Advocacy & Safety - Learned a hard lesson about drafting today

Ever feel the urge to just draft behind someone without asking them? DON'T EVEN CONSIDER IT!!! Even though I couldn't care less if someone was sucking my rear wheel, there are some people who will go as far as crash into you to prove a point.

Here's my story.

After getting off the train this morning on the commute to work, I saw three bicyclists going the same way as I was. After a few blocks, there was only one, and he was going at a pretty good pace. I caught up to him at a signal and I led for about 2 blocks before I got stopped at another signal. He passed me and rode a little slower than before; there were cars going one way, so I couldn't really pass him. So ... I decided to suck his wheel for a few blocks before he'd turn off (I kinda knew where he was going). Apparently, he didn't like it very much, so instead of telling me verbally that he didn't want to be followed (or at least some hand signals for goodness sake!) he slams on his brakes, and as I was looking behind me to see cars so I could pass him, slam into him, making both of us hit the ground at about 20 mph. :eek:

As I shake off the numb feeling in my cheek after its close encounter with the pavement, guess what he said? "DON'T DRAFT ME, BIITTCHH!!!" :mad: I smiled as well as I could and rode off, while he was still messing with his broken bike. ;)

I guess it was partly my fault, because I was drafting without acknowledgement. There are some pretty mean people out there, and I shouldn't assume that they're all as nice as my riding buddies. They'd rather slam on their brakes and risk a fall to the ground rather than give a simple hand signal to pass, or just yell at me or something.

I learned a very hard lesson today. I hope he did too.

As I shake off the numb feeling in my cheek after its close encounter with the pavement, guess what he said? "DON'T DRAFT ME, BIITTCHH!!!" :mad: I smiled as well as I could and rode off, while he was still messing with his broken bike. ;)

At least you rode away with body and machine intact. This guy is obviously a jerk. Hopefully, he has a broken bike, and a scar or two to remind of this incident. Why didn't he just speak up? I guess only he knows. :(

I love the way you spelt out BIIIIITTCCH. The vision! :)

Glad you're oK!

Amazing. What a jerk. Glad you're okay.

I would have kicked in his spokes, if not his teeth. What a moron.

At least you rode away with body and machine intact. This guy is obviously a jerk. Hopefully, he has a broken bike, and a scar or two to remind of this incident. Why didn't he just speak up? I guess only he knows. :(

Agree wholeheartedly. The guy is just a jerk. Sounds like you got up and got away before he did, so maybe there is some karma in the world after all.

What is this problem some people have with drafting anyway? Heck, I feel flattered if someone thinks my wheel is worthy of drafting -- although if they don't say anything first I don't bother to change my riding pace for their benefit.

Let me get this straight...You're on this guy's wheel and you look back?! That was a mistake in itself. Since you were looking back and not forward, how do you know he wasn't braking for a legitimate reason? Really? Sorry, with the info you provided, I can't really say who was in the wrong with this case. An unfortunate fall by both of you, but it might have been more of an innocent thing than you realize.

If you had been drafting me, and I had to stop suddenly while you weren't paying attention and wiped me out...I'd be calling you some names too. Especially if you weren't invited.

What is this problem some people have with drafting anyway? Heck, I feel flattered if someone thinks my wheel is worthy of drafting -- although if they don't say anything first I don't bother to change my riding pace for their benefit.

If you ask me, I'll say no. If you don't ask me, I'll slow down until you pass me.

Drafting puts both riders in danger, as illustrated by this thread. It's not something you can do without permission.

RichC

I've said it before, you can suck my wheel, but let me know you are there.

Since you didn't tell the guy you were drafting him, how can you be sure he knew you were there?

Since you were drafting him, why were you looking over your shoulder?

You say that he was being a jerk by hitting his brakes. I'm not so sure of that. He might just have been hitting his brakes.

You knocked him off his bike, may have broken it, and smiled as you rode away?

If you did the same thing to me, I might not have called you the same name he did, but I would probably have called your mama something similar.

I wasn't there Chi. I don't know what happened. But I do think you learned the right lesson. Don't draft someone without letting them know.

And if you do draft them, pay attention.

Chi, your humility is admirable and thanks for the warning about drafting. I have to say, though, that I doubt he would crash on purpose, my friend. Yes, it was probably all your bad, this time.

Oh, well, at least y'all weren't hurt.

:)

What is the big deal about drafting? If I'm going one way and someone wants to follow what do I lose? I've found most if not all people where I ride will let you know they are behind you so as long as I don't screw up I have no worries.

What is the big deal about drafting? If I'm going one way and someone wants to follow what do I lose? I've found most if not all people where I ride will let you know they are behind you so as long as I don't screw up I have no worries.

To me, because it is potentially more dangerous, uninvited wheel suckers are a bit worse than a fellow elevator passenger standing within 2 inches of my face for no apparent reason. Could be a personal zone issue as well as an uncertainty of the drafting rider’s skill.

What is the big deal about drafting? If I'm going one way and someone wants to follow what do I lose? I've found most if not all people where I ride will let you know they are behind you so as long as I don't screw up I have no worries.

If you'd been in front of Chi yesterday, you'd be worrying about buying a new bike.

RichC

WOW! Srry you ran into an a$$ (sorry about the pun too). The fool doesn't realize that you reduce his drag too, just not by as much and it sounded like you were in front for a time. Instead of smiling I'd have punched him

Joe
:beer:

Hate to say it, but how do you know he did not signal the stop if you were looking backward?

I love to draft, but will only get in line with those I trust. (Just for the reason you described, I want to know I can trust those in front of me to signal stops.)

M

Hate to say it, but how do you know he did not signal the stop if you were looking backward?

I love to draft, but will only get in line with those I trust. (Just for the reason you described, I want to know I can trust those in front of me to signal stops.)

If you ran into his rear, it is still your fault. (Much like if the car in front of you stops abruptly...maintain safe distance.)


M

I agree, he may have just been using his brakes and you, being to close and not paying attention(looking over your shoulder) hit him. I'd be pissed as well.

it's allways good to communicate.....

Let me get this straight...You're on this guy's wheel and you look back?! That was a mistake in itself. Since you were looking back and not forward, how do you know he wasn't braking for a legitimate reason? Really? Sorry, with the info you provided, I can't really say who was in the wrong with this case. An unfortunate fall by both of you, but it might have been more of an innocent thing than you realize.

If you had been drafting me, and I had to stop suddenly while you weren't paying attention and wiped me out...I'd be calling you some names too. Especially if you weren't invited.Exactly what I was thinking.

If you are a motorist and rear-end a car you are at fault. I fail to see how this is any different, especially when you didn't ask to draft. I'm sure the guy could have held you responsible for the damages of his bike.

It may have been a misunderstanding on my part, but from what I saw is that he stopped very suddenly, for no reason. I was looking back for traffic, not staring back for a long time ... at least I dont think I was.

From the way he acted, thinking back, it seems like he didn't want me drafting him. He wasn't very nice from the beginning, as I had smiled to him at the first stop light. He didn't answer back. And the smile I gave him when I left wasn't meant to be malicious. At the time I thought that it really was his fault for getting pissed and not communicating.

Like I said before, this was a hard lesson for me. I would never draft someone again if I had a bad feeling about them ... heck I wouldn't draft someone without asking them anymore! :) In hindsight the picture is always clearer.

My cheek and my shoulder still hurt. My shoulder is sore so I can't really work very well this morning. :( But it should go away. It better. :p

Thanks everyone for your perspectives!

My cheek and my shoulder still hurt. My shoulder is sore so I can't really work very well this morning.

That's really too bad, Chi. We've all had some close calls, and could just as well have gone down injured, but somehow escaped.

I hope you heal quickly, man, and don't waste too much time regretting a mistake. Do whatever you feel would make amends and move on.

It takes a big person to admit they made a mistake (or at least possibly made one) and post it on the forum’s. I for one appreciate the post as it reminds us to be cautious and safe; to know who is ahead or behind us at all times and whether or not they possess the skill or desire to be in that position. We all benefit from the incident thanks to your post.

Chi,

I'm just wondering if his "kind" words, "DON'T DRAFT ME, BIITTCHH!!!", were expressing his genuine state of mind or if they were an over-reaction after the collision. I suspect he wanted to scare you, and that probably would have been the case if you had been looking forward at the time.

AS for the wisdom of draughting foreigners, I don't like the idea and I don't feel comfortable when someone draughts me. It's not because people behind me rob me of my power or anything like that, because I know it's not a problem. It's rather because, even with a good paceline rider behind me, I loose the freedom to quickly dodge potholes, slow down or accelerate if I want, etc.. In my normal cycling environment, I know I have approximately 3 ft left and right, as well as 15-20 ft fore and aft that I keep free on purpose so I can react quickly. But if you follow too closely, I loose some of that ability, which is something I don't want to happen on busy Saint-Laurent Blvd.

Besides, I don't know whether or not you are good at pacelines! But I know I'm not good at that. I have never trained for anything like that and I don't want to train for that as I find it distracts me from the joy of cycling.

Finally, I also tend to believe in the general principles of vehicular cycling. Maybe not to the extent of John Forester, but more than enough to apply some of the principles used for car driving: I keep a 2-second interval ahead of me and like when there is also a 2-second interval behind me.

Regards,

WOW! Srry you ran into an a$$ (sorry about the pun too). The fool doesn't realize that you reduce his drag too, just not by as much and it sounded like you were in front for a time. Instead of smiling I'd have punched him

Joe
:beer:

And then you would be in jail for assault and battery and responsible for the accident as well (if you rear end somone, you are responsible regardless of the reasons). Physical violence is never the answer and only shows lack of maturity.

Allan

If you draft, draft responsibly.
You really have to be clever to draft some individuals.

Jacob

Flea77
Carbon Fiber Nazi!

Now here's something I can respect (a good love of Carbon Fiber)

Sounds to me like the D/head maybe just dos'nt like the fairer sex :eek: . I personaly love drafting & being drafted ,it can certainly make for some good natured fun on the road + I've met some realy interesting cycling people (of both genders !! ) If they turn off along the way I usualy get a wave or a " thanks for the tow! ". The other day I had a great duel with 2 young teenagers on MTBs for about 6ks ,we ended up even stevens, although they were a lot stronger than me they did'nt know how to use the draft to their advantage ,if they had of they would have left me for dead !!but when we reached a fork in the road they went left & I went right (I was'nt sorry ,I'd had enough!), the youngster in front of me looked over & shouted " Good ride old dude " I felt special :D :D . Like I said 'all good fun' ;) ;)

Some people are just rude and obnoxious. They assume that everyone knows the "unwritten cycling etiquette" from day 1. I've learned a lot the last few years. I used to draft behind people - probably 3 feet away for over a year until someone told me you are supposed to ask. Now that I am a stronger rider and people draft me, or I ride with people who take turns pulling (the person in the front) I see how the draftee effects the riding of the first person. As the leader, I loose my ability to change speeds and enjoy the scenery rather than keep a constant speed and a straight line. I like riding pacelines and I like riding by myself. It is nice to know when someone is in the back. I do have a mirror, so I would notice, and if I am not in the mood to tow, I'll just say so. Pretty simple.

Well, quite a few people seem to think that if Chi had not been looking back, she could have avoided hitting the guy.

Generally, when you are drafting, you are pretty close to the other person's rear wheel. If they brake, you are going to hit them. This is why one should always announce about braking before hand when you are pulling in a paceline. If you don't, people are likely to crash. And that is why you should always ask before drafting someone. When I pull, I know that the people behind me are dependent on me. So no fast unannounced stops. I have to be sure to avoid road debris and potholes and announce their presence because the people behind can not see. If the person you are drafting does not know that you are there, they can easily do something that normally would be fine but with someone drafting can easily cause a crash. Asking for permission is not just good manners, it is essential for safe riding.

Another thing, is some riders are not safe enough to ride in a paceline with. Drafting strangers is a mild form of russian roulette.

Another thing, is some riders are not safe enough to ride in a paceline with. Drafting strangers is a mild form of russian roulette.



And l0ok at me....
I can hardly ride in a straight line!

Jacob
no problem

Update on this.

I finally spoke to the rider that I hit on Thursday. He was riding the same train as me tonight. I must say, my initial impression of him did not change after speaking to him. He's still kind of an ass. Anyway, I told him I was partly at fault on that day and that I was sorry. I should have asked before drafting.

He said that it was because of safety that I shouldn't draft. He said he saw something on the road.

Whatever his true reasons for stopping like that still evade me though. I mean, if a cyclist sees something on the road he/she needs to avoid, they'll prolly just swerve to avoid it, not slam on the brakes (as if you were about to hit something--there was nothing in front of us).

Draw your own conclusions.

As for me, I feel a lot better now that I've confronted him. I don't really care if he learned anything from that accident. I know I did. I guess that's what's important, at least to me.

BTW, for those of you who thought I was a girl, I'm not. ;) The girl in my sig is actually my girlfriend. That was the time I took her down to Santa Cruz on her first true mountain biking experience. :D

Update on this.

BTW, for those of you who thought I was a girl, I'm not. ;) The girl in my sig is actually my girlfriend. That was the time I took her down to Santa Cruz on her first true mountain biking experience. :D
Sorry Chi , no offence meant :( . I got the wrong end of the stick(as usual) :beer:

None taken. :)

I have had several people over the past two years begin drafting me without letting me know they are there, possible due to the fact that I do have a mirror, and they assume I know they are there. Personally, I am a bit uneasy when someone I do not know is riding that closely to my rear wheel, and in general, would feel equally uneasy behind someone I don't know.

In part, most of my rides are for training and exercise, I am concentrating more on my own needs than on being responsible for passing information back to a fellow rider, such as road conditions, braking, turning, etc. Maybe I am a bit gunshy from having NOT seen one of these individuals one day while riding on a very lightly traveled road. I glanced back in my mirror, didn't see any vehicular traffic, and made a left turn. To make things worse, his tucked just off to the left side of my rear wheel. As I completed my turn, I heard several 'compliments' as he proceeded on.

Drafting requires teamwork and interaction, which is not possible if all riders involved are not on the same page, or even aware that other riders are present. I do enjoy paceline riding at times, and I enjoy riding on my own at times. There is a time and place for both....

Update on this.

I finally spoke to the rider that I hit on Thursday. .... He said he saw something on the road.

Whatever his true reasons for stopping like that still evade me though. I mean, if a cyclist sees something on the road he/she needs to avoid, they'll prolly just swerve to avoid it, not slam on the brakes (as if you were about to hit something--there was nothing in front of us). .....


It depends what he saw, how many seconds before he saw it (i.e. reaction time) and what was his perception of the environment at that time.
I remember one time coming back from Cap-Saint-Jacques and seeing in a huge pothole in a curve on Gouin Boulevard. The pothole was deep and wasn't there two days before. I had a parked car to my right and cars passing to my left, and while my lane was wide enough to be safe, I couldn't swerve far enough to avoid the pothole with the bike, trailercycle and child trailer. So I slammed on the brake and had the left trailer wheel fall in the 8" deep hole at about 1 km/h.

Had there been another rider behind me, I might have tried to swerve all 5 wheels around it, but if the rider had been hiding just to the right of me, it's likely I would not have seen him... and BOOM.

So now, without judging on the character of the person you "met", here is an example of a situation where one needs to brake to avoid an obstacle.

Chi -

Sounds like a great outcome, you learned something about drafting as well as to avoid this guy on the road.

How is your shoulder?

Much better. My cheek still hurts though, but it doesn't bother me since I don't use it as much. ;)

That guy was a moron, chi.

If he did not like the situation all he needed to do was wave you on, flip you off, whatever. By slamming on the brakes he provoked an accident and purposefully put both of you in great danger. I would have given that guy an earful, but the fact you rode off while he had to deal with result of his ill judgement is about as elegant and sweet as justice gets. I have seen highway drivers play this hypocritical and dangerous game to discourage tailgaters. Numbskullz.

BK

That guy was a moron, chi.

If he did not like the situation all he needed to do was wave you on, flip you off, whatever. By slamming on the brakes he provoked an accident and purposefully put both of you in great danger. I would have given that guy an earful, but the fact you rode off while he had to deal with result of his ill judgement is about as elegant and sweet as justice gets. I have seen highway drivers play this hypocritical and dangerous game to discourage tailgaters. Numbskullz.

BK

Yeah, okay, so I didn't read the other 30+ posts...sometimes my panties just get all in a bunch, what can I say?

Yeah, okay, so I didn't read the other 30+ posts...sometimes my panties just get all in a bunch, what can I say?

Buddha Knuckle:

This wouldnt be a problem if you didn't wear panties.

Underwear Nazi
Yes, I'm talking to you.

I really don't understand why people are ragging on Chi here. First off the guy must have known he was there - Chi said he'd led him for two blocks before he passed again at a set of lights. Besides that, you have to be pretty far up your own ar$e to not notice someone drafting you. In that situation you don't slam on your brakes for no reason.

Second, Chi said he was looking behind to check for cars as a prelude to passing him again. Tell me, how do you pass someone without first getting close behind them? And do you suggest that he should merge into the traffic lane without first checking behind?

Thirdly, if this guy didn't like being drafted he should have simply said so, rather than slamming on his brakes. His claim that he 'saw something on the road' sounds like so much bulldust to me. What could you possibly see on the road that would make you slam on the brakes like that that wouldn't also be visible to the following cyclist? Did you see anything Chi? It sounds more to me like this clown tried the old warning brake to signal that drafting was unwelcome, but chose exactly the wrong time to do it. The fact that he came off the worst for it sounds like justice to me.

Chi, you mentioned that you led him for two blocks. Was he drafting off you then? If yes, then he's a hypocrite as well as an ar$ehole, if no he's probably just an arrogant s.o.b. that can't stand the thought of someone faster than him - I see them all the time.

For the record, more often than not, I'm the wheelsuckee, not the wheelsucker. In my experience only one rider needs to be experienced in paceline riding, and it doesn't matter which. If you're leading, ride predictably, if you're following, be very alert and look past the cyclist for hazards. Of course it helps if both are experienced, but it's not necessary. It sounds like this situation was a combination of two novices and one bad attitude. Don't give up on drafting Chi, just don't do it with ar$eholes like this. :)

Yeah, okay, so I didn't read the other 30+ posts...sometimes my panties just get all in a bunch, what can I say?

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

No he didn't draft me for the two blocks I led him. At least he's not a hypocrite.

Buddha Knuckle:

This wouldnt be a problem if you didn't wear panties.

Underwear Nazi
Yes, I'm talking to you.

I bet you've been waiting a long time for set up like that, Mr. Anti-Panty. "Underwear while biking?" deserves it's own thread, so until then...

I pick my wedgie,
BK

if you were looking backwards- and he swerved- you may have still hit 'em 50% chance-

I agree with the car type rules- depending on your speed, stay behind anything far enough that you can lock the brakes and stop before you plaster yourself. Endanger and crash into me and ( removed as it insinuates violence, me the censor)

You are lucky the guy didn't do more about it. (assuming he REALLY DID see something and brake.)

I have enough to worry about road conditions and cars and dogs and kids to worry about some ass 2 feet off my rear wheel- go to the velodrome or whatever if you want to play race games.

don't endanger others, a cop would have busted you- unsafe riding, tailgaiting-
maybe on the highway, riding with a group, this is o.k- around town?- scary!

I'm shure most won't like this reply- but RESPECT other bikers.

other hand- hope you heal well, and your smack didn't wreck your ride.

p.s. I wrote this because someone did this to me @ night, with no light and I had no clue ( side roads) so I wasn't looking back for cars and when I did and saw this guy 3 feet behind me IT SCAREDTHE PISS OUTA ME! I was doing like 20+ mph and cutting a line to avoid road chunks- what if I decided to brake and adjust my seat? the **s would have nailed me prob. ( I slowed a bit and pulled the next corner so sharp he couldn't cut it)