Road Bike Racing - Teach me about sprinting

I got second place in our first thursday night training series race. I would describe the course as "rolling", but I'm a flatlander, so others may not think of it that way.

Anyway, the race came down to a bunch sprint. The finish was on a slight uphill. I had picked out the wheel that I knew would be challenging me for the sprint, and decided to wait until he went, with the intention of letting him lead me out. Unfortunately, he went earlier than I expected, I got slightly boxed in, and I couldn't catch him. It seemed like it took forever for me to wind up my sprint, but once I got going it was like a freight train :D. He petered out a little bit at the end, but I still ended up about 5 feet behind him.

After the race, I told him that I wasn't expecting him to go so early. He guessed he went with about 400-500m to go, and that he thought it was a good distance for the final push.

All of this leaves me with some questions:

1. How far away from the finish should you start sprinting. I realize that this may changed based on terrain, etc, but what are the general rules of thumb?
2. Is it better to wait for someone else to attack first, or should I initiate and try to catch everyone off guard? Basically, how do you time your sprint?
3. What kind of training can I do to improve my "jump"? I need to be able to accelerate a lot quicker to be able to react to these kind of moves. (this will also help with attacking to create a break)

Any links or suggestions on reading material are appreciated also.

Congrats on the 2nd place!


1. How far away from the finish should you start sprinting. I realize that this may changed based on terrain, etc, but what are the general rules of thumb?

It depends on the sprinter too. My 5s power is my strength, so I wait as long as I can. Sometimes, going early, getting the gap, then fading is the way to do it. If you catch people off-guard, you might have 1 second where nobody responds, and that can be enough of an advantage.


2. Is it better to wait for someone else to attack first, or should I initiate and try to catch everyone off guard? Basically, how do you time your sprint?

That's something you're going to need to develop for yourself. Try it different ways. See how it works out when different guys are up front. It depends on you, them, how hard the race was to that point, all that stuff. If you're really explosive in a sprint, you'll generally do better to wait and come out of nowhere from 75m. If you're more like Boonen, then 200m is a good launch point (even though he can go for longer, 200m is really long for an amateur all-out sprint).

It's important not to treat training races like a race. They are a unique opportunity to try something different with very low risk (you're not losing entry fees, and nobody is going to get upgrade points that you should have had). So, you have to utilize these opportunities to try something that you haven't tried before to see how it works. It's a rolling bike racing laboratory -- design experiments, formulate hypotheses, and run the tests.

There's a guy at our Tuesday Nighter who always rides in the B group. Never works once during the entire thing. He's not a bad sprinter, so he wins sometimes, arms in the air. When he loses, he pounds his bars like he lost his one shot at a Tour stage. This is not how you do training races. The times he's beaten me are because I'm trying something new, like solo breakaways, and I'm learning something. In a real race, I'd destroy him, but I don't let that get in the way of training. Besides, I'm in the A race 95% of the time, taking risks -- I just come back to the Bs to work on real limiters.


3. What kind of training can I do to improve my "jump"? I need to be able to accelerate a lot quicker to be able to react to these kind of moves. (this will also help with attacking to create a break)

Sprints. Standing starts in a big gear, drag races from 100 rpm and 20mph, leadouts with friends, training races, downhill high-cadence (200+rpm) sprints.

Also, 1m intervals. WRI™ are a good profile because they develop solid neuromuscular stimuli at the start, then anaerobic work capacity by trying to stay on it until 60 seconds.

You may not get huge gains in your raw sprint power, but you'll get some, and you'll get used to sprinting.

One of the most important aspects is to get REALLY aero when you're sprinting. Hands in the drops, elbows bent deep, looking up the road a bit (don't push your helmet through the air top-first).


Any links or suggestions on reading material are appreciated also.

Carpediemracing has some brilliant posts and blogs on sprinting. He's probably forgotten more about sprinting than I'll ever know. I'm sure he'll pop in with some links, but this should get you started:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/08/letters-sprinting.html
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/07/tactics-leadouts.html
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/05/how-to-beat-sprinter.html

A few analytical notes:

-I'll bet you were in too big a gear when you went to jump, and couldnt get revved up.
-boxed in = out of position. happens to everyone, but it's a positioning issue, also sometimes a nerves issue, which is another matter altogether.

1) How far from the finish should you start sprinting - too variable to answer, but generally, for me, my sprint is 150M to 200M - max. Beyond that, I'm cooked. I like to do a few warm up laps on a race course, or look at the finish if possible and try and find out when I'm between 40 and 50 pedal down strokes (l and r side) from the finish line and that's where I know my green light zone is.

2) depends, both work depending on situation, but ideally it partially depends on your answer to your question #1. I try to time my sprint distance as above, but it almost always comes down to feel. For me, when in a sprint, I talk myself into waiting as long as I can.

3) How to improve your jump (many variations on all of these and I dont know if any of these actually work, but worth a try):
-spinups: 30"on/30"off or more off, do seated, 1st 10 sec. get up to high rpm, 2nd 10" higher rpm, 3rd 10" as fast as you can turn 'em without getting bouncy
-microintervals: 15"on/15" off for 5' or 10' or etc.
-jumps: 10" - 15" all out efforts in a ride, with full recovery, 5' or so
-full on sprints: better done with others to lead out and discovery things about your sprint such as it's length, speed, etc. and more challenging than by yourself
-form sprints: high speed lower gear sprints focusing on technique
-power starts and stomps - see CTS training for definitions

mostly, it's a bunch of trial and error.

i need some serious work on sprinting. unfortunately, i can read all this **** on the internet about it but unless i get some real experience with it nothing is going to change.

Lith - you dominate when the finish line is determined by where the last person sprinting stops:D

i only dominate at not having a clue on whats going on around me

as far a where to sprint from it depends on your strengths, if your a big powerful dude sprinting from 200 meters by getting out of the saddle for that quick acceleration to get your gap then just drilling it for the rest of the time is a good option. A teammate of mine who is an awesome sprinter can sprint from 250 meters to go, he can put out 1500 watts for 5s to get that gap then will either sit down or keep it out of the saddle to hold that speed, on a flat course with a leadout he can sprint at 40mph.

Me personally where I'm not a sprinter I can pip one or two people at the line but I'm not going to win that drag race. I usually sit on someones wheel with 100-50 meters to go then put in that final acceleration.

Standing starts in a big gear, drag races from 100 rpm and 20mph, leadouts with friends, training races, downhill high-cadence (200+rpm) sprints.

Sounds like I need to do some higher rpm work. I generally spin pretty fast while riding (usually around 100-105 rpm), but I guess I need to work on just spinning the gear faster on the sprint instead of just pushing a bigger gear. I just get caught up the feeling of "yay, I'm pushing a big gear and sprinting", and sometimes I realize that I'm not spinning as much as I probably should be.



-I'll bet you were in too big a gear when you went to jump, and couldnt get revved up.
-boxed in = out of position. happens to everyone, but it's a positioning issue, also sometimes a nerves issue, which is another matter altogether.

Another vote for a gearing issue. As far as being boxed in, I'll try to draw a picture:



{leadout guy**
{fast guy**
{other guy1** {me**
{other guy2**
I was right behind the fast guy, since I knew he would be going where I wanted to be. He ended up going left around the leadout guy, and I followed him left, but I had to make sure I avoided "other guy1". by the time I got around, fast guy was already up the road a bit. I could have gone right around the leadout guy, but that meant that I would be out in the wind for a few seconds before I could (theoretically) get on fast guy's wheel, since I'd have to cut to the left in front of the leadout. Now that I think about it, fast guy set his sprint up perfectly, as far as blocking me out.

What would you have done in this situation?

You're right on with the RPM issue. I'm a bigger guy, and I'd always done better in 400 meter drag races because I just assumed I should be sprinting from my 12 or 13.

Now, despite putting out ~100-150 watts less due to knee surgery crap, I sprint better simply due to figuring out that I should be spinning up my 15-17 depending on the nature of the sprint. Try jumping on a little gear, hard and shifting up through the sprint as your speed increases.

Sprint distance - I read somewhere that a rider can to 20 revolutions all out. I used to go to courses and ride backwards from the line in a gear I thought I'd use in the sprint. If I had a lot of time, I'd ride backwards in 2 or 3 gears. Count 20 revs, look for a landmark. I've done most of the races for so long I no longer have to do that.

Then one year I watched a whole boatload of Tour sprint finishes just before a target race (to sprint like a pro, observe them, that's my motto). I realized most of them went much, much shorter in the sprints, like under 15 revs. So I readjusted my landmark to 15 revs (felt uncomfortable doing 8 revs - seemed too short) and although I didn't win, I did fine.

A notable exception is the Champs sprint in the Tour - they always go over 20 revs. It might be downhill or something, seems like the jump is not as important as the sprint itself.

Jump/Lead Out or follow? This is dependent on your jump.

If headwind, you ALWAYS follow until whenever you think is way too close, then you jump. In a slow uphill sprint (33 mph) I waited until 50 meters to jump and won by a decent margin (I posted some pics in the suffering pics thread). Guys just wither in the wind.

Tailwind, try to leadout if you don't have a decent jump. If you have a decent jump and you can go quite fast before using it, follow. The first jumper has the advantage because they have less of a chance of blowing up and the draft is not as significant, esp if the jump pulls you clear. In tailwind sprints I've led out from as far as 300-400 meters on very fast slight uphill sprints (Gimbles, 120 sprint, 42-46 mph top speed, go almost right after the exit ramp lanes after the bridge).

How to improve jump - pick better parents. From my experience, it's about 95% genetics. I never trained for sprinting but when I was 17 I couldn't bench 100 pounds (I weighed 103 to be fair) but when asked to do a test jump at a club ride/clinic, I could go from a standing start in one gear to 42 mph. I couldn't climb nor TT but I dreamed that I could. After that clinic (no one else broke 40 mph) I became a designated sprinter. It took some convincing that I could sprint but after I won a few field sprints, I was convinced.

Failing that, there are a lot of guys who sprint incorrectly and therefore don't use all their jump. Jump, in my definition, is sort of like a combination of peak and 5 second power. If you have an awesome jump, you can gap virtually anyone 10-15 feet in two downstrokes, maybe even just one, so it'll barely register in 1s peak. Within 3 pedal strokes you will be 20 feet clear and going away. It usually takes 50-150 meters for non-jump type sprinters to catch up to a jump type sprinter after a jump.

1. Learn to shift while under 100% load. I usually shift on the downstroke when I jump. In other words I slam the pedals down as I shift one gear higher. At Bethel, a sprint that normally starts flatter, goes up hill, then flattens out, I'll sprint in as many as 5 different gears if I lead out. You MUST have a good chain installation (it'll break otherwise and you'll face plant spectacularly) and perfectly adjusted gears to do this. My gears are adjusted to shift into smaller cogs perfectly. I have to tickle the shifter to get it to shift into larger cogs sometimes but that's my choice. I don't want the chain to hesitate when I want it to drop down to a smaller cog. Novice mistake when practicing this is to shift more than one gear at a time. You have to learn to exert 100% force on the bars and pedals and still have a delicate touch on the shifter.

2. You absolutely must have your bars and shifters positioned correctly. Forget the jacked look (levers up high, bars tilted to point to the moon). I watched guys crash because they can't even brake from the drops - stupid, stupid, stupid, and the guy broke a bazillion ribs and he's a lawyer to boot (so he's not dumb). You must be able to shift and brake without moving your hands from your sprinting position. Absolutely no question about that. If you have to wiggle your elbow to reach something when you're in the drops, move that something.
My rant on this bit:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/03/your-hoods-are-jacked-or-why-i-hate.html
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2008/02/how-to-bar-end-shifters-for-crits.html
Second one shows my bar/lever angle and how my medium sized hands with short fingers reaches everything.

3. Work on pulling up really, really hard. Lift - bent over rows, curls, butterflys, dead lifts anything and everything that helps you pull up on the bars when you're bent over. I don't work on my legs unless you could very infrequent 90 pound squats and 45 pound leg extensions as workouts. I regularly do pull downs, curls, bent over flys, dead lifts, and core stuff - situps and crunches. I also do work to protect my precious shoulder area - military press, bench, etc. I found my top speed improved with this type of work. My jump really didn't though.

I know when I'm sprinting hard because my stomach gets really sore. This hasn't happened to me yet and so I know I have more sprint in me. My max wattage at Bethel hasn't broken 1300 watts, but I was well over 1400 at the end of a 5+ hour long hot ride in California. I can't wait to unleash a "real" sprint.

4. Sprint. First have a good base. This means you can do a 2 or 3 hour harder ride without feeling new twinges. All the fatigue is familiar. Your body isnt' adapting to that ride, simply dealing with it. Then you work on sprints. Do lots and lots of sprints, with some kind of leadout. Failing a leadout, work on starting on a slight downhill so you're going 30 mph without killing yourself. Ideally you should find a 2 mile loop you can do over and over.

When you start getting a bit queasy and tired, do a few more. When you think you simply can't get going for another, do a few more. You'll be surprised at how resilient your body is. On days where I thought I'd do 2 or 3 sprints and then stop, I've gone to do 30 sprints or more (contesting half of them). I learned I could jump up to three times in one sprint - it takes me a couple months of sprinting to get that second jump, another couple for that third jump. But using a three jump sprint, I could beat much stronger Cat 2s and 1s by coaxing them to go earlier than they wanted to go, then out jumping them when everyone was in the wind already. I haven't gotten past a 1 jump sprint since 1995 but I hope to progress this year. It's like a video game. Gotta earn those jump bonus badges :)

5. Positioning/Awareness/Tactics - you seemed to have placed high very early on. This is good. But you should still focus on positioning both during the race and just before the sprint. Learn how to stay out of the wind. I posted a comment on a thread but felt it deserved some expansion so here it is:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2008/04/racing-how-to-get-out-of-wind.html

I'm glad that you say you got blocked in rather than saying "then I moved right, a bunch of guys went down, and I got second". Awareness during a sprint is critical. Sometimes you get boxed in - in those instances, it's often because you focus on the wheels directly in front of you. If you can look up just a bit, to the racers in front of them, then you'll find it easier to read the field. For example, when driving around a corner (exit ramp, bend in road, etc, where you can see the road for a while), I look around the corner, not at the curb at the apex. Much better awareness of what's happening up front. I learned this the hard way while autocrossing - my times were horrible until I looked 2-3 turns down the course. Suddenly I was much smoother because I wasn't focused on the cone 15 feet in front of the car.

A good way to practice this is night riding. Point the light up and forward so you can't see the 10 feet in front of you. You learn to read the road up there, not under your tire, and you focus appropriately. This is especially true when mountain biking. A very zen like approach, you simply go as fast as you can, reacting to whatever you see 40 feet in front of you.

You mention you marked the guy but he took off early. If you're on a wheel of a guy going at 500 meters, it's usually a good bet to go with him. He'll blow at 200-250 (given normal efforts) or you can blow by him at 50 meters to go. If you're not on his wheel then you may not have a choice.

Even if you're strong, you can't bluff on your strength. At some point you're going to deal with guys just as strong as you are and your bluffing will fail. Then your tactical savvy will affect your results, and if you're a strong dumb rider, your results will reflect this. I'm pretty weak as a rider, no matter how much I train, but I ride as smart as I can and I manage to get some places and even win a race here and there. My sprint helps, of course, since that's what I use to place, but smart riding never hurts anyone.

Unfortunately, it comes down to genetics for the all out jump. But by working the sprint, tactics, and technique, you can do a lot to overcome the jump.

cdr

Being the first to jump is always an advantage. Don't bog down the gear as it sounds like you did this. I have counted Boonen's pedal strokes 50 times or more and he always seems to be in the 15-20 pedal stroke range (as are most other's in the "sprint"). I have been told a sprint is 200 meters to go. Imagine 10-20 seconds of screaming pain. I would guess most sprints occur from 150-300 to go with 300 being a long or downhill sprint.

Just all hearsay though.

I don't really know how it happens, it just does.

What would you have done in this situation?

Not sure, things play out differently at speed and I wasnt there. Probably I would have gone left with fast guy, if you were on his wheel tightly enough, and things were fast, I'll bet there was a hole big enough to follow him. Maybe not, like I say, I wasnt there so hard to tell. Alternatively, I'd have gone right 100% effort and tried to get on fast guy's wheel asap to take a quick respite and jump him at 100M.

I knew CDR had >1000 words in him for this thread! Well done!

Not sure, things play out differently at speed and I wasnt there. Probably I would have gone left with fast guy, if you were on his wheel tightly enough, and things were fast, I'll bet there was a hole big enough to follow him. Maybe not, like I say, I wasnt there so hard to tell. Alternatively, I'd have gone right 100% effort and tried to get on fast guy's wheel asap to take a quick respite and jump him at 100M.

I knew CDR had >1000 words in him for this thread! Well done!

+1

I was waiting for his post :D

Thanks CDR!

3) How to improve your jump (many variations on all of these and I dont know if any of these actually work, but worth a try):
-spinups: 30"on/30"off or more off, do seated, 1st 10 sec. get up to high rpm, 2nd 10" higher rpm, 3rd 10" as fast as you can turn 'em without getting bouncy
-microintervals: 15"on/15" off for 5' or 10' or etc.
-jumps: 10" - 15" all out efforts in a ride, with full recovery, 5' or so
-full on sprints: better done with others to lead out and discovery things about your sprint such as it's length, speed, etc. and more challenging than by yourself
-form sprints: high speed lower gear sprints focusing on technique
-power starts and stomps - see CTS training for definitions

mostly, it's a bunch of trial and error.

What would 1min intervals be under? When you get up into the minutes is it 1:1 recovery? I have seen some VO2 stuff that seems to be 2:1.

What would 1min intervals be under? When you get up into the minutes is it 1:1 recovery? I have seen some VO2 stuff that seems to be 2:1.

Hopefully someone who knows what they're talking about will reply, but I can tell you that my workouts have lots of variations on the 30" to 7.5 minute interval length. My understanding from reading training publications is that we're talking about 3 different energy systems (neuromuscular power - NM, anaerobic, and maximal aerobic capacity - VO2Max, and different ways to overlap stressing each of these systems.

With stuff under a minute, we're talking about neuromuscular power being the primary energy system, and the anaerobic system taking over the closer you get to a minute. Stuff under a minute that my coach has me doing is typically either 1:1 recovery, or full recovery (5 minutes).

1' to 3': primarily anaerobic energy system, these are really hard. I'm typically doing these with half, 1:1, or 1:2 recovery. Except pyramids where I'll go "up" at 1:1 and down at 1:0.5, those hurt alot.

3' - 7.5': primarily VO2Max, these are typically (for me) 1:1 recovery

sorry if the terminology is buggered up, I'm just going with my way of understanding things.

Except pyramids where I'll go "up" at 1:1 and down at 1:0.5, those hurt alot.

Wow, those do sound nasty. I'll have to try that:D

With stuff under a minute, we're talking about neuromuscular power being the primary energy system, and the anaerobic system taking over the closer you get to a minute. Stuff under a minute that my coach has me doing is typically either 1:1 recovery, or full recovery (5 minutes).

1' to 3': primarily anaerobic energy system, these are really hard. I'm typically doing these with half, 1:1, or 1:2 recovery. Except pyramids where I'll go "up" at 1:1 and down at 1:0.5, those hurt alot.

3' - 7.5': primarily VO2Max, these are typically (for me) 1:1 recovery

sorry if the terminology is buggered up, I'm just going with my way of understanding things.

This sounds familiar to me so I think it is right. I guess I am trying to figure out the best way to schedule my workouts in order to do more of these. I know you have to start overlapping but I suppose I am a little unsure of which ones. Example
M - Group ride (not a hammerfest, some hill sprints)
T - Crit
W - figure some sort of recovery + spinups/high cadence
R - tempo/LT + surges (1-3min?)
F - tempo
S - hill climbing
Su - VO2 max

I guess I figured that the 1-3min and the VO2 max intervals are pretty killer so they should be on separate days (or do you do one, one week and the other the next) with a space in between (which I guess would vary if you can recovery more quickly). Can you do those intervals and then do a tempo afterwards (or like someone suggested, surge training, so you would do them with a tempo workout)?

I guess my other question is about hill sprints....and when is it appropriate to do repeated hill intervals instead of a ride that incorporates hills.

you train too hard.

After the race, I told him that I wasn't expecting him to go so early. He guessed he went with about 400-500m to go, and that he thought it was a good distance for the final push.

That is a very long sprint for the win, but I won a crit doing that before (taking a flyer off the outside of the final corner with about 300-400 to go), because I knew nobody would be expecting it. I knew I wasn't the fastest sprinter, but if I got a big enough head start, they'd have to catch up to me, and it worked. The next week, someone saw me in the same position and took off going INTO the corner. :eek: He got second and I chased his wheel but only got 3rd behind him.

I'm pretty sure most solo sprints are 100-200m, but keep in mind that team tactics (leadouts) as well as stupidly excited morons) frequently cause the sprint to start earlier and those who slingshot past during the last 100m usually get it.

Sounds like I need to do some higher rpm work. I generally spin pretty fast while riding (usually around 100-105 rpm), but I guess I need to work on just spinning the gear faster on the sprint instead of just pushing a bigger gear. I just get caught up the feeling of "yay, I'm pushing a big gear and sprinting", and sometimes I realize that I'm not spinning as much as I probably should be.



Another vote for a gearing issue. As far as being boxed in, I'll try to draw a picture:



{leadout guy**
{fast guy**
{other guy1** {me**
{other guy2**
I was right behind the fast guy, since I knew he would be going where I wanted to be. He ended up going left around the leadout guy, and I followed him left, but I had to make sure I avoided "other guy1". by the time I got around, fast guy was already up the road a bit. I could have gone right around the leadout guy, but that meant that I would be out in the wind for a few seconds before I could (theoretically) get on fast guy's wheel, since I'd have to cut to the left in front of the leadout. Now that I think about it, fast guy set his sprint up perfectly, as far as blocking me out.

What would you have done in this situation?

I'll elaborate on what cdr calls 'looking up the road' for your specific situation. If you were watching both fast guy and leadout guy, and in particular the relationship of the two to each other, you may have been able to predict that fast guy would go left. It is likely that fast guy wasn't riding directly behind leadout guy, but with his front wheel slightly to the left of leadout guy's rear wheel. Seeing this, you want to start to move slightly into other guy1 to give yourself room to stay with fast guy when he goes. Even without noticing this, if you have a guy on our left, and nobody on your right, move just to the left of the wheel in front of you. That makes sure that other guy1 isn't able to steal your wheel and you have the option to go to either side of fast guy when it is time to go.

Instead of what you showed, make it look like this:


{leadout guy**
{fast guy**
{other guy1** {me**
{other guy2**


Great posts and a lot of good info in here from cdr, wr and mdcatV.

CDR needs to put together a Racing Instuctional Video.. His lengthy post and blog reports really do help. Even the youtube videos!!!

Keeping a good wheel as close to 200 as possible is huge.
Knowing who is on your wheel is huge.
During a normal sprint when entire pack sprints at around 2-300 yards I'm in the drops w/finger ready to bang smaller gear between 105-110 rpm. I jump at that cadence and shift around 120. Rinse repeat until the throw at the line.

Example
M - Group ride (not a hammerfest, some hill sprints)
T - Crit
W - figure some sort of recovery + spinups/high cadence
R - tempo/LT + surges (1-3min?)
F - tempo
S - hill climbing
Su - VO2 max


I would incorporate a rest day somewhere in there.

I would incorporate a rest day somewhere in there.


I was just trying to illustrate what happens if you don't do multiple things in one day (i.e. where does everything go?). That's not my real training schedule.

Instead of what you showed, make it look like this:


{leadout guy**
{fast guy**
{other guy1** {me**
{other guy2**


Excellent. +1. It's how Mark McCormack won Philly one year. Everyone was significantly overlapped to the right (they were going around a fountain in a big traffic circle) so he and his leadout guy went left, went super hard. No one could respond immediately and by the time they did McCormack & Co were already on their way. He went from a long, long way out and won the race overall.

cdr

I was just trying to illustrate what happens if you don't do multiple things in one day (i.e. where does everything go?). That's not my real training schedule.

ah. makes perfect sense now. :)

Some training thoughts:

1. Jumps,53x17 5mph jump to 25 or so as quickly as you can. On the track 4 or 5 of these were part of our warmup routine. Really helps on the road too. Do em when rested and rest in between, youre not trying to train recovery here. Also teaches you better position and pull on the bars.
2. Flat Intervals Modified, Do em same speed but 1 gear lower (high rpm). Again make sure you get enough rest in between.
3. Motor Pace, find a riding buddy with a motor bike and a deserted road. Nothin like trying to come around a 40mph motor!
4. Weight Training, agree with training the upper body hard however I would suggest heavy weights for both Upper and Lower. This is a long process, not a quick fix.

Racing Thoughts. +10 to whoever mentioned knowing the right wheel to get on. You have the whole race to scout out who that is going to be, make the wrong choice and nothing else matters. When you start your sprint is sometimes a choice and sometimes dictated by the race (if you are on a good wheel it's a choice more often).

I don't really know how it happens, it just does.

Thats the best response. All this other talk is BS. Sprinting is less thought, and more instinct and experience.

Train for it all you want...
Do specific workouts...
Analyze wattage charts...
Figure out how to get leadouts...

That's all fine and well, but if you can't sprint, you can't sprint, period. You may get better, but there's always a natural sprinter around to beat you.

That's all fine and well, but if you can't sprint, you can't sprint, period.

I agree with that statement.

However, there are many ways to beat a sprinter in a sprint. It just takes insane amounts of fitness though.

In Tour of Nutley (a twin to Tour of Somerville but Nutley hasn't been held for a while), Cat 3s, the odds on favorite was a multi time National crit and track champion (in masters competition), a guy who would win 20+ races a year, place second 20+ time, etc, be forcibly upgrade annually, then request a down grade due to "a change training time available" (backed up by all these DNFs in Cat 2 races into May). Once a 3, he'd repeat the process, sometimes winning 5 or 6 races a weekend - he told one of his friends that $1500 was a normal weekend for him. Anyway he has the most insane jump, I've never seen anything like it, and he can win or place P123 crits. He led me out once, jumped away from me, and could alternately coast and soft pedal the last 150 meters to the line because he was so far ahead of me (I got pipped at the line for 3rd).

He was at Nutley and it just seemed hopeless to try and beat him. I ended up getting shelled, didn't have it that day, and watched the finish. A guy from CT, a definite non-sprinter, was still in there, working, we thought, for his sprinter teammate. But then the sprinter teammate kind of petered out too, so he was on his own. He tried to get away a bunch of times but couldn't escape the field. It'd come down to a sprint for him (I think a small break was way up the road).

On the last lap I watched from about 150-200m to go, trying to get an idea of from where the winners go. Here comes the non sprinter, leading out the sprint, game on, full speed, blazing out of the last turn. The ultimate sandbagger guy is on his wheel. I turned away, didn't even want to look, it was like gifting the race to the sandbagger guy. Then all my friends started screaming louder and louder for our non-sprinter friend. I look back, the sandbagger dude has no jump left at 40+ mph, he can only pull even with our tall, lanky TT boy. Over and over he tries to get by him but he can't, and apparently, at the line, our TT boy beat the ultimate sandbagger and won the field sprint.

Sprinters are by definition weak. That's why they generally don't win, say, Grand Tours. When Saronni won the Giro, he won it based on something like 4 or 5 minutes of time bonuses from sprints (he won by about 2.5 minutes total). But normally, when the racing gets hard, the sprinters go flying off the back. Fast twitch muscles don't have endurance. Let them stay with you to the line and a sprinter will be an odds on bet. Make the race hard and even in a field sprint a sprinter may not be able to do it.

cdr

I agree with that statement.

*Awesome post*

cdr

So you're saying that your friend beat the sandbagger by dialing it up a notch and keeping it there to wear out the sprinter before he could jump? And by the time where he *should* have jumped, the sprinters legs were already worn from the hard effort of keeping up with your friend?

Word...

That's awesome!

Train for it all you want...
Do specific workouts...
Analyze wattage charts...
Figure out how to get leadouts...

That's all fine and well, but if you can't sprint, you can't sprint, period. You may get better, but there's always a natural sprinter around to beat you.

Agree to a point. The problem lies with all the poorly or not coached riders out there. My own experience, I went from a rider type cast as a non-sprinter. Never really trained it, never tried to set it up in a race, and had piss poor results. Started working with a new coach who beleived I could develop speed and turned into a pretty good road sprinter. Matter of fact I got down to 11's on the Track in my 30's.

Sprinting takes natural talent, yes. But if you don't give that talent a shot it may not show itself.

I don't know if it's been said yet, but messing around with your positioning can make as big a difference as power does.
For instance;
Where are your hands when you sprint? hoods? hooks? on the flat?
Do you feel scrunched up? Laid back?
Do you throw the bike from side to side? Do you throw the bike at the finish? Can you throw your bike at the finish?
Do you shift while sprinting?
Do you sprint with your legs moving straight up and down like you do when you're seated, or do you bow them from the hips a little bit?
Are your elbows even with your hands?
Where are you looking?
How deeply are you breathing, and is it harder to breathe because of your positioning?
Are you still pedaling in circles?

Thats the best response. All this other talk is BS. Sprinting is less thought, and more instinct and experience.

and today it didn't happen :(

Thats the best response. All this other talk is BS. Sprinting is less thought, and more instinct and experience.

I respectfully disagree, although it seems like that at times. I wrote something about the chaos in my head in the final sprint. It went on cyclingnews but it ended up elsewhere:
http://www.aboc.com.au/tips-and-hints/aki-sato-on-sprinting
I wrote the above from the point of view of the zen-master-of-sprinting where technicalities don't make an appearance.

But in pretty much all races I've done well in I've had an idea of how I wanted to approach the sprint, where I'd jump, even which side I'd go on. Details like gearing take care of themselves, except when I end up running out of gears (not a problem at this point). I think it's important to have a basic plan. After that you can deviate from it, based on what happens around you.

Talking with guys that beat me or get beaten by me (I don't beat them as much), they analyze their sprints just as carefully as I do. They realize when they should have done this or that, when they should have gone left or right, even the choices of wheel they made before the race started. One guy asked me about my new wheels one year - he asked what happened to my "regular" ones. I said the new wheels get me 20 feet in the sprint. He looked at me with total understanding. "Most guys wouldn't think of that", he said, "but you and I know that these things make a difference." He killed me in a couple sprints including the one on that day but I beat him in a critical one by a couple inches.

I like Crimson's list btw. Good checklist.

cdr

I don't know if it's been said yet, but messing around with your positioning can make as big a difference as power does.
For instance;
Where are your hands when you sprint? hoods? hooks? on the flat?
Do you feel scrunched up? Laid back?
Do you throw the bike from side to side? Do you throw the bike at the finish? Can you throw your bike at the finish?
Do you shift while sprinting?
Do you sprint with your legs moving straight up and down like you do when you're seated, or do you bow them from the hips a little bit?
Are your elbows even with your hands?
Where are you looking?
How deeply are you breathing, and is it harder to breathe because of your positioning?
Are you still pedaling in circles?

i like this a lot, give answers for each point : )
or should this job be left to CDR?

You mean for me to give an explanation for why I'm asking? Everybody's positioning is different. Some people do better when they throw their bike side to side, and some do better when they stiffen up their movements and view the throwing as sloppy and power-robbing, for example. I'm saying that the OP should think about each of those quesitons and take each one into account. Changing a few of those things could mean a mile or two per hour faster.

nay i meant on what each point should be like, but i see what youre saying, again all very good points

No, my view is that everyone has a different position. Changing just one of those postion notes could mean faster or slower for you.

This is where power meters come in handy.

You can pick one day and do sprint repeats with rests in between and see what your speed/power output is depending on what you do to see how you sprint most efficiently.

It's aero vs. power at times like that, but it can make the difference to know, empirically, what works best for you. Throw feel out the window. As long as you can control your bike for the short time you sprint, it doesn't matter how crummy you feel as long as you're going the fastest you could be going.

I don't know if it's been said yet, but messing around with your positioning can make as big a difference as power does.
For instance;
Where are your hands when you sprint? hoods? hooks? on the flat?


My hands were in the drops. Even though we were sprinting up a slight hill, I figured that this would give me the most power for this sprint.



Do you feel scrunched up? Laid back?


I felt like I was midway over the bars. On my other bike, which is an older steel panasonic that's too small for me, on sprints I felt like I would lean way over the front of the bars, almost to the point of falling forward. On this bike, I don't feel like I'm so far forward, but it probably has to do with the shorter stem (100 vs 120mm)



Do you throw the bike from side to side? Do you throw the bike at the finish? Can you throw your bike at the finish?


Yes, I throw the bike from side to side, but I need to work on that more. Last year I was comfortable with it, but this year I feel a little more out of control, which isn't good.




Do you shift while sprinting?


Yes, but I don't think that I shift while at 100% load. I think that subconsciously I let up just a little bit, just because that's what I'm used to doing.



Do you sprint with your legs moving straight up and down like you do when you're seated, or do you bow them from the hips a little bit?


I'm not exactly sure what this means, but I don't think my legs are going straight up and down. I think this might have something to do with me throwing my bike from side to side though.



Are your elbows even with your hands?


I'm not sure, I'll have to get someone to take a picture/video of me while I'm doing it.



Where are you looking?


I was looking up the road at the guy who was beating me :(



How deeply are you breathing, and is it harder to breathe because of your positioning?


Breathing about as hard as I can



Are you still pedaling in circles?

No, at this point the pedal strokes are more up and down

My hands were in the drops. Even though we were sprinting up a slight hill, I figured that this would give me the most power for this sprint.

Okay, were you in the bend or on the flats? Change it up a bit, see which works best. Also try pulling up on the bars.


I felt like I was midway over the bars. On my other bike, which is an older steel panasonic that's too small for me, on sprints I felt like I would lean way over the front of the bars, almost to the point of falling forward. On this bike, I don't feel like I'm so far forward, but it probably has to do with the shorter stem (100 vs 120mm)
Again, try changing the positioning up. It's all about what angle you're placing your legs at. I've seen some people hovering above the saddle in a sprint and others kind of "kick" the pedals while hovering in front of the saddle.




Yes, I throw the bike from side to side, but I need to work on that more. Last year I was comfortable with it, but this year I feel a little more out of control, which isn't good.
Get comfortable. Just about every race you'll be in will end in a group sprint.





Yes, but I don't think that I shift while at 100% load. I think that subconsciously I let up just a little bit, just because that's what I'm used to doing.
Modern bikes are made to handle the pressure.



I'm not exactly sure what this means, but I don't think my legs are going straight up and down. I think this might have something to do with me throwing my bike from side to side though.
Sorry I explained it so ugly. I meant, do you bow your knees out from you? I know that in my normal pedal stroke (sitting) my knees come close to hitting the top tube, but when I sprint, Ibend my knees the other way, I feel that it relaxes the muscles a bit more, but still allowing for full power sprints.



I'm not sure, I'll have to get someone to take a picture/video of me while I'm doing it.
It's not hard to figure out. Instead of wasting a riding day on distance riding, spend an hour or so on sprinting practice.



I was looking up the road at the guy who was beating me :(
Okay, good.



Breathing about as hard as I can
Even though you're gasping for air, you should be thinking of how you're breathing.




No, at this point the pedal strokes are more up and down
Practice the circular pedal stroke in sprinting.

---------------
I'm not claiming to be an amazing sprinter, but this is what I know. Like I said, devoteat least two days a month just to sprint training, again, just a half-hour can make a huge difference. It sounds to me like you're looking at the whole machine of sprinting instead of the little components that go into it like breathing techniques, pedaling motion and possible minor positioning flaws.

FWIW, I have heard from nearly everyone not to shift while in a full out sprint. The one time I did it, I threw my chain on the frame and nearly went down. The bike was in fine mechanical condition with the exception of a weak derailleur hanger. The shop had tuned the bike the day before the race, and when I took it to them after the race to replace the hanger, they said they believed it was bent from the force of the shift. I have not shifted in a sprint since then. My coach just says you need to get comfortable with a higher cadence when sprinting.

My coach just says you need to get comfortable with a higher cadence when sprinting.

A drill for working on increasing pedal cadence is good for a drill, but to sprint as fast as possible you need to maintain a more consistent rpm. It seems like the number of pedal strokes (and force on each one) decides the limit to which you can sprint.

Keep in mind that you shift pretty much only as you accelerate. Once you hit top speed you're not going to shift (unless the terrain changes significantly or something weird happens).

A very good example of cadence vs gear is a sprint a long time ago when Mark Whitehead (track star) and Davis Phinney (crit star) ended up head to head in a sprint in a relatively big crit. Whitehead was in a 53x15, a gear he felt was "right". Phinney was in a 53x12. Whitehead lost the sprint. Afterwards he admitted that the low gear sprints, although good for track, don't work as well on the road. He put it something like "I need to learn how to sprint in a bigger gear".

In a more personal story, there was a guy who was an ace sprinter (now the guy who sponsors CRCA/Sakonnet). He had an insane jump and a good top end. When I first sprinted with him (and 100-150 of our closest friends at the SUNY Purchase sprints), I had a marginal chance at beating him. I could jump in a lower gear, like a 14, and out accelerate (jump) him infrequently. Then I could shift into higher gears and maintain my speed, so I'd be holding 46 mph in a 54x12 (late 80s to mid 90s). I was using bar end shifters, he had downtube (STI had not been invented and Ergo was a fantasy), so I could shift and he couldn't. I probably got him 1/5 of the time, all based on my shifting. Then STI came out and he bought it. I went from being able to out jump him sometimes to never. I think I only beat him if he wasn't trying hard, i.e. he went super early or he experimented with shifting etc. This is because he could shift while sprinting, the only advantage I had over him before but which was now gone.

Shifting into a smaller cog uses very little force because the derailleur spring is what moves the shifter, not your much stronger hand. Yes the chain might drop hard but chains were strengthened for index shifting and ramps for the upshifts to bigger cogs, not the downshifts to smaller cogs. I was making 100% shifts into smaller cogs with chains which would fail when shifting under pressure on "new fangled" cassettes with ramps (i.e. every single cassette made nowadays). If you had a bent hanger on your bike, it was caused by something else, not shifting under pressure, else I'd be going through hangers all the time. I buy extra hangers just in case but I still have a few for my Giants, my M2 frame, even my older Cannondales. I bend hangers when I crash, not when I shift.

It's true that over gearing is not good and it's a common error. But shifting while sprinting is a good thing to be able to do when you're dealing with "normal" category racing, i.e. Cat 3-5. Racers are generally too weak to maintain killer speeds for more than a mile or two and that plays perfectly into the hands of a racer with a good jump. At a Cat 2 level, sprints tend to start pretty fast anyway and you might get only one shift in. Above that I couldn't tell you since I haven't been in any, but it seems like they're jumping in the 12 or 11. If you go 35-38 mph for a while (5-10-15 minutes) before sprinting, the jump is almost unimportant. I know I have nothing left in situations like that and so I can't even jump.

cdr

Regarding sprint "practice", one thing I think would help is slo-mo sprints. Do extremely slow cadence sprints where you pretend you're sprinting in slo-mo. You can experiment with how much to pull up, push down, etc., all while turning a 53x12 at 10-20 rpm.

Where are your hands when you sprint? hoods? hooks? on the flat?
Do you feel scrunched up? Laid back?
Do you throw the bike from side to side? Do you throw the bike at the finish? Can you throw your bike at the finish?
Do you shift while sprinting?
Do you sprint with your legs moving straight up and down like you do when you're seated, or do you bow them from the hips a little bit?
Are your elbows even with your hands?
Where are you looking?
How deeply are you breathing, and is it harder to breathe because of your positioning?
Are you still pedaling in circles?

FWIW:
I hold the drops so high up that the crotch of my thumb is up against the lever. I never sprint anywhere else.
I can only go fast out of the saddle and therefore rock the bike. I throw the bike even when I think I might be clear because sometimes when I think I'm clear I'm not.
I shift virtually every time I stand up out of the saddle to launch my sprint.
I focus on the line once that's what's in front of me. Until then I'm looking around for gaps and usually soft pedaling a big gear.
I lean over so far that my rear wheel sometimes moves around, esp with longer stays.
I have no idea what I do with my breathing once I go, but I breath as deep/hard as I can before I go.
I tend to sprint at lower cadences (120 or so max, more like 110-115 on flats, maybe 80-90? on hills).
I pedal up/down but there seems to be a natural "kick over" motion at the top of the pedal stroke. Stronger I feel the more there is an "up" motion. Never circles.
Narrow bars help me rock faster.
Until I get past 95% effort, I hold a pretty straight line. At 100% my torso moves a bit from side to side. Bike ALWAYS moves side to side a bit - tires maybe 4-6", bars rocking, but my body is going in a relatively straight line.

I know I'm going good when I have a fast rocking rhythm in a big gear, my arms, chest, abs, back, and legs all working hard. My signs of getting better:
1. First I'm always over geared.
2. The first sprint where I don't over gear I'm usually a bit under geared, 14 or 13T, but I feel "fast".
3. Then I work on needing one tooth smaller cog, i.e. 13 or 12.
4. A good sign is extremely sore abs after doing 10+ sprints - that's maybe two steps (2-3 months) before I max out my sprint speed. If I need my core that badly, the rest of me is going well.

lol I feel like this is a botto thing:

1. When you sprint the gear will feel too big.
2. Work on your sprint until the gear feels right.
3. Shift up a gear, go back to step 1.

That's what I do. I figure it takes 6-8 weeks of consistent sprint training (1-2 days a week) to increase a gear. I'd graduate to the 53x11 after 4-5 months of lots of work - 2-3 hours of sprints (1 ever 7-8 minutes) one night a week, plus maybe 5-10 random sprints during the rest of the week, including 1-2 scheduled/known sprints during group rides. I also lift somewhat aggressively. I haven't been there in 10 years though, right now I can't break 38 mph. Sucks.

btw that means that back in the day I was at the top of my sprint game in August. yep. Right when racing is winding down.

cdr

Maybe I should try your style again, i.e. go to what felt natural to me the first time.

I used to jump from a bigger gear because I could handle it, and I would typically max out the gear I left in (slow launches in Cat 5's.) I tried not to shift much in the sprint, but I would occasionally. Now I never do it as I already said, but I am willing to try again. I push a pretty low gear when riding in the pack at a higher cadence, but when I sprint I like to keep a pretty low cadence. I feel like I can generate much more torque on the bike while rocking it more (when my cadence rises, my rocking decreases). I think I need to go back to that and ignore this take off in a low gear bs. I guess this is what happens when you are so new to cycling.

edit: one thing that did help me though was trying to hit 35mph in the 53/15. It may sound easy to some, but for me this was hard at first because of my preferred lower cadence. I can do it now, but the fast cadence feels a bit off.

Maybe I should try your style again, i.e. go to what felt natural to me the first
time.
---
edit: one thing that did help me though was trying to hit 35mph in the 53/15. It may sound easy to some, but for me this was hard at first because of my preferred lower cadence. I can do it now, but the fast cadence feels a bit off.

I think natural is key. One guy pestered me to "teach him how to sprint". My rocking style simply didn't work with his build and pedaling style. Ultimately he went back to his "old" way of sprinting - going 40 mph from way out and burning up everyone's jump. He'd literally ride me off his wheel so his lack of jump was a moot point. It wasn't as interesting to watch or execute but it was extremely effective.

I never "worked on" my sprint, it was just there. I made a few adjustments early on so I wouldn't lift my rear wheel off the ground, and later I made some adjustments so I didn't lift my front wheel off the ground (although I feel like an AMA racer when I do). I also worked on some Pavlov type hand position experiments (to get me psyched for a sprint). But my basic sprint never changed. Personally it looks a bit awkward but it works so that's that. As far as pros go I'm probably most similar to Abdujaporov, a guy severely criticized for moving his bike around a lot. McEwen is the closest of the current generation, but he's a bit more stable than I am in the sprint.

I really think alternating gear sprints are good, meaning you do a bunch of sprints alternating between, say, a 53x15 and a 53x13. At first the 15 seems too easy, but as you get fatigued, the 15 becomes really, really hard. This replicates the lactic acid build up in a race and does two things:
1. Illustrates how difficult it is to spin when fatigued.
2. Illustrate difference between higher and lower cadence in a sprint.
I've said this in other threads but when making an adjustment or experimenting with something like sprint cadence, use extreme numbers first, then narrow down to your "ideal". This applies to stem lengths, seat heights, crank lengths, and sprint cadence. So for sprints, try sprinting at 50 and 150 rpm. Then 70 and 130. Then 90 and 110. By then you'll know about what cadence at which you sprint best, and you can train accordingly. As a side benefit spinning high gears is good training by itself.

Also, thanks for not being all defensive or attacking my posts. I think my sprinting techniques are not for everyone (except the shifting bit, I truly think that everyone can use that), but they work for me, and I'm sure there are those out there that will correctly disagree with me.

cdr

Also, thanks for not being all defensive or attacking my posts. I think my sprinting techniques are not for everyone (except the shifting bit, I truly think that everyone can use that), but they work for me, and I'm sure there are those out there that will correctly disagree with me.

cdr

I will have to do the alternating some, seeing as how I haven't done sprint work in forever...

But more importantly, when you shift during the sprint, do you do it under full load or do you ease up a bit? Do you usually shift on the downstroke or the deadspots?

But more importantly, when you shift during the sprint, do you do it under full load or do you ease up a bit? Do you usually shift on the downstroke or the deadspots?

I shift on my "jump" downstroke, at about noon-1 o'clock, i.e. so the chain engages at the moment of peak power - maybe 2 o'clock or so. I definitely hear the chain slam into gear. I didn't realize this until someone pointed out I shifted as I jumped, then I distracted myself in a couple sprints to see what they were talking about.

Mid sprint shifts, i.e. not jump but simply shifting up into bigger gears, I think I shift at that top position and my pedal stroke is not as smooth/fast, and I don't get that chain slam like when I jump.

I guess I'm more a diesel or big block than F1, I like low rpm and high torque when I jump. So I soft/medium pedal a slightly big gear until I need to go, then shift into a bigger gear as I jump.

cdr