had modern high-trail geometry which didn't work so well with the bag (which, incidentally, had to be mounted much too high) and caused an awful lot of toe overlap. In short, a nice try, but lacking in a lot of details.

I agree with you about the Toeis. Gorgeous, traditional bikes for a fair price. If I had my druthers they would not come with sloping to tubes...

Lugged bicycle frames are not limited to steel construction.
Here's a sample of our custom carbon fiber tandem with handcut lugs (with window cutouts).
You can have new/old in ine frame design.