Road Bike Racing - Masters Racers 50+ questions

One of my main long term goals is to be competitive in the State (TN) masters group (those guys are fast as hell)). I have been away from cycling for some time and have recently renewed my Liscense and am riding Cat 5 racing age 51..

My goal is to be in the top 5.. 50+ in this state before i turn 55.. I think this is attainable and reasonable. ( my past racing experience consisted.. of about 3 years as cat 5/4 about 15 yres ago)..
my plan is to get enough races (and results under my belt to Cat up to 4's by mid 2009...

(in TN you must be a Cat 4 to even enter a masters even).

then.... enter some Masters events.. but continue to race Cat4..until I can get strong enough to at least let those guys know I am there...


I am aware that almost all of the folks that race at the top level of the masters Cat are ex pros, and Cat 1,2's. etc...and have never stopped racing or riding really fast for any period of time... given that.. they have been racing for many many years in most cases I have a few questions


what can I do to ofset their compounded years of experience..?

has anyone actuall had the experience of becomming very competeive at this level.. started out or over at age 50?? what was your experience like?

does anyone have any advise.. .. lies... anything .... talk me out of it?

I started a bit younger, in my early 40's, but I'll throw my two cents in given that you're only a couple of year ahead of me. The advice is based on the realization that we don't recover like 20 year olds, a year, a month, or a day off because of a training mistake costs us much more, and mistakes that lead to injuries or over training are also much more costly.

-Get a coach, one who works with guys our age. A good recommendation from a fellow age grouper cuts a lot of mustard. PM me if you need a couple. With the Net they don't have to be local BTW.

-Get a powermeter, and pick up a copy of Cycling Peaks software to use with it. You'll get epiphanies about your workouts you won't see otherwise, and you can replicate things when they've gone right.

-Get Friel's Cyclist Training Bible and read it cover to cover, at least twice. It'll help you understand training concepts.

-Listen to your body. If you're tired, rest. If you're sick, stay the heck off the bike till you're well.

-Eat healthy

is this a bit?

I am saving $$ for the gizmo's.. (my age ..sort of makes me anti techno . (My first sled had campy toe clips).. but .. I realize that the sport has evolved.. and tech ...like .. power tap.. are the tools of the trade now... (I didnt own a HRM till last week)..
I am just learning to train using my Heart rate monitor.. at this point.. and with steady growth through the Cat 5 's and move to trhe Cat 4.. maybe my plan will include an investment in the power tap.. by winter/spring 2009 /10..
If I can stay healthy.. ..and move up the food chain.. and factor in races at the Cat 4 level.. then the benifits of a power tap..might be money well spent... in the next step up to the Masters.. group..

I hate to rain on your parade but I regularly get crushed by guys over 50, and they're mostly Cat 3s, and they've already done the 55+ and the 45+ races earlier in the day. I've gotten crushed by 50+ year old racers since I was in my early 20s, and often times in field sprints (I don't count guys dropping me on climbs, I only count when they beat me at my strength).

If, in three years of racing, you were only at a 4/5 level, then unless you've made some insane jumps in fitness (like the BF guy who lost 100+ lbs in a year) you're not going to be that much better. I tell people it takes 3 years to figure out how to race, and by then you'll have plateaued if you're not going to be a Cat 1 or Pro.

The guys who have 35+ years of racing experience (I'm 40 and have been racing for 25 years) know so many things that they've forgotten more than they remember. I constantly remember things when I see questions on BF (one of the reasons I poke around so much), stuff I've forgotten for many years. They know when they have to work, when not to, how to hide from every granule of wind, when to jump, whose wheels to follow, all sorts of tactical things.

In fact, when I'm in a race with a few of those 50+ racers (one in particular is 57, the other a young'un at 52) I follow them to pick up hints and clues. Sure in a head to head sprint I might be able to beat them, but when you deal with tactics and all that, they do really well.

Incidentally many of them race on their own. They may belong to a team but the team doesn't really support them - on the rare occasions they have a teammate in the race, they get no leadouts, no chases, no nothing. If they want to chase a break, they chase. If they want to attack, they attack. They are their own domestiques and lieutenants. You know, Team Me Myself And I. And they do well.

Having said that, I think one way of beating (most of) them is to be an insanely good time trialer and never show your hand. In other words you go to all these races, race like pack fodder, do lots of stupid long pulls (training), but you never make the break, you never place unless you manage a sprint. But the whole time you're working on being able to average 28 mph for a while, like 10-15 miles. Heck, maybe you use some Scott or Cane Creek bars.

Then, at your target race, you take off 10 or 15 miles from the line. Chances are, if you play it right, everyone figures you'll come back. And you go and go and go and go. I can think of a bazillion ways to stack the odds in your favor (meaning that they let your attack go) but if I know them, so do they. They're all standard tricks, and the good guys will always dig deep when they get that feeling that someone is trying to pull one on them. So bring one or two guys with you, their teammates will help shut down the field and even if they beat you, you podium.

An important thing, I think, would be to have some teammates to ride and train with, to practice pulling like mad, and to get feedback on how you're doing.

good luck,
cdr

I'm 50 and I'll crush you like a velo gnat. If I don't get blown out the back door halfway through the race I mean.

I'm not so sure about c.d.'s suicide move advice, but what the hell, nothing ventured nothing gained. I've gotten like 4 top 5 results in my racing career, and 3 of them involved suicide moves. Twice I got joined by fellow kamakaze pilots and we got away. That's the other side to a what the peloton may consider a suicide move, sometimes you kill them. Generally if you're going to go off alone, it's better to do it late, not early.

still the occasional suicide move succeeding is different than being one of the top five in a very competitive age bracket.

The 50+ group in Tennessee is fairly quick.

+1 on Race Ex's advice.

I'd also echo CDR's point. You have set an extremely ambitious goal.

If you've never made it past 4/5, it's going to be a big leap to even hang with the Masters, and a quantum leap to be in the top 5 in the State.

Doesn't mean you can't do it, but its going to take supreme dedication, a very well devised plan, and some luck.

All these old aholes should stay home where they belong, get fat and get heart attacks.

yes.. I know this is ambitious.. Might be some confusion.. here .. I only raced about a year.. ( i could sit in a Cat 4 field pretty easily).. 16 yrs ago.....then i didnt ride a bike for 15 years. I have started back.. about 1 year ago.. and completely realize .. how fast these guys go.. and how much knowledge they have.. .. .. and I might be completely to ambitious.. but hey.. I am fired up.. and I am really likeing it again.... we will have to see..
I agree with the guy who said they were some pretty quick +50 masters.. in TN.. hes got that right..
...Dauuuumn... .. I have a long way to go.. but I believe (if I stay healthy).. I can be racing at that level at leaset ... in the field 50+ masters .. in the next 4-5 years.... we will see..

thanks all.. Ill let you know..

pcad...... are you a TN master +50.... ?? I know a few of those guys from back in the day.. ..they will soon taste blood in their lungs again..... when i get these hams.. wher i want em.. ....muuuuuhaaaahaaaaa

Good grief, Doug ONeil, who regularly is in the top 5 (and sometimes wins) the Master's 35+ races in NY City is my age. Fast 50 year olds do 25-27mph TTs (I do 22-24mph TTs). So there are some fast guys. But on the other hand, if it motivates you to keep racing and you do stay in shape, you will move up the ladder @ age 55 through sheer attrition. Will you ever be in the top 5? The only way to find out is to try.

That's my plan. It's fun doing TTs and races and seeing your name creep up the State and National USA Cycling rankings too. Top 5? I won't be there. But I won't be DFL either. And I take some satisfaction in being faster than some guys 20+ years younger than I am.

Tennessee? Shucks, I'm from New York. I race on the weekends in NY City.

The whole point of this is to have fun, get as fit as you can and ENJOY. The best part is being able to come here, trade barbs with the other Road Nazis, and make fun of them, the Freds, and yourself.

Good grief, Doug ONeil, who regularly is in the top 5 (and sometimes wins) the Master's 35+ races in NY City is my age. Fast 50 year olds do 25-27mph TTs (I do 22-24mph TTs). So there are some fast guys. But on the other hand, if it motivates you to keep racing and you do stay in shape, you will move up the ladder @ age 55 through sheer attrition. Will you ever be in the top 5? The only way to find out is to try.

That's my plan. It's fun doing TTs and races and seeing your name creep up the State and National USA Cycling rankings too. Top 5? I won't be there. But I won't be DFL either. And I take some satisfaction in being faster than some guys 20+ years younger than I am.

Tennessee? Shucks, I'm from New York. I race on the weekends in NY City.

The whole point of this is to have fun, get as fit as you can and ENJOY. The best part is being able to come here, trade barbs with the other Road Nazis, and make fun of them, the Freds, and yourself.


I couldnt agree more.. Pcad for president!!!!.. .. We have three Masters Nationals Champ's that live in my city.. and two of them.. went to WORLD F*@#$%^ing championships.. in Austria last year.... one guy got 2nd in 40 -50's and one got 6th in the 60+ (i think)
..

Kent Bostic is a local here.. jezus... he is un-real..strong

those guys just pretty much race as pro's around....here

I couldnt agree more.. Pcad for president!!!!.. .. We have three Masters Nationals Champ's that live in my city.. and two of them.. went to WORLD F*@#$%^ing championships.. in Austria last year.... one guy got 2nd in 40 -50's and one got 6th in the 60+ (i think)
..

Kent Bostic is a local here.. jezus... he is un-real..strong

those guys just pretty much race as pro's around....here

OK, but first my PR people will have to deal with the VietNam Vet Disrespect Scandal. Send Campaign Contributions to www.patentcad.com in the meantime. We promise not to misappropriate Pcad Campaign Funds to the Secret Pcad Bike Schwag Slush Fund.

OP,

Ambitious goal but there's nothing wrong with that. I'm 44 and getting back into racing after...well, ok, six months off the bike.

I'd advise setting intermediate goals as well as the master plan for world domination. These smaller goals can help guide your overall plan and allow you to make corrections as needed. Plus, the satisfaction of having attained a goal is pretty motivating.

As CDR points out, RECOVERY is key for anyone who shaves everyday. Learn how to tell if you are recovered. Learn how to tell when you can do more.

NUTRITION will sink you if you don't get it right. Don't assume your diet is good. Do some reading, specific to athletic needs, and look at what you actually eat. Get this right.

You may find my blog of some interest.

I was a Cat 4, and I was probably in the top 20% of the 4's at my best, which means I could have probably upgraded to Cat 3 if I had made it my life's ambition. But that was right around the time I had turned 35, my pals were racing in the 35+, and I saw no reason. I also viewed the 35+ as an instant way into a safer and more interesting race, without having to rub elbows in the Crash 4 fields any longer. Besides, what would an upgrade to Cat 3 have afforded me? I was never going to be good enough to be a 2, so I didn't really see the point. The bragging rights of 'Cat 3' didn't hold any meaning for me.

My point? My point is that if a guy was a 27 mph TT guy and a Cat 2 @ age 30, he can probably get back to being a 26.5 mph TT guy who rides like a Cat 2 @ age 50. You're somewhat limited by the cards you're dealt by mother nature. So take all this stuff with a grain of salt. The guys I see who are in the top 5 in NY in my age group are pretty much all Cat 2 dudes. Moreover, if somebody is still racing after age 45, they probably don't suck so hard at it, or they still wouldn't be doing it. Pcad is one of those exceptions: a talentless bike racer who simply enjoys it. Are there other even less talented mopes than me? Apparently. I'm right in the middle of the 45+ rankings nationally in the TT (probably about the 60th percentile and moving up) and in the lower 1/3 or the 35+ probably about the 70th percentile, and moving up).

Here's my goal: to get up into the top half of the 35+ and 45+ nationally in the TT rankings and get some points and get a ranking in the RR rankings. That's reasonable. And here's the great part about amateur racing in the USA Cycling system: they keep everybody's results computerized and keep upgrading the rankings by state and nationwide. I find that interesting, and I feel I'm getting something back for my license $.

Ultimately I enjoy the racing, and while I'm currently mired as pack fodder, there is no other way for me to get fast enough to not be pack fodder and get a result. I can't train as hard as I get pushed in races. I've never been able to do that. So the best training for me is racing with fast 2/3 dudes who will push my envelope. I like the scene, the camaraderie, the stupid fast riding, the hairy descents, the grinding upgrades @ 20mph, hanging on when I thought I might blow, going to the front to help my team when I can, the whole thing. The only part I don't enjoy is getting up @ 4AM and figuring out how to get the starting line on time, warmed up, and ready to race. I'm pack fodder now. It's April. It's a long season, and I didn't get results years ago until after I had raced for a while. I've only raced 7 times since I started doing this steady again. I'm getting faster. I can feel it in the races and in training too. My stopwatch agrees.

Some of these guys who don't suck so hard at this, they can show up, race 3x annually, finish in the top 10, win their first Cat 5 race, do a 25mph TT on a Schwinn Varsity, etc. I'm not one of them. I'm just a Road Nazi wannabe in a Fred, Fred, Fred, Fred world. My local heroes have been guys older than me who were still racing: my old training partner Jack Angevine, who was the #2 45+ dude in NJ forever when we rode together every day (I was 35ish, he was early 50's), man, he was friggin tough. I currently know a local guy, Dr. Bob, who is 63 or 64, who actually beat my time @ Sandy Hook by 20 secs. or so. Man, that's great. I'm not nearly as concerned with my results as I am with staying involved in this great sport for as long as possible. Guys like that show me it's possible, I draw far more inspiration from them than from any pro cyclist.

Results can be important. After a while if you're perpetual pack fodder, you may just say 'F this' and bag it. I understand that, I want to stay with it, I do want results, that is the plan. In the meantime, it keeps me sane, it makes me happy, it keeps me skinny. Of course I'm still too fat for this sport, but at least my jeans aren't too tight.

I do want results, that is the plan. In the meantime, it keeps me sane, it makes me happy, it keeps me skinny. Of course I'm still too fat for this sport, but at least my jeans aren't too tight.

I do it to make people less than half my age cry out in despair on climbs while I do my best Eddie Haskell imitation, after which I yell at them to "Use the Goggle!".

FYI I started doing local podunk stuff in '04, my first USAC thing in late '05. I just looked it up because, well the memory ain't so good no more.

Instead of 'form' under my username, I'm thinking 'maidenform'.

I was a Cat 4, and I was probably in the top 20% of the 4's at my best, which means I could have probably upgraded to Cat 3 if I had made it my life's ambition. But that was right around the time I had turned 35, my pals were racing in the 35+, and I saw no reason. I also viewed the 35+ as an instant way into a safer and more interesting race, without having to rub elbows in the Crash 4 fields any longer. Besides, what would an upgrade to Cat 3 have afforded me? I was never going to be good enough to be a 2, so I didn't really see the point. The bragging rights of 'Cat 3' didn't hold any meaning for me.

My point? My point is that if a guy was a 27 mph TT guy and a Cat 2 @ age 30, he can probably get back to being a 26.5 mph TT guy who rides like a Cat 2 @ age 50. You're somewhat limited by the cards you're dealt by mother nature. So take all this stuff with a grain of salt. The guys I see who are in the top 5 in NY in my age group are pretty much all Cat 2 dudes. Moreover, if somebody is still racing after age 45, they probably don't suck so hard at it, or they still wouldn't be doing it. Pcad is one of those exceptions: a talentless bike racer who simply enjoys it. Are there other even less talented mopes than me? Apparently. I'm right in the middle of the 45+ rankings nationally in the TT (probably about the 60th percentile and moving up) and in the lower 1/3 or the 35+ probably about the 70th percentile, and moving up).

Here's my goal: to get up into the top half of the 35+ and 45+ nationally in the TT rankings and get some points and get a ranking in the RR rankings. That's reasonable. And here's the great part about amateur racing in the USA Cycling system: they keep everybody's results computerized and keep upgrading the rankings by state and nationwide. I find that interesting, and I feel I'm getting something back for my license $.

Ultimately I enjoy the racing, and while I'm currently mired as pack fodder, there is no other way for me to get fast enough to not be pack fodder and get a result. I can't train as hard as I get pushed in races. I've never been able to do that. So the best training for me is racing with fast 2/3 dudes who will push my envelope. I like the scene, the camaraderie, the stupid fast riding, the hairy descents, the grinding upgrades @ 20mph, hanging on when I thought I might blow, going to the front to help my team when I can, the whole thing. The only part I don't enjoy is getting up @ 4AM and figuring out how to get the starting line on time, warmed up, and ready to race. I'm pack fodder now. It's April. It's a long season, and I didn't get results years ago until after I had raced for a while. I've only raced 7 times since I started doing this steady again. I'm getting faster. I can feel it in the races and in training too. My stopwatch agrees.

Some of these guys who don't suck so hard at this, they can show up, race 3x annually, finish in the top 10, win their first Cat 5 race, do a 25mph TT on a Schwinn Varsity, etc. I'm not one of them. I'm just a Road Nazi wannabe in a Fred, Fred, Fred, Fred world. My local heroes have been guys older than me who were still racing: my old training partner Jack Angevine, who was the #2 45+ dude in NJ forever when we rode together every day (I was 35ish, he was early 50's), man, he was friggin tough. I currently know a local guy, Dr. Bob, who is 63 or 64, who actually beat my time @ Sandy Hook by 20 secs. or so. Man, that's great. I'm not nearly as concerned with my results as I am with staying involved in this great sport for as long as possible. Guys like that show me it's possible, I draw far more inspiration from them than from any pro cyclist.

Results can be important. After a while if you're perpetual pack fodder, you may just say 'F this' and bag it. I understand that, I want to stay with it, I do want results, that is the plan. In the meantime, it keeps me sane, it makes me happy, it keeps me skinny. Of course I'm still too fat for this sport, but at least my jeans aren't too tight.

Holy crap, Pcaddy. That's easily the longest post I've ever seen from you. Couldn't figure out a way to spread it out over 5?

It's interesting, though. You can actually be old and fast. There are those guys out there.

Holy crap, Pcaddy.

I will convey your sentiments to the Sisters of the Holy Order of Dura Achee in Ooofaaa Italy.

It's interesting, though. You can actually be old and fast. There are those guys out there.

typically the old guys are faster. they usually have decades of experience and are so socially misaligned that they simply can't give up a lifestyle where they suffer. the fields also tend to be smaller, meaning fewer places to hide in the pack. as someone else (racer ex?) pointed out the upper echelon can regularly school they younger riders.

when i got to work this morning i was honored with an enormous.. ponderous.. post from Pcad.. in reply to this silly idea i have of ever crawling out of my Cat 4 DNA helix..of... dispair.. the reson I posted the note in the first place was to see if anyone gave a .... turded up short...about having a go at.. the old guard of the Masters group.. I realize I have DNA against me....(although it has yet to be proven.. because i dont feel i ever put the early years into it)... and the experience.. and ..many other factors.. It will all play out in the next three years one way or another..

In the end... I fit pcads description.. I really have no tallent for this.. (not compared to the 50+ masters in this state... those are the ones I see the most....)...I have more going against me than for me..
I had a kidney removed on Jan 2... I lost a month of training..

But I am pulled to this sport.... again... . i pushed it aside.. 16 years ago because i really had to provide for my family.. my daughters are grown.. . and i am.. now...able to commit .....

I lost 40 lbs in the 07.. I am current 186lbs..

my short goals are..

I race this summer and train hard.. learn recovery.. and nutrition better than i understand it now..

do the cyclocross season..

maybe find a coach.. I can afford.. ..and start prepairing for the 09 season..

target weight <175 lbs by winter training..start Jan feb 09..

we will see where i go from there..

Putting this thread out ... in here... was a little like a skunk screwing a porcupine.. i didnt get all i wanted but i got all i could stand...:)


Thanks to everyone who responded.. I will race in the southeast.. ... and be in it.. even if i cant get to where i want to be.... .. I like it.. always have....

typically the old guys are faster. they usually have decades of experience and are so socially misaligned that they simply can't give up a lifestyle where they suffer. the fields also tend to be smaller, meaning fewer places to hide in the pack. as someone else (racer ex?) pointed out the upper echelon can regularly school they younger riders.

Pcad marches to a different, er, slower drummer.