General Cycling Discussion - Where does your wallet and LBS loyalty part ways?

How much mark up will you pay at a LBS to keep a good relationship with them? I am wondering because I just bought a Park chain cleaner (http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=11379&subcategory_ID=4206) for 38.95.

I was looking for something this afternoon on Performance and they have the exact same set up for 23.99 (23.95 on Nashbar) not on sale. Do I feel ripped off? Not as long as it continues to work as well as it did on my MTB. It was well worth the $40.

But how much mark up will you put up with before you say forget this and order online? I under stand a LBS needs to turn a profit and I'm not disputing that.

How much mark up will you pay at a LBS to keep a good relationship with them? I am wondering because I just bought a Park chain cleaner (http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=11379&subcategory_ID=4206) for 38.95.

But how much mark up will you put up with before you say forget this and order online? I under stand a LBS needs to turn a profit and I'm not disputing that.

I usually buy all of my small items at the LBS, (items under $100) , anything over that I shop for the best price online.

Don't forget shipping charges on things you buy on the internet. You may or may not get away without paying sales tax on internet purchases, but you gotta figure the total cost.

Which DOSE do you mean? By context I think #4.
DOSE1 a: the measured quantity of a therapeutic agent to be taken at one time b: the quantity of radiation administered or absorbed
2: a portion of a substance added during a process
3: an amount of something likened to a prescribed or measured quantity of medicine
4: a gonorrheal infection

i never go anywhere else besides my local bike shop. if they don't have an item they offer to order it for me at pretty much wholesale price. the superb service i get there far outweighs money.

the shop is ran by one older lady. the shop is kinda in the middle of nowhere (think stereotypical thoughts about seemingly endless miles of farmland in Wisconsin... get the picture?) they don't get a ton of business, a lot of her inventory is kinda old too. but I've bought all my bikes there since i was a little kid. she repairs them free of charge, and offers free tuneups for life. i would feel absolutely terrible going somewhere else for any of my biking needs. she sold me my last bike with no markup and gives me a few bucks off every time i shop. i've also reffered alot of people to her shop maybe that part of it.

anyway, LBS no matter what

when they want to charge me $200 more than the shipped cost for a custom wheelset from an online vendor.

I have a little formula:

Does the shop have it in?
Yes? I buy it there. The reason I buy in shop is to see and try, ask questions and get feedback.

If the product isn't in the store, then the big reasons for the markup the store has (and the reason I even went into the store!) are gone: no interactive, hands-on experience, no buying right away - basically, the store has been reduced to a mail-order /w markup.

Still, the situation can be varying: sometimes the cost of shipping the product isn't attractive. And sometimes, the shop is able to bring the product in within a day or two whereas an internet purchase would require weeks - but on the flip side, sometimes the shop takes weeks too, depending on who they have to order from. I always inquire about the time it'll take them to bring it in, and check how that compares to the 'net, then decide.

Don't forget shipping charges on things you buy on the internet. You may or may not get away without paying sales tax on internet purchases, but you gotta figure the total cost.

+1 on this. I've had lots of discussions with friends who brag that they got something six bucks cheaper online, but it doesn't seem to occur to them that they spent seven bucks for shipping and had to wait five days.
I buy tubes, patch kits, bar tape and small stuff like that locally when I can find it, which I often can't--I like cotton bar tape, for instance, and the one local shop that still carries it has only black. For something like a wheel, say $150 or $200, I'll at least ask locally. I might go $20 more on a $200 purchase.
When I bought my Atlantis ($950 for frame and fork four years ago, now $1400, I think), I went around to our four top local shops and told them what I was looking for: room for big tires, handlebars level with the saddle, triple crank etc. Only one of them even bothered to TRY to find something, and the bike they came up with was 3cm too small ("We'll put on a long seat post") and geared too high. I ordered from Rivendell, got exactly what I wanted in two days and I've never regretted it.

I've never bought anything online. But I have found great deals on bike parts at place like Supergo and Performance. Once in a while a good deal at the LBS. I've found a Velocity Deep V for $25, DA rear derailleur 9 speed for $64 no tax, I bought 2:D

I have been buying a few things on-line. Mostly closeouts or 50% or better discounts. I have purchased Pearl Izumi Kodiak jerseys from Colorado Cyclist two years in a row and 50% discounts. Got a Princeton Tec SW3 at CC for 55% off on closeout. Everything else is LBS because they do give me great service and helpful advice.

If it's something that has to fit me (helmet, shoes) or has to be fitted to me (cleats) or fitted to the bike (fenders) or a whole bike itself, I go to the LBS.

If it's in-stock or I can't find it online and have to special order it, I go to the LBS.

If I need advice, or need to hold it in my hands before I buy (like to see which size seat bag will hold my stuff), I go to the LBS.

Otherwise, I order online.

I have a little formula:

Does the shop have it in?
Yes? I buy it there. The reason I buy in shop is to see and try, ask questions and get feedback.

If the product isn't in the store, then the big reasons for the markup the store has (and the reason I even went into the store!) are gone: no interactive, hands-on experience, no buying right away - basically, the store has been reduced to a mail-order /w markup.

Yes, absolutely. There are plenty of bike shops that will get you anything you want, but don't stock much.

I am willing to pay the higher retail cost associated with brick-and-mortar businesses if I can inspect what I want before I purchase it and if I can get good advice there. I'm not willing to pay that price if they're just going to take an order (usually non-refundable) I can place myself online.

And, at least here in New York, there are some local shops whose markups are completely out of line. Chelsea Bicycles comes to mind. They've got just about anything you might want in stock, but their prices are simply nuts. And I've gotten some seriously bad advice there.

I find it depends on who's working that day. If it's the hardcore road racers or the fixed-gear guys, I don't buy, because they simply have no way to relate to what I want and can't give me any advice. On the other hand, I now know which mechanics like classic bikes at four LBSs, and if I go in and see them working, I usually buy something.

(I had a nice surprise at one shop yesterday - they are usually way high-end for me, but I was on my way by and stopped to see if they had Powergrip pedals - ended up having the best conversation with a mechanic I hadn't met before. He admired my Raleigh, which is a sure way to get me to like you, and had some useful suggestions for a DIY solution for Powergrips, since they no longer carried those).

For me, it just boils down to convenience. With my busy work schedule I don't have time to run over to my LBS, even for small items.
I order 90% of stuff on-line and have them delivered to my place of business.

I hate hate hate shopping at any of the LBS's around me. All the parts they have are usually behind the counter, or back in the store room. It's impossible to compare. I have no way of knowing what brand is better, what the difference is or if they even have something in stock that will fit my need.

The clerks seem less than interested in actually walking me through the purchase, which would be the only reason I would shop at the LBS. I pretty much got fed up with me going in and asking, "do you have x part?". 10 minutes later they come out from the stockroom with only one part, and it's always the most expensive one. Then I ask, "do you have any other manufacturers in stock, you know to compare the two, or three?", which is usually followed by a big sigh and a roll of the eyes on the clerk's part followed by another 10 minute wait. Then they come out with two parts, it's followed by largely incomprehensible grunts and mumbles to any of my questions.

And god forbid if you call a part by the wrong name, or show any level of proficiency with bike knowledge below your average olympic racer or tour de francer. I guess they think you are some kind of bike luddite if you can't immediate recite your bike's top tube length or type of bottom bracket off the top of your head. (Of course I am a bike luddite, but I don't expect to be treated as one when I go to the people with knowledge).

Online I can search for parts from several online dealers, and more importantly, compare user reviews, search for the best prices (including shipping costs), alternate options, etc, all from the comfort of my home.

I learned how to tune (and eventually build) my own bike using online resources after several attempts at getting several problems fixed with my old bike at an LBS were ignored.

Until the LBS's in my area train their employees to offer a higher level of customer service (which would be the only reason to justify the higher prices), I'll stick to online shopping.

I have made several purchases from Nashbar. If I'm not in a hurry for the part, I'll save a few bucks.

There is a Performance Bike along my commute. They are open until 9:00pm and have the same prices as they do online. That is where I buy most of my stuff.

However, they don't always have what I need and there is another shop within a few miles of my house. I go there when I need to. My next, (and first, brand new) bicycle purchase will be from this shop, as well.

Accessories often can be purchased at high volume stores cheaper. Yet, small stores where you are thought of as a regular is where I find you get excellant repair at reasonable prices. Example. Just this week I replaced four brake pads on one of my commuters. I did the same about a year ago. / A year ago, I on the spur of the moment , in a rush ; paid 48 euros to replace for brake pads at a large mega store. / Just this Tuesday, I paid 27 euros to replace the same four brake pads. Plus the mechanic did an overall adjustment of the brake and shifters. / I very much like my small shops where they know my name.

I am semi-displeased with my LBS. They give everyone a coupon for 20% the entire next purchase for accessories. When I bought my helmet, lock, fenders & a few lil things, I expected the entire purchase 20% off, but they only gave me 1 item on the discount. I spoke to the guy who runs it & he didn't seem to care too much.

With that said, if I need it that day or if I'm not comfortable installing it myself (ie, fenders or replacement for a blown tire) I'll buy it locally.

If I can find an item for less online, & won't waste all savings on shipping, I'll buy online & save my money.

If I can't find it online for cheaper then the LBS, I'll go to the LBS.

I'm all for helping the local economy, especially when it's the only shop in a 60 mile radius, but if they can't honor their own coupons, I'll save myself a few bucks when I can.

Part of the reason I started this thread is because I'm going to be buying a custom set of wheels and after being in my LBS armed with some experience of what things cost from 'window' shopping online I'm afraid to ask what he (1 man shop, owner/operator) would charge for the build. I'm gaining a better relationship with him. I even brought up my weight and he was EXTREMELY supportive and let me know that I wasn't even the biggest guy that comes into the shop.

I guess I'm starting to feel some sort of loyalty to him and I almost feel bad about going some wear else for the more expencive thinks. If I had a lot of money I wouldn't care but I don't so when I buy more expencive things it important for me to try and get the best deal I can find.

I hate hate hate shopping at any of the LBS's around me. All the parts they have are usually behind the counter, or back in the store room. It's impossible to compare. I have no way of knowing what brand is better, what the difference is or if they even have something in stock that will fit my need.

The clerks seem less than interested in actually walking me through the purchase, which would be the only reason I would shop at the LBS. I pretty much got fed up with me going in and asking, "do you have x part?". 10 minutes later they come out from the stockroom with only one part, and it's always the most expensive one. Then I ask, "do you have any other manufacturers in stock, you know to compare the two, or three?", which is usually followed by a big sigh and a roll of the eyes on the clerk's part followed by another 10 minute wait. Then they come out with two parts, it's followed by largely incomprehensible grunts and mumbles to any of my questions.

And god forbid if you call a part by the wrong name, or show any level of proficiency with bike knowledge below your average olympic racer or tour de francer. I guess they think you are some kind of bike luddite if you can't immediate recite your bike's top tube length or type of bottom bracket off the top of your head. (Of course I am a bike luddite, but I don't expect to be treated as one when I go to the people with knowledge).

Online I can search for parts from several online dealers, and more importantly, compare user reviews, search for the best prices (including shipping costs), alternate options, etc, all from the comfort of my home.

I learned how to tune (and eventually build) my own bike using online resources after several attempts at getting several problems fixed with my old bike at an LBS were ignored.

Until the LBS's in my area train their employees to offer a higher level of customer service (which would be the only reason to justify the higher prices), I'll stick to online shopping.

+1

"Performance Bike ... have the same prices as they do online"

Actually, not quite. . . I just ran a pair of pedals back to the shop 'cause it was cheaper on line. They were happy to honor the on-line price -- zero hassle, no attitude. They said that sometimes the in-store prices are lower, too. Pays to check.

I'll echo the notion of things that I want to try on or that I need to see.

I might extend that to wheels, since that's what OP is asking on -- if they don't arrive stressed and re-trued, you're back at the local shop if you haven't got your own truing stand. You might even wangle a one-year tune up on wheels from an LBS, so if price is about equal, consider there's some "down the road" service to some parts -- like wheels -- that you mayn't be able to tackle at home.

P.S. Weight's no issue -- consider there's folks doing bike courier work in other countries who routinely carry hundreds of pounds. Just get wheels that are right for task. I ran "tandem" 40-spokers for touring. Bomb-proof!

Depends on what I am after...

Most of the stuff I buy isn't available too many places (old stuff for Raleighs) so it comes from where ever I can find it.

Newer items will come from the LBS if they have them in stock, or from smaller online retailers like: Wallingford (http://wallbike.com/), Velo-Orange (http://velo-orange.com/), Clever Cycles (http://clevercycles.com/), etc. They all carry the type of stuff I buy and the LBS usually takes longer to get it in than it does to have it shipped. I have purchased from all of the above and have had excellent service.

New bikes so far have all come from one LBS, but just ordered another one from the LBS where I am at the moment.

Aaron:)

the only lbs in my area caters to roadies mostl. Im a broke college student living car free with a 18 year old hybrid. I will go out of my way to save a few bucks, and it doesnt make sense for me to pay extra money to have someone make me feel like I need to completely rebuild my bike for it to be acceptable. I got my bike used so it has quite a bit of wear on it that makes it look like I have not taken care of the bike, this gets me the idiot who doesnt know how to care for a bike treatment. I would much rather sit in the comfort of my own home and compare prices and specs with reviews, then ride the 6 miles to the lbs to find out they are out of stock or only have the top of the line in stock.

How much mark up will you pay at a LBS to keep a good relationship with them? I am wondering because I just bought a Park chain cleaner (http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=11379&subcategory_ID=4206) for 38.95.

I was looking for something this afternoon on Performance and they have the exact same set up for 23.99 (23.95 on Nashbar) not on sale. Do I feel ripped off? Not as long as it continues to work as well as it did on my MTB. It was well worth the $40.

But how much mark up will you put up with before you say forget this and order online? I under stand a LBS needs to turn a profit and I'm not disputing that.

How much is shipping?

FWIW I usually go to the LBS for parts which they have in stock because they very often meet or beat online prices.

purchase from the LBS probably 90% of the time and mailorder the remaining 10%.

Anything I have to pay them to install, I'll buy through them.

Stuff like bike trainers, shorts, jerseys, gloves, new style derailleurs I always buy at the shop. It has to be a stupid ridiculous deal so I can buy it online.

I like to support the bike shop, but then again there are days when they sell way over-priced items, I would say 85% of the time is bought locally, and like some say it is easy to test and return.

Good question.

If I need one or two things, and want them now, I'm willing to pay whatever price they have. Like I finally broke down and got a chain whip instead of using my ghetto chain and vise grips, probably payed 23 (that included tax) for the Park brand, obviously much cheaper online. Same thing with a pump. I was about to go for ride, my crappy pump broke so I jump on my commuter bike, rode to the LBS, bought a good one, and was on my other bike within 10 minutes. Can't beat that.

Other stuff, like tubes, tires, chains, or whatever get ordered online...

the only lbs in my area caters to roadies mostl. Im a broke college student living car free with a 18 year old hybrid. I will go out of my way to save a few bucks, and it doesnt make sense for me to pay extra money to have someone make me feel like I need to completely rebuild my bike for it to be acceptable. I got my bike used so it has quite a bit of wear on it that makes it look like I have not taken care of the bike, this gets me the idiot who doesnt know how to care for a bike treatment. I would much rather sit in the comfort of my own home and compare prices and specs with reviews, then ride the 6 miles to the lbs to find out they are out of stock or only have the top of the line in stock.

Oh, boy, do I know that treatment. I went into one shop having just bought a mid-80s steel touring bike which pretty well needed everything from the frame out replaced - but the frame itself is gorgeous, lugged lightweight steel with Tange fork, in the somewhat oddball size that I need (I'm a very tall woman with a short torso). I was looking for advice on what to tackle first and what my options were for upgrades in the shifting etc. I got the "nobody rides steel anymore" snottiness and then they tried to sell me a new bike (which was a low-end Miele).

I went to another shop and have had very good luck there. It helped to talk to the posters over in the Classic & Vintage forum here so that I got a better handle on the terms I needed to know, and what questions to ask.

If it's something that has to fit me (helmet, shoes) or has to be fitted to me (cleats) or fitted to the bike (fenders) or a whole bike itself, I go to the LBS.

If it's in-stock or I can't find it online and have to special order it, I go to the LBS.

If I need advice, or need to hold it in my hands before I buy (like to see which size seat bag will hold my stuff), I go to the LBS.

Otherwise, I order online.

+1
Except anything I cant fit on the bike myself (eg lights, brakes etc, anything except bottom bracket I guess, or something for which I dont have the tools or time to install myself).

I purchase from the LBS probably 10% of the time and mail order the remaining 90%. I even do my own tuneups. My LBS is too overpriced. I have not found a deal yet that my LBS could match let alone beat. with shipping include I still can save money buying on line. They have ripped me off in more ways than one. I've got my own family to support, I can't support someone else...

I buy most everything locally. I don't mind paying a bit more, for all the typical reasons.

For some things, or things I need ASAP I buy from the LBS. I have two local ones I go to (primary and secondary). Though the secondary may become primary as there's a cute girl working the counter now :rolleyes: . I just finished building up my bike, and I was going back and forth buying little things such as cable ends, cable housing, etc. Most expensive thing I purchased locally was my helmet. $15 more expensive than purchasing it online (with shipping), but I had my bike my car, and was headed to the trails and needed the helmet asap.

These days, I make a list, and just buy everything online or on eBay. I support everyone a little bit!

I like to support the local guy if I can but when it costs me double or triple the price I just can't justify it. One of our local shops has absolutely pathetic service so much so that I drove 45 miles to another shop to buy my road bike even though these guys 3 miles away carried the same lines. The other one is only about 1.5-2 miles away and they are always pretty friendly but the prices seem outrageous to me. I needed a star nut installed into a fork I got awhile back. They charged me $9.95 for the nut and $10 to pop it in. Back when I first got into MTB'ing I paid ~300 for a set of Avid BB5 discs. I found the same brakes about a week later for ~$59 per wheel online. That was the point when I started learning to do my own maintenance/installations/repairs and started doing 95% of my shopping online, mostly from Performance.

I'm more of a DIY'er and tend to do my research beforehand anyways so the service at the shop isn't a big factor for me when it comes to parts & accessories. New bikes are the one exception where I will go to a shop since the fitting and adjusting is well worth a bit of a premium.

Depending on how much it's marked up it's well worth it for the convenience of returning if you have to. Or Getting it fixed or serviced. Usually an LBS will throw in free servicing with anything they sell you for the most part. Besides normal wear and tear stuff of course.

Depending on how much it's marked up it's well worth it for the convenience of returning if you have to. Or Getting it fixed or serviced. Usually an LBS will throw in free servicing with anything they sell you for the most part. Besides normal wear and tear stuff of course.

Sadly this shop doesn't offer free service. I got one free adjustment when I bought my mountain bike; thankfully Sheldon Brown insured that was all I needed. The shop where I bought my road bike does offer lifetime adjustments on the brakes and drivetrain, not really needed but nice to know it's there if I do. As for returns Performance makes it pretty easy too, just put it back in the box and stick the included sticker on it. I still recommend the local guys to my friends for new bikes, anything you need ASAP or the cheap stuff like tubes and such but being knowledgeable about my purchases beforehand as well as servicing them afterwards means that I shop more based on price these days.

i really don't like my local shop. it's just understocked, overpriced, and not really my style. then there is the big mega-bike shop with a billion employees, spandex dudes walking around, and ****ty attitudes. then there's performance.

if i want to go to the good shop i like, i have to trek up to the other side of town, which i don't have time for during the week.

so i get most of my stuff online, or stop in at performance (it's on my way home) if i really need something and they have it. i would prefer to do all my business at my favorite shop, but convenience is a huge factor.

Purchase nearly all my bike gear at LBS, or REI if the LBS doesn't or can't get a specific item ordered. They know me and my bike, so I keep going back - my LBS is a fantastic resource for commuters. My previous LBS and I parted ways last year...it seemed they only carried top brand items, wouldn't or didn't want to listen to my input and tried selling me fenders @ $100 plus labor saying they were the only fenders they ever used. Um, I'm not rich so I said "no thank you" and never went back. Oh, plus they didn't stand behind their products and didn't want to handle a return/exchange on a faulty item even though I had the receipt.

One other thing - women's bicycling clothing. I order on-line pretty exclusively b/c the LBS really doesn't carry much or what I need and prices are higher than I can afford, unless their stuff goes on sale or something.

My LBS has to compete on price when I have the time to order it. It's business. I make the best business decision I can with regards to a host of factors including price.

I buy most everything locally. I don't mind paying a bit more, for all the typical reasons.

I favor this, but the before tax/shipping price generally needs to be within 10-15%. Again, it's a business, not a charity.

My LBS has to compete on price when I have the time to order it. It's business. I make the best business decision I can with regards to a host of factors including price.


That is right. It is a business. If a bike shop(or any small store) does not make at least a 35%(+-) margin, then they lose money when all the infrastructure bills are added to equation.

some of the local shops just don't get it when it comes to prices. Lots of stuff is 25-35% over what others sell it for in other bike shops and online(not the deep discount kind). I like what they do with rides but, frankly dealing with the customer service guy there is a real pain.

Tires, cassettes, and chains are the killer for me. Universally they're at least, but usually more than, double at the LBS vs. a certain UK E-tailer. I literally keep two bikes running (both bought from my LBS) on the cost of one.

But how much mark up will you put up with before you say forget this and order online? I under stand a LBS needs to turn a profit and I'm not disputing that.

I have two LBS to visit and compare, and will buy most consumable inventory as; tires, tubes, and some other gadgets. Have found prices in line with on-line + S/H for most of these items.

Clothing, helmets, gloves, are usually more, yet, they seldom, (never) have my size when I am looking.

Have found very good bargains on sale tables for other gadgets, as open box lights, some tools (returned), even a CatsEye (?) forget the model comp, had more features than I could use, and BnL took off my hands at same rate he was going to buy on-line:rolleyes: (his idea to be fair)

Actually waiting for their spring 20% off coupon for accessories/clothing, as I have eye on rear rack, additional tires/tubes for a rebuild, and rack bag, and also locking hitch pin for Thule bike rack, (their price is higher than online for this item, but same if I pay high S/H that all I have found charge.

I'll give LBS in town my business first, and even visit LBS in cities I travel, and even support them if I find what is being sought.

I always try to buy from a LBS when I can, unless its an item that I can't get unless its from mail order (Pitlocks mainly because no bike shop carries these)

Generally, once a place earns my trust, if they have a product marked higher than usual, I can ask about the price, or just buy it. LBS are one of the few bastions of uniqueness in the US, where almost everything else (grocery stores, general goods, computers, coffee shops) are just large chains.

I'll give LBS in town my business first, and even visit LBS in cities I travel, and even support them if I find what is being sought.

On the road presently, and found several LBS in Madison, Wi. Three within a few miles of hotel;
Williamson's the most friendly, and wide assortment of products, and range of bikes including Trek, Electras, Schwinn Selects, ....
Erik's appears to b e part of a chain, or multi-city-location dealer, with the largest selection of Specialized bikes and a some models of Raliegh on the floor. Accessory options their but prices not really competive, bike pricing was less than MSRP, as I could tell, and even good bargains on some '07 models, sitting next to '08s.
Also, a Trek factory store, wide selection of models and accessories, including a large corner of clothing choices.

Found a Mirror solution for my vintage Schwinn Continental at fair price.

If back another visit to Williamson's will be scheduled, and maybe Erik's if I opt for new rider, if my LBS can not provide solution. Also, found via phonebook, that DTwn has more LBS choices.

You meet the nicest people in the LBSs, also learn better options for dining, as I try to avoid the chain and fast food choices.

I research prices for whatever it is that my kid's latest hankering is... and buy at the LBS OR on-line depending on the total price... even though our LBS is 60 miles away, I'm in that neighborhood at least 2x per week. Broken stuff in need of immediate replacement? I call around to various shops to see who has the part; if no one has it, but can order it and have it when I'll be in the area, I'll do that - otherwise, it's internet with express shipping.

The LBS I use pretty much always gives me a discount - I don't even have to ask - I've been going there for about 8 years and have bought 2 high end MTB frames, one mid-range road bike, and lots and lots of shoes & clothes for growing boys (who have hopefully, thankfully, STOPPED growing!!) The owner at this shop knows that I shop on-line, and also knows that my kids have 5 uncles who send them bike stuff... But then, I also have great relationships with LBS owners in 4 other corners of the state that I don't frequent that much, but can still get great service at in a pinch.

I suppose I'm fortunate. My LBS generally has good prices, particularly when they order something for me. I buy almost everything from them. I always pay in cash so they don't have to take the credit card hit. I generally don't use their coupons, I feel the guy deserves to make a decent living.

I try to buy from them. The owner is a friend - if I know he can't come close to something online, I don't even mention it or look while I'm there. I've also been shafted - he'll always give at least 20% off, but I've been rung up when his wife or daughter-in-law is there when I get stuck with FULL PRICE. Once his partner did the same thing - when my friend refunded the money, his partner said that "we've got to make money, you know." My friend responded, "yeah, but we don't have to make it all on one guy."

I also get most of my wrench work without a bill, charged for parts only. I usually make up for it by sliding the mechanic 20 bucks or so.

I just go to the nearby performancebike store... the guys there are pretty friendly and the prices aren't that bad on some things.