I agree.

And indeed the cyclists would cause very little delay for even the first driver in the x group... but bear in mind that these are the same motorists that think cyclists are causing "traffic problems" when they (motorists) have to slow down from 35MPH to 20MPH for a commuting cyclist taking the lane for a 1/4 mile... that motorist is still moving in that situation, yet probably thinks "that darn bicycle guy delayed me for 5 minutes... "

So the driver in the first X spot sees the first cyclist and then the driver is ready to bolt from the stopsign... never mind that 10 or even 100 other cyclists moving at 20MPH will pass before his eyes in (29 feet per second/ 6 feet per cyclist X 50 cyclists (two abreast) is only... ) 24 seconds for 10 cyclists or 4 minutes for the entire pack... That motorist feels quite inconvenienced... they were ready to go from their stop sign right after the first cyclist passed... and now they have to wait... So you can see the frustration for that individual motorist.

Now of course if you put x motorists in, and add their delay, plus the delay of the individual cyclists starting between each individual X motorist... well heck you might be talking 20 minutes or so before the last X motorist finally gets through... verses the 4 minutes everyone waits for the peloton.

But motorists don't "group think." It is every driver for themselves... (you really see this in any merging situation with rush hour traffic... sigh. ) :rolleyes:

Sadly that is the case. Convince that lead driver that he only has to give up a bit of his time so everyone can move on smoothly, and hey no problem... but you won't be able to convince that driver of that... period. Otherwise folks would gladly car pool, or buy smaller cars or all sorts of things for "the greater good." But it ain't happening.

Look, I fully agree with you. Really I do. Hell I've done group rides... I see this argument very well... but the first motorist, or the second motorist... they don't care... It's all about the individual (and this country is founded on the individual... so this is a really hard "sell.")

Heck, motorists should love us if they ever really evaluated what cyclists mean to them... we are "one less car." That means one more parking space, one less merge, one less bit of wait on the freeway...

But no... we are "those damn bikers..." "They made me wait 4 whole minutes this morning while all those gay *****s rode their toys out on.... "

Anyway... I think I made my point... and BTW those 4 minutes would turn to "a half hour" in every motorists' mind. ;)

Gene, sounds more like the hang up about being delayed by x-traffic is with you. These roads with 4-ways are not roads anyone would take if in a hurry. In my observation there is no friction on these streets, usually just smiles and hand waves. And no I was not talking about 100 riders. Did you note I said 10?

Al

Gene, sounds more like the hang up about being delayed by x-traffic is with you. These roads with 4-ways are not roads anyone would take if in a hurry. In my observation there is no friction on these streets, usually just smiles and hand waves. And no I was not talking about 100 riders. Did you note I said 10?

Al

Uh, I thought you were also referencing the earlier thread about the cyclists in Florida that were the focus of the potential ban on some bridge down there...

I was really just playing devils' advocate, using the motorists' point of view... I would not hardly call fellow cyclists "gay *****s." I was simply pointing out how things looked from the motorist point of view. :eek:

Me, I feel any peloton can use any and all of any road any time they want... and frankly I would celebrate the passing "parade." :D

Ride on Brother!

Gene, sounds more like the hang up about being delayed by x-traffic is with you. These roads with 4-ways are not roads anyone would take if in a hurry. In my observation there is no friction on these streets, usually just smiles and hand waves. And no I was not talking about 100 riders. Did you note I said 10?

Al

Agreed. The only time I've seen friction is when a group blows through at 20mph and violates right-of-way. That behavior is what draws the complaints and the cops. When a group yields and proceeds as a group there are no issues - as you said, usually smiles and waves. I have never seen a motorist try to go between the lead riders and the rest.

Agreed. The only time I've seen friction is when a group blows through at 20mph and violates right-of-way. That behavior is what draws the complaints and the cops. When a group yields and proceeds as a group there are no issues - as you said, usually smiles and waves. I have never seen a motorist try to go between the lead riders and the rest.

This is my experience for 10-20 cyclists. 100 may be different, it would be totally unnecessary have a 100 riders in a tight group if just a recreational or training ride. Sure I often start rides with 100+ cyclist, but after the first mile clusters of 10-20 have already developed.

Al

Agreed. The only time I've seen friction is when a group blows through at 20mph and violates right-of-way. That behavior is what draws the complaints and the cops. When a group yields and proceeds as a group there are no issues - as you said, usually smiles and waves. I have never seen a motorist try to go between the lead riders and the rest.

Sadly I have heard of such motorists... while I was riding in a large group ride well over 20 years ago... it was a double century that went from San Diego to Long Beach on a Saturday and returned on Sunday. It was quite early on Sunday morning and we were just flying down the coast in a double line group. For the most part it was all waves and smiles... folks stopped their cars and waved at us as we flew through stop signs and red lights. There was very very little traffic overall. But there was one altercation... and that was a driver that was determined to go, and some following riders had words with the motorist. The cops were called and the groups behind were stopped and ticketed. I was in a lead group of about 25 riders that just were having a great time averaging over 25MPH for the first 50 miles back. We had no problems, but we were informed of the situation at the "finish" by the ride organizers. The organizers were chastising the early finishing groups for apparently not stopping.

But speaking of motorists that refuse to stop for cycling groups... there is always this old story...
http://www.cyclelicio.us/2007/04/san-francisco-minivan-vs-critical-mass.html

This is my experience for 10-20 cyclists. 100 may be different, it would be totally unnecessary have a 100 riders in a tight group if just a recreational or training ride. Sure I often start rides with 100+ cyclist, but after the first mile clusters of 10-20 have already developed.

Al

Actually we did a "ride of silence" memorial ride about 2 years ago that was about 100+ cyclists... we rode slow and the group stayed well together. We of course stopped for all traffic signals. I doubt any motorists were put off by our group of black arm band wearing cyclists traveling at a moderate pace. But you never know... as after all, we did "take the lane."

The fact is you never know what might upset some driver when they perceive cyclists as "in their way." I recall being nearly the only traffic... a cyclist, on an empty 6 lane road early on a Sunday, and being honked at by a driver that thought I should move further right. (I stopped and talked to the motorist later... ) The fact remains that in some drivers' eyes, we have no rights to the road.

Sadly I have heard of such motorists... while I was riding in a large group ride well over 20 years ago... it was a double century that went from San Diego to Long Beach on a Saturday and returned on Sunday. It was quite early on Sunday morning and we were just flying down the coast in a double line group. For the most part it was all waves and smiles... folks stopped their cars and waved at us as we flew through stop signs and red lights. There was very very little traffic overall. But there was one altercation... and that was a driver that was determined to go, and some following riders had words with the motorist. The cops were called and the groups behind were stopped and ticketed. I was in a lead group of about 25 riders that just were having a great time averaging over 25MPH for the first 50 miles back. We had no problems, but we were informed of the situation at the "finish" by the ride organizers. The organizers were chastising the early finishing groups for apparently not stopping.

Blowing thru stop signs when there were other vehicles there who should have legally proceeded first? Sounds like the problem is 100% with the cyclists, yet 'you have heard of such motorists'

Al

Blowing thru stop signs when there were other vehicles there who should have legally proceeded first? Sounds like the problem is 100% with the cyclists, yet 'you have heard of such motorists'

Al

Are we somehow talking apples and oranges here...

Even in your example of 10 cyclists, if one cyclist stops and the other nine then follow that one through as a group... did they not "violate" motorists who should have then proceeded first? (although it is pretty difficult to imagine that all 10 could not start and stop as a group... which was why I referenced a larger group for this discussion... ) In larger groups while a lead bunch may stop, the others following may be trying to catch the first group and go across as part of the lead group that did stop... so the following bunch was in violation, but chose to follow on the heels (wheels) of the lead group.

From what I have seen in large groups like this, that situation tends to happen often.

Even in a smaller group of 10, if the group is a bit strung out perhaps the first cyclist or two does a quick stop (not putting feet down) and the stragglers may not even miss a beat at the stop... is that not a "violation?"

BTW BF is really acting up this morning... so I may not reply back for a bit.

Are we somehow talking apples and oranges here...
.
So in your story in post #55 did the lead rider stop when there was x-traffic present? The way you wrote it sounded like even the lead rider blew thru. Sorry if I read it wrong.

Al

The fact is you never know what might upset some driver when they perceive cyclists as "in their way."
You are far too worried about this, dreaming up all the possible scenarios that may cause even the slightest big of motorist concern. I can't see how all that worry-dreaming doesn't affect your confidence as to your rights on the road.

It doesn't take much dreaming to know what Drivers will be understandably annoyed if behind a cyclist and it is not easy to pass quickly. Drivers will be rightfully annoyed if cyclists are in or blocking an intersection when they(motorist) have a green light. Drivers will be rightfully annoyed if they have to stop hard to avoid a cyclist when they have the RoW.

Everything else you mention is just too much worry for no good reason.

Al

So in your story in post #55 did the lead rider stop when there was x-traffic present? The way you wrote it sounded like even the lead rider blew thru. Sorry if I read it wrong.

Al

Yes he did... the traffic was present and stopped... I don't recall if we went through on any long reds... I doubt it as the traffic would have been flowing at that point. But indeed, we went through red lights.

Yes he did... the traffic was present and stopped... I don't recall if we went through on any long reds... I doubt it as the traffic would have been flowing at that point. But indeed, we went through red lights.

Can you see why on reading your description I didn't think the lead rider stopped to let x-traffic proceed when it was present:

"It was quite early on Sunday morning and we were just flying down the coast in a double line group. For the most part it was all waves and smiles... folks stopped their cars and waved at us as we flew through stop signs and red lights. "

I can see that the x-traffic driver may wave the group on after the lead rider stopped, but then I wouldn't write "flew through stop signs"

Al

You are far too worried about this, dreaming up all the possible scenarios that may cause even the slightest big of motorist concern. I can't see how all that worry-dreaming doesn't affect your confidence as to your rights on the road.

It doesn't take much dreaming to know what Drivers will be understandably annoyed if behind a cyclist and it is not easy to pass quickly. Drivers will be rightfully annoyed if cyclists are in or blocking an intersection when they(motorist) have a green light. Drivers will be rightfully annoyed if they have to stop hard to avoid a cyclist when they have the RoW.

Everything else you mention is just too much worry for no good reason.

Al

You know in such situations I find it particularly ironic that the last thing I was thinking about was other traffic... as there was frankly so much wide open road available for a motorist to quite easily pass me... yet the case was that the only user on the road chose to come up behind me and then chose to honk at me, the only other thing on that road that morning... which is why I do recall it so well.

This is also not the only time such an idiotic thing has happened. And no, I do not worry about such things as they are indeed really stupid... but they do happen, and as such, they are so very memorable.

As you point out, drivers become annoyed at all sorts of things... whether reasonable or not. Such as the minor delay of a group of 10 cyclists, or a single cyclist on an otherwise empty multi-laned wide road.

The real question is not why it bothers me, but why it bothers some motorists for such petty things, such that they feel compelled to honk, or call police or write letters to editors about "all those cyclists."

Can you see why on reading your description I didn't think the lead rider stopped to let x-traffic proceed when it was present:

"It was quite early on Sunday morning and we were just flying down the coast in a double line group. For the most part it was all waves and smiles... folks stopped their cars and waved at us as we flew through stop signs and red lights. "

I can see that the x-traffic driver may wave the group on after the lead rider stopped, but then I wouldn't write "flew through stop signs"

Al

No, indeed, we went through stops. (I'm not proud, but it sure was fun) But we are discussing apples and oranges here.

Let's get back to your group of 10 cyclists... do each and every one individually stop for each and every stop?

BTW my earlier comments RE: "100 cyclists" were in reference to the posts on the first page that do discuss larger groups such as 50 and 100 cyclists and the "large groups of cyclists" referenced in the OP, and later further referenced in post 23 in comments about Jupiter Island.

Let's get back to your group of 10 cyclists... do each and every one individually stop for each and every stop?
At 4-way stop: Lead rider(s) stop of there is any x-traffic and let first vehicle in x-traffic proceed if they arrived first. Following riders will proceed as unit when lead rider goes.

At 2-way stop (x-traffic does not stop): Lead riders stop and proceeds when clear in a manner that does not require x-traffic to slow. Following riders may or may not have to fully stop depending on sightliness and traffic.

At light controlled stop: Always stop on red.

Al

No, indeed, we went through stops. (I'm not proud, but it sure was fun) But we are discussing apples and oranges here.

Let's get back to your group of 10 cyclists... do each and every one individually stop for each and every stop?


yes.

At 4-way stop: Lead rider(s) stop of there is any x-traffic and let first vehicle in x-traffic proceed if they arrived first. Following riders will proceed as unit when lead rider goes.

At 2-way stop (x-traffic does not stop): Lead riders stop and proceeds when clear in a manner that does not require x-traffic to slow. Following riders may or may not have to fully stop depending on sightliness and traffic.

At light controlled stop: Always stop on red.

Al

OK, so in this case, the lead rider is acting something like a "road marshal" as I suggested in the Jupiter Island thread.

So what happens if the group is much larger... and while the first car is allowed to proceed normally, do other motorists after have to wait for the rest of the cycling group to proceed? If so, how long? (the quick calculations I did earlier show that 100 cyclists riding two abreast could lead to a delay as long as 4 minutes)

What are the odds that those "other motorists" (the ones that have to wait) might have disparaging opinions about large groups of cyclists... warranted or not?

yes.

Of course, and according to the law that is the way things work... but is it practical... especially for much larger groups...

Back in post 43 (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=6544851&postcount=43) I did some quick calculations that show that a group of 100 cyclists riding two abreast would take about 4, maybe 5 minutes to pass, where as that same group, if each pair of cyclists stopped and a cross street motorist then went, and then the next pair of cyclists stopped, and a crossing motorist went, could take as much as 20 minutes to pass a single point.

So one really has to wonder what benefits motorists more... allowing a group of cyclists to proceed in a group as "one," or to obey the letter of the law and have each cyclist stop.

Certainly the first couple of motorists benefit the most... as they have to stop no longer then they would for any other traffic stop. But that driver that is say 20 cars back... he might have preferred if the cycling pack went through quickly so that the rest of traffic could quickly get moving again.

Of course the most practical aspect would be if cyclists went say as groups of 10... ;)

So what happens if the group is much larger... and while the first car is allowed to proceed normally, do other motorists after have to wait for the rest of the cycling group to proceed? If so, how long? (the quick calculations I did earlier show that 100 cyclists riding two abreast could lead to a delay as long as 4 minutes)


That would be obnoxious. Anything more than the time for a large truck to clear is pushing it.

Al

I say 'yes' pragmatically because motorists become highly unreasonable
when trapped in their cars and motionless or travelling less than 55mph.
Thier perception is way different than the reality. So, even though they
might have to wait longer for each cyclist to stop, thier auto-warped senses
would tell them this is 'good' and the way those uppity cyclist should be behaving
not realizing they are sitting longer than they really need to be. I dont think
motorists will ever have a kind word to say about large groups, ever, regardless
of how well they are behaving. We have to take human nature into account
when advocating and bargaining for rights.







Of course, and according to the law that is the way things work... but is it practical... especially for much larger groups...

Back in post 43 (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=6544851&postcount=43) I did some quick calculations that show that a group of 100 cyclists riding two abreast would take about 4, maybe 5 minutes to pass, where as that same group, if each pair of cyclists stopped and a cross street motorist then went, and then the next pair of cyclists stopped, and a crossing motorist went, could take as much as 20 minutes to pass a single point.

So one really has to wonder what benefits motorists more... allowing a group of cyclists to proceed in a group as "one," or to obey the letter of the law and have each cyclist stop.

Certainly the first couple of motorists benefit the most... as they have to stop no longer then they would for any other traffic stop. But that driver that is say 20 cars back... he might have preferred if the cycling pack went through quickly so that the rest of traffic could quickly get moving again.

Of course the most practical aspect would be if cyclists went say as groups of 10... ;)

That would be obnoxious. Anything more than the time for a large truck to clear is pushing it.

Al

Well this is exactly what the folks in Orlando and Jupiter island are saying...

I say 'yes' pragmatically because motorists become highly unreasonable
when trapped in their cars and motionless or travelling less than 55mph.
Thier perception is way different than the reality. So, even though they
might have to wait longer for each cyclist to stop, thier auto-warped senses
would tell them this is 'good' and the way those uppity cyclist should be behaving
not realizing they are sitting longer than they really need to be. I dont think
motorists will ever have a kind word to say about large groups, ever, regardless
of how well they are behaving. We have to take human nature into account
when advocating and bargaining for rights.

Where do you have 4-way stops on 55mph streets?

While it may make you feel better to belittle other drivers it doesn't help to always assume such idiocy. Even a human 'trapped' in a car can tell that 10 cyclists clear a 4-way stop in about the same speed as a car.

Al

All I can say is you need to come here, to WPB and ride.
Do a search on this area, or the cyclist kill rate and road rage ratings
and it will not be 'idiocy'. I dont know if there are any posted 55mph
with 4-way stops but on my route cars easily go 55 on 4-way SS roads.
This is one of the reasons this forum gets ugly and stuff cant be discussed
rationally. People think what happens in thier tiny sphere of reality is the
way it is all over.

All I can say is you need to come here, to WPB and ride.
Do a search on this area, or the cyclist kill rate and road rage ratings
and it will not be 'idiocy'. I dont know if there are any posted 55mph
with 4-way stops but on my route cars easily go 55 on 4-way SS roads.
This is one of the reasons this forum gets ugly and stuff cant be discussed
rationally. People think what happens in thier tiny sphere of reality is the
way it is all over.

The cyclist fatality rate is per general population. If cycling is as popular in the area as the news and this issue has made it out to be (after all FL is great to ride in year round) then I don't see the fatality rate per general population to be significantly higher than any other place, even other suburban areas with year round sun.

What are the posted speeds on roads with 4-ways stops?

Al

The cyclist fatality rate is per general population. If cycling is as popular in the area as the news and this issue has made it out to be (after all FL is great to ride in year round) then I don't see the fatality rate per general population to be significantly higher than any other place, even other suburban areas with year round sun.

Al

Could it again simply be the motorists' perception of things... as I tried to indicate (apparently rather poorly) in several posts...

Just like those motorists that chose to honk at me, in spite of the road being empty... (no, I mean EMPTY)
Their perception was that a lone cyclist was blocking their way, when the reality is quite different.

In this Florida situation perhaps the motorists are blowing things all out of proportion to the reality that maybe on a quiet Sunday a group of cyclists rode by and someone had to wait at a stop sign longer then usual... say longer then they would have to wait for a large truck to go by. :rolleyes:

I agree that the only law the cyclist broke was running the stop sign.

But I also wonder if the cops would have been happy if the cyclist singled up and each one came to a complete stop as each came to the stop sign. Think how long that would have taken.

I agree that the only law the cyclist broke was running the stop sign.

But I also wonder if the cops would have been happy if the cyclist singled up and each one came to a complete stop as each came to the stop sign. Think how long that would have taken.

... or the motorists. How happy would they have been...

Could it again simply be the motorists' perception of things... as I tried to indicate (apparently rather poorly) in several posts...

Just like those motorists that chose to honk at me, in spite of the road being empty... (no, I mean EMPTY)
Their perception was that a lone cyclist was blocking their way, when the reality is quite different.

In this Florida situation perhaps the motorists are blowing things all out of proportion to the reality that maybe on a quiet Sunday a group of cyclists rode by and someone had to wait at a stop sign longer then usual... say longer then they would have to wait for a large truck to go by. :rolleyes:


This is exactly what I tried to say too, Gene.....
I agree 100%. Regrdless of how one feels about other people basically calling them
a liar when commenting on thier riding situations, to discount human nature in our
affairs is naive at best. In congested areas a car is going to have to slw for something
very shortly anyways whether its a cyclist or something else. Cars routinely go Ben Hur
in between lights only to have to wait at the next light or bridge opening for 5 minutes or
so but momentarily braking for a cyclist is not as high up on the acceptable list as lets
say, texting, phoning, looking for holes in traffic to fill, etc........Go figure ?

This is exactly what I tried to say too, Gene.....
I agree 100%. Regardless of how one feels about other people basically calling them
a liar when commenting on their riding situations, to discount human nature in our
affairs is naive at best. In congested areas a car is going to have to slow for something
very shortly anyways whether its a cyclist or something else. Cars routinely go Ben Hur
in between lights only to have to wait at the next light or bridge opening for 5 minutes or
so but momentarily braking for a cyclist is not as high up on the acceptable list as lets
say, texting, phoning, looking for holes in traffic to fill, etc........Go figure ?

Yup... I agree with you fully... as I have had situations when motorists have had wide open roads and yet chose to get behind the only cyclist on the multi-lane road and honk. Apparently those motorists just had to complain about "something."

Yup... I agree with you fully... as I have had situations when motorists have had wide open roads and yet chose to get behind the only cyclist on the multi-lane road and honk. Apparently those motorists just had to complain about "something."

Have you ever been to China, Gene? For that matter, have you ever driven in Philadelphia or any other major Northeast city? You really need to get over this obsession with motorists honking their horns. It's just something people do for whatever reason, probably the same reason that some people talk obnoxiously loud in public on their cellphones (they like to feel like they are being heard).

Have you ever been to China, Gene? For that matter, have you ever driven in Philadelphia or any other major Northeast city? You really need to get over this obsession with motorists honking their horns. It's just something people do for whatever reason, probably the same reason that some people talk obnoxiously loud in public on their cellphones (they like to feel like they are being heard).

Been to China... never been to Philly.

I've been able to talk to some of those folks that honk and I've found that they generally have no understanding of cyclists rights... so frankly I feel that the problem is simply one of educating motorists as to cyclists' rights to the road. Call it my quest... but I feel that is something that is missing from cycling advocacy...

There is too much ambiguity in "Share the Road."

This is exactly what I tried to say too, Gene.....
I agree 100%. Regrdless of how one feels about other people basically calling them
a liar when commenting on thier riding situations,

Lem, I missed this. Who is calling who a liar in this situation? I thought the cyclists were documented breaking laws.

Been to China... never been to Philly.

I've been able to talk to some of those folks that honk and I've found that they generally have no understanding of cyclists rights... so frankly I feel that the problem is simply one of educating motorists as to cyclists' rights to the road. Call it my quest... but I feel that is something that is missing from cycling advocacy...

There is too much ambiguity in "Share the Road."

Where have you been in China? All I know is that every city I was in, honking was incessant. People honked at anything and everything. It was some form of expression that they seemed to enjoy considering how much they did it. Is it that hard to imagine that those few people in the US who honk just enjoy honking and would probably honk at anything that slowed them down, but you just happen to be what's there so you got honked at? No offense but if your quest to educate motorists ends with "don't honk at cyclists" you'll have fallen far short of any meaningful achievement.

Where have you been in China? All I know is that every city I was in, honking was incessant. People honked at anything and everything. It was some form of expression that they seemed to enjoy considering how much they did it. Is it that hard to imagine that those few people in the US who honk just enjoy honking and would probably honk at anything that slowed them down, but you just happen to be what's there so you got honked at? No offense but if your quest to educate motorists ends with "don't honk at cyclists" you'll have fallen far short of any meaningful achievement.

And everywhere I was in China, had plenty of traffic to justify the honking... :D

But one single bike on wide empty street does not justify honking. :(

Keep it in context... I would also expect honking on most NYC streets... I would not expect it in an otherwise wide (6 lanes) empty street with the only traffic being the one motorist who chose to honk, and a lone cyclist.

I am not adverse to honking, I am adverse to honking for no reason... that is otherwise known as harassment. My quest is to get motorists to accept cyclists as regular traffic... if that includes honking on otherwise empty roads, that would certainly surprise me... as an auto driver I have never had that happen. If I as a cyclist am acting as a driver of a vehicle, the the same context should apply to me.

********************************************************************

BTW for the record, I was in Hangzhou and Shanghai. I spent a week in HZ three different times. I never could quite get the hang of even properly walking across the street in heavy traffic... such are the customs so different. I was always told to "not look at driver," as apparently then, crossing became my responsibility. I was also in Hong Kong long before it went back to China... but that was a different situation.

Lines on the road were no more then mere suggestions... and size did matter. Taxi rides were thrilling. :eek:

It was an interesting glimpse into a culture that was off limits prior to the Nixon years. Food was nothing like one might have expected from eating "Chinese" here in the US. (although there are restaurants here that do serve authentic Chinese... from various regions... the typical "chinese-american" stuff was not available.)

Just 'cause someone honks at you doesn't mean they don't know that you have a right to use the road.

Just 'cause someone honks at you doesn't mean they don't know that you have a right to use the road.

As I mentioned earlier, I have been able to confront some of the motorists that have honked at me... indeed they did not believe I was in the right place on the road and thought cyclists belonged "somewhere else."

BTW for the record, there are were no bike lanes involved.

Just lots and lots of empty street with plenty of other lanes for motorists to use. (but apparently they wanted my lane... :eek: )

Frankly I can't wait for it to happen again... as next time it happens, I will simply signal and move left (properly of course)... into the next lane. :D

Gotta start doing those early Sunday rides again. ;)

summertime.... and the livin' is easy...

And everywhere I was in China, had plenty of traffic to justify the honking... :D

But one single bike on wide empty street does not justify honking. :(

Keep it in context... I would also expect honking on most NYC streets... I would not expect it in an otherwise wide (6 lanes) empty street with the only traffic being the one motorist who chose to honk, and a lone cyclist.

I was on my way home from the Shanghai office one night with the facility manager. It was really late after a long conference call with the US office (after 12am China time) and we're on an otherwise empty freeway. There's a motorist driving slowly apparently trying to decide which ramp to take. There's an open lane to the left and right but we happen to be in the same lane. What does my co-worker do? Run right up on his butt and lay on the horn for a while, then decides to change lanes.

I posted a little while back about getting honked at by a truck driver for not moving out of the middle lane of a five lane interstate when he had an open passing lane to the left. On the return drive on the same trip (near Miami, Florida, btw) a guy freaked out behind me (I was in the fourth lane from the left, lots of traffic merging in on my right) because he had to slow down and change lanes to pass.

Do any of these situations justify honking? Who knows. Who cares.

I am not adverse to honking, I am adverse to honking for no reason... that is otherwise known as harassment. My quest is to get motorists to accept cyclists as regular traffic... if that includes honking on otherwise empty roads, that would certainly surprise me... as an auto driver I have never had that happen. If I as a cyclist am acting as a driver of a vehicle, the the same context should apply to me.

Either you get very lucky, or don't seem to run into the same nitwits that I do on the road. I've had plenty of people freak out when they were behind me on a single lane country road when I'm doing the speed limit plus some but going slower than they wanted to go. I've been tailed far worse and for far longer in a car than on my bike.

BTW for the record, I was in Hangzhou and Shanghai. I spent a week in HZ three different times. I never could quite get the hang of even properly walking across the street in heavy traffic... such are the customs so different. I was always told to "not look at driver," as apparently then, crossing became my responsibility. I was also in Hong Kong long before it went back to China... but that was a different situation.

Lines on the road were no more then mere suggestions... and size did matter. Taxi rides were thrilling. :eek:

It was an interesting glimpse into a culture that was off limits prior to the Nixon years. Food was nothing like one might have expected from eating "Chinese" here in the US. (although there are restaurants here that do serve authentic Chinese... from various regions... the typical "chinese-american" stuff was not available.)

I never had any problems crossing the road though I did get honked at plenty while doing so. Drivers over there drive aggresively but are very alert, or so it seemed. They often seem to act like they don't notice someone intentionally so that they can violate their right of way and get ahead (standing in line, especially in airports, is a similar experience). I wouldn't say that size mattered as much as who has the least concern for damage to their vehicle. I saw plenty of (motor)cyclists pulling the same types of ROW violations as motorists. We almost plowed over a father and son on a scooter on the way back from lunch one day because the guy just decided to ignore cross traffic.

Lines definitely are treated as suggestions. I won't argue with that.

Food was also interesting. Did you get to try condensed chicken blood? I had some before I was told what it was.

But one single bike on wide empty street does not justify honking. :(

Keep it in context... I would also expect honking on most NYC streets... I would not expect it in an otherwise wide (6 lanes) empty street with the only traffic being the one motorist who chose to honk, and a lone cyclist.


They could be working on the same thought processes that pedestrians use when they insist that cyclists ring their bell before passing.

I never had any problems crossing the road though I did get honked at plenty while doing so. Drivers over there drive aggressively but are very alert, or so it seemed. They often seem to act like they don't notice someone intentionally so that they can violate their right of way and get ahead (standing in line, especially in airports, is a similar experience). I wouldn't say that size mattered as much as who has the least concern for damage to their vehicle. I saw plenty of (motor)cyclists pulling the same types of ROW violations as motorists. We almost plowed over a father and son on a scooter on the way back from lunch one day because the guy just decided to ignore cross traffic.

Lines definitely are treated as suggestions. I won't argue with that.

Food was also interesting. Did you get to try condensed chicken blood? I had some before I was told what it was.

I agree with you on the size issue... the "least damage" situation was probably more the deciding factor... and large commercial trucks tended fit that category.

As far as the "not noticing" by the drivers... yeah that was what I saw too.

Of course the other rather amazing thing was the way that peds would just stand in the middle of the road and motorists would just drive past them as if they were on islands. It was a very fluid "organic" system very much unlike our rigid rules based system. The movies I shot on my little video camera do not do justice to what I actually saw.

They could be working on the same thought processes that pedestrians use when they insist that cyclists ring their bell before passing.

Could be, but the motorists I did talk to had some rather poor views of cyclists... this and conversations I have had with folks have lead me to the belief that frankly many motorists do not understand our rights to the road.

Cyclists rights were not taught very well to new drivers, and the laws themselves are relatively new... mid '70s... so older drivers may not be aware of them at all.

Younger motorists are getting better educated... but they may not understand the laws well either.

Classic examples of this are the police officers mentioned throughout BF that don't even know the laws as they apply to cyclists.

So bottom line, none of this shocks me... but it does point to an ongoing issue.

However, if I am going to cause a multi-minute delay for others and could instead, pull over for a few seconds to let them all pass, I'll often pull over when I find a good spot to do so, whether it's a driveway or cross street or something resembling a roadway shoulder. This rarely happens on the roads I ride most often but there is one road in particular on the way to my parents' that if I ride it during rush hour, I almost always end up pulling over to let a line of 20 vehicles pass me. The road is narrow, winding, uphill, and quite busy. I would cause a considerable delay for anyone stuck behind me for the full 2 mile uphill climb, and passing spots are so rare that it could easily happen.



I'm not questioning your statements, but in my 20 years of serious riding I've never been in a situation where a car would have to wait behind me for more than 30-45 seconds, and it's usually more like 10-20 seconds, which I don't think any reasonable person could call impeding the normal flow of traffic, since I often have to wait that long for motor vehicles turning or pedestrians crossing the street.

I'm not questioning your statements, but in my 20 years of serious riding I've never been in a situation where a car would have to wait behind me for more than 30-45 seconds, and it's usually more like 10-20 seconds, which I don't think any reasonable person could call impeding the normal flow of traffic, since I often have to wait that long for motor vehicles turning or pedestrians crossing the street.

I find it's unusual in the urban environment. But if you head out into the sprawl zone where development has outpaced road capacity by a decade, you can find yourself on a narrow 2-lane with a steady stream of opposite-direction traffic. Even if traffic is lighter in your direction, it doesn't take long for them to stack up.

I've never had to pull over as an individual, but have pulled over with a small group to let traffic pass. There is a threshold after which motorists start making insane choices to pass and endangering everyone else on the road. Around here, we're lucky if that's 30 seconds. We try to find a balance between our right of first come, first served, being courteous and preventing a catastrophe we'd be blamed for even though it was the fault of an impatient motorist.

And in the category of "no good deed goes unpunished:" We once pulled onto a shoulder — after 3/4 mile or so of narrow lane with no shoulder or other options — to let a line of cars pass. The first one drove along side us to yell at us for not riding on the far right of that narrow lane (note, he was impeding traffic to do this). He claimed to be a cyclist. After he moved on we got unfriendly parting gestures from the passengers or drivers of the 5 or 6 other cars. I doubt they were behind us for more than a minute (of course, self-righteous cyclistinferiorityman had increased the delay). This was at 8:30 on a Saturday morning.

How expensive does gas have to be before we can have some peace and quiet at 8:30 on a Saturday morning?

I'm not questioning your statements, but in my 20 years of serious riding I've never been in a situation where a car would have to wait behind me for more than 30-45 seconds, and it's usually more like 10-20 seconds, which I don't think any reasonable person could call impeding the normal flow of traffic, since I often have to wait that long for motor vehicles turning or pedestrians crossing the street.

A couple of years ago the wife and I were driving through Arizona and were on a narrow mountain road... just in front of us was a touring cyclist making his way up the grade. As we approached my wife asked: "what now?" I said "just treat him like he is a slow VW van." Her reply, "OK." We followed him slowly for perhaps 3-5 minutes, until the road widened and there was a decent shoulder. He pulled to the side and and we calmly drove on.

We had plenty of time to enjoy the view.

It happens, but not much in urban space.

I'm not questioning your statements, but in my 20 years of serious riding I've never been in a situation where a car would have to wait behind me for more than 30-45 seconds, and it's usually more like 10-20 seconds, which I don't think any reasonable person could call impeding the normal flow of traffic, since I often have to wait that long for motor vehicles turning or pedestrians crossing the street.

Depending on the time I leave for and from work, 30-45 seconds can be a daily thing for me. A combination of narrow roads, hills, curves, and oncoming traffic can often make passing difficult. Note that I ride through a suburban area on my commute.