Tandem Cycling - Screaming Stoker

Hi - We purchased a DaVinci Joint Venture and love it. Especially the fact that I can coast during maneuvers and take a break when needed (but only for a few seconds) The only problem I am having is the speed that we get going..I tend to scream when we hit 37 mph and he wants to go 50! I feel I should be wearing my motorcycling leathers to be safe? How does one get over the fear of falling off? Thanks for any input...Sandy D. Trevdaremom... P.S. I do trust my captains skills but I'm still screaming...

Some of it is trust and experience, but on the other hand, the stoker is always right. As captain, I always defer the the preferences of the stoker. Here is a link to a post (http://tracywilkins.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/we-do-it-every-year/)I made earlier this week about the same subject. It's buried down near the bottom.

No magic bullet that I know of. You may or may not get used to the higher speeds. In any case, it sounds like you are off to a great start with your combined enjoyment of riding the tandem.

Sounds from the back of the bike...when 'Wheee; becomes 'Eeee!!', it's time to slow down.
- mac

My stoker and I have been riding for a littl over a year now. When we first started she didn't want to go over 20 mph. Then it was 30. When she became confortable w/ 30, she instituted what I've come to refer to as the "don't ask - don't tell" stoker rule. she doesn't ask and I don't tell. Her comfort level is now 40, and she wants to know how fast we're going (or how fast we're accelerating if going downhill) up to 40. but after that - mums the word. That emabled us to hit our personal high of 53.3 mph last sunday going downhill with the (Kansas) 35 mph wind at our backs.

Works for us.

...I tend to scream when we hit 37 mph

There's just something about a screamer :)... Less I digress


...How does one get over the fear of falling off?

The fear of falling off? That's not one I've heard before. Having a crash as a result of a tire puncture, road debris, slick road, sharp turn taken too fast, or from a motorist pulling out in front of you are the normal fears and anxieties for most cyclists.

That said, it sounds like you may be new to cycling and if this is the case it will simply take some time to get used to the very exposed and vulnerable feeling that comes from moving along at very high speeds where clearly any type of collision or problem that puts you in contact with the ground or an immovable object is going to leave a mark.

Being a motorcyclist whose had a few shunts on and off the track over the past 30 years, I head off to work each day wearing full coverage -- leather or textile pants & jacket, leather gloves, touring boots, and a full-face helmet -- because it's the prudent thing to do to minimize the risk of injury should anything bad happen... and it occassionally does. So, yes, it can be a bit discomforting when you're moving along on your bicycle at any speed above a running pace with your bare legs and arms exposed, a micro-thin layer of lycra covering the rest of your body that will pretty much shred upon contact with the ground, and a piece of plastic coated styrofoam on your head that costs about as much as some very good full-face DOT / SNELL-approved helmets, but that clearly won't do much beyond reducing the damage to a skull on initial impact. In fact, it would be analogous to riding a motorcycle in shorts and a T-shirt with one of those cute little decorative helmets favored by the V-Twin cruiser crowd. Hey, wait a minute... you DO see a lot of folks dressed like that.

Therein lies the answer: you simply accept and recognize the risks because you've now demonstrated that you're smart enough to know that there ARE risks. Now, it's fair to say if 37mph is about the extent of your comfort level right now then I'd recommend you and your captain have a serious talk about keeping the tandem below that point. Similar to motorcycles, the last thing the person up front needs is someone behind them screaming or squealing in their ear and getting all tensed-up: it can startle the driver and throws off the handling and control of the bike. Moreover, if you have a habit of trying to look around while the bike is flying down hills, that REALLY makes steering a tandem in a straight and predicable path a bit of a challenge.

Of course, as you put more miles in on the tandem and find yourselves riding with others you may find that you can raise your comfort level to handle 40, 45, or that 50 mph goal that your captain has in mind.


P.S. I do trust my captains skills but I'm still screaming...

You may trust his skills, but how about his judgement? Seriously, if you're being spooked that much (and I suspect that you may be adding a bit of color to your posting, which is why I've replied in kind), then there are definitely some trust issues.

Bottom Line: It's your trust and confidence in both your captain's skills and judgement which comes with time and experience on the tandem that will determine the limits of your comfort zone. If he's knowingly exceeding your comfort zone, then it's the judgement your screams are calling into question.

Our attitudes toward high speed descents have morphed over time. We live in a rural hilly area and once upon a time only anything over 45 - 50 mph seemed excessive until the time the deer ran out in front of us. It wasn't that creature so much as the one right behind the first that really applied the pucker factor. I swear I could smell the deer sweat as we flew past and missed it by about a foot. No exaggeration. It would have been awful. I now much prefer to have my lovely unscarred stoker limit our speed to, say, 25 mph with the drum brake and enjoy a relaxing scenic coast with a couple of extra nanoseconds to respond to whatever lurks ahead.

We have had our tandem since August of last year. In the beginning my wife did not want to exceed 30mph. Which I abided with. As her confidence in herself and my skills has increased, so has the speeds. Now she thinks 40 on a curvy descent in not bad at all. Also keep in mind, the faster you go, the sooner the ride will be over! Enjoy all the time on the tandem that you can.

David

Do not exceed your comfort level . . . for now. Comfort levels do change with experience/time in the saddle.
Having said that, our comfort level has been reduced due to being a bit older (not really wiser) and as we age a bit, it does take longer to heal. Stoker Kay still has a couple scars from a few decades ago.
Pilot is currently 'mending' after a good crash on his single 2 days ago. Huge hematoma on left hip + bit of road rash. So what is a 'good crash?' That's one where you don't break any bones.
Went out testing the legs this morning . . . yup, everything works.
So, have the captain be a bit nicer to you . . . slow down a tad (for now). If not, next time he exceeds your speed comfort zone, yank down the rear of his shorts and hook'em over back of his saddle!
Enjoy the ride TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/aonatandem

+1 on don't exceed your comfort level...and may the Captain not exceed his/her talent level.
We all understand that there are risks in cycling in the best of circumstances and we accept that.
However, as I have "matured" I am no longer willing to needlessly risk time out of the saddle for my bones and hide to heal in exchange for seeing a slightly higher number on my speedometer. Most importantly I don't ever want my stoker to be hurt because I raised the risk bar too high and ran out of the ability to handle a given situation. On our tandem I simply leave a larger safety margin knowing my aging reflexes can use the extra reaction time for the unexpected.
With all that being said, I (like many of us) still have a large ego with a serious need for speed and the rush that comes from taking it to the brink and coming back in one piece... I satisfy that need while wearing every safety device known to man and in a vehicle designed to protect you when the inevitable disaster does happen .. I choose not to look for that rush on a tandem that is built for two very exposed people to enjoy their time together on... then again I respect that everyone gets to make our own choices on this.....just be safe and enjoy.
Bill J.

We began tandeming after 30 years of riding singles. On our singles my wife and I were comfortable with letting the bikes go on the downhills if their was a clear view and it was clean enough and straight enough. My wife preferred to follow me on the downhills. In our southern Indiana hills, this means top speeds in the 40's on singles. So... we get a tandem and our first rides are out along a ridge as we just get used to riding / communicating together. Within a week, we decide we are ready to go in our favorite direction which will include descending and climbing several times.

The first downhill is less than two miles from our house. The road is a county road and it's a little bumpy because of the uneven patching the county does on the roads around here but we've been down this hill on singles literally hundreds of times at 30 plus mph. It's a straight shot and as we go down, I am feeling very comfortable even as we pick up speed because we are on the tandem. I find myself braking some but not a lot and nothing sudden. As we are cruising along the bottom, my wife says to me, "I thought we were going to die or get hurt real bad." I had no idea. She didn't scream - scared speechless instead. Being on the back of the tandem, with no direct forward vision and no braking or steering control, took what had been a very familiar and friendly hill and turned it into a nightmare.

We kept the speeds down for several weeks after that. It also helped for me to say more about the road conditions as we rode along, announcing a bumpy section or saying that it's clear and smooth, curve coming or whatever. Probably most important was to convey that we wouldn't go faster than she wanted to go and she could say slow down or whatever and I would listen. She became more and more comfortable and we now let the tandem go full speed on some downhills, including the original scary one, and another favorite long smooth steep hill with speeds faster than we had ever gone before.

We have some friends who began riding a tandem without either of them having ridden much on single bikes. At the beginning, the captain wasn't as smooth and predictable as I was - I only know this because we traded stokers sometimes as they were learning and she and my wife would tell me. The other stoker was comfortable going faster with me on a downhill than she was with her captain until he learned how to shift smoothly and not make what the stoker perceived as small sudden jerks with the steering to miss some little bump or hole that he should have been noticing earlier so it would feel like he was holding more of a steady line and not jerk the stoker around.

There's hardly anything worse for a stoker than feeling in danger with no control while going too fast down a hill so I hope your captain listens to you and understands. If it is possible to arrange, having him ride as a stoker for someone else will probably give him a sense of what you are feeling but he should be able to understand it from what you are saying.

This spring on a trip, I screwed up going down a long hill but not a crazy steep hill on what I perceived as a descent with clear views and gradual curves and a very smooth surface. The trip leader had said that the road may end in gravel so be careful at the end. I felt like I could see great. My wife was thinking about the gravel-at-the-end comment and said to me to slow down and I didn't understand why in the world with this great view and I didn't slow down and she yelled it again and I was not responsive. It was one of my poorer moments on the tandem.

It wasn't good to have violated her trust but it also pointed out that what made us have a great time in general was that we did communicate well and that incident was a unfortunate exception and bone-headed move on my part.

Take care.

Bloomington, IN

Thanks for all the consideration and understanding of a screamin stoker. I'm glad to know I am not the only gal who gets nervous on the down hills. I have passed all the good ideas on to my captain husband and I think he is understanding and wants to be a good captain. He can ride his single bikes as fast as he wants.We are going to ride the TOSRV over mothers day from Columbus, ohio to Portsmouth, Ohio. The Tour Of the Scoito River Valley. He has done it every year on a single bike so I hope I can make it. We are really enjoying our
DaVinci Joint Venture. Of the 11 bikes my husband owns he says this is is favorite! We hope to do a lot of safe riding this summer. I really do appreciate all your kind words and especially the advice. Here we go...The summer is just starting here in Sunny Cleveland, Ohio! Thanks..Sandy D. Trevdaremom - mom to sons
Trevor-Transferred to KC, Mo and Darren-attending Cleveland Marshall Law school. Hope to stay in touch...

People that work at considerable heights get accustomed to the height and it doesn't bother them. Ditto with people that do rock climbing. One problem in either case is that they get accustomed to it, it doesn't bother them, but it doesn't necessarily make it any safer, either. So periodically, you'll hear of construction workers or rock climbers dying, even some of the very best.

I suppose it's similar with driving race cars.

My point is that you may get accustomed to doing 50 on a bicycle, but that doesn't mean it's any safer. Don't be afraid to stick to what you feel is a reasonable and safe speed. Just like driving a car, there will always be somebody going faster.

I guess I'm still a real wimp. When we started riding our tandem a few years ago, I was lucky if I would let him go as fast as 20 mph at any given time. Many a time have I bitten my lip until it was almost bloody from being a scared stoker. I have gotten braver over time, but not by much. The fastest we have ever done downhill is 30 mph in Palm Springs. I think I'm still improving but we still don't ride our tandem as much as we would like. My husband has been a good sport about it and now knows my comfort level and will only go a little faster if he thinks, and I agree, that I can handle it. Coasting down hill, he will generally let me have the say as to when I want him to slow down. That makes me feel like I have some sort of control in the matter. The way I think about it, it's not how fast you go, but did you have a good time.

This is how a guy I know would handle the sale of a new tandem to couples inexperienced with tandem riding:

1. Take the new stoker for a test ride. Make it a nice, slow leisurely ride.

2. Take the new captain for a test ride, only he gets to sit in the stoker seat. Go fast, dive through corners, and when you are done let them know that they now know how their stoker is going to feel and to keep that in mind when they get into the pilot seat.

Stokers can do a bit of "steering" sometimes. I wouldn't want to be on a bike going over 40MPH, with a freaked out stoker making the bike jump all over.

Stoker comfort at speed is relative, and in our case has less to do with the number on the speedometer and more to do with my performance as a captain. When I have been particularly adept during a ride (good communication, starts, stops, called all the bumps, shifted properly, etc.) my stoker doesn't mind at all (in fact enjoys, according to report) some speed on a smooth, predictable downhill. To the contrary, when I've been sloppy (abrupt stops, bike leaning, swerves, missed bumps, poor and untimely shifting, etc.) my stoker is much more likely to tell me to slow down (can't say that I blame her).

The other side of the coin is that I have much more pleasurable rides and get more from my stoker (courtesy calls, points to interesting stuff along the way, navigation, power on the hills, etc.) when I'm captaining well. We're fairly new to the sport (about 2k miles), but are learning to be a team.

Cheers!

Have done decades of 'how to' for folks who wanted to learn to tandem.
Our aprroach was similar as above.
Explain the intricasies of how to ride TWOgeher, stressing communication.
Let the prospective pilot out solo to get the feel of the long bike. Then put newbie pilot in the stoker spot with Rudy captaining. Within the first 100 ft Rudy would rip through the gears, hit the brakes, swerve and then casually mention 'this is what happens if pilot does not communicate'. A quick and practical lesson.
Of course, the prospective stoker gets on with Rudy as pilot and we do all things just right. And usually she is all smiles when she gets off.
Only then do we let them ride TWOgether.
Pedal on!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

This is how a guy I know would handle the sale of a new tandem to couples inexperienced with tandem riding:

1. Take the new stoker for a test ride. Make it a nice, slow leisurely ride.

2. Take the new captain for a test ride, only he gets to sit in the stoker seat. Go fast, dive through corners, and when you are done let them know that they now know how their stoker is going to feel and to keep that in mind when they get into the pilot seat.

Stokers can do a bit of "steering" sometimes. I wouldn't want to be on a bike going over 40MPH, with a freaked out stoker making the bike jump all over.
Precisely why I ordered and picked up our Santana without bringing my wife.
I was already sensitive to stokers having ridden around dozens of couples and witnessing their lack of same.
I felt no need to go through Bill McCready's indoctrination.;)