"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - So, seriously, that's "legal"?

From another thread . . .

"Shoving Cat4's out of the paceline to move in is another one of his tactics. Hand on the hip and push. Legal, sure . . ."

I'm just getting started in the criterium scene, so don't know all the details yet . . . but, really, you can physically force a guy out of a spot that you want (and I don't mean by keeping your hand on your bars and using aggressive navigation) -- just ride up next to him, actually push his body aside with your hand, and take the wheel he was on?

If so, I'm not going to last long with this racing thing. 'Cause I'm just a former offensive lineman with a borderline anger management problem. If somebody did that to me, there's a 50% chance that, when the race was over, I would find the guy and beat the **** out of him. And it's only a 50% chance because the other half of the time I wouldn't wait until the race is over, but rather take my spot back with a retaliatory "hand to his hip" that not only removed him from the paceline but had him eatking roadside shrubbery.

To be honest, a lot of riders will get out of the way if you just put your hand on their hip and give them a nudge. It's not "shove", but you can certainly nudge them off the wheel pretty easily. I've never had to do it though I've seen it done in Japan when I raced there. The riders there are very aggressive, so if it's from the Pro riding the lower cat races, I wouldn't be surprised if he does.

Don't confuse a hand on the hip with a shoving match. Further, don't worry about it in the lower cats.

I've only been racing for a year, so take what I say with a grain of salt..

The most aggressive racers I've ever seen were in south florida. One pulled out a glock and pointed it at someone to get him to move.

Don't worry about it happening in the states much.

I'm sure Asgelle or someone will chime in, but I'm pretty sure hands off the bars=fault.

It's against the rules to push someone. Occassionally people will lean on you, either accidentally, or intentionally. It's not a problem if you stay loose and don't let it shake you up.

In my experience in the lower categories, most of the bumping is inadvertant, and not done for tactical advantage.

As a former offensive lineman, you must be a big guy, people will learn not to mess with you, particularly if you just let them know you won't yield to aggression.

One advantage of being big is that 135lb bike riders just bounce off if they try to muscle you for position.

Few times that it's happened to me, I just look at them, laugh, and ask them who they think is likely to go down between the 2 of us.

First its gently pushing someone off their line. Pretty soon your shoving a pump into some poor townie's wheel. Where will the violence end?

Rubbing's racing. Or in the 4/5's, its crashing. If you're racing you should learn how to bump bars and hips and elbows.

there have been times in the cat 3s where I have leaned on a guy with my full weight in order to get a wheel in a sprint. To the point where we are almost locking bars its bike racing.

In the 1/2 field if you see someone coming on your inside through a corner who is going to take your line you move over on them and but your hip on their handlebars and they will back down. Usually putting your hand one someone and pushing them is looked upon as bad. Putting your bars in front of their bars and pushing them out with your hip is not only common but not really looked upon as *****holeish, they should have protected their wheel better.

In the cat 4s contact and pushing people out of a pace line isnt real common since they are not as comfortable on their bike.

I've only been racing for a year, so take what I say with a grain of salt..

The most aggressive racers I've ever seen were in south florida. One pulled out a glock and pointed it at someone to get him to move.
:roflmao::roflmao: Are you sure that it wasn't in Wyoming??

In a windy RR I did this past weekend I was blown off a wheel (40mph gusts) and when I attempted to move back in a guy came up and took it from me. He put his hand on my hip and nudged me a bit. I could have done one of two things: 1) continue to take the wheel, I was in position to do so as I was in front of him or 2) I could yield. I'm a 5. I did the stupid thing. I sucked wind and blew up a while later.

I saw him doing the same thing to another rider and I think he was using it more defensively as he was not "pushing." People were all over the damn road that day, anyway.

i usually just give them a lil spank on the tush to let them know what i REALLY want. They move out and never let me draft behind them

I've only been racing for a year, so take what I say with a grain of salt..

The most aggressive racers I've ever seen were in south florida. One pulled out a glock and pointed it at someone to get him to move.

Note to self, pack heat in first race.

One advantage of being big is that 135lb bike riders just bounce off if they try to muscle you for position.


You're not helping my motivation to drop pounds!

If so, I'm not going to last long with this racing thing. 'Cause I'm just a former offensive lineman with a borderline anger management problem. If somebody did that to me, there's a 50% chance that, when the race was over, I would find the guy and beat the **** out of him. And it's only a 50% chance because the other half of the time I wouldn't wait until the race is over, but rather take my spot back with a retaliatory "hand to his hip" that not only removed him from the paceline but had him eatking roadside shrubbery.

you're definitely not going to last if this is seriously your attitude. you wont be missed either

Keep in mind that taking your hand off your bars and touching someone else is illegal. Doesn't matter what you do, even a slight nudge is illegal and a suspendable/dq'able offense. This is why you see heads and shoulders nudging and tilting. McEwen, when he "head butts" someone, is not actually head butting anyone - he's simply trying to keep off the guy without violating the rules - taking his hand off his bar.

As a long time crit and "close quarters" racer, if you take your hands off your bars, you already made a mistake. It's almost never necessary and should not be an "optional" move (i.e. either I do blah blah or I nudge the guy). The best and most aggressive racers I've encountered would never think about taking a hand off their bars, it's simply not necessary. I don't even think of them as "good guys", I actually severely dislike some of them, but to my recollection, in 10-15 years of racing against these extremely good racers, they basically never take a hand off their bars. They frustrate me but they do it by being better bike handlers, not by taking shortcuts.

cdr

Crazy 4's were pulling this shart a few weeks ago during a race.. Next one that touches my hip during a race will pull back a nub.

you're definitely not going to last if this is seriously your attitude. you wont be missed either

Of course he is joking, no-one is that big of an as$.

Keep in mind that taking your hand off your bars and touching someone else is illegal. Doesn't matter what you do, even a slight nudge is illegal and a suspendable/dq'able offense. This is why you see heads and shoulders nudging and tilting. McEwen, when he "head butts" someone, is not actually head butting anyone - he's simply trying to keep off the guy without violating the rules - taking his hand off his bar.

As a long time crit and "close quarters" racer, if you take your hands off your bars, you already made a mistake. It's almost never necessary and should not be an "optional" move (i.e. either I do blah blah or I nudge the guy). The best and most aggressive racers I've encountered would never think about taking a hand off their bars, it's simply not necessary. I don't even think of them as "good guys", I actually severely dislike some of them, but to my recollection, in 10-15 years of racing against these extremely good racers, they basically never take a hand off their bars. They frustrate me but they do it by being better bike handlers, not by taking shortcuts.

cdr


Tell that to Stewart O'Grady... :)

at 230lbs im not too worried about being pushed around. ill be too busy trying to hang on to the back for it to matter though. :(

Its illegal, but it happens. It happens most (at least in Australia) in road races where there is a strong crosswind and riders are trying to push into the working line so they can get some shelter. Grab em, push em out the way, get in the working line, hope the commasairres didnt see it, worry about the complaining later if they are still there.

Sorry, but any big guy that thinks he can just lean into me (sub-140) and I'll just move is mistaken. You might be bigger, you might be stronger, you might be heavier, but odds are I'm meaner and wily-er.

My bars are lower than yours, my hips are lower than yours, and my elbows are lower than yours. If I get underneath you, which I can do at will, I own you, mind, body and soul. A simple upward movement from any of those body parts, and you're moving away from me.

Sorry, but any big guy that thinks he can just lean into me (sub-140) and I'll just move is mistaken. You might be bigger, you might be stronger, you might be heavier, but odds are I'm meaner and wily-er.

My bars are lower than yours, my hips are lower than yours, and my elbows are lower than yours. If I get underneath you, which I can do at will, I own you, mind, body and soul. A simple upward movement from any of those body parts, and you're moving away from me.


Agreed. As a rider with high confidence (probably misplaced), low low position, and far too much weight, I can pretty much go where I want in a pack.

Of those three qualities balls are the most important, being lower is second, and extra weight/muscle is just a bonus.

Tell that to Stewart O'Grady... :)

He can't beat me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji_XcHvJvac)

Just don't panic when you feel the jabbing in your bum cheek.

It's probably just an sti lever and a sublte way of saying I want that wheel your on. Trackies and ex bmxer's racing crits can make gaps appear anywhere.

If you're a former offensive lineman you may not last past the first 10% upgrade.

Yea but I'm coming for you hard on the back side of that grade!

-Scott

If you're a former offensive lineman you may not last past the first 10% upgrade.

Sometimes a rider will touch another rider on the hip in a silent "on your left" way. That doesn't bother me. I don't think I've seen anything worse than that in tha various categories I've been in.

If you're a former offensive lineman you may not last past the first 10% upgrade.

No doubt. Which is why my progression in "racing" so far has been time trials, to track, and now to some crits, but still not crits with hills (and, believe me, I ask before signing up). Road races are right out.

at 230lbs im not too worried about being pushed around. ill be too busy trying to hang on to the back for it to matter though. :(

That's why packing heat is looking so attractive to me about now. Much easier to pick em off when they are ahead of you...if only they weren't so skinny and would hold a freakin line! Imagine if Jan had been packing when Lance gave him the Look...history might be quite different!

Sometimes a rider will touch another rider on the hip in a silent "on your left" way. That doesn't bother me. I don't think I've seen anything worse than that in tha various categories I've been in.

Granted I've done all of one actual race, but rode for many years on group rides with top level and pro cyclists both in US and abroad, and I'm totally fine with the above....hand on the hip just to let you know someone is there..maybe a gentle nudge to keep some space...absolutely no problem.

Plenty of bar to hip bumping in the pack as well...also no big deal...

Granted I've done all of one actual race, but rode for many years on group rides with top level and pro cyclists both in US and abroad, and I'm totally fine with the above....hand on the hip just to let you know someone is there..maybe a gentle nudge to keep some space...absolutely no problem.

Plenty of bar to hip bumping in the pack as well...also no big deal...

Let me be clear . . . I'm not talking about keeping your hands on your bars and using your hips or body to lean/push in. That sounds to me like agressive racing. I'm also not talking about using your hand to let someone know where you are (which I've done in packs several times -- sort of a "don't move towards me any more" thing to prevent the impending hip-to-your-bars).

Rather, I'm asking if it is legal (or "accepted," or "okay," or a "legitimate tactic," or whatever) to -- as the post I was reading said -- "shove" someone "out of the paceline . . . "hand on the hip and push."

Again, I haven't been racing long enough to know the nuances. But it seems to me that the difference is akin to pitching inside (okay) versus intentionally throwing at the batter's head (not okay).

As for my "attitude," as apprently called out by Lithuania, it is and remains: you pitch me inside, and I'll smile and take it; you throw at my head and I'm charging the mound. I'm just trying to figure out where the line is is bicycle racing.

anything is legal if you don't get caught. however if you scroll back up to the part where is says taking your hands off the bars and pushing someone is illegal I think you'll have the answer to your question.

anything is legal if you don't get caught. however if you scroll back up to the part where is says taking your hands off the bars and pushing someone is illegal I think you'll have the answer to your question.

The Republican National Committee is looking for men like yourself. Please forward your resume immediately. You can send it to the RNC or Fox News, same difference.

Let me be clear . . . I'm not talking about keeping your hands on your bars and using your hips or body to lean/push in. That sounds to me like agressive racing. I'm also not talking about using your hand to let someone know where you are (which I've done in packs several times -- sort of a "don't move towards me any more" thing to prevent the impending hip-to-your-bars).

Rather, I'm asking if it is legal (or "accepted," or "okay," or a "legitimate tactic," or whatever) to -- as the post I was reading said -- "shove" someone "out of the paceline . . . "hand on the hip and push."
Again, I haven't been racing long enough to know the nuances. But it seems to me that the difference is akin to pitching inside (okay) versus intentionally throwing at the batter's head (not okay).

As for my "attitude," as apprently called out by Lithuania, it is and remains: you pitch me inside, and I'll smile and take it; you throw at my head and I'm charging the mound. I'm just trying to figure out where the line is is bicycle racing.

No, that's not cool, and I would be looking for some way to get back at him.

I should point out that although size is an advantage in certain situations, I've held off some very strong and big guys in the middle of a sprint when they tried to move sideways through me. I wouldn't want to face off against him off the bike but on the bike, not a problem. He was trapped between his leadout man (in front of him), another tall guy (to his right), and a little guy (me, on his left). He tried to go through me but couldn't. He didn't take his hands off his bars btw. We laughed about the shove incident afterwards, it was an excellent sprint.

To set my karma account in balance, I let him by on the curb at the next race where the same thing could have happened - I was on the right curb on a right curving sprint, left a tiny gap to try and sucker guys into it. He took the bait and then I realized that I left too big of a gap. I contemplated shutting the door on him but decided against it. He beat me at the line. We laughed after that sprint too.

cdr

From another thread . . .

"Shoving Cat4's out of the paceline to move in is another one of his tactics. Hand on the hip and push. Legal, sure . . ."

I'm just getting started in the criterium scene, so don't know all the details yet . . . but, really, you can physically force a guy out of a spot that you want (and I don't mean by keeping your hand on your bars and using aggressive navigation) -- just ride up next to him, actually push his body aside with your hand, and take the wheel he was on?

If so, I'm not going to last long with this racing thing. 'Cause I'm just a former offensive lineman with a borderline anger management problem. If somebody did that to me, there's a 50% chance that, when the race was over, I would find the guy and beat the **** out of him. And it's only a 50% chance because the other half of the time I wouldn't wait until the race is over, but rather take my spot back with a retaliatory "hand to his hip" that not only removed him from the paceline but had him eatking roadside shrubbery.

have you always been insecure with your masculinity?

As for my "attitude," as apprently called out by Lithuania, it is and remains: you pitch me inside, and I'll smile and take it; you throw at my head and I'm charging the mound. I'm just trying to figure out where the line is is bicycle racing.

im just saying if you have such a short temper about stuff like this you are going to lose your license quick. all kinds of stuff happens in the heat of a race and I have seen other riders pushed in order for someone else to take his spot. Whats going to happen the first time someone crashes you out of a race because he did something dumb? Are you going to beat his ass too? Ive seen that happen too.

like in all sports people are always trying shady stuff to get ahead. Unlike baseball and hockey were fighting isnt a big deal, in amatuer racing it is and charges can be pressed.

Sorry, but any big guy that thinks he can just lean into me (sub-140) and I'll just move is mistaken. You might be bigger, you might be stronger, you might be heavier, but odds are I'm meaner and wily-er.

My bars are lower than yours, my hips are lower than yours, and my elbows are lower than yours. If I get underneath you, which I can do at will, I own you, mind, body and soul. A simple upward movement from any of those body parts, and you're moving away from me.

I like this way of thinking.

im just saying if you have such a short temper about stuff like this you are going to lose your license quick. all kinds of stuff happens in the heat of a race and I have seen other riders pushed in order for someone else to take his spot. Whats going to happen the first time someone crashes you out of a race because he did something dumb? Are you going to beat his ass too? Ive seen that happen too.

like in all sports people are always trying shady stuff to get ahead. Unlike baseball and hockey were fighting isnt a big deal, in amatuer racing it is and charges can be pressed.

+1. If someone took you out intentionally, ok. Sure, get down to fisticuffs.

If your front wheel hits my rear (your fault, always), and you hit me after a race, I'm putting you into a curb in the fastest corner of the next (several) race(s). Hopefully one with a streetlight nearby.

And I won't alert the race officials that your broken body is crumpled in the grass on the outside of Turn 6.

damn what a meat head fest

I wasn't sure about the rule, so:

"1O8. Pushing or pulling among riders is prohibited in all
races except the Madison and then only between members of
the same team. No rider may hold back or pull an opponent
by any part of his or her clothing, equipment or body
[relegation or disqualification]."



and yes, there are a lot of meatheads on bike racing... color me surprised!

im just saying if you have such a short temper about stuff like this . . . Whats going to happen the first time someone crashes you out of a race because he did something dumb?

Nothing. In fact, it happened to me just three weeks ago, when I got crashed by a guy who dove down the track without looking (which, as I understand it, is one of the time where my-front-wheel-and-your-back-wheel is indeed not my fault). He was dumb. I went down. He apologized. He didn't mean to do it. That's life.


like in all sports people are always trying shady stuff to get ahead.

There is a difference, I think, between "dumb" and "shady," or at least between dumb and flat-out illegal. I'm trying to identify that difference, with the help of you more-experienced guys, with respect to in-race contact.


Unlike baseball and hockey were fighting isnt a big deal, in amatuer racing it is and charges can be pressed.

I know. And thanks. And chances are I would never assault a fellow racer (at least not after the race, when I've lost my heat-of-the-moment defense). My tolerance for guys who race hard is not a problem. My tolerance for guys who intentionally try to hurt someone (read: me) to win some two-bit Cat4/5 bike race is very low. And I don't see anything wrong with that.

have you always been insecure with your masculinity?

No. Only since starting to race bikes. I think it's the lycra.

No. Only since starting to race bikes. I think it's the lycra.

as if football uniforms don't look worse

I've only been racing for a year, so take what I say with a grain of salt..

The most aggressive racers I've ever seen were in south florida. One pulled out a glock and pointed it at someone to get him to move.

Pics or it didn't happen.

damn what a meat head fest

We blame it on the testosterone patches...

Sorry, but any big guy that thinks he can just lean into me (sub-140) and I'll just move is mistaken. You might be bigger, you might be stronger, you might be heavier, but odds are I'm meaner and wily-er.

My bars are lower than yours, my hips are lower than yours, and my elbows are lower than yours. If I get underneath you, which I can do at will, I own you, mind, body and soul. A simple upward movement from any of those body parts, and you're moving away from me.

Yup. As the Offensive lineman should well know.

I will sometimes move a dangerous rider into the wind to get rid of him. Or "suggest" to the guy boxing me in that it is in his interest to let me out (after I have asked him nicely) so I can go to the front and work.

If someone has their hand on my hip I can tolerate it or give them a little tap at the elbow joint and the push will lose it's effectiveness. The smack should also be enough of a message about trying to take my wheel that it ends there.

Get used to the contact and don't get too excited about it. It happens.

I find people get waaay more wound up about getting pinched / cut off in a corner, than in incidental contact as the field ebbs and flows. Probably with good justification, since lots of crashes are caused by some asshat diving for the inside-outside line at the last instant.

I'll put my hand out as a tap if a guy's drifting on me, but if the line is snaking and he's following it, it's my problem not his.

Then sometimes the pack will just squeeze and you get caught in a tight space... it's your choice that got you there, and you still got brakes if you get claustrophobic. No need to be pushing people since they probably don't have anywhere to go anyway.

I find people get waaay more wound up about getting pinched / cut off in a corner, than in incidental contact as the field ebbs and flows. Probably with good justification, since lots of crashes are caused by some asshat diving for the inside-outside line at the last instant.
I'll put my hand out as a tap if a guy's drifting on me, but if the line is snaking and he's following it, it's my problem not his.

Then sometimes the pack will just squeeze and you get caught in a tight space... it's your choice that got you there, and you still got brakes if you get claustrophobic. No need to be pushing people since they probably don't have anywhere to go anyway.

Had that happen to me a few years ago in my last Cat. 5 race ever. I'm in the left line of a double line snaking back and forth in a fast-paced road race. At one point the line snakes right and as I move right following the wheel in front of me, the azzhat to my right doesn't move over to stay with his wheel. Instead, he decides to take the wheel I'm following. As I snake right he reaches out a punches me twice in the arm. I look over in amazement, and as I'm looking at him he punches me three more times!

Mind you, this was not the final k leading up to a sprint finish. This was 20 miles into a 35 mile road race.

As we bumped and butted each other for a mile or so several riders behind us began begging us to cut the crap before we caused a big pileup. Eventually he conceded the wheel and a couple of miles later he was OTB. I looked for him after the race so I could share a few thoughts with him, but he'd changed his clothes, or maybe left.

Theoretically when the line snaked and I moved over it should have been his "problem", but apparently he decided to make it MY problem. I sure don't miss racing Cat. 5.

Bob