Road Bike Racing - Compact sprinting

Hey all just wondering, I live in an area (Nor Cal) with alot of hills and I am thinkin about a compact crank. Wondering how much of a difference is it on the sprinting end for racing? I typically sprint in a 53/11, so how much difference are we looking at realistically in a 50/11?
thanks,
Paul

First off, if you aren't coming into sprints at 40mph, why are you in your 53/11?

Second, 50/11 is about the same as 53/12.

Only weaklings sprint in a 53/11. That is for pansy. Men have at least a 55/10. Remember, if you're over 40 rpm, you're not in a big enough gear.

Either that or your e-wang makes you real one look pretty small.

But really, a 50/11 is just fine, I doubt most of us should even be near that ratio in flat sprints.

First off, if you aren't coming into sprints at 40mph, why are you in your 53/11?

Second, 50/11 is about the same as 53/12.

50x11 is taller than 53x12.

if i remember correctly, 50x11 at 120rpm is like 44-45mph. so unless you can sprint with the big boys, i think youll be ok.

I have only been in one race where my 50/12 was too small, and that was with a downhill finish. Not that I was in contention for the final sprint anyway.

Hey all just wondering, I live in an area (Nor Cal) with alot of hills and I am thinkin about a compact crank. Wondering how much of a difference is it on the sprinting end for racing? I typically sprint in a 53/11, so how much difference are we looking at realistically in a 50/11?
thanks,
Paul

Like stated previously, 50/11 is pretty close to 53/12. I run a 50/11 on my race bike and have never been undergeared in a sprint, including some slightly downhill sprints. It does depend on your sprinting style, however. I think my max speed I have seen in a race sprint is about 41mph and that is something like 120 rpms in a 50/11.

Edit: I checked after reading other replies and 50/11 at 41mph is 115 rpms.

My max sprint has been 40 mph, so i would assume i will be ok then. Thanks guys appreciate the advice.

how the hell do you guys get 120rpm out of the saddle :(

how do i practice this

i hate sprinting

how the hell do you guys get 120rpm out of the saddle :(

how do i practice this

i hate sprinting

Practice on a trainer in an easier gear, then keep increasing resistance till you can't spin over a set cadence anymore. Then pyramid from there to a gear you spin out on.

hmm i don't think anything good would happen out of doing 120rpm trainer out of the saddle sprint workouts... at least on my trainer, i'll probably take off into a wall (laterally take off into a wall) ;d

plus, what the hell... it's too nice out to be on the trainer, i don't think you could pay me money to get on that thing

screw you guys, i'm joining the DrWJODonnell wanna-be club, minus the wattage, maybe i can sandbag a bad cat 5 race after years of training this way ^_^

Dude, you've got top 10s in the C's.

I finished middle to end of the road in both the D races that I did (granted they were my first races and I hadn't trained well at all) and now I'm hanging well during the 4/5 crits that average almost 25mph.

No idea how I'd do in a 4/5 or 5's road race though, and I won't be finding out this weekend since I can't make sturbridge due to stress and insane workload.

Go for it, you'll be fine.

Then again I can't sprint either. I can hit the high 30's using CDR's downhill technique and the low to mid 30's on flat ground. Just keep at it.

I have only been in one race where my 50/12 was too small, and that was with a downhill finish. Not that I was in contention for the final sprint anyway.

I was in a race last year where I was spinning along at 43 mph in the peloton, halfway through the first lap.....wasn't particularly steep...but we were FLYING. If I had a 50x12 that would've sucked; as it was my legs were spinning along pretty well in my 50x11.

I'm about convinced the SRAM 11-26 along with a 50x36 is probably the best all-around combo for around here for a setup that does everything.

Hey all just wondering, I live in an area (Nor Cal) with alot of hills and I am thinkin about a compact crank. Wondering how much of a difference is it on the sprinting end for racing? I typically sprint in a 53/11, so how much difference are we looking at realistically in a 50/11?
thanks,
Paul


http://www.doingitwrong.com/wrong/wrong8.jpg

hmm i don't think anything good would happen out of doing 120rpm trainer out of the saddle sprint workouts... at least on my trainer, i'll probably take off into a wall (laterally take off into a wall) ;d

plus, what the hell... it's too nice out to be on the trainer, i don't think you could pay me money to get on that thing

screw you guys, i'm joining the DrWJODonnell wanna-be club, minus the wattage, maybe i can sandbag a bad cat 5 race after years of training this way ^_^

No need to do these workouts on the trainer. Just practice sprints in a small gear. Focus on being smooth. That or get a fixed gear to ride through next winter. Spinning up to 120rpms will be nothing by spring.

I added a 11t to my race wheels this year (Campy 34/50 in front) after spinning out my 12 a few times last year. Sadly, none of those times were in sprints, rather, long modest downgrades with remarkable tailwinds. It's about the only time I can think of where pedaling north of 40mph proved worthwhile.

I'm pretty sure I've never cracked 40 in a sprint without such assistance.

Dude, you've got top 10s in the C's.

I finished middle to end of the road in both the D races that I did (granted they were my first races and I hadn't trained well at all) and now I'm hanging well during the 4/5 crits that average almost 25mph.

No idea how I'd do in a 4/5 or 5's road race though, and I won't be finding out this weekend since I can't make sturbridge due to stress and insane workload.

Go for it, you'll be fine.

Then again I can't sprint either. I can hit the high 30's using CDR's downhill technique and the low to mid 30's on flat ground. Just keep at it.

I guess i will, but i donno

this sunday there was a local practice crit with about 30 people showing (all cat 5). I went off solo on like lap 3 out of 12 and won the race, got half a 0.8 mile loop on the field. It was painful but its so much better than sprinting :|
when i do interval work, which is rarely these days because of nonstop group rides, i always end up doing 20x2 since i just enjoy them... eff sprinting i say, who's with me

No need to do these workouts on the trainer. Just practice sprints in a small gear. Focus on being smooth. That or get a fixed gear to ride through next winter. Spinning up to 120rpms will be nothing by spring.

oh i do have a fixie, and i can spin to 140-150 if i really want to even if for a short period of time, but out of the saddle during a sprint.. higher than 90.. no way.. i'll try some this saturday though and focus on that, maybe that's what's missing

I guess i will, but i donno

this sunday there was a local practice crit with about 30 people showing (all cat 5). I went off solo on like lap 3 out of 12 and won the race, got half a 0.8 mile loop on the field. It was painful but its so much better than sprinting :|
when i do interval work, which is rarely these days because of nonstop group rides, i always end up doing 20x2 since i just enjoy them... eff sprinting i say, who's with me

While that kind of riding might serve you well during a 5's race. It won't work in crits for the 4's and ups, breakaways in road races are a different ball game.

Did you have to pay for this training race? Or is it just like a spontaneous thing that happens? Does it count towards usac upgrades?

I'm asking because I don't know of anything like this in my area :(

While that kind of riding might serve you well during a 5's race. It won't work in crits for the 4's and ups, breakaways in road races are a different ball game.

Did you have to pay for this training race? Or is it just like a spontaneous thing that happens? Does it count towards usac upgrades?

I'm asking because I don't know of anything like this in my area :(

yeah it probably won't, but then i'll try going off in 3-4 person breakaways in higher up races :). It was an organized race, it happens around here every sunday. There are 3 categories, C, B, A. We pay 11 bucks per and it does count towards your upgrades, but points are not awarded, so no like cat 3 upgrade from it. However they served well for my cat 4 upgrades, even though 2/3 times ive done it i was in breakaways and gained absolutely no pack riding experience :|

I really enjoy them though, not a technical course but eh, im doing Bs this week gonna get my ass kicked ^_^

if you want to check out the details look at bostonroadclub.com it's called wells ave race. Hell if youre not too far you should come out

btw cliche, you're going to be around philly this summer? i'm originally from there and will be there all summer, we should go to some races if you are!

oh i do have a fixie, and i can spin to 140-150 if i really want to even if for a short period of time, but out of the saddle during a sprint.. higher than 90.. no way.. i'll try some this saturday though and focus on that, maybe that's what's missing

One trick is to lock your ankles at like 100 degrees. Once you get to where you're feeling spun out, lock the ankles, and you're good for another 20 rpm. Just taking that variable out of the neuromuscular pathways allows you to speed up.

You don't need to focus on being smooth as much as just pedaling fast. To get fast, you'll smooth out on your own. I used to think my max RPM was 160 or so, but I've recently hit 228 rpm out of the saddle.

Jeeze. I thought I was good. CDR and WR are both 200+. I can get to 194 rpm, but not higher yet. I need to work on my sprints.

+1 to WR's post.

Spinning is crucial to good sprinting. Getting 200+ is not going to happen on the road in actual sprints, but it's worth training to get up there.

At the very least your sprint should break 120, for most people.

If you've already gotten accustomed to such cadences, like riding your fixie (though that's way easier to get high cadence) just suck it up and do it in a sprint, they don't give medals for being in a huge gear.

interesting never looked at it this way, and 228 WR? That's obscene

my next sprint im def gonna pay attention to that, i really am always in the lowest gear for my sprints, too low probably, thanks for all the advice! Even though this wasn't my thread to begin with ;d

I've recently hit 228 rpm out of the saddle.

That's not a typo? 228rpm...:eek:

I'm just going to sell my bike and give up now to save all the humiliation of running into guys like you.

how the hell do you guys get 120rpm out of the saddle :(

how do i practice this

i hate sprinting

my max is 130rpm in a sprint and im a masher thats most comfortable between 80 and 90rpm in the saddle.

228 is pretty high for a non-fixed bike. But seriously, y'all think it's ridiculous? It's not.

i'm having issues imagining legs moving that fast _^

228 is pretty high for a non-fixed bike. But seriously, y'all think it's ridiculous? It's not.

then what is ridiculous? i cant even picture 228 in my head, or imagine what that would feel like.

228 is ridiculous. For me. 120 is mighty fast; 140 I get sloppy; +150 I might as well fall over and get it over with. The fire hydrants I call legs just don't work that way.

I can get over 120 seated no problem, but I also struggle standing. I struggle sprinting in general. I suck at sprinting. It takes me forever to spin up without a lead-out, and jumping on a big gear from a slower speed kills my bum ankle). I always fail when there's that lull before a field sprint if I can't get through traffic and hold the speed I've been ramping up to. My issue with my 50/12 is that if I'm in a sprint where I'm using that gear, I often feel it's too low. Not because I'm going 40mph (I'm not), but because I can't get my cadence really high. Instead, I feel like I need to really exert more force on the pedals and that I lack enough resistance for that. I guess my bike handling feels sloppy or that the bike is to squirrelly or something at that point. It sucks that my ankle doesn't like a lot of resistance yet my legs feel like they need more. I've obviously got to figure out how to fix my sprinting.

I've tried the practicing on the trainer approach. I have no problems there, as the trainer provides enough stability. Still, my cadence doesn't get quite high enough there to do me much good in a real-life sprint. Better, but nowhere near 228.


Sigh.

I was in a race last year where I was spinning along at 43 mph in the peloton, halfway through the first lap.....wasn't particularly steep...but we were FLYING. If I had a 50x12 that would've sucked; as it was my legs were spinning along pretty well in my 50x11.

I'm about convinced the SRAM 11-26 along with a 50x36 is probably the best all-around combo for around here for a setup that does everything.
Makes sense. I have an 11-28 which I plan on using for road races (hopefully for the 11, not the 28) and I should mention that I grew up racing on a velodrome, so spinning gears to a high RPM is comfortable for me. I'm also a Cat 4 who has yet to take a top 10 finish since getting back into racing, so the big gear is useless until I get strong enough to turn it. :D

Go to a track. Tell them you think 220 is a really high cadence. Put your flame suit on.

I hit close to 170 rpms in a sprint before.....I probably could've gone faster if my legs didn't die in the process; I wasn't out of my comfort zone at that point.

Go to a track. Tell them you think 220 is a really high cadence. Put your flame suit on.

sweet, ill go drive the 3 hours right now.

how about you just tell us what a "ridiculous" cadence is.

I really did used to think 160 rpm was fast for me. I discovered how wrong I was when I build my single-speed hill repeat bike. It ran a 39-21 (freewheel). On the way back from repeats, I started seeing how high I could take it on mild descents. When I saw that I could get over 30mph, I really went for it and got 33mph. Sheldon's calculator tells me that's ~228rpm.

I don't doubt people can get a lot faster than that with practice on the track.

I've found my peak 5s wattage still comes on at about 110rpm, but if I get caught in the wrong gear by a fast mover from the back of the pack, it's comforting to know that I'm capable of doubling my speed without shifting if necessary :)

I do think being able to spin like that helps the pedal stroke out too.

I was thinking of building a pretty low gear single speed for that same training purpose. But how do you get comfortable spinning so fast while standing?

I was thinking of building a pretty low gear single speed for that same training purpose. But how do you get comfortable spinning so fast while standing?

It's a lot easier if you're putting out pretty high power. Higher than you could hold for a minute, but not 5s kind of power. So, you want to find terrain that allows power to just barely be the limiter, right before cadence would be the limiter. For me, this turned out to be a downhill that had me coasting at 22-24 mph. The effort is also extremely short, so it's not like I was riding around like this for warm-up or something :)

Interesting. I've always heard to find a very slight uphill.

I have a question about your comments on which is the limiter. A typical sprint interval for me with or without a lead-out involves me ramping up the pace over several hundred meters, building cadence to 115-120 or so, then shift, stand, shift more for 100-200m. If i wind up in the 50/12, I either feel one of two ways: 1) that last shift made my legs slow down too much and I'm not doing that much good--might as well shift down one, sit, and lock the ankles again, or 2) I feel like I'm going to pull the bike over sideways with each pedal stroke because I want to exert more power on the pedals than the resistance lets me.

In 1), is power the limiter? Is that what you mean, or do I have it backwards?
In 2), it seems the way to solve the problem is to figure out some way to get more control and spin faster. Is this the type of drill you mean, or would this be taking it too far into the land of cadence being the limiter?

Thanks.

Interesting. I've always heard to find a very slight uphill.

I have a question about your comments on which is the limiter. A typical sprint interval for me with or without a lead-out involves me ramping up the pace over several hundred meters, building cadence to 115-120 or so, then shift, stand, shift more for 100-200m. If i wind up in the 50/12, I either feel one of two ways: 1) that last shift made my legs slow down too much and I'm not doing that much good--might as well shift down one, sit, and lock the ankles again, or 2) I feel like I'm going to pull the bike over sideways with each pedal stroke because I want to exert more power on the pedals than the resistance lets me.

In 1), is power the limiter? Is that what you mean, or do I have it backwards?
In 2), it seems the way to solve the problem is to figure out some way to get more control and spin faster. Is this the type of drill you mean, or would this be taking it too far into the land of cadence being the limiter?

Thanks.

Well, we're talking about two very different durations. When you reach the end of a fitness training interval, fatigue is starting to play a much bigger role. When you fatigue a lot, you lose form, so high cadence becomes much more difficult to hold. At the end of a spinning interval (for form, not fitness), fatigue is setting in, but more from coordination of the muscles than actual Wattage developed.

Several hundred meters is REALLY long sprint training. At the end of that, you're not going to have much form left.

You've got the limiters -- 1) and 2) -- correct though. When you can't go any faster because you're out of power, it's a power limited sprint. When you can't go any faster because your legs won't coordinate at that RPM, it's cadence limited.

So, to train the spin at the upper limit, I do really short sprints (~5 seconds) on descents that allow me to have at least a little resistance.

You can also improve your high rpm spin on regular rides. Every once in a while, on a down hill, stay in the gear you were in at the top and just keep spinning faster as you descend.

So now there's finally a purpose for cadence on the computer .... comparing max rpm stats !!

214 is the max i have ever hit...228? Well, for a NON Trackie like me, that is just insanity...maybe next year. Oh, and that was in the saddle...228 standing? yikes.

I wish I was a trackie. I'd like to try the kilo. I'd REALLY like to try it.

228 standing: hmmm: I really don't remember standing or sitting. I could be wrong there. I'm assuming I was standing because I was laying down a bit of a sprint.

214 is wound-up too.

i have a 50x34 with a 11-26 cassette...

i'm entering my first road race in may. will i have to eventually change my gears? or will i be ok?

i have a 50x34 with a 11-26 cassette...

i'm entering my first road race in may. will i have to eventually change my gears? or will i be ok?

You'll have to change them when the teeth get worn. Until then, you'll be ok.

I don't use a trainer only rollers, I can hit 178-180 on the rollers seated. Standing 155. On a trainer I could probably go faster.

i have a 50x34 with a 11-26 cassette...

i'm entering my first road race in may. will i have to eventually change my gears? or will i be ok?

If you're not climbing 15%+ grades for miles, I'd replace the 34T with a 36T to get a smoother transition from the big to small chainring. Not so much a big deal on a casual ride, but a race isn't really a casual ride.....

If you're not climbing 15%+ grades for miles, I'd replace the 34T with a 36T to get a smoother transition from the big to small chainring. Not so much a big deal on a casual ride, but a race isn't really a casual ride.....

To be completely honest, I'm not sure that's 100% necessary.

I have a 50/34 and I don't feel the need to get a new chainring. The shifting isn't as crisp as a regular double, but I've never dropped my chain on the upshift or downshift with everything set up.

You do need to remember to shift to a harder gear before shifting to the smaller ring though, or the resistance change is really funky.

hmmmm. this is interesting to me. i am no good at sprinting, but can hit a pretty high cadence. i know for a fact that i held 212 rpm for 30 seconds on monday and that was pretty much for fun during a recovery ride. if only my legs were stronger.

btw, this is what i thought the post was going to be about when i read the thread title (see guy in red on far right):

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/apr08/georgia08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/apr08/georgia08/georgia083/JD_08TDGstg3_henderson

To be completely honest, I'm not sure that's 100% necessary.

I have a 50/34 and I don't feel the need to get a new chainring. The shifting isn't as crisp as a regular double, but I've never dropped my chain on the upshift or downshift with everything set up.

You do need to remember to shift to a harder gear before shifting to the smaller ring though, or the resistance change is really funky.

Have you done any races yet with hills?