Mountain Biking - Boooo Shimano

Finally, someone wins one against Shimano. See the link below. Nice to see the small guy win one so that we continue to have some choice in the marketplace. Shimano has bought up almost all the road bike market as well as the MTB market. How many new bikes do you see at your LBS that have anything but Shimano. Almost none. They are becoming very exclusionary in their marketing practices. The Microsoft of bicycle parts.

http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/5247.0.html

I will be chaning my MTB over to SRAM once they have a year under their belts to work out any bugs.

And for the road, Campy Rules!!!

Did'nt SRAM have a trigger type shifter system a few years ago that failed? I agree with you and hope this one works so riders will have more choice. It would also be nice to see them take Shimano on in the road market.

Am not sure about trigger shifters from SRAM, but I do know that Shimano is doing everything they can to push everyone else out of the marketplace, including limiting the ability of e-tailers to sell their products on-line, especially if there is a discount. Same as with Chris King products. Tried and true Japanese marketing 101. Sell with as little margin as needed to survive until you dominate the market and then take over and price and sell as you wish.

Don't wait. The sram trigger shifters are awesome. At teh Interbike outdoor demo, where bikes get ridden hard and put up dusty, All of the various bikes I rode that had these shifters perfromed flawlessly. Mind you, these were not bikes from the SRAM booth, but bikes from various other companies.

The bugs are OUT and the shifters are IN.

SRAM has always made great products with the exception of their older trigers. The new ones are nice but I will have to stay with my GripShift.


And for the road, Campy Rules!!!

Come on man!!! Suntour rules the road baby!! :p

All I can say is Woohoo!!!

I have no doubt they work. But what about next year and the year after that? I want to get some run-time on their efforts before I purchase. Maybe next summer after they have withstood the test of a full season. Word should be out on them by then.

As much as I revile Shimano's marketing strategies I generally can't fault their quality.

While I appreciate the situation, and understand your concern, your gripe is not with Shimano; it's with big business. Simply put, the number one priority of business is to maximize profit for the shareholder – all else is in a distant tie for second place. If SRAM were in the position of Shimano, they would do the exact same thing.

Guys, Shimano is not the anti-Christ, they act as all big businesses in their position do. The gripe is legitimate, but you are aiming your gun @ the wrong party.

While I appreciate the situation, and understand your concern, your gripe is not with Shimano; it's with big business. Simply put, the number one priority of business is to maximize profit for the shareholder – all else is in a distant tie for second place. If SRAM were in the position of Shimano, they would do the exact same thing.

Guys, Shimano is not the anti-Christ, they act as all big businesses in their position do. The gripe is legitimate, but you are aiming your gun @ the wrong party.

Unfortunately that is true. We just have to hope SRAM can get a good sized market (keep) in order to stick around. competition is good for us but bad for shimano.

bac - who do we aim our guys at, then?

I've been using the sram x series shifters for about 6 months now, and all I can say are good things about them, and I have beat the daylights out of them.

bac - who do we aim our guys at, then?

Hmmmmm, who dictates policy regarding business?

Simply put, when a business or industry is big enough to generate enough lobbying (aka bribing) - that business or industry does not have to play by the same rules as other organizations. Should we blame the people that are taking the money, and selectively applying the rules?

That would be my call. :) What is your call??????

I really like my SRAM gripshift they work well and I have no complaints. Honestly they are doing what the market will let them do, and doing what any big business would do to make the most money possible. If you have stock in a company would you want to hear them state that they are doing business to help other guys make more money then them?

In the end it is up to the consumer, if you don't like their business practices or how they operate don't buy their stuff and they will change. They are the primary source for deraileurs and shifters at this time, but you still have LOTS of options for hubs.. cranksets.. brakes.. wheels.. etc..

All should be dictated by the marketplace, in a perfect world. But, with the current protectors of all things business, it will be some time before we see anything approaching that. Will continue until we are drained of money, I guess. In the meantime, I will do what I can to support the little guy.

i know a few people who race semi-pro downhill and they all run sram. they say it's more reliable, cheaper and far easier to fix if anything breaks since it doesn't take proprietary parts. the chain is the first thing that comes to mind.

Off topic prediction.

Later this year, perhaps jsut before Interbike, Sram announces their purchase of Avid.

Just a guess.

Were I Mr. Sram, that would be near the top of my wish list.

a

Thanks for the post, i have begun going out of my way to find alternatives to ****mano already.

Off topic prediction.

Later this year, perhaps jsut before Interbike, Sram announces their purchase of Avid.

Just a guess.

Were I Mr. Sram, that would be near the top of my wish list.

a

Didn't interbike already happen?

yep just checked. Oct 16th :)

Durrrrhhh.

I meant next year.


I guess the year just ends for me when I go to interbike!

A

I will be chaning my MTB over to SRAM once they have a year under their belts to work out any bugs.

I will do likewise once I start breaking my new (last-gen non rapidrise) XT stuff.

I already ride SRAM and have for quite a long time. I've been very impressed by their quality. I use their brake levers (lighter than XTR and like 1/3 of the cost), shifters, rear derailler, cassette. If they'd make a full gruppo of high end stuff, I'd be riding a completely SRAM bike. For the most part their stuff is top notch. Good quality, and reasonably priced. Unfortunately SRAM isn't making any disc hubs either, because my Shimano XT rear hub crapped out on me after less than 6 months of use. The axle was bent, and all the pawls inside had been broken out. I weigh 130 pounds and ride cross country, so I have no idea how I broke the hub. I've only recently had problems with Shimano. I hate their new 9 speed stuff, but I'll have to admit that their stuff back in the day was top notch. But now I just think for the price you can get better stuff. And stuff from a company that's willing to make compromises with the consumers about what they want. We'll see how Shimano fares after they completely move to the integrated shifting/braking.

I will do likewise once I start breaking my new (last-gen non rapidrise) XT stuff.

Is everything going rapid rise?

Durrrrhhh.

I meant next year.


I guess the year just ends for me when I go to interbike!

A

you have a fiscal year of interbike...

My year is normal ;)

Sram shifters/derailleurs and Avid brakes will be on all my bikes soon. Mavic hubs and wheels, race face will be my new crankset of choice, Easton seatposts and handlebars, but for the road bike I cannot pay the prices of Campy so I guess I am stuck.

You won't regret any of those choices, Sam. All of those brands are top notch.

Not sure what you are paying for Shimano, but I just bought a Centaur group (the same level as Ultegra) from Glory Cycles for less than $530. That did not include hubs.

How do like the Centaur Paramount? Perhaps it is in my price range after all.

While I own it, I have not mounted and run the new Centaur group as of yet. However, I did ride an '00 Daytona group (the Centaur group before they were forced to rename it due to copyright issues) for the '01 & '02 years and put on about 8,000 trouble-free miles. Very high quality gear (as is, ugh, Shimano). I expect the same flawless service from the Centaur group.

I have twice that many miles on my 10-speed Record group of the same vintage and, believe it or not, have only had to adjust the barrel nuts on the derailleurs and brakes in that period of time (I did move the cable on the FD down about 1/8" to take up some cable stretch). I may have to take it apart and check it out to find out what is wrong. It simply never needs to be adjusted. I wish I could find a car or house or wife that was so trouble-free.

Thanks, I have to find a reasonable dealer and check it out. It will be a while before the DA on my bike wears out but it will wear out eventually.

One reason I bought now (and am accumulating other '03 parts that I can afford) is that my understanding from several sources is that '04 prices from both Shimano and Campy will be going up significantly this year. Especially as Shimano is clamping down on e-tailers and enforcing pricing policies. Won't surprise me to see Campy do the same. So I am picking up most any and all parts that I find good deals on as they come up.

If you go by the believe that Record is same as Chorus except for lighter, which makes chorus and Dura-Ace in the same league. The price difference between equivelent groups is very little. Yet people always say that campy is alot more expensive.. In the road drivetain we have two very good companies to select from Shimano and Campy.

Is everything going rapid rise?
Yeppers LX is next year.

Kev - especially for '04, as Chorus is graphite in '04. New Chorus looks like my '00 Record group.

I just hope that Campy will produce a new mtb gruppo some time soon.....

Thanks for the economics lesson. Until now I had no idea that the Japanese invented supply and demand :rolleyes:


Am not sure about trigger shifters from SRAM, but I do know that Shimano is doing everything they can to push everyone else out of the marketplace, including limiting the ability of e-tailers to sell their products on-line, especially if there is a discount. Same as with Chris King products. Tried and true Japanese marketing 101. Sell with as little margin as needed to survive until you dominate the market and then take over and price and sell as you wish.

My comment on this? I think that sram should pay through the nose for infringing on shimano's trigger design. You basically said it yourself, paramountscapin, the reason that you didn't do sram before was becuase you didn't like the gripshift, and couldn't wait for triggers. So what did SRAM do? they made triggers.

Unfortunatly, triggers were shimanos idea! You cant just copy someone else's work and not get penalized. SRAM should have to buy the liscense to use the trigger technology.


I just hope that Campy will produce a new mtb gruppo some time soon.....

not gonna happen. there is too much money to be made from retro-grouches and shimano haters in the road bike market for them to take a risk and move into the MTB arena.

Yes, crashing_sux, it is obvious that you have no ideas.

Phatman - The greatest imitators (copiers) on earth are the Japanese. Am always amused to see the newest MB come and then see how quickly the Toyota, Honda and Nissan follow the styling cues with their high-end cars. They aren't very good with original ideas, but are wonderful at developing and refining.

Yea dude, I have those X.9 shifters, their a hell of a lot better than those STI XTR things.

Unfortunatly, triggers were shimanos idea! You cant just copy someone else's work and not get penalized. SRAM should have to buy the liscense to use the trigger technology.


Yeah, except for the fact that mechanically speaking, they're completely different.

For Shimano to win this lawesuit, would be like Ford Suing Chevy for making a pickup truck that has 4wd... It's absolutely childish of them, and being a monopoly is crappy. Boo Shimano, and down with their crappy integration of everything.

GO SRAM....

Yeah, except for the fact that mechanically speaking, they're completely different.

For Shimano to win this lawesuit, would be like Ford Suing Chevy for making a pickup truck that has 4wd... It's absolutely childish of them, and being a monopoly is crappy. Boo Shimano, and down with their crappy integration of everything.

GO SRAM....


Well said, I agree completely! The fact that they look similar doesnt mean that they work similar, hell,.....shimano will soon sue FSA/Truvativ/Raceface and others for making cranksets!!!!!! They all copied shimano's design....arms spider and rings!!!!!!

WARNING. No one is to design or more importantly try to sell a mountain bike component except if it is a shimano! All mtb parts were invented by shimano, and using,selling,buying anything else is ILLEGAL!

Violators will be shot!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

math2p14 - Here you are. The full Campy MTB gruppo on eBay. They come up ever so often. Believe this was the last iteration.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3638572055

Yeah, except for the fact that mechanically speaking, they're completely different.

For Shimano to win this lawesuit, would be like Ford Suing Chevy for making a pickup truck that has 4wd... It's absolutely childish of them, and being a monopoly is crappy. Boo Shimano, and down with their crappy integration of everything.

GO SRAM....
No. it would be like ford suing chevy for using the SAME 4WD system that they use.

and all of you who talk about how different the SRAM triggers are, it seems to me like they look like shimano, work like shimano, but they aren't? Where's the differences, guys?

About the crankset thing, I think that shimano is getting screwed by the whole ISIS thing. the splined interface was their idea, and should not have been copied until the patent ran out. cheers to FSA and ritchey for buying the liscense for the octalink crank.

No. it would be like ford suing chevy for using the SAME 4WD system that they use.

and all of you who talk about how different the SRAM triggers are, it seems to me like they look like shimano, work like shimano, but they aren't? Where's the differences, guys?

About the crankset thing, I think that shimano is getting screwed by the whole ISIS thing. the splined interface was their idea, and should not have been copied until the patent ran out. cheers to FSA and ritchey for buying the liscense for the octalink crank.

SRAM triggers are by far superior to STI/Rapidfire or the new flipper ****ty stuff by shimano. Shimano just wants to monopolise stuff....so their new products are more monopoly-friendly rather than refined and developed.....they only use old ideas which they pose as their own...and then they move forward to sue others for making similar products....

Kudos to all the other companies that try to refine and develop products instead of playing with lawsuits.

SRAM triggers are by far superior to STI/Rapidfire or the new flipper ****ty stuff by shimano. Shimano just wants to monopolise stuff....so their new products are more monopoly-friendly rather than refined and developed.....they only use old ideas which they pose as their own...and then they move forward to sue others for making similar products....

Kudos to all the other companies that try to refine and develop products instead of playing with lawsuits.

Right on brotha!! :D:D

I hate companies that concentrate on trying to legally prevent competition instead of developing the best product.

Yea, so we are all in agreement that Shimano sucks and SRAM rules.

Make that CAMPY and SRAM rule!!

Wow. I'm really happy you guys agree...

Stupid monopolies sucks... DOWN with Shimano...

What we really need to do.. is boycott the sucka's..

Amen everyone.... GO SRAM/CAMPY..... boo shimano!!!!

However i still swear by my XT discs, but that said, they where designed by Grimeca...so they are shimano labeled...and not designed...thats why they are good !!!

you guys are pathetic. If shimano was to put something out that was significanly better and more innovative then SRAM or Campy, you guys would have your heads too far up your asses to see.

Ha, ha, ha. Such a silly little boy. Does your mommy know how you talk to adults?