Professional Cycling For the Fans - So is Landis done?

Did he win/lose with the Court of Arbitration? Amazingly Google doesn't know <gasp>.

We're supposed to find out in June or the middle of summer I think. It will be interesting.

There was a report out of the Karolinska Institute that described an enzyme that
processes testosterone for excretion. It seems that 15% of men in the group tested
(145 volunteers) did not have the enzyme at all and 40% of these did not excrete
enough testosterone even after an injection of the stuff for it to show up. So they
would test neg regardless. At the other end 14% had two copies of the gene so
had a 'superabundance' of the enzyme and thus were hyperexcretors of testosterone
and were positive even in the absence of supplemental testosterone. That is they
were always positive. If Floyd is in this latter group..... , he would ALWAYS test
positive whether he took any or not.

The rest of the bunch had one copy of the gene and 'normal' amounts of the enzyme
and responded appropriately to testing (negative test in the absence of injected
testosterone, positive test when injected.)

Ref: Science News 3/29/008 p. 195

So was that the first drug test he ever took in his life?

There was a report out of the Karolinska Institute that described an enzyme that
processes testosterone for excretion. ...

That's a very nice story, but as I'm sure you know, the results of that test were thrown out for Landis and did not factor in his suspension.

There was a report out of the Karolinska Institute that described an enzyme that
processes testosterone for excretion. It seems that 15% of men in the group tested
(145 volunteers) did not have the enzyme at all and 40% of these did not excrete
enough testosterone even after an injection of the stuff for it to show up. So they
would test neg regardless. At the other end 14% had two copies of the gene so
had a 'superabundance' of the enzyme and thus were hyperexcretors of testosterone
and were positive even in the absence of supplemental testosterone. That is they
were always positive. If Floyd is in this latter group..... , he would ALWAYS test
positive whether he took any or not.

The rest of the bunch had one copy of the gene and 'normal' amounts of the enzyme
and responded appropriately to testing (negative test in the absence of injected
testosterone, positive test when injected.)

Ref: Science News 3/29/008 p. 195

Interesting,

This would imply that the same standardized testing procedure would not be valid for all being tested. This further reinforces the need for longitudinal blood profiling.

This would imply that the same standardized testing procedure would not be valid for all being tested. This further reinforces the need for longitudinal blood profiling.

Nice in theory, but what would you suggest as a standard for a positive result, and how would you insure the only possible way that could be achieved is through illegal methods? Remember, a few weeks ago everyone believed the only way to get a T:E ratio over 4 was through use of exogenous testosterone. Today, not so much.

Nice in theory, but what would you suggest as a standard for a positive result, and how would you insure the only possible way that could be achieved is through illegal methods? Remember, a few weeks ago everyone believed the only way to get a T:E ratio over 4 was through use of exogenous testosterone. Today, not so much.

If you can't reliably test for something, it rather makes a farce out of the entire process. I understand and appreciate WADA's mission, but shouldn't they be concerned that they determine truth as they potentially ruin athletes' careers and reputations?

There was a report out of the Karolinska Institute that described an enzyme that
processes testosterone for excretion. It seems that 15% of men in the group tested
(145 volunteers) did not have the enzyme at all and 40% of these did not excrete
enough testosterone even after an injection of the stuff for it to show up. So they
would test neg regardless. At the other end 14% had two copies of the gene so
had a 'superabundance' of the enzyme and thus were hyperexcretors of testosterone
and were positive even in the absence of supplemental testosterone. That is they
were always positive. If Floyd is in this latter group..... , he would ALWAYS test
positive whether he took any or not.

The rest of the bunch had one copy of the gene and 'normal' amounts of the enzyme
and responded appropriately to testing (negative test in the absence of injected
testosterone, positive test when injected.)

Ref: Science News 3/29/008 p. 195

If that were the case, Floyd would have failed all of his tests prior to the one after his infamous comeback stage.

Nice in theory, but what would you suggest as a standard for a positive result, and how would you insure the only possible way that could be achieved is through illegal methods? Remember, a few weeks ago everyone believed the only way to get a T:E ratio over 4 was through use of exogenous testosterone. Today, not so much.

Very good points, it all points out that there seems to be no perfect method and of course the longitudinal profiling is not a pure cause and effect testing method but it does give a better indication of the riders long term normal blood characteristics.

If you can't reliably test for something, it rather makes a farce out of the entire process. I understand and appreciate WADA's mission, but shouldn't they be concerned that they determine truth as they potentially ruin athletes' careers and reputations?

Sure. But they aren't.

The way they handle this, you'd think they were getting a commission every time a positive turns up.

Look at the rules. Nothing's to be released until the process is completed. That's not what happens. They can't wait to call the press to say, "We got another one!!!"

This is why the riders need a strong union with a collective bargaining agreement to control these things. Now, the rider has no recourse. A big fat lawsuit would stop a lot of this nonsense.

I agree they need to test. Without question. But it's done every day in companies and they do it without fanfare and with respect to the individual.

http://www.velotees.com/prodimages/Small/Black_FreeFloyd_380x352.gif (http://www.velotees.com/proddetail.php?prod=FreeFloyd)

:D :D :D :D :eek:

... Brad

Contrary to popular misbelief, the level of testosterone has never been an issue. It is well known that levels fluctuate wildly with all sorts of factors. The tests are to determine whether whatever T you have is all your own, or whether it is a metabolic product of a steroid.

The tests are to determine whether whatever T you have is all your own, or whether it is a metabolic product of a steroid.

Talk about misbelief.

Talk about misbelief.

What an intelligent reply! Completely without content, yet with a suggestion of sanity. I stand in awe!

I swear it was that weird frosting on the Pop-Tarts.

None the less it was beutiful stage win on Mt. V. .....TDF 06

I loved watching the ride....old time break and dominate...but isn't also an advert. for "look what we can do if you let us dope up"..?

It's really hard to watch again knowing somethings up.

As for Landis....done....next.

Is that day telecast anywhere. Even though it is suspect, it still was a beautiful thing to watch. The looks on peoples faces as he just blew by them.

Unfortunately yes.

I hear from Floyd Landis that he is making a bit of a statement with his plans for a personal comeback this year.. he's going to be bandit riding the entire event, apart from the prologue. he says he'll be so fit that he won't need to sit in a pack all day, he'll be so strong that he'll be first over every mountain, and will be so fast that he'll take every stage. and he'll do it just in front of the (real) winner so that he'll be in every publicity shot too. priceless! we had to have another bottle of scotch after that admission, he was so hyped up.

"what do I need another yellow jersey for? I've already got one, and I can't stand the color anyway" were his parting words as i waved good bye to him on the front porch last night.

Even if he wins he's already done. All he can hope for is a token job with Rock Racing once he's legally able to sign with them, most likely as a director of some sort.

CAS decision on monday!!!

Fail

The CAS attitude and decision on the case is very disturbing. To the point of making me feel that they were paid off. I am not saying I believe Floyd is innocent but they have so completely discounted several expert witnesses testimony that thier decision process cannot be taken seriously.

http://www.velotees.com/prodimages/Small/Black_FreeFloyd_380x352.gif (http://www.velotees.com/proddetail.php?prod=FreeFloyd)

:D :D :D :D :eek:

... Brad

Mark downs? ;)

The CAS attitude and decision on the case is very disturbing. To the point of making me feel that they were paid off. I am not saying I believe Floyd is innocent but they have so completely discounted several expert witnesses testimony that thier decision process cannot be taken seriously.

This was kind of my thought.

Agree. The sport needs to be cleaned up from the top down, not from the bottom up. Not to say that the riders are all innocent, but the hierarchy needs to be regurgitated first.

No TDF for me. The riders should group together and boycott. JMHO

I think he is done and I think he is guilty of the allegations. Fair or not, I have had it with pro athletes of all sports with PEDs. I am too tired of a star having some strong statement against them and then testing positive (marion jones, Raffy Palmero, etc). Fans are way too quick to believe their hero's and accept insane excuses.
Many will say it is not fair, but I (and many others) have taken the guilty until proven otherwise approach to this issue. There is too much money and too much fame on the line and people will do anything to win. It is, at the same time, what makes top athletes amazing and makes many cheat - the win at all costs mindset.

What the CSA really said is that if a rider appeals they will slap him with a 100k fee for his effort......like they did Landis. So what rider would want to appeal anything? Simply put your guilty until proven inocent....and don't forget that because the system does not allow for any real appeal to happen.

I couldn't care less if Landis was doping. That is a personal decision with minor societal issues. I have a bigger problem with the handling of his case which reveals a stunning disregard for fair play, justice, and due process. Landis can be guilty AND get a raw deal which is what I think happened here.

The lesson from this case to every future accused rider is to quit the sport as soon as your accused and fight to keep whatever money you have without regard to your guilt. Fighting isn't worth the costs and you won't ride again so why waste the time/money fighting the corrupt system. If I was a current rider I would squirrel away all my money into someplace the UCI can't sue me for it- just in case.

I couldn't care less if Landis was doping. That is a personal decision with minor societal issues. I have a bigger problem with the handling of his case which reveals a stunning disregard for fair play, justice, and due process. Landis can be guilty AND get a raw deal which is what I think happened here.

The lesson from this case to every future accused rider is to quit the sport as soon as your accused and fight to keep whatever money you have without regard to your guilt. Fighting isn't worth the costs and you won't ride again so why waste the time/money fighting the corrupt system. If I was a current rider I would squirrel away all my money into someplace the UCI can't sue me for it- just in case.

i agree. i think he did it, but the system has nothing to do with due process or fair play. it's really just a kangaroo court

Landis may still get to ride pro for a while with a team like Rock Racing after Jan. of 2009. He could still have a few productive years of making money but at a lower level. However, I don't think the TDF organizers will ever let him in that race again. And if they are not part of UCI they won't have to let him in even if he proves clean and with a clean team.

I couldn't care less if Landis was doping. That is a personal decision with minor societal issues. I have a bigger problem with the handling of his case which reveals a stunning disregard for fair play, justice, and due process. Landis can be guilty AND get a raw deal which is what I think happened here.

The lesson from this case to every future accused rider is to quit the sport as soon as your accused and fight to keep whatever money you have without regard to your guilt. Fighting isn't worth the costs and you won't ride again so why waste the time/money fighting the corrupt system. If I was a current rider I would squirrel away all my money into someplace the UCI can't sue me for it- just in case.

+1 , although I believe Floyd was framed by the organizers. End result is the same, none the less. Fed up with watching TDF or rooting any particular rider or team. Watching Pro cycling has rapidly digressed to kinda like being a dedicated baseball fan.

Regardless of the drug stuff I thought Landis wasn’t going to be able to ride again due to some injury. Wasn’t that one of the big "drama" stories from that TDF or am I thinking of someone else?

Landis finished the Tour with a damaged hip that was replaced shortly afterwards. While no rider has ever competed at that level with an artificial hip Landis was going to try. It is doubtful that a chance to ride the TdF will ever come his way again but he has successfully competed in some marathon MTB competitions with good results.

I'm torn with the whole doping thing. I'm not impressed with Floyd and to be honest I kind of just want him to go away but there's a nagging voice in my head that's whispering that he's getting jobbed and it's fundamentally wrong.


:beer:

I'm torn with the whole doping thing. I'm not impressed with Floyd and to be honest I kind of just want him to go away but there's a nagging voice in my head that's whispering that he's getting jobbed and it's fundamentally wrong.


:beer:

THe powers that be want a fallen hero so that it will impress upon the minds of those who might try to get away with doping that it could prove very costly. It is now a criminal offense to dope in France and if an althlete is caught doping in France during the race he can face not only suspension but 1 year in jail.

Team management distributing doping supplies to their riders in France will face even longer jail times. Up to five or ten years I believe. THis means that if a teams management is providing these things and are caught in France they can go to jail for even longer periods of time.

It's obvious the French are serious about getting rid of this in the TDF. Even to the point of getting unethical themselves.

I for one would like Landis to come back with his artificial hip and ride a clean TDF with good results. But I don't believe they will ever let him race again in that event.

The sad truth is that there are riders that are tested every week that pass with flying colors. I've escorted a couple to be tested, and rather than be pissed off about the trouble, were glad to go through it for themselves and the sport. Of course these riders didn't have the resources to attempt to blind testing, nor the resources to fight the testing results at such a high level. Up to the last few years, pro cycling among the elite had both.

I thought it was interesting that Landis drew little support by the peloton, but now it seems that many riders are actually standing up and supporting the testing to prove they are clean. I don't think they would take this stand if they considered the testing bogus since they could be next.

I never thought cycling could be a clean sport. Maybe I was wrong. I hope so.

The testing is a joke and only catches mistakes. Clearly the testing is flawed as so many athletes get busted without testing positive. So the question becomes why wouldn't riders support the testing they know they can beat in order to increase the profitability of the sport? Professional cycling is in crisis right now: fans are abondoning the sport and taking sponsors with them so budgets are down, cyclist futures are uncertain (ask Contador) as the GTOs and UCI continue in their childish fight, and the sport has become synonymous with doping so personal sponsorships and respectablity are off.

Maybe the pro riders are clean now, but don't you think that some hungry kid will use the next untestable wonder cream to win big if the chance of getting busted is less than perfect? Cycling is in a catch 22 right now- doping bust prove that cyclists dope and a lack of busts prove that the UCI isn't good enough at catching them. I don't know if pro cycling can ever reverse the doping image regardless of the doping reality.