Road Bike Racing - Tell me to htfu

I've had some horrible race results so far this season, which sucks because I've actually been trying with this whole training deal... have a kick ass coach making amazing schedules... etc...

I dont know if there is something wrong with me physically or phsycologically... I get KILLED on the slightest uphills... I'm one of the first to get dropped in a 4/5 race.. I did horrible in a tt last night.. and I have a rr with a major hill climb next weekend..

I would expect this if I weighed 200+, but I weigh ~175... my ftp is around 250-260.
Do I just need to work on my ftp and drop a few pounds? or should that w/kg be able to keep with a group on slight hills.. hillclimbs i know I'm out of.. and am I just giving up to easily?

Can you explain what it feels like when you realise you cannot keep up with the pace? do you keep trying until you cant peddle any more?

Im about depressed enough with my results to skip some races until I have a better ftp... unfortunately the spring crit series i was looking forward to was cancelled and all i have are these damn road races.. and somehow need to be in shape for mt hood and cascade classic..

HTFU. Getting shelled racing only makes you f'ing stronger. Now HTFU and ride until your quads explode. Repeat ad infinitum. Report your improved results here.

ive been getting shelled for 3 years, finished w/ pack only on a couple flat crits and one RR where the pace wasnt too bad.... is that normal?

HTFU!

Now work on your FTP, but do it while climbing. Do your SST workouts on climbs, something around 5-6% works good for me. Shorter stuff I just power over, longer climbs gotta pace.

Can you explain what it feels like when you realise you cannot keep up with the pace? do you keep trying until you cant peddle any more?

Yes, the legs will just not turn over anymore. However, that can be as much mental as physical. It helps to switch from standing to sitting sometimes. If I'm sitting on a climb and realize I'm falling off the back, I often give it one last standing all out sprint to see if I can catch on before they reach the top. Sometimes it works, and sometimes you just blow up more.



Im about depressed enough with my results to skip some races until I have a better ftp... unfortunately the spring crit series i was looking forward to was cancelled and all i have are these damn road races.. and somehow need to be in shape for mt hood and cascade classic..

Do not skip any races. With an FTP of 250-260 (right around mine) you should be able to easily hang on especially during flat races if you race smart. Read CDR's recent post, FTP and wattage are not everything in a bike race.


These climbs you are getting dropped on, how long are they? If they are less than 2-3 minutes long, we are not talking about FTP being your limiter. You should really try to talk to your coach about your weaknesses and make sure he structures your training accordingly. Also, make sure when your coach gives you an interval workout that you absolutely kill yourself.

I think Friel said that one of the biggest mistakes a noobie racer makes is taking it to easy on the hard days and too hard on the easy days, make sure you avoid that.

unfortunately the spring crit series i was looking forward to was cancelled and all i have are these damn road races.. and somehow need to be in shape for mt hood and cascade classic..

I wish I had that problem.

When I get dropped it's normaly just a small gap that I don't close, either by not trying hard enough or early enough. Normally the legs feel like jello, and they feel like they can't keep it up anymore.

I would focus more on shorter intervals, stull that is the same time roughly as the climbs you're getting dropped on. I would also climb many hills. Try to hide in the pack to conserve yourself whenever possible.

Honestly, are you sure you're not quitting?

I'm 15+lbs heavier than you and don't get dropped up hills - only climbs (FTP 330-335 now, 315 last season). I might drift back a little bit, but as soon as it flattens out I'm in contention...

Don't worry about losing weight unless you're sub 5'10 - even then...worry about making more power and racing smarter. Does your coach help you with tactics? I know of a coach whose grasp on power training is probably weaker than mine, but he can get riders results because he's been there, and done that in the days before the SRM. Tactics matter unless you're TT'ing. They matter a whole lot.

ive been getting shelled for 3 years, finished w/ pack only on a couple flat crits and one RR where the pace wasnt too bad.... is that normal?

Without knowing what your tactics are during the race, it's difficult to tell. If you are on the front and attacking or on the back and yo-yoing, I would say that yes, those results are normal. However, if you are staying in the pack and riding smoothly and out of the wind and still getting dropped, then you must either have a much lower FTP or just have really lousy ability to recover from surges. Hence the "do your intervals till you puke" advice. Sounds like you need to focus on 1-2 minute VO2 intervals perhaps.

your warming up properly?

you have a coach. are you not following his plans and schedules to a T? it seems impossible that you arent even getting lucky at some of these races. over-training perhaps?

your warming up properly?

Ive been trying to, last weekend I didnt... the race had a climb (10+ min) right at the start and I got dropped.. sucked.

I normally can make it through a couple minutes of climbing pretty well..

I'll get a screenshot of my power numbers... mid-high cat 4 area for everything except ftp is in the mid cat 5 i think...

I've been scared to talk to my coach lately about my weeknesses because the last few weeks I've been slacking on the training due to my schedule.. and my poor results made me less motivated to get out there (vicious circle? lol)

you have a coach. are you not following his plans and schedules to a T? it seems impossible that you arent even getting lucky at some of these races. over-training perhaps?

I'm not... the last few weeks I have had 12+ hour scheduled and did like 6-7... this could be a lot of it, but i always hear about people racing on much less hours per week.. and I had about the same results last year on a couple hours a week.. lol.

in a few weeks I'm done with school for the summer and will be able to get the training done much better.

What you need to do is start training in the hills. Go on regular hilly rides with the mountain goats on your team (or your mountain goat acquantences) and try to keep up.

In technical terms, your ftp is too low. At your weight, you need something above 300W ftp to keep up with the mountain goats on hills. To raise your ftp, do 2x20 minute interval sets and climb lots of hills. And not just the power climbs. Do stuff like 2 miles at 8% grade... significant hills that'll string you out. It'll help both your power and your hill climbing technique.

Something to motivate you... If you can get your ftp high enough to keep up with the mountain goats on 6% grades, you'll hang with them up the mountains and absolutely smoke them on the flats. And if you can sprint a bit as well, you'll start winning a fair number of races. Something I've learned in my first season racing is that the little climber types don't win many amateur races. They'll win a few with significant uphill finishes and they might get in some breakaways, but most courses favor strong riders who can sprint.

BTW, dmotoguy, you realize that they cut the Cat4 field (I assume you are Cat4) from the Mt Hood stage race, right?

Will you be at Elkhorn? If so, I'll be in your field.

I've been scared to talk to my coach lately about my weeknesses because the last few weeks I've been slacking on the training due to my schedule.. and my poor results made me less motivated to get out there (vicious circle? lol)



Those are EXACTLY the times when you DO need to talk to your coach. If you aren't getting the work in, he needs to know so he can adjust accordingly.
And sounds like its half mental to me, based on the numbers. Love the suffering...

BTW, dmotoguy, you realize that they cut the Cat4 field (I assume you are Cat4) from the Mt Hood stage race, right?

Will you be at Elkhorn? If so, I'll be in your field.

yea!, i meant elkhorn..

Its time for me to start climbing i guess.. I have a great loop I can do on the way home from work that has 3 great climbs one is long and steep, then a short steep, then a long easier one.. or I can go up one that is 7%? ave for 16 mi... i might start going half-way up it on the days im supposed to do hill repeats.

Its time for me to start climbing i guess.. I have a great loop I can do on the way home from work that has 3 great climbs one is long and steep, then a short steep, then a long easier one.. or I can go up one that is 7%? ave for 16 mi... i might start going half-way up it on the days im supposed to do hill repeats.

On that long climb, try climbing at ftp, then surge for a minute, then back to ftp. That should get your ability to recover while climbing to improve.

I'll chime in here.... In Texas, all of the hills are short (almost). Thus, in most of the races, the way the group goes up hills is just to sprint up the hills. Idaho isn't as flat as Texas, but my guess is that you're getting dropped on the shorter hills. Your FTP is fine, so I'd work on some shorter duration stuff -- jumps and stuff at 1 minute or less.

7% for 16 miles? why only half of it? scale the whole thing.

Two concerns with climbing (not that I am a climber). One is cadence. What does your cadence look like when you get popped? Are you standing or seated? It is not rare to produce a much lower power output for a higher physiological stress when standing. STFD (Sit The F Down). The other thing is positioning. If you are near the front it is easy to climb slower and still be attached. Oh, and I guess a third. get used to climbing at/near threshold, surge for 10 seconds and then settle in to threshold again. You need to be able to recover at threshold when climbing.

That, and HTFU.

Im normally sitting when I get dropped.. i dont get out of the saddle much unless its a real short climb.

UT-dude: I can hang on the short stuff.. sometimes put the hurt on people.. minute or less is nothing for me at this point... its the 5-10+ minute stuff.

DrWJODonnell: My cadence is ok, i have a 27 in the rear so I can keep it 80+ most of the time.. unless its a wall. I'll try those threshold then surge then threshold workouts, those sound like what i really need.

I've had some horrible race results so far this season, which sucks because I've actually been trying with this whole training deal... have a kick ass coach making amazing schedules... etc...

I dont know if there is something wrong with me physically or phsycologically... I get KILLED on the slightest uphills... I'm one of the first to get dropped in a 4/5 race.. I did horrible in a tt last night.. and I have a rr with a major hill climb next weekend..

I would expect this if I weighed 200+, but I weigh ~175... my ftp is around 250-260.
Do I just need to work on my ftp and drop a few pounds? or should that w/kg be able to keep with a group on slight hills.. hillclimbs i know I'm out of.. and am I just giving up to easily?

Can you explain what it feels like when you realise you cannot keep up with the pace? do you keep trying until you cant peddle any more?

Im about depressed enough with my results to skip some races until I have a better ftp... unfortunately the spring crit series i was looking forward to was cancelled and all i have are these damn road races.. and somehow need to be in shape for mt hood and cascade classic..

Dunno what "ftp" means ... Full Torque Power ??? http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/images/smiles/puzzled.gif

How many miles in your legs this season? If the pack has 2,000 and you've got 500 ... yeah, bye bye!

Are you getting a good draft? Using the right gears? Are you simply blowing up - BANG!, or slipping off the back slowly??

Its time for me to start climbing i guess.. I have a great loop I can do on the way home from work that has 3 great climbs one is long and steep, then a short steep, then a long easier one.. or I can go up one that is 7%? ave for 16 mi... i might start going half-way up it on the days im supposed to do hill repeats.

Man I wish I had that kind of climb near where I live.

I'd probably tap that once every/every other week.

Check in with me on how the Texas boy does on real climbs Wednesday of next week...

Dunno what "ftp" means ... Full Torque Power ??? http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/images/smiles/puzzled.gif

How many miles in your legs this season? If the pack has 2,000 and you've got 500 ... yeah, bye bye!

Are you getting a good draft? Using the right gears? Are you simply blowing up - BANG!, or slipping off the back slowly??

ftp - functional threshold power, pretty much tt pace or how hard you can do for 1 hour.

miles this season? i have just over a thousand since i started riding again jan 1... i didnt ride after the last race of the year last september until then..

pretty good at drafting and staying in the front part of the pack.. but not pulling at the front.. i think im geared right most of the time...
it depends, in one of my races i would slip back slowly then struggle back on or to stay with them.. do that 4-5 times and then get dropped..
on another race it was just like bang!, i blew up and couldnt do anything about it.

Have you raced in crits before?

I got spit out during my first hard crit. I felt pain like no other during that ride and was amazed that I could even hold it. Once I figured that out, I trained harder and learned that I could race harder. I think you just need to learn that you have more in you than you think.

I don't really have any suggestions that haven't already been said. It sounds like we have similar limiters. I am great on the 1-2 min. climbs, but at Mt. Hood last year when we were climbing for >10minutes I sucked (I'm ~170 lbs, so a little heavy for a bike racer). I don't think it is just about climbing - I am just better at sprints and short efforts than TTs and other long FTP efforts. I guess I'd say just train your limiters, and race your strengths.

Edit: I forgot to say HTFU!

Have you raced in crits before?




yes, I do better in flat crits, i was in even poorer condition last year and finished a few.. even one in the top five!

If you follow the w/kg charts your FTP is low when compared to other racers though I dont think that chart holds too much weight. Knowing your FTP is good for your benchmarking and determining work loads though. w/kg dosent always win the race.... Racers that have HTFU always do.

You need to do WFI (wfrogge intervals)..... One day a week go out and ride as hard as you can for as long as you can. When you think you want to quit dont until you are cross eyed, dizzy, or puking. Then take at most a 1 min break and repeat. Keep track of the time you could hold that first interval...... When your interval time declines to the point its 1/2 of time the first one was you are done with these intervals. Follow up with at least 30 minutes of tempo riding followed up with 15 minute cool down. These will make you HTFU or quit the sport..... dont quit.

Report back in 4 weeks and thank me.

pretty good at drafting and staying in the front part of the pack.. but not pulling at the front.. .

If you've got the power to ride at the front, but eventually get dropped, then it sounds like your endurance is lacking. You just need more miles .... in training and competition ... then you'll be raking in the $$,$$$. Get a number and line up. Hang in there, keep racing, your legs will come around.

Hills, hills, hills, hills, ... etc. puke...hills, hills, hills, ... etc. puke...hills, hills...

:D

Guaranteed to work.

dude you are paying a coach! Go talk to him about this. Seriously.

If he has no idea you are having difficulties completing your training schedule and problems in races he is not going to know to make adjustments to your plan.

If you are afraid to talk to him or dont have the trust that he is trying to help you, you need to cut ties.

stallionforce is right, hills hills hills.

you have to hit your weak point. if you hit the hills almost every ride, you`ll get better there AND you`ll get faster on the flats, be able to cover attacks, and attack yourself.

sounds like your coach is missing something...

You dont need to train on hills to be a good hill climiber

You dont need to train on hills to be a good hill climiber

more info requested!

more info requested!


Do 10 minute, 20, minute, 45 minute, and 1h, intervals on the flats and dont let up.... dont soft pedal... dont drop watts...

Around Memphis it is flat but we have several CAT 1 and 2 guys that win races in the Ozarks and East Tennessee every year...

hill intervals, and more base on hills. take a weekend off and do a few long hill rides saturday and sunday. they work wonders.

Do 10 minute, 20, minute, 45 minute, and 1h, intervals on the flats and dont let up.... dont soft pedal... dont drop watts...

Around Memphis it is flat but we have several CAT 1 and 2 guys that win races in the Ozarks and East Tennessee every year...

hm i do that, well with heartrate :\ until i get a PT

i think i just lack technique on hills, i stand too much, actually find myself way more effective just TTing up them.. also got like 15lbs i can lose ;d