Advocacy & Safety - Traffic confrontation escalated, what would you have done?

This is the story of my recent traffic confrontation. I would like to hear some people's opinions as to what they might have done, so that I may gauge whether I'm at the extreme end of the spectrum or not. BTW, I make no apologies for my actions.

My riding partner and I were riding home after about 50km of fast road riding. We were taking main roads home, but trying to stay off to the right where possible. If the lane is too narrow to safely fit one car and one bike, we take up the whole lane. When the incident occurred, we were riding in single file down the middle of a narrow lane going about 30-35 km/h. There was another lane going in the same direction for cars to get around if they needed to.

Many times while riding, cars have buzzed by me too closely, honked at me, shouted profanity at me, then driven off never to be seen again. On this particular occasion, a car accelerated passed my buddy and I. It came close enough that I thought it clipped my buddy in front of me with its mirror. I rode up to my friend, and he confirmed that he hadn't been clipped, but that the car came ridiculously close to him. I was still mad. I could see that the driver needed to stop at the lights not 50 meters away from us (what was the point of his maneuver), so I came up on the drivers side ready to give him a piece of my mind. I was greeted with a stream of profanity explaining how I wasn't supposed to be in the middle of the lane. That made me go from mad to red. I gathered a nice horker and spit it into his open window as I floated slowly by. I'm not sure if the light turned green or not, but he punched it and turned into me hitting me at about mid bike and stopping short of knocking me over (I had to lean over onto his car to not be knocked onto the ground).

He continued driving through the light and down the road at a slow pace. I guess he thought he might pull over and TCB. We followed him as he drove to the next intersection and turned. We continued to follow him as he continued to drive slowly to the next intersection where he finally had to stop. I rode up to his closed window and gave him a piece of my mind (lot's of profanity). He was no longer a hero. He claimed to be calling the cops, and that I should pull over and wait. I did so. Out of curiosity, I walked over to where he hit me and could see the scrape where my boot made contact with his front fender. I went up to his window, and laughing at him telling him “you stupid f$%&, you're going to prison”. I explained that the material evidence was on his vehicle, to which he made two rebuttals in quick concession. The first was, “you cut me off”, and the second was “my word against yours”. I laughed at him and went over to wait by my bike. After about 20 seconds he started driving away... never to be seen again.

I honestly wish this never happened, and I have to accept some responsibility for the escalation. But these kinds of people are a menace and dangerous to cyclists. Why should I have to cower from these morons? I refuse to. I would have much rather pulled him from his car, so give me credit for having some restraint. I would like to know how others would handle this type of situation. Maybe someone can give me some good advice for the next time something like this happens.

No excuse for him doing what he did, but yes, you escalated it and you assaulted him. Had it been me I woulda kicked your butt from here to Sunday...rather than hit you with my car. If you want to dance, don't be surprised when you gotta pay the piper - and every piper exacts their fees in different ways. Be happy that you got off as easy as you did and hopefully learn to keep your cool a little better next time.

I wouldn't have spit. When I was young, I'd have flatted his tire. BUt that is wrong as well.
Right now what I would do is probably ignore him, possibly pull up behind him at the stop, and wave a big happy wave. All the while being ready to get out of the way if he decided to try to backup into me.

I don't think you'll ever educate a driver with an on road debate about your users rights and his driving privilegdes. It will only lead to trouble.

To be honest, the point of spitting was to get him out of his car. Lucky for him he didn't bite.

I don't think you'll ever educate a driver with an on road debate about your users rights and his driving privileges. It will only lead to trouble.


Kill them with kindness is probably the only strategy that "might" have an effect. Yelling at the driver or eloquently spitting on him, while totally awesome, is only going to make him more angry towards you and cyclists in general. I agree with the idea suggested earlier. Pulling up behind him and waving and smiling would probably confuse him, or maybe he would realize you aren't such a bad guy even though you were riding in the middle of the lane.

As I regularly told my own children when they were young, you can control your own behavior, but you can't control others. You acted like an idiot. So did he. You can control what you do.

As I regularly told my own children when they were young, you can control your own behavior, but you can't control others. You acted like an idiot. So did he. You can control what you do.

Point taken.

I tend to go the passive-aggressive route with people like that. I just casually and silently slide up beside them at the light and position myself so that they can clearly see that they gained exactly zero ground with their mad rush to get past - maybe look back with a cheeky smile. That way you can really infuriate them and ruin their day without lowering yourself to their standard.

Frankly, it's kinda foolish escalating a situation with someone who is a) clearly not equipped with a properly functioning decision making faculty, and b) weilding hundreds of kilos of high velocity metal. Unless they do actually hit you with their car, it's better to just laugh at them for the idiots that they are.

Spitting is just wrong.

My first reaction in scenarios like this is to roll up to the driver and ask "What's the problem?", in an assertive, no-BS tone of voice?

If the driver wants to engage in rational discussion, fine. If they want to trade F-bombs, that's fine too.

But, if they try to assault me with their vehicle, it's game on mo-fo. A kicked in door seems like the best form of "karmic expression" in this situation.

BTW - this scenario is one reason I carry both a cell phone and a canister of cop-strength pepper spray.

I'm not going to judge your actions, but the guy was in a 4,000 pound steel box with rubber bumpers & the ability to accellerate far beyond yours. This is a situation that could've turned fatal fast.

I saw a motorcyclist tailgating a car to teach the guy a lesson. The car slammed on his brakes hard. Broken leg for the rider, no ticket for the driver. Bike was following to close- end of story.

Though it was a grand temptation for you.

I tend to go the passive-aggressive route with people like that. I just casually and silently slide up beside them at the light and position myself so that they can clearly see that they gained exactly zero ground with their mad rush to get past - maybe look back with a cheeky smile. That way you can really infuriate them and ruin their day without lowering yourself to their standard.

Frankly, it's kinda foolish escalating a situation with someone who is a) clearly not equipped with a properly functioning decision making faculty, and b) weilding hundreds of kilos of high velocity metal. Unless they do actually hit you with their car, it's better to just laugh at them for the idiots that they are.

I disagree...dangerous aggressive idiots need to be held accountable for their actions, and told that they are unacceptable. Most drivers who do that sort of thing are chicken-sh*ts when confronted, especially when there are witnesses.

As I see it, the mistake you made was putting yourself in a position that he could hit you.

If you are going to yell or spit, make sure you do it in a way that you have an escape route clear of the motorist.

Your actions did make the motorist think about how his actions could have landed him in jail. That is a good thing, since he is far less likely to pull such BS again.

My first choice is calling the cops. If the cops do not help, then the next time it happens, the other options are available. Honolulu Police are little help nowadays, unless it is a hit and run, then they MIGHT take action.

You might want to go back about a month and read some of the entries in the legally speaking column of "Velo News" concerning assault and the "Bird Man".

Next you have to ask yourself if you have made this nutcase more dangerous to cyclists he will encounter in the future.

You had good cause for righteous indignation................and then you threw it all away for the selfish pleasure of a "nice horker". There is hardly a member of the motoring public who is going to read this story and come out on our side, and that's a big problem for all of us.

Spitting on anyone is jive, beyond the pale and criminal.

Cars are big and will win any fight with a bicycle. Taking an entire lane, while legal and your right, may end in your being Dead Right. Any successful ride ends by coming home in one piece.

I always do all I can to give cars all the room I can; I stay close to the side of the road and signal that I know they are there and should come around me. Most of the time drivers are driving to get somewhere, may be in a hurry and doing god-only-knows-what while guiding a two-ton projectile down the road. While legally I have the right-of-way I don't believe it wise to test that right.

Let cars go by, stay out of their way, take it on as your job to watch out for them.

wussyville? He shoulda flattened the tires, ripped off the mirrors, and taught the cretin a memorable lesson.

OK beyond the spitting... which I too feel was wrong... most of you guys are simply acting passively... thus the dipsh!t driver feels vindicated in their whole aggressive approach.

Without any repercussions, this idiot will go out and again pull this on other cyclists, maybe even pull up behind and honk causing the unprepared to jump outta their boots... all to entertain the lowlife motorist.

Frankly this is not acceptable behavior... but we have no recourse except lots of witnesses if things go much worse.

This leads right to the thinking that "oh cyclists are just ****..." and worse thinking by even cops of thinking that "cyclists have it coming" for riding on streets, which are meant for cars... The latter exemplified by the biases stated in Velo news when police investigate collisions between cyclists and motorists.

OK I said a few non-PC things here... but the reality is this sort of thing sucks and we have little recourse. About the only thing I can envision is a helmet cam to at least record this sort of behavior for later prosecution.

I assure everyone here that I made my point with the driver. He will likely not buzz another cyclist again. He locked himself in his car, and was decidedly non-confrontational after I caught up to him the second time. I could see the genuine look of worry on his face. I doubt he wants to risk going through that again, regardless of what he thinks of cyclists.

I always do all I can to give cars all the room I can; I stay close to the side of the road and signal that I know they are there and should come around me. .

MAybe, but you can also be putting yourself at more risk by staying close to the side of the road. I don't ever stay close to the curb, as close as I get is the right side wheel track of the lane. Say about 18-24" from the curb. That's as close as I ever get to the curb. And I have only had 3 close passes in 3 years. 2 times were by the same local cop. And I have ridden in lots of supposed cyclist unfriendly areas, like Miami, St. Louis, Cleveland, and Cincinnati.

As to the spitting thing; splitting at a person is an assault. So that is a bad idea. In my area, spitting on a motor vehicle is not an offense and unlikely to be an offense in most jurisdictions (some cops may want to try and push disorderly conduct, but that is stretching it after some JAM has buzzed a cyclist).

When motorist buzz a cyclist, it is sometimes hard to tell if it was a distracted/inattentive driver or if it was a driver intentionally buzzing the cyclist (especially if the motorist has tinted windows). One tactic I use to judge intent; is when the JAM buzzes me, I will spit on the rear door or rear quarter panel. If it is a distracted/inattentive driver, they just keep going, never knowing they got spat on. On the other hand, if the act was intentional, the driver will be looking in their mirror to see the cyclist reaction. When they see their precious get spit on, they react with a swerve or hitting the brakes. Ensuing conversations have sometimes been humorious:

Motorist: You spit on my car.
Cyclist: You passed me too close.
Motorist: But, you spit on my car.
Cyclist: Yes, you passed me too close.
Motorist: You didn’t have to spit on my car.
Cyclist: You didn’t have to pass me that close.

An advantage to spitting on a car:
Notice how motorist are sheep. They follow the guy in front of them. If the first motorist buzzes you, then without even thinking, the next 2 or 3 motorist buzz you. I have found that if I spit on the first car, the next motorist swerves away from me to prevent the same. And the rest of the sheep follow the second motorist.

I disagree...dangerous aggressive idiots need to be held accountable for their actions, and told that they are unacceptable.

Feel free. I hope you have lots of spare time.


Most drivers who do that sort of thing are chicken-sh*ts when confronted, especially when there are witnesses.

Probably. I just recommend properly weighing your chances before getting into a physical confrontation with someone that has a clear physical advantage, or at least have an escape route. If you must confront someone, better to keep it verbal. If you can remain calm, even better.

He locked himself in his car, and was decidedly non-confrontational after I caught up to him the second time. I could see the genuine look of worry on his face. I doubt he wants to risk going through that again, regardless of what he thinks of cyclists.

You caught him a second time? Hilarious.

What's the speed limit on the road where he passed you?

I'm glad no one got hurt, and I agree this cager is not likely to buzz another cyclist.

It may have been more prudent to spit on his windshield, but prudence in the heat of the moment can't be counted on. That is why police, solders and firemen do lots of rigorous training to help prevent them from acting rashly. It would be good for each of us to prepare a strategy we are comfortable with now to help us be more winsome in future conflicts.

If I can speak to the motorist, (That is, to communicate an idea to him.) I want to impart this idea: Whether or not I was riding where I was supposed to, you have the legal and moral duty to pass me with due care and in a safe manner.

At the other extreme, a driver may stop and get out of his car. In that event, I will try coax him away from his car, perhaps taunting him to get him to come after me. If I can, I intend to snatch his car keys and flee the scene. :p

If he will not be coaxed away, I will dismount and wait for him to approach. I will hold my hands up at shoulder height, palm outward and shout loudly "DON"T HURT ME!" and then grab his shirt and neck and head butt him with my helmet six or seven times, then knee his groin if necasary until I can get him grounded. THEN I will take his keys and flee. :D (Both these scenarios are unlikely, but I can dream!)

For in between, ResQme.

I side with Gene. I think it would be safer for cyclists if we had a reputation of being costly to tangle with.

I was greeted with a stream of profanity explaining how I wasn't supposed to be in the middle of the lane.

Either you ignore him, or you give him a "I'm sorry, that is not the case. Please read Chapter XXX.XX of the XYZ State Traffic Laws," and leave it at that. Any further profanity on his part, call the police on your cell. Usually solves the problem right there. Either way, you're in the clear, and he's provoking the attack.

Think about it next time before you let your anger get the better of you. Play the cards so that they fall in your favor if something DOES happen.

-Kurt

P.S.: Last person who told me that cycles don't belong on the road shut up quite quickly when I suggested that he look up Florida Statutes Chapter 316.2065 - "...it might be quite enlightening."

Coupla thoughts here:
a.) put the local desk sergeant on speed-dial;
b.)sometimes a 'terroristic' approach does work.

The other day, while riding to work, in the 'blue groove' where a car's right-side tires roll, I was buzzed by a femme in a minivan. My boldly flying middle finger made the three other cars behind me think twice and give me some room.

Thugs remain thugs until they're given a proper beatdown by John Q. Public. Congrats on stepping up and facing down a thug. He'll think twice before he tries to intimidate a cyclist or even pedestrian again.

What's the speed limit on the road where he passed you?

50 km/h

Instead of pulling next to him or in front of him (where he can so something to him) , pull behind him at the light. Then enthusiastically smile and wave at him though one of his rear view mirrors.

Nothing shows confidence like a smile and a wave. It shows that you're better than him and that he couldn't annoy you. And best of all, it doesn't escalate. I don't claim to be a saint on this front, but a smile and a wave are usually the best response.

Speaking of not being a saint, if traffic allows it, another thing I've done when a car passes and then immediately brakes for a red light is to pull into the left lane, watch for late cross traffic, blast through the light as it turns green, and then pull back into the right lane. Sometimes, it takes the car a block or two to catch up.

Thugs remain thugs until they're given a proper beatdown.
Yeah but is spitting on him or in his car "proper"?


50 km/h

Wow, you guys were both pretty rude for a couple of metric types. I thought only imperial measures people were that way :) Seriously, his bad behaviour doesn't excuse yours. There's no need to buzz cyclists anytime and it's particularily ridiculous to be so impatient at residential speeds. However, spitting on someone is never the right thing to do. If similarily provoked, I confess I might have lost it and done the same, but I wouldn't be proud of it. It's much more effective teaching people by setting a good example than a bad one. You ramped up the hostility levels out there.

All I'll add is this. I remember back in the day when I had to respond to the scene of a shooting. Seems a motorcycle pulled up next to a car and was having words with the driver, when the driver up and shot him in the face. There is always someone bigger, badder, meaner and just plain more f'd in the head than you are, and whenever you decide you want to be Mr. Tough-Guy, you run the risk of meeting that person. Keep your cool and use your brains, rather than thinking with your ego and your pecker, and you might just live a bit longer.

something similar happened to me. i chased him and caught him at the light. i beat the living ***** out of the roof of his car with my frame pump and he still wouldn't get out. he's lucky he didn't. he passed me doing at least 80 and within 6 inches. i would have certainly gone to prison for murder.

something similar happened to me. i chased him and caught him at the light. i beat the living ***** out of the roof of his car with my frame pump and he still wouldn't get out. he's lucky he didn't. he passed me doing at least 80 and within 6 inches. i would have certainly gone to prison for murder.

Pardon me if I doubt you but this is easy to say but hard to do.

It's easy to see how things escalate in situations like these. I think that Daily Commute has got the right idea. Even though you might want to hit or spit, making light of the situation is often the best thing. Seems to me there are a few reasons to respond. Firist is to vent, second is to get them to see the errors of thier ways, third might be to show off. These things come into play if you are the motorist or the cyclist. As cyclsits we see the danger that the motorists often ignore or are ignorant of in thier actions.

I'd have to say that snappy comebacks are remarkably fulfilling way to assert your position, or put a person in their place. While, "what's the hurry bloke, dont you know that speeding up to red lights wont add a single mm to your pecker?", might work on the venting leval it fails on the teaching level. I am not even sure that there is ever really a teaching situation when a motorits puposfully comes close to killing someone.

Usually when a motorist passes dangerously close to me, I usually indicate that their driving techiques are number one in my book. The city that I live in is small enough that I can easily find out who the motorist was. Just the other day, a motorist in a older brown Ford pickup deliberately drove into the bike lane just in front of me, not once but twice, while looking into his passenger mirror. He just so happens to live a few blocks from where the incidents occured, not only can I tell the local authorities his license number and description, but can show them where he lives if need be. I can see the TV show now, "World's Dumbest Motorists":D

I am very assertive at lane use, but I make a deliberate effort (especially now that I have kids and want to set a good example) to avoid confrontations that can escalate. I think road rage hotlines are a good way to give frustrated cyclists an outlet and let the police know what is going on. Here in Cary, the police do follow-up on road rage calls and will notice repeat offenders.

Pardon me if I doubt you but this is easy to say but hard to do.

which part?

it was a nissan, so it was easy to dent with my zefal.

maybe not murder, because it's pretty hard to beat someone that badly. but i'd have been in jail nonetheless.

Exactly why I ride with a handlebar video camera. When you have evidence there's no denying what happened. That said, having the camera on, I realize I can't go act like a jack***** either. This has resulted in my letting go of all but the most egregious offenses where someone could potentially kill or severely injure me. I've found whipping out a cellphone and pretending to take a picture of someone's license plate pretty much ends a driver's aggression, too. Also, telling them that you're happy to wait for the police because you have the whole thing on video, pointing to a camera -that ends the confrontation right there. I've done it twice since December. Made me feel better about not letting something get out of hand but also letting the driver know they were scrwd if they wanted to escalate the situation.

I've been in a road rage situation in my car where by a single action things escalated way beyond where they should have and things almost got very very nasty. Point being, what others have said, control what you can and don't expect to either predict how others will behave or control a situation. In the end it's not worth it.

In this situation. I would have let the guy go. No way I'd ever spit on a car or in one.

My approach:
If you think I am doing something illegal call the cops. If you take the law into your own hands and recklessly endanger my life, I call the cops and you go to jail.

^^^ definately the more sane approach! my incident occured 10yrs ago when i had some SERIOUS rage issues and before everybody and their cat had mobile phones. i don't think i would react so violently now.

Exactly why I ride with a handlebar video camera. When you have evidence there's no denying what happened. That said, having the camera on, I realize I can't go act like a jack***** either. This has resulted in my letting go of all but the most egregious offenses where someone could potentially kill or severely injure me. I've found whipping out a cellphone and pretending to take a picture of someone's license plate pretty much ends a driver's aggression, too. Also, telling them that you're happy to wait for the police because you have the whole thing on video, pointing to a camera -that ends the confrontation right there. I've done it twice since December. Made me feel better about not letting something get out of hand but also letting the driver know they were scrwd if they wanted to escalate the situation.

I've been in a road rage situation in my car where by a single action things escalated way beyond where they should have and things almost got very very nasty. Point being, what others have said, control what you can and don't expect to either predict how others will behave or control a situation. In the end it's not worth it.

In this situation. I would have let the guy go. No way I'd ever spit on a car or in one.

I've been thinking of getting a video camera - handlebar or helmet mounted. Can you tell us about your setup?

When I was injured last year, I spoke with a cycling attorney who had successfully used his video camera to collect damages in excess of $25,000 from a couple of different "road rage" drivers. The camera provided the evidence he needed to sue for civil damages.

Escalating any situation is a good way to wind up getting locked up or shot, whether you are originally in the right or not doesn't matter at all.

Whip out a pad and write down their license, or take a picture with a camera-phone.

1) Removing anonymity takes away 90% of people's "courage"

2) Having that information is nice, so you can cool down, and decide how best to use it in a better state of mind

n this particular occasion, a car accelerated passed my buddy and I. ... he hadn't been clipped, but that the car came ridiculously close to him.

I was still mad.

the driver needed to stop at the lights not 50 meters away from us (what was the point of his maneuver), so I came up on the drivers side ready to give him a piece of my mind. I was greeted with a stream of profanity explaining how I wasn't supposed to be in the middle of the lane.

That made me go from mad to red. I gathered a nice horker and spit it into his open window as I floated slowly by.

You were overcome by emotion and overly confrontational.
Give the motorist opportunity to communicate, but don't get in their face or too close.
I find pulling up behind them on drivers side (they can see you in mirror) will allow them to express if they desire, but reduces the confrontational aspect. Having them speak first is good.

You and the cycling community lost. What you did only increased this drivers hostility towards cyclists.

Learn to control your emotions.

Al

This is the story of my recent traffic confrontation. I would like to hear some people's opinions as to what they might have done, so that I may gauge whether I'm at the extreme end of the spectrum or not. BTW, I make no apologies for my actions.

...snip...

You should.

Whip out a pad and write down their license, or take a picture with a camera-phone.

1) Removing anonymity takes away 90% of people's "courage"

2) Having that information is nice, so you can cool down, and decide how best to use it in a better state of mind

Before phone cameras, and even since then I have always carried one or two disposable cameras in my glove compartment in my car for accidents and 'situations'.

This makes me think I should get one for my bike, too. Gotta find the smallest one, put it in double, triple zip-lock bags, and forget about it until I need it, just like the expired disposables in my glove compartment that I need to swap out.

//I've taken pictures of other people's accidents and given the cameras to the drivers/victims before. The things are cheap.

Whip out a pad and write down their license, or take a picture with a camera-phone.

1) Removing anonymity takes away 90% of people's "courage"

2) Having that information is nice, so you can cool down, and decide how best to use it in a better state of mind


+1
The other day I stopped at the coffee shop and a driver was double parked in the bike lane. I suspect her husband was in the long line at the coffee shop. I stepped in front, took out my camera phone to take a picture, she moved her car.

The other day I stopped at the coffee shop and a driver was double parked in the bike lane. I suspect her husband was in the long line at the coffee shop. I stepped in front, took out my camera phone to take a picture, she moved her car.
I was in a mall parking lot a while back, and a lady aggressively cut me off to get a parking space around the corner. I found another space, and went and took her license number. She was already walking to the mall, but saw me. As my wife and I strolled into the mall, we saw her walking nervously back to her car to move it.

I felt better...

I just keep a bunch of printed copies of this: http://www.dot.state.wi.us/safety/vehicle/bicycle/rules.htm

It is from the Wisconsin Dept of Transportation, and it outlines proper safety for cyclists from both the cyclist's and motorist's perspectives. I highlighted the "Motorist Reminders" section. If I ever have a confrontation with a motorist I can just hand them a copy of this. Besides that, I'm a very confident, courteous rider, and follow the law as closely as I can. I use the smile and wave technique a lot.

I really do like the "spit test" to see if a driver buzzed you intentionally. It sounds like it works really well. I'll give it a shot. It seems like a good way to get aggressive motorists to actually get out and talk, without harassing motorists who didn't do it intentionally.

I've been thinking of getting a video camera - handlebar or helmet mounted. Can you tell us about your setup?

When I was injured last year, I spoke with a cycling attorney who had successfully used his video camera to collect damages in excess of $25,000 from a couple of different "road rage" drivers. The camera provided the evidence he needed to sue for civil damages.

Oregon Scientific ATC2k ~$90
I have it mounted on my bars. Supposedly quality is much better on helmet mount, but then you lose all stealth factor. On your bars no one notices it or knows what it is.
It holds 1 hour on large picture size fine quality (30fps) on a 2gb card (biggest it will take)
It's waterproof enough for snorkeling down to 20ft I think which bodes well for commuting.
I've dropped it many times and its fine due to its ruggedized design.
The picture is ok, not great. You're not going to get the lic plate of a car that zooms by you at 50mph but you'll get make model, color, etc. It's a little grainy and the sound quality is horrible if you're moving. It's captured "conversations" with motorists when I'm standing still just fine, though.
It runs on 2AA batteries which are convenient if you're using rechargeables.
It clips easily in and out of a handlebar mount that stays on your bars.


I've also heard that there's another model out there using the same electronics (not waterproof or as mountable) for <~$50

I
I really do like the "spit test" to see if a driver buzzed you intentionally. It sounds like it works really well. I'll give it a shot. It seems like a good way to get aggressive motorists to actually get out and talk, without harassing motorists who didn't do it intentionally.

Are you being sarcastic? I strongly suspect, but...

Al