The wife and I just bought a tandem--our first. Actually, we are pretty new to bicycling in general... So we have gone out on two rides for a total of 5 miles or so. Not much time yet, but we are hoping to get some miles in this weekend.
So we have read tons of posts here and other sites and EVERYONE says she stay clipped in during stops. Is this cast in stone? If we decide that she unclips and puts her feet down at stops is someone going to hunt us down and chastise us? I read "The Proper Method" (http://www.gtgtandems.com/tech/propmethod.html) that stated the first rule of tandem is "The stoker makes no mistakes." So, if she decides to put her feet down are we covered by the rule?
I can see in the future, after I get more confident of my ability to hold us up and get us going again, she could start staying clipped.
We are a fairly good sized team (450 total or so) and it scares me a bit trying to maintain our mass as we stop and then get moving from a dead stop! I know we need to put in some mile and confidence will come as we do, but what about now!?
Thanks
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
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Well..... It should be much easier if she stays clipped. We have been riding for 40 years and have done it both ways. Staying clipped is just a lot better. Easier to start out by far. Of course, if holding the bike up is an issue then all bets are off, but I'm betting that this is just a psychological issue.
Frank
dfcas
If it is balanced,the stoker weighs zero. At a slight tilt, the stoker weighs slightly more than zero,so I vote that the stoker stays clipped in.
You can practice alone without the stoker to gain confidence.
JTGraphics
My wife stays clipped in all the time unless we are dismounting or I ask her to unclip for some reason.
Getting stared is actually easer with the stroker clipped in.
I clip one foot in as were to get started again, I also have her get crank in a place were I like for starting which for me normally is right crank at 2 o-clock as we start she provides power with out stopping as I clip other foot in if I don't get clipped in right away I will pull up with clipped in foot for during upstroke and finish clipping in on the next down stroke.
This is us I'm sure other are different as well but this works for us very well.
By the way your stoker must learn to completely trust you no mater what! this will help the stoker not have the urge to lean for any reason.
brewer45
We rode for 1500+ miles with the stoker clipping out at all stops. We've just started having the stoker stay clipped in, and here are my (captain's) observations:
Starts are much simpler with the stoker clipped in--less need for communication at the start.
Captain's right buttock got a bit bruised from working to stabilize the bike during stops. This is significantly mitigated as the stoker and captain have gained experience with the new technique.
Stoker seems happier with not needing to clip out/in during stop/starts.
I value the increased control over stops/starts. I'm in the best position to evaluate the situation and like being able to make quick decisions without the need for complex communication to the stoker. My stoker has also started communicating a preference for staying clipped in.
(suitable deference to zona)
Cheers!
Eddie50
I would say it depends, its really the captains preference.
I am the stoker (blind) so when my girlfriend is piloting, I unclip because she is uneasy balancing the weight, been riding that way for 3 years, we are used to it.
Started racing and my pilot, used to riding and oubviously stronger, feels just fine if I stay clipped in. Like said already, its easier to start when already clipped.
swc7916
My wife stays clipped in all the time unless we are dismounting or I ask her to unclip for some reason.
Getting stared is actually easer with the stroker clipped in.
I clip one foot in as were to get started again, I also have her get crank in a place were I like for starting which for me normally is right crank at 2 o-clock as we start she provides power with out stopping as I clip other foot in if I don't get clipped in right away I will pull up with clipped in foot for during upstroke and finish clipping in on the next down stroke.
This is us I'm sure other are different as well but this works for us very well.
This is exactly how we do it. I like to support the bike with my left leg, so I coast with the right pedals down and as I brake to a stop I turn ever-so-slightly to the left (to prevent falling over to the right, as I have done once) and put my left foot down . I leave my right foot clipped in and wedge the nose of the saddle against my right hip to help hold the bike steady. When we're about to strart, we rotate the pedals (backwards) to the 2 o'clock position and go. My wife only unclips if she's getting off the bike.
jgg3
Do what you feel comfortable with. You will evolve to "the right thing" for you. The stoker should know that shifting weight while clipped in at a stop is a Very Bad Thing.
twilkins9076
There are no hard and fast rules, and you will figure out fairly quickly what works for you. Most experienced teams will usually keep the stoker clipped in because it really is easier to coordinate the starts.
As stated above, weight shifting on the stokers part while clipped in and stopped is inviting disaster, especially if the captian is not expecting it.
Once your stoker experiences you safely coming to a stop time after time, she will probably naturally remain clipped in.
The only time Pam unclips at a stop is if we're stuck at a light or something for a long time and my left leg gets tired of holding the bike. In those cases, because I stay clipped in on the right side, and stand w/ my left foot down, there is a tendency for a slight bike lean that I have to compensate for and if that light is going to be red for a while it is better for me if she also unclips the left side and puts that foot down with me. When she does that, it obviously takes longer to get started because I want her to clip back in before we take off.
You've obviously not gotten enough practice yet to know what works and doesn't. My suggestion is to find yourselves an empty parking lot someplace and use it to practice nothing but starting and stopping. The first 5 miles on our bike were just that...repeated starts and stops, but when we went out the 2nd time (actually on the road), we weren't scared of needing to stop.
As you obviously have read, communication is the key to success. Talk about what works and what doesn't, and if you're about to try something new for the first time, discuss it before you make the attempt. That way, both of you will know what is expected of you in that situation, regardless of whether it's a stop light in traffic, or making a tight turn into a drive. Pretty soon, those things will just come naturally.
Enjoy the bike, and the best of luck to you.
dvs cycles
Our maiden voyage was at a beach parking lot. Having read "the method" we practiced for 30 minutes or so with out tennis shoes on.
After trying several starts and stops we switched to our cycling shoes. A few more drill and out onto PCH.
Over 300 miles now and for us the only way is for me only to unclip while she stays balanced and QUIET with her body movements. Much easier to start and stay in a straight line if only I have to find a pedal.
DTSCDS
...Of course, if holding the bike up is an issue then all bets are off, but I'm betting that this is just a psychological issue.
Frank
What have you heard about me?!?!?
Thanks to everyone for the wealth of information. I don't know why I hadn't thought of the empty parking lot trick. It sounds like putting some miles on the "half-bikes" Saturday morning followed by an afternoon of starting/stopping practice. What a productive day!!!
drbike
I have a bad knee and my stability is not the best at a stop for a red light. I found it best to have the stroker always clipped in while I may have one foot down for short stops and both feet down for long stops. When starting the stroker is ready to provide the power needed to get up to speed and be stable again. I also found it best that the stroker remains calm in body and head movements while stopped.
sch
From a stoker POV, whether I remain seated depends on how far into the ride we are
and the length of the stop and the amount of burning my crotch is experiencing. The
only draw back for me in riding a tandem is the decreased ability to unload the crotch
that singletons have the advantage of over tandems. I inform the pilot "standing'
when I get off. Pilot has enough trouble clipping in that our original launch technique
with double sided SPD pedals and continuous pedaling is rarely accomplished these
days, so I have to pause until clip in is achieved. Both of us clipping in at the same
time doesn't add much to the delay.
zonatandem
Stoker stays seated/clipped in when stopped. We also pedal 90 degrees OOP and that makes for a quick/easy takeoff.
However, to each his own preference and . . . pratcie, pratice!
Enjoy the ride TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Onegun
Coy, I've been meaning to write an article debunking Bill McCready's "The Proper Method" article for some time now, and your post finally prompted me to do so. I take a look at both the advantages and disadvantages of both methods.
You can read it here:
http://billnmaggi.tandemrides.com/debunk/
Bottom line is: Learn both ways and then decide what's right for you.
Bill n Maggi
dvs cycles
Bottom line is: Learn both ways and then decide what's right for you.
Bill n Maggi
I disagree. As an experiencedsingle rider/racer I found THE METHOD to be perfect for us.
No need to learn both ways.
Try THE METHOD and if it doesn't work for you then experiment.
Like anything in life it takes practice.
Onegun
You disagree that you should learn both sides of an argument before you form an opinion? Interesting.
brewer45
Maybe it's time for a quote from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (which is really quite a bit like riding a tandem), "Make yourself perfect and then just paint (ride) naturally."
TandemGeek
Coy, I've been meaning to write an article debunking Bill McCready's "The Proper Method" article for some time now...
I'm not sure if it has more to do with the polarizing effect Mr. McCready has on certain tandem enthusiasts, or just the extent of his influence that seems to draw attention to his writings, but I do find it amusing the most often cited resource for "how to start and stop" is something Bill McCready wrote in a personal posting to the Tandem@Hobbes list back in December of 1994 (http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=tandem.9412.0182.eml), often times with his follow-up reply on exceptions to the proper method (http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=tandem.9412.0342.eml) appended thereto. Mind you, it's not as though no one took exception to the suggestion there was only one way to start and stop back in 1994, because they did (http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=tandem.9412.0234.eml). Now, here's why it's amusing...
Although Bill is a writer and journalist by training & education, he's never written a book on tandeming. Yes, he's written enough to fill a book and his Tandems & Tandeming publication has probably been more widely read than anything else on the subject of tandems. It was, in fact, one of the first editions of Tandems & Tandeming wherein Bill briefly described his preferred technique for starting that caused a reader in the UK to post the question (http://search.bikelist.org/query.asp?SearchString=%22Starting+techniques+on+a+tandem%2E%22&SearchPrefix=%40msgsubject&SortBy=MsgDate%5Ba%5D)that begat the "Proper Method" posting. However, two other cycling luminaries HAVE written books on tandeming and yet it's rare either are ever cited as a resource or quoted with regard to how to start and stop... or anything else for that matter. Well, that's not completely true: one of them is actually referenced quite often... as a left-handed compliment in the final paragraph of Bill McCready's Dec 14, '94 posting to Hobbes.
Anyway, less I digress, as I was saying there have been at least two somewhat contemporary books written about tandeming here in the US since the tandem revivial of the 80's and 90's. The first was The Tandem Scoop by John Schubert on behalf of Burley in 1993 and the second was The Tandem Book by Angel Rodriguez & Carla Black in 1997.
Both books described starting and stopping methods for tandems and both books described the "Stoker Up" version most often attributed to Mr. McCready. In fact, it was the only method described in The Tandem Scoop, but it didn't have a catchy name or preamble regarding Stoker's being right, wrong, or mistake-proof. The Tandem Book, to which Bill McCready was a reviewer and contributor, also cites the "Stoker-Up" method as well as what has become the Santana First Ride Program methodolgy... but goes on to describe having both riders mount and start in unison as they would on single bikes. The latter was stated to be the preferred method of the authors; Angel & Carla: a personal preference and because to a small part "Carla likes it because she feels more like a partner instead of a passenger". It's also interesting to note someone at Cannondale came up with a Readers Digest version of The Tandem Scoop that was and still is used as Cannondale's Owner's Manual - Tandem Supplement (http://www.thetandemlink.com/99tandsupp.pdf) and it also describes only the 'Stoker Up' method of starting and stopping.
So, while two books on tandeming exist that describe the 'Stoker Up' method of starting and stopping a tandem as well as a widely available owners manual for a very popular brand of tandem, the most compelling and authoritative source for instruction curiously continues to be Santana Cycles marketing materials and a one-time posting by Bill McCready from 1994. Never mind my sneaking suspicion that "Stoker Up" was developed before the turn of the last century (i.e., late 1800's) as were most of the cycling and tandem methods and inventions such tandems with open frames as well as lateral tubes, track-mounting bikes, "stoker up" and the like. However, for some inexplicable reason you'd think none of these things existed until invented after 1977.
In closing let me note that interestingly enough, there was one posting that came two-days before the infamous "Proper Method" that addressed the OPs question about the 'Stoker Up' approach quite succinctly from someone who, at least at that time, was just emerging as a icon of cycling knowledge and wisdom: here's a link to Sheldon Brown's reply to the OP from Dec 12, 1994 (http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=tandem.9412.0154.eml).
For the record, Stoker Up. Moreover, if there was a convenient way that I could stop and start without putting MY foot down -- short of riding a three or four-wheeled machine -- I'd use it. Well, I guess there is at least for short stops: it's called a track stand. I do those whenever possible and prudent on both my personal bikes and the tandems. It's all what about what you and your stoker are accustomed to and feel most comfortable doing.
Possum Roadkill
Some times we like both feet down and others the stoker stays clipped in. I find trying to hold the bike up while backpedaling to the right position annoying. I can do it, but I find it easier to start with the pedals already in a good position for starting. This also provides a good cue to my stoker whether I want them to stay clipped in or not. If the cranks are parallel to the ground, I want my stoker to stay clipped in. If my right foot is down, then they know to clip out. My current stoker is the only one that I have ridden with that was even comfortable staying clipped in, so I sometimes forget that I'm going to have to balance the bike with them clipped in, however this cue we came up takes that into account too as I always have my right foot down if I forget about having the stoker not having a foot down.
zonatandem
'Proper method' is the one that suits you and your riding partner . . . as usual there are choices. You pick!
Onegun
I'm not sure if it has more to do with the polarizing effect Mr. McCready has on certain tandem enthusiasts ...
Oh, I am quite sure it has a LOT to do with McCready's polarizing effect! It's rarely WHAT he says, just the way he says it! ;-)
Never mind my sneaking suspicion that "Stoker Up" was developed before the turn of the last century (i.e., late 1800's) as were most of the cycling and tandem methods and inventions such tandems with open frames as well as lateral tubes, track-mounting bikes, "stoker up" and the like. However, for some inexplicable reason you'd think none of these things existed until invented after 1977. .
I'm quite sure BOTH methods came into existance shortly after the invention of the toe clip, which was first seen in its primitive form in 1868. Speedplay has a comprehensive "Pedal Timeline" on their site which is quite interesting, (link below). 1895 was a really interesting year for bicycles! Apparently by then, there were two US Patent Offices, one for bicycles, and one for everything else! Also, note the rash of clipless pedals invented that year! Fascinating stuff.
You disagree that you should learn both sides of an argument before you form an opinion? Interesting.
???????????????There is no argument in my book.
From observing tandems in my local clubs for many years
the NORM is stoker-up.
If you try normal and can't learn it then try some other way
even if you need training wheels.:D
There are many things in life that we don't need to
experience both sides of to form an opinion on, aren't there.;)
Retro Grouch
My wife and I started riding tandems 32 years ago. When we started tandems were pretty rare and we weren't aware of any instruction manuals so we both put our left foot down at every stop. Since then we haven't found a good reason to change, so we haven't.
rfutscher
My tandem has the rear bottom bracket closer to the ground than the front bottom bracket. If the stoker takes their foot out of the toe clip we run the risk of the pedal flipping over. With the toe clip down and close to the ground we run the risk of it catching and taking us down.
regomatic
We use a variety of methods, depending on the situiation.
For most short stops on training rides, stoker stays clipped in and I clip out on left side only. Stoker is very stable and it's not a problem keeping the bike balanced. When we're ready to go, we start with a strong power stroke and we're off.
If I want to ask for a drink at a long light, I'll also unclip on the right side and straddle the bike to be sure it's stable while she stays clipped in and hands me a bottle, I'll drink and hand the bottle back. The right-side pedals are already at the 1-2:00 postion so we can still get a pretty good push in a hurry, even if I'm not clipped in right away before pushing off.
If we approach a red light later on during a longer ride, she might call "butt break" and I'll unclip both sides, straddle the bike and she can unclip left or both sides, or, once in a while, get totally off the bike altogether. Starts are invariably slower using this technique.
DTSCDS
I must say I am really impressed with the quality and quantity of responses.
If I were to boil down what I have learned thus far it would be this:
As a seminary student I found learning learning Greek to be quite frustrating. I enjoy things that make sense and tend to follow predictable patterns. Greek has certain "rules" that are followed, unless you get a situation where the rule doesn't apply, then it's something completely different.
So, for tandem riding it seems that the rule is the rule, except when it's not, in which case it's completely different.
BTW--we just got the tandem back from the LBS last night. It went in for a once over and adjustment. The front ring cable needed to be replaced and the brakes feel much better now. While we were there we had them put the pedals in phase and have decided to give the "all feet on deck" method a try. We were making some slow progress on learning to be comfortable "doubled up". Stopping isn't so bad and moving down the road is okay. It's just the starting that causes me to reach "Pucker Level 12". Having her clipped in and needing to bring my off foot up to the pedal is like standing at the edge of the high-diving board for the first time and trying to force yourself to take that "big step."
Again, thanks everyone for your willingness to help out.
brewer45
Interesting that you went in-phase to try the stoker up. We started stoker up about a month a go, in-phase, and immediately noticed the benefits for our style of riding. That moment of clicking in is a bit scary, but placing my butt firmly on the top tube (actually my upper thigh) and pushing the point of my seat firmly in my hip makes it less scary. Then earlier this week, I switched the bike to 90 degrees OOP (captain ahead). We did a short ride (4 miles) of nothing but starting and stopping to get the hang of it. Although we never got it right, the experience resulted in a late night epiphany that I (captain) should just start the way I always do. Works great and the stoker has adopted and quite likes the new format.
We just got home from 50 miles of the Ghost Town Century (Utah Bike2Bike click here for a toporoute.com map if you're curious (http://www.toporoute.com/cgi-bin/getSavedRoute.cgi?routeKey=PMAOYXYDJMBHAQS)) and found the OOP to be much smoother than in-phase. It's probably placebo, but I think we also did much better on the mostly uphill route. We're pretty much hooked on stoker up/90 OOP.
Cheers!
Pat from CA
It depends....
Starting on a downhill...we often just both unclip one foot.... the start is easy...
starting uphill...God Help us...usually stoker is clipped in to save our ass... and Captain has front foot clipped in and is figuring on a lot of up pedaling until he can manage to slap down on the pedal in the right alignment...lol
flats...usually stoker is clipped in all the way...
The unifiying factor is simply.....COMMUNICATION about what the Captain expects when starting.... (btw Captains...think about what gear you are in before you stop!!!!! (that's my stoker's advice lol))