Advocacy & Safety - Pedestrians (especially dog walkers) should wear rear view mirrors

One common problem is typically a pedestrian does not know a cyclist is passing from behind. No mater what you do some peds are startled when you announce yourself, or when you pass. Nothing works every time. Some things work part of the time. I don't want to start another thread about what works, there are too many of those already. I just have an idea that I have not heard about before.

Another problem is dog walkers on bike paths, MUPs, and other places when bikes are allowed too. Including dog walkers near the road. Even with a short leash (the short leashes I have seen were 5 feet long, add a surprise pull to extend the owners arm and you have another two feet or more), if a dog sprints after another animal at 90 degrees to the walker, the leash can go right in front of a cyclist. Some of the self coiling leashes are 21 feet long (plus arm length) and the path and the grass on both sides can be blocked in an instant, if the dog owner is not paying attention 100% of the time. A dog on a sidewalk can sometimes make it into the road.

When I ride I always wear my "Take-A-Look" mirror. I always know what's going on behind me, I scan 360 degrees almost all the time. With my mirror I can actually look forward and backwards at the same time.
When walking along the grass next to the bike path the other day I realized that if I was wearing my mirror I would not have to turn around often to see what's coming if I am to move over. With the dog it's even more important to know what's coming from behind. My mirror fits on my glasses temple and that's where I wear it.

1) Pedestrians, especially dog walkers on bike paths should wear rear view mirrors and practice until they are proficient. I will be doing this.

2) All dog leashes should be a high visibilty color like international orange. They should also have reflective material in them (some do). Black leashes should be illegal !

I can't tell if you are serious or not...

"All drivers, pedestrians, and other riders, should be focused on and aware of ME."

You rear-end anyone, it's your fault, whether in a car or on a bike. End of story.

"But I honked at him before I rear-ended him!" "He didn't look before I ran into him from behind!" Try those with the police or your insurance compay.

People should be able to use MUPs and get along with each other safely without any special training or equipment.

Al

Funniest thing I ever saw was two dogs that recognized each other long before the owners caught on... The dogs just took off for the middle of the street and briefly ran around each other, tangling the leashes while the owners stood dumbfounded on the sidewalks on either side of the street... Then along came this car... :rolleyes:

I can't tell if you are serious or not...

"All drivers, pedestrians, and other riders, should be focused on and aware of ME."

You rear-end anyone, it's your fault, whether in a car or on a bike. End of story.

"But I honked at him before I rear-ended him!" "He didn't look before I ran into him from behind!" Try those with the police or your insurance compay.
Who are you quoting?

People should be able to use MUPs and get along with each other safely without any special training or equipment.
Naturally, the people who would be motivated to wear a ped-mirror would probably be the same ones who pay attention on the MUP, and the oblivious ones would continue to be oblivious...

Those extendable dog leashes are the stupidest invention ever. It'd be better to not have a leash at all. A dog properly trained on a leash stays right at your side, and if they move, they get yanked back. An extendable leash is a sure sign of a dog owner not interested in actually controlling the animal.

It's more a point of making people aware and considerate of other people do in fact use these paths.
It's not being surprised when someone says 'excuse me' or 'on your right' or just hearing the sound of a bell ringing. And of course not tuning out to the world but tuning into something else (headphones).

What I have found is that when people hear these noises, they give a jump and move totally unpredictably which gives cause for some people to make no noise at all when they pass. Sigh.

Don't get me started on the three teenage twits I saw recently. Two on bikes (one on each edge of the road), jump-rope tied to one frame, spun by rider of adjacent bike, while skateboarder in the center attempts to jump the rope, with the skateboard.

All on a reasonably medium-traveled two-lane street also utilized by motorists, roller bladers, wrong-way cyclists, dog walkers with 20 feet leashes, serious road cyclists, seriously poser roadies, seriously out-of-it leisure cyclists, users of toy air-powered model rockets, users of toy rockets with dogs not on leashes, users of Frisbees with dogs not on leashes that might as well chase two spoked Frisbees instead, etc.

Oh, and golf balls + occasional golf carts from golfers who lost their ball across the street from the course.

-Kurt

Pedestrians (especially dog walkers) should wear rear view mirrors ???
I am a pedestrian dog walker and my issue is Bicyclists that try and come up
behind me at speed with little to no warning on the city sidewalks. I live in Regina,
Saskatchewan, Canada where it is illegal for a bicycle with a wheel diameter that
is greater than 400mm (16") to ride on the sidewalk. An adult on a mountain bike
coming up behind me to try and pass me at speed on a 4' wide sidewalk isn't
doing either of us a favor when I don't know he's coming (I'm thinking of a specific
incident within the last week) and I'm walking a 70kg (that would be a 154lbs) dog.
I have to say also that children don't attempt this maneuver, but only adults with
an undo since of entitlement. "The Law must be meant for people other than myself"
crowd. Last I heard, black leashes where still legal as opposed Mountain Bikes on
the sidewalks in this city. Pedestrians having to have rear view mirrors? Wow...
I have to admit that the color of leash I use (it is BLACK but only 36" long) has
never dawned on me as being an issue. My dog is also black, but is that relevant?
I'm sure most Cyclists are intelligent and considerate people that follow the rules
of the road, but many aren't. Are the dog walkers on bike paths doing something
illegal, beyond not having eyes in the back of their heads? When I'm in a park with
bike paths, I walk my dog on the lawn by the paths as it's much safer for the Cyclists
and Myself, and the Dog enjoys it much more anyway.
I can't speak for elsewhere, but in this city where only the smaller kid's bikes
are allowed legally on the sidewalks, if the bicycles stay off the sidewalks like the
Law say's they're suppose to, it would be much safe for the pedestrians and in the
particular encounter I described above, much safer for the Cyclist.

these are gonna solve my problem
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c330/Lownslow302/ab428e01.jpg

I always take a mirror . More than once I have changed positions when some unknown cyclists passed me by. So far no accidents. My Take a Look Mirror helps to solve some of those problems. I always announce myself when I pass a bike. As to pedestrains. Its a mystery . Announce yourself and they freak out. Don't and they walk in front of you. One bike has somewhat squeaky v style brakes. I find that particular noise is a real give away. Sqeak my brakes a little before passing and they seem to respond.

4/10 on the troll attempt, you can do bettar.

Pedestrians (especially dog walkers) should wear rear view mirrors ???
I am a pedestrian dog walker and my issue is Bicyclists that try and come up
behind me at speed with little to no warning on the city sidewalks. I live in Regina,
Saskatchewan, Canada where it is illegal for a bicycle with a wheel diameter that
is greater than 400mm (16") to ride on the sidewalk. An adult on a mountain bike
coming up behind me to try and pass me at speed on a 4' wide sidewalk isn't
doing either of us a favor when I don't know he's coming (I'm thinking of a specific
incident within the last week) and I'm walking a 70kg (that would be a 154lbs) dog.
I have to say also that children don't attempt this maneuver, but only adults with
an undo since of entitlement. "The Law must be meant for people other than myself"
crowd. Last I heard, black leashes where still legal as opposed Mountain Bikes on
the sidewalks in this city. Pedestrians having to have rear view mirrors? Wow...
I have to admit that the color of leash I use (it is BLACK but only 36" long) has
never dawned on me as being an issue. My dog is also black, but is that relevant?
I'm sure most Cyclists are intelligent and considerate people that follow the rules
of the road, but many aren't. Are the dog walkers on bike paths doing something
illegal, beyond not having eyes in the back of their heads? When I'm in a park with
bike paths, I walk my dog on the lawn by the paths as it's much safer for the Cyclists
and Myself, and the Dog enjoys it much more anyway.
I can't speak for elsewhere, but in this city where only the smaller kid's bikes
are allowed legally on the sidewalks, if the bicycles stay off the sidewalks
like the Law say's they're suppose to, it would be much safe for the pedestrians and in the
particular encounter I described above, much safer for the Cyclist.


But the issue won't change, cyclists won't stop doing the wrong thing and there is nothing you will ever be able to do about it. It is not about who is wrong, it's about reality. You can't stop people from doing the wrong thing, who is allowed, and who is right, has absolutly nothing to do with it. The mirror is something you can do for yourself that will make a difference, and make your life easier and safer. Don't waste time trying to get all the others so so something you want. It has no effect on reality. You can ony control what you do. Try it, it works.

The legality of the color of a leash has nothing to do with what works the best. High vis colors work, there are times when black is almost impossible to see. Black sells better, many leash buyers don't think about visiblility. Just like newbie cyclists who don't understand high vis jackets and jerserys, it has nothing to do with style.

Hoping for others to do the right thing has no effect, other than wasting your time. You could make it easier for yourself tomorrow if you tried a bike mirror, especially if you use one on the bike, and are used to it.


these are gonna solve my problem

No it won't. It does not work.

I think it's just a matter of people loose consciousness of their surroundings when there is no penalty for doing so. If nothing bad happens to someone when they don't pay attention to what is going on behind them, then they don't watch for danger approaching from the rear. It's simply a matter of complacency.

Those extendable dog leashes are the stupidest invention ever. It'd be better to not have a leash at all. A dog properly trained on a leash stays right at your side, and if they move, they get yanked back. An extendable leash is a sure sign of a dog owner not interested in actually controlling the animal.

+1

Especially those that walk on the far right with the dog on the far left and the invisible extended "leash" in the middle. Death traps! :mad:

I think it's just a matter of people loose consciousness of their surroundings when there is no penalty for doing so. If nothing bad happens to someone when they don't pay attention to what is going on behind them, then they don't watch for danger approaching from the rear. It's simply a matter of complacency.


That's probably a very large part of the problem, one other part is that some people have low situational awareness and don't know it. I am surprised by others when they say they ride and don't know what is behind or beside them. I know 360 degrees almost all the time what is around me when I ride. The mirror is a huge part of that. I see cars a long way behind me at any angle, Long before I need to react.

When I walk the dog on the grass beside a bike path I have to pay attention to what the dog is doing and It's hard to be aware 360 degrees all the time. I have to turn around and look all the time to see what's coming on the bike path. Others cross the path to see my dog without looking. I warn then and still they almost get hit, wallking right in front of bikes.
One time I looked behind me first, then looked at the dog (in front of me) and started to cross the pavement. In the second it took me to do that, a cyclist came around a 90 degree blind corner from an intersecting road and totally surprised me when I looked back again. I started to step right in front of him, even though I looked back twice.

Using the bike mirror I can ride and know when to move left without needing to turn my head to look back. The helmet/glasses mirror is far superior to the bar mount. When you get used to it you can turn your head and see all locations behind you. Also your head can be in a different place relating to the bars and it still works fine. Not so with a bar mirror. With a glasses mount mirror one can see what is going on in front and behind at the same time if you scan properly. The dog does take part of your concentration away from what you are looking at. More than walking, and sometimes more than cycling.


Especially those that walk on the far right with the dog on the far left and the invisible extended "leash" in the middle. Death traps!

Correct.

Non extendable leashes are usually 6 feet or 5 feet, some are 4 feet. Add a two foot long arm to that and you get as much as eight feet, if a dog bolts sideways to chase a squirell, before the owner reacts. That's long enough to be a problem too.

An arm 2 feet
a leash 6 feet
the dog gets turned around by being jerked by the collar when hitting the end of the leash
easy 2 feet
__________

10 feet, more for a big dog.

Some cyclists do intentionally pass on the grass too.

Wouldn't it be nice if all leashes had to be 1/2" thick and a high vis color, and reflective too? They make them, I have one. It won't fix everything, but it would help.

I'm a dog owner, two BIG greyhounds. These guys scale in at 80 & 90 lbs. Even a 6 foot leash is too long. My dogs are very well-behaved, but anything can cause them to run. They can pop your arm out of it's socket easily. I give them about 3' of leash. Those 20' extenda-leashes should be outlawed. My dogs can be traveling at a dead run in 20'. We have to be aware of our surroundings.

Multiple use means multiple use. Requiring peds to wear rearview mirrors is not realistic. Bikes shouldn't travel much faster than a fast walk on a crowded trail.

I can't tell if you are serious or not...

"All drivers, pedestrians, and other riders, should be focused on and aware of ME."

You rear-end anyone, it's your fault, whether in a car or on a bike. End of story.

"But I honked at him before I rear-ended him!" "He didn't look before I ran into him from behind!" Try those with the police or your insurance compay.

Oh I don't think so. If you swerve into someone elses lane and they rear end you because of it it's your fault. Pedestrians should be given extra room and caution, but they're not without fault. Some people, literally, jump 6 feet across the trail with no warning sign. Others do it, consistently, when you announce yourself.

I generally slow down and give them every inch I can. If we hit, at least I'm not hitting them as hard, and giving them all the room I can. I gave up on announcing, peds are too easily spooked.

The easiest thing to do is to just avoid busy MUPs.

Once in a while, I have an issue w/ a ped not hearing me (I don't say, "On your left", as it makes the peds around here MOVE left -- I say, "Comin' around!"); it's about half & half with headphones or zoning out. Most will make way. If they don't, I usually hit the grass to go around them; if they won't share, I'll just show 'em why I have 5" suspension and fat tires.

I also agree w/ the extandable leash ban -- get rid of that crap! I really believe I would CUT one if the whole path was blocked by a right-side ped/left-side dog. A short-handled pair of garden shears would do it, or tin snips. Now the dog is loose to chase me? That's what pepper spray is for. Or water bottles. Or....

Once in a while, I have an issue w/ a ped not hearing me (I don't say, "On your left", as it makes the peds around here MOVE left -- I say, "Comin' around!"); it's about half & half with headphones or zoning out. Most will make way. If they don't, I usually hit the grass to go around them; if they won't share, I'll just show 'em why I have 5" suspension and fat tires.

I also agree w/ the extandable leash ban -- get rid of that crap! I really believe I would CUT one if the whole path was blocked by a right-side ped/left-side dog. A short-handled pair of garden shears would do it, or tin snips. Now the dog is loose to chase me? That's what pepper spray is for. Or water bottles. Or....
i got me some brass knuckles to show any dog whos boss. most people hear my bike coming(derailer is on the loudside because of its use as a chain tensioner) as for the rest my old air zound did the trick but lately it seems that theyve been ignoring it because they got their headphones cranked up fullblast or feel that they dont have to move for the bikes as the law states. i thought about getting another air z but i dont think thatll get the message through i could always use the airsoft guns but its hard to shoot one of those while riding my chopper thats why i got a set of legitimate truck horns.

"A PETERBILT IN THE WOODS IS A BAD THING"

i got me some brass knuckles to show any dog whos boss. most people hear my bike coming(derailer is on the loudside because of its use as a chain tensioner) as for the rest my old air zound did the trick but lately it seems that theyve been ignoring it because they got their headphones cranked up fullblast or feel that they dont have to move for the bikes as the law states. i thought about getting another air z but i dont think thatll get the message through i could always use the airsoft guns but its hard to shoot one of those while riding my chopper thats why i got a set of legitimate truck horns.

"A PETERBILT IN THE WOODS IS A BAD THING"


Pull that krap around here & you will get beaten to a pulp. Innocent bystanders would pile on. On multiple use trails in CA, the order of ranking is thus:

Horses have right of way over peds. Peds (including peds walking dogs and strollers) have the right of way over bikes. We are at the bottom. We have the most responsibilty to avoid accidents.

Good old black pepper in a can will humble all but the most determined doggies. Leaves 'em sneezing. Punching a dog could cost you a limb. Triggers the fight response.

Pull that krap around here & you will get beaten to a pulp. Innocent bystanders would pile on. On multiple use trails in CA, the order of ranking is thus:

Horses have right of way over peds. Peds (including peds walking dogs and strollers) have the right of way over bikes. We are at the bottom. We have the most responsibilty to avoid accidents.

Good old black pepper in a can will humble all but the most determined doggies. Leaves 'em sneezing. Punching a dog could cost you a limb. Triggers the fight response.
i like to see them try i have a CCW and most times do ride armed,i the trails around here the faster vehicle has right of way. most people stick their forearm to protect themselves from a dogs attack. the ideal first strike to maim or kill a dog is the nose or below the neck my first instinct is to break his jaw if he persists then breaking the neck is next. because of the whole bully dog incidents any dog attack is considered assault with a deadly weapon or attempted murder if the owner does nothing.

It can be difficult to navigate through the MUP furniture for sure. Try to be safe, and just assume that most everyone around you is clueless. It will save some skin from your behind. :)

... Brad

I'm a dog owner, two BIG greyhounds. These guys scale in at 80 & 90 lbs. Even a 6 foot leash is too long. My dogs are very well-behaved, but anything can cause them to run. They can pop your arm out of it's socket easily. I give them about 3' of leash. Those 20' extenda-leashes should be outlawed. My dogs can be traveling at a dead run in 20'. We have to be aware of our surroundings.

Multiple use means multiple use. Requiring peds to wear rearview mirrors is not realistic. Bikes shouldn't travel much faster than a fast walk on a crowded trail.

In most places anything longer than a 6' leash is illegal. I seem to be the only one who ever reads the town ordinances and state laws. No one knows about it. There are many of the extendable leashes here.

I don't get it. I always assumed if, on a path, I was coming up behind someone while on my bike, it is my duty to wait until 1) the pedestrian is warned and knows I am passing, and 2) it is clear to pass. Is the OP trying to pass dog walkers at speed?

I don't get it. I always assumed if, on a path, I was coming up behind someone while on my bike, it is my duty to wait until 1) the pedestrian is warned and knows I am passing, and 2) it is clear to pass. Is the OP trying to pass dog walkers at speed?

Me too. One of the pleasures of riding on such a shared path is caring for other users in excess of the way you want to be treated by others on the path or road.

Al

Multiple use means multiple use. Requiring peds to wear rearview mirrors is not realistic. Bikes shouldn't travel much faster than a fast walk on a crowded trail.

TA DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH! thanks FM, you raised my opinion of the human race---and specifically the cycling community subsector of it----by about 500% percent with your comment, which I patiently lurked and waited for.

Cyclists have to practice what they preach and adjust their speed, behavior, and level of courtesy to conditions prevailing on the Bike path or MUP or whatever.

It is hypocritical in the extreme for cyclists to demand all kinds of accomadation from traffic on the roadway while railing against pedestrian behavior on bike paths, and local news media always have a field day pointing this out.

roughstuff

I don't get it. I always assumed if, on a path, I was coming up behind someone while on my bike, it is my duty to wait until 1) the pedestrian is warned and knows I am passing, and 2) it is clear to pass. Is the OP trying to pass dog walkers at speed?

No the OP is not doing that. But millions of riders are. I've been watching riders do it for decades.There is no way to stop them. But you could see them coming from behind without turning around, if you are smart enough. If not, it is up to someone else to keep you safe. Do you trust them totally? All of them?

People should do this, they should do that, blah blah blah. Of course they should- duh ! It does not change the reality of what really happens. The responsibilty of any overtaking vehicle is to pass safely and not hit what they are approaching always. Millions of people ignore this every day. You can't stop people you don't even know from doing it. Period.
You can control only what you do. If you use a mirror when walking where bikes are passing you can make your life easier and safer. And safer for people doing the wrong thing by passing too fast or too close.
I stopped walking the dog where there are bikes. But I did do it, and just like a bike, or a car, a rear view mirror can make things safer.
Would you drive a car in traffic without a rear view mirror? If you ride your bike in traffic without a mirror get one now. You should always know what's around you, especially in traffic. Have you walked an active dog with anything passing from behind? Like a bike that makes no noise. It's like having the stereo up, not hearing cars, driving and having no mirror, while someone in the back seat could randomly open the back door as a car goes by.

Some bikes when not coasting on a smooth surface are almost silent. Ambient noise can easily overpower the bike noise, in some places.

There is only one person you can count on to help you right now.........that's you.

absolutely ridiculous.

Pedestrians have right of way with or without a dog.
Pedestrians have no right of way obligation to know what's going on behind them.
If they have a dog on a leash it's your responsibility to come up slowly on them and use a bell or your voice so they can get the dog on the side of the path and you can pass.

No need for mirrors. This works every single time: Slow the **** down and say "I am about to pass you on your right/left".

It is the "slow the **** down" part that makes it work. Pass safely, and no one needs mirrors. Hell, consider getting off your bike and just walking by. You can do that.

Nanny state = bad. Fewer laws = good. Smarter people = probably not going to happen.

In most places anything longer than a 6' leash is illegal. I seem to be the only one who ever reads the town ordinances and state laws. No one knows about it. There are many of the extendable leashes here.

You're right. I'm seeing signs posted specifying a 6' leash. The whole problem is enforcement.


As far as the faster vehicle having the right of way, I hope none of us gets ridden down Cossack-style by an impatient horse rider. And spare us the CCW stuff. A gun is to safety as training wheels are to bike riding; usually counterproductive. In my 40+ years of cycling in all kinds of setting from inner city to rural farm country the number of dog attacks stands at zero. A policy of avoidance seems to have paid off. Not as interesting or exciting to talk about as all the brave & terrible things I'd do in a hypothetical situation, but it does have the advantage of actually working.

absolutely ridiculous.

Pedestrians have right of way with or without a dog.
Pedestrians have no right of way obligation to know what's going on behind them.
If they have a dog on a leash it's your responsibility to come up slowly on them and use a bell or your voice so they can get the dog on the side of the path and you can pass.

All of those things are true of course, It goes without saying. It should also be clear that who ever is right has nothing to do with anything. Millions of people do all of this wrong every day. Rights don't keep people from doing things wrong. Read the thread. Almost everything you said was "absolutely ridiculous". It's not relevant. Who's responsible, has nothing to do with a mirror being a safety improvement or not being an improvment.

BTW It's a dual responsibility both the pedestrian can not swerve in front of a bike and the bike can't go too close or too fast. Everyone is resposible for not having an accident. But it does not matter.

BTW my state has designated bike paths where the bikes have the right of way over pedestrians. Pedestrians should walk facing traffic just like the road and give way to bikes.
Many states have MUP Mulit Use Paths where things are totally different. It's different on the sidewalk, here it's legal to ride on the sidewalk. Then pedestrians have the right of way and there are all sorts of rules for bikes on the sidewalk.

Local rules do not apply to the global problems.It's different all over the world.

Having a rear view mirror when walking with traffic coming from behind is a great idea. Especially if you are distracted by walking a dog. Obviously you have not tried it.




but it does have the advantage of actually working

Good point.
Apparently on the internet most people totally miss that concept as applied to everything. Everyone is concerned with who has rights. :)

I walk and ride frequently on a MUP, and am grateful for an audible warning when being passed. Locally, we generally acknowledge we've heard with "thanks". Just this weekend I was almost hit twice while on my bike by cyclists trying to pass me without warning at very high speeds while I slowed to pass a pedestrian-- and I always check behind me before passing. Sometimes line-of-sight just isn't that good. Pedestrians have right-of-way over bicyclists, and those overtaking bear the responsibility for doing whatever is necessary to pass-- on the left only-- safely. I am amazed how these simple rules (that are posted on the trail I ride) are often ignored by the cyclists who one would think should know best. If you want to ride fast and are annoyed with these simple rules, you should find a road to ride on and stay off MUPs.

No need for mirrors. This works every single time: Slow the **** down and say "I am about to pass you on your right/left".

It is the "slow the **** down" part that makes it work. Pass safely, and no one needs mirrors. Hell, consider getting off your bike and just walking by. You can do that.


Doesn't work. I slowed down quite a bit (on a reasonably well-traveled road, not even an MUP) recently to pass a father and his son ahead of me, pulled over as far to the left as possible to compensate for their 6 foot weaving, and politely called out "on your left." I was greeted with an explosion of vehement attitude and mostly incomprehensible profanity from both father and son. All I could make out was some form of discontent with the phrase "on your left."

Kept on my way, didn't say a word. Some folks will thank you for O.Y.L., some folks will never be satisfied. If they're not satisfied, just keep on riding.

-Kurt

absolutely ridiculous.

Pedestrians have right of way with or without a dog.
Pedestrians have no right of way obligation to know what's going on behind them.
If they have a dog on a leash it's your responsibility to come up slowly on them and use a bell or your voice so they can get the dog on the side of the path and you can pass.

Depends... take for example the rules of my local MUP (picture attached). Then you see a dog walker with a 14ft leash: The dog usually wont keep on the right, won't travel in a predictable way and either the dog or the leash will be an obstruction. Some dogs and owners are not very nice and owners never clean after their frikn dogs. And all that is without mentioning the IPOD.