Road Bike Racing - Self-Timed Time Trial Timing Question

We have an informal 10 mile time trial every month. Informal as in no registration, self timed, self-seeded, and held on open roads with some traffic. There was some controversy last week when several people got caught at a long light and at least some of them subtracted the stopped time from their total. One person that was not stopped at the light got upset and this apparently started a whole chain of emails. I didn't get any of them, I only heard about it secondhand, after the fact.

This has prompted a debate between myself and some others about whether it is "fair" to subtract stopped time or if that is cheating. Apparently in the past participants were instructed to subtract stopped time but I have not heard the instruction recently. At issue is the question of whether the rest that you get is greater than the penalty of the time you lost; i.e. can you make that time up because you are now somewhat rested? Or is the "rest" itself a penalty because it has broken the rythmn, etc. irrespective of the time lost?

Maybe one person each month should volunteer to keep time. If there's enough riders you could even organize it so someone keeps time for most of the riders, then gets relieved by someone who's completed the course and can ride.

Can you change the course? A stoplight on a TT course seems like asking for trouble.

I used to run an informal TT series, and I always made it very clear that riders MUST stop for traffic and that they will get a time adjustment. Otherwise, someone's going to blow through an intersection and get smacked, 'cause they didn't want to lose time. I don't see any other decision you can make.

Maybe one person each month should volunteer to keep time. If there's enough riders you could even organize it so someone keeps time for most of the riders, then gets relieved by someone who's completed the course and can ride.

The way we did ours, riders were given a time slot and self-started by a clock at the start/finish line. I went first with a 5 minute lead to make sure I could get back in time to start recording finish times. So we all got to ride and I was the only one who had to self-time.

Can you change the course? A stoplight on a TT course seems like asking for trouble.

I used to run an informal TT series, and I always made it very clear that riders MUST stop for traffic and that they will get a time adjustment. Otherwise, someone's going to blow through an intersection and get smacked, 'cause they didn't want to lose time. I don't see any other decision you can make.

The course has been changed, but I am more interested in the answer the philosophical question. There is also a triathlon the next town over that goes over train tracks, and they tell participants that they will adjust times (they have an official to keep track). The person I was debating with said that in her running races, they typically don't adjust times for uncontrollable stops and she was held up by a train on a recent race.

I've never been stopped in a running race.

I think the advantage would be to the stopped people, if the time was over XX seconds. If it was under XX seconds, the deceleration/acceleration/lost rhythm would be more problematic than the recovery was advantageous.

Now... can I answer the question "What is XX?" Perhaps 30 seconds?

Informal as in no registration, self timed, self-seeded, and held on open roads with some traffic.

If they are that concerned with winning a TT that gives nothing more than bragging rights, they should move on to a sanctioned, timed, closed course TT. Sometimes people need to remember that racing is as much about fun and being part of the cycling community as much or more than winning.

I can't see any possibility of making up the time that you're stopped. If you simplify it, it would be the same as going as hard as you can for as long as you can hold it, and then stopping to recover, and then doing it again. If it was faster or just as fast to stop and recover in the middle of the course, the pros would be doing that.

Also, the acceleration from 0 mph to whatever your TT speed is takes a lot of energy, probably much more than it would take just to hold that speed constant. Plus you'd have to go faster than your normal TT speed to make up for the time that you're stopped.

I know that this ends up being a math problem ("Train A leaves from Chicago at 45 mph, and Train B leaves from...) but I'm feeling too lazy to think about that on a friday afternoon.

To add another data point, I was on a break during a training race last night with one other guy. We had to wait for traffic that was on the road that we were turning onto, and the person marshaling the corner flagged us to stop. We didn't come to a complete stop (the car ended up turning instead of going straight), but it slowed us down a lot. After we ramped our speed up to what we had been holding before, the group was barreling toward us. We were caught shortly afterward.

I can't see any possibility of making up the time that you're stopped. If you simplify it, it would be the same as going as hard as you can for as long as you can hold it, and then stopping to recover, and then doing it again. If it was faster or just as fast to stop and recover in the middle of the course, the pros would be doing that.

Also, the acceleration from 0 mph to whatever your TT speed is takes a lot of energy, probably much more than it would take just to hold that speed constant. Plus you'd have to go faster than your normal TT speed to make up for the time that you're stopped.

I know that this ends up being a math problem ("Train A leaves from Chicago at 45 mph, and Train B leaves from...) but I'm feeling too lazy to think about that on a friday afternoon.

The way I see it, is that if you could make up the stopped time because you were more rested, everybody would stop halfway through their TT, rest for 30 seconds, and then go again. That doesn't seem to happen, so draw your own conclusions...

if I was self timing a stoplight would kill the deal for me. start to finish with no stops.

If they are that concerned with winning a TT that gives nothing more than bragging rights, they should move on to a sanctioned, timed, closed course TT. Sometimes people need to remember that racing is as much about fun and being part of the cycling community as much or more than winning.

+1.

If they are that concerned with winning a TT that gives nothing more than bragging rights, they should move on to a sanctioned, timed, closed course TT. Sometimes people need to remember that racing is as much about fun and being part of the cycling community as much or more than winning.

as stated by a true loser ;)

I know the course and I know both riders that are part of the debate (both good guys). The course is in the shape of a cross w/ 4 right hand turns and 3 left turns, the left turns being complete sharp hair-pin U-turns. For the most part, the course is safe w/ an occasional slowing if a vehicle is in the right turn lane. You don't have to cross any intersections and the street light intersections are at the right hand turns, so they are not much of an issue, other than having to slow down (but not stop) when coming to them.

I believe the issue was that the fudging of times was questionable.....15 seconds. And the person that brought up the issue was riding behind the rider that deducted from his time and saw the rider the whole time, and apparently 15 seconds was a bit much. Everyone is on the same course and dealing w/ the same problems, the time recorded should be the actual time. The problem w/ fudging time is that you have to justify it or give reasons why. Giving actual time is just that, the actual time it took to finish the course. No expanation needed. S**T happens, even in sanctioned races.

As far as I know, this was discussed and delt w/ weeks ago. I'm surprised people are still making a big deal out of it. The TT is a local thing, but riders pull out all the aero equipment and hit it as hard as possible. People are racing for bragging rights, which is what makes it fun. Times are compared on site and posted at the end of the week in the newspaper. This situation shouldn't turn into a huge issue. Its local and its fun.

I know the course and I know both riders that are part of the debate (both good guys). The course is in the shape of a cross w/ 4 right hand turns and 3 left turns, the left turns being complete sharp hair-pin U-turns. For the most part, the course is safe w/ an occasional slowing if a vehicle is in the right turn lane. You don't have to cross any intersections and the street light intersections are at the right hand turns, so they are not much of an issue, other than having to slow down (but not stop) when coming to them.

I believe the issue was that the fudging of times was questionable.....15 seconds. And the person that brought up the issue was riding behind the rider that deducted from his time and saw the rider the whole time, and apparently 15 seconds was a bit much. Everyone is on the same course and dealing w/ the same problems, the time recorded should be the actual time. The problem w/ fudging time is that you have to justify it or give reasons why. Giving actual time is just that, the actual time it took to finish the course. No expanation needed. S**T happens, even in sanctioned races.

As far as I know, this was discussed and delt w/ weeks ago. I'm surprised people are still making a big deal out of it. The TT is a local thing, but riders pull out all the aero equipment and hit it as hard as possible. People are racing for bragging rights, which is what makes it fun. Times are compared on site and posted at the end of the week in the newspaper. This situation shouldn't turn into a huge issue. Its local and its fun.

Actually I don't think anyone is still making a big deal about it. The course was just changed and I was telling a co-worker about the change and the stoplight issue. She told me her take on counting stopping time in a race, which prompted me to post here to get everyone's take on it.

Regarding the actual incident, my timer stops when I'm not moving so that's the time I reported (not that anyone cares about my pathetic time).

The way I see it, is that if you could make up the stopped time because you were more rested, everybody would stop halfway through their TT, rest for 30 seconds, and then go again. That doesn't seem to happen, so draw your own conclusions...
I would wager that the time spent slowing down for the light and the time and energy spent accelerating back to speed would cost at least as much as the rest gained you.

But really, time trialing on open roads with traffic lights is ********. It's probably a great training tool, which is why nobody needs to get pissed about anything. Were there prizes involved? If so, that's ********. If not, who cares what the results were? That's like those a-holes treating the Rose Bowl Ride like Le Tour.

But do try to find a better course. I'm sure there's a stretch of road out there without lights or stop signs. Where I grew up, I used to do 10 mile practice time trials in Hidden Valley (south of Westlake, CA) because it was a nice, remote 5 mile stretch of road. One one occasion did I have to slow and wait a tad for a car to go by before I did the turn-around.

I would wager that the time spent slowing down for the light and the time and energy spent accelerating back to speed would cost at least as much as the rest gained you.

But really, time trialing on open roads with traffic lights is ********. It's probably a great training tool, which is why nobody needs to get pissed about anything. Were there prizes involved? If so, that's ********. If not, who cares what the results were? That's like those a-holes treating the Rose Bowl Ride like Le Tour.

But do try to find a better course. I'm sure there's a stretch of road out there without lights or stop signs. Where I grew up, I used to do 10 mile practice time trials in Hidden Valley (south of Westlake, CA) because it was a nice, remote 5 mile stretch of road. One one occasion did I have to slow and wait a tad for a car to go by before I did the turn-around.

There is a new course (http://www.photoscene.com/kimandsteve/307/new-time-trial-course), which will be used next month. The light was added after people had been using that course for a long time; it is a fairly new addition. The new course shifts down the street again so that it ends at the light (it goes through it in the other direction, but its a "T" instersection and doesn't cross traffic).

And Hidden Valley is nice, I've been out there a few times. There isn't really anything completely like that here; nowhere to get such a long uninterrupted run except for the freeway.