Mountain Biking - MotoB Ti Fly...The Assimilation is Complete

So here's the new mountain bike. I decided to see how long it would take to go from the box to a fully rideable bike. OK, I don't have pedals(damn brother-in-law has mine), so it's not completely rideable, but you can have a pretty good idea of your 'bottle to throttle' time.

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I see red X's.

No Pics?

it took you 60 minutes?

I built my fly 9357 in about an hour. I could have done it faster, but disc brakes were totally new to me and I was cautious. Just got back from riding it tonight . . . love it.

it took you 60 minutes?

Look at the watch, you tard. 27 minutes and 45 seconds to get it rideable. That included opening the box.

I've still got stuff to do. I'm going to go for some different tires (haven't figured out which ones exactly, yet), change the cassette to an 11-32, take off the dork disc, bottle cages, etc. I wouldn't do a 100 mile race the way it is right now, but it's rideable.

I was impressed it went together that fast. I have no prior BD experience, but they did a nice job.

Dude, it took Pcad 27 minutes to figure out how to open the box.

OK all,

I've got my bike in better shape. Mods are:

1. Panaracer FireXCPro 2.1 tires front and rear
2. Tacx bottle cages
3. 11-32 SRAM Cassette / remove dork disc
4. Cheesy little handlebar bell to warn/say hello to people

Waiting on from Universal:
1. Ergo grips with integrated bar ends
2. Salsa quick-release seat post clamp

Probably should:
1. Bleed the rear brakes. I have the kit to do it, and the lever travel is pretty long.

So, can anyone come up with anything I'm missing?

remove dork disc



I don't get why people get rid of those..... Sure, they make the bike look slightly lamer, but you'll want it when you drop your chain into the wheel and snap spokes....

I am very understanding of dork disk ridicule and removal on road bikes. But am fine with a DD on a MTB. Too good of a chance RD gets tweaked and you could toss chain into spokes. Just IMHO.

The ultimate dork disc - - check out Derek Lahr's CF wunderbike. Rear cog is sandwiched by two 'dork discs' - - not dorky at all, really:

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I don't get why people get rid of those..... Sure, they make the bike look slightly lamer, but you'll want it when you drop your chain into the wheel and snap spokes....

dork

I am very understanding of dork disk ridicule and removal on road bikes. But am fine with a DD on a MTB. Too good of a chance RD gets tweaked and you could toss chain into spokes. Just IMHO.

dork

Well, it's just something I've never had a problem with. I think there's probably more of a chance of a stick getting caught in the wheel and taking out spokes than the chain. Regardless, it's gone.

Oh ya. I also stuck my old pedals on. When I bought them years ago they were pretty trick because of the Ti axle and mag body, but now they're heavier than a set of good steel pedals. Whatever, they work well and I don't see a need to change them. I have looked at Beebop pedals. They're not too much coin, look nice, look strong, and are light. Maybe if I have problems with what I have I'll have to give them a shot.

OK all,

I've got my bike in better shape. Mods are:

1. Panaracer FireXCPro 2.1 tires front and rear
2. Tacx bottle cages
3. 11-32 SRAM Cassette / remove dork disc
4. Cheesy little handlebar bell to warn/say hello to people

Waiting on from Universal:
1. Ergo grips with integrated bar ends
2. Salsa quick-release seat post clamp

Probably should:
1. Bleed the rear brakes. I have the kit to do it, and the lever travel is pretty long.

So, can anyone come up with anything I'm missing?

Not to interrupt your ratchet head reverie over assembling this bicycle, but be sure to let us know if you ever actually ride the bicycle. I presume some of you do ride the bikes, but I'm starting to wonder.

I'd be curious to hear another impression of the Fly Ti, I only have my own so far.

Not to interrupt your ratchet head reverie over assembling this bicycle, but be sure to let us know if you ever actually ride the bicycle. I presume some of you do ride the bikes, but I'm starting to wonder.

I'd be curious to hear another impression of the Fly Ti, I only have my own so far.

OF COURSE; IT MIGHT BE BAIS
BUT MY WIFE SAYS HERS RIDES SMOOTHER, CLIMBS QUICKER, CORNERS BETTER, ACCELERATES FASTER THAN HER FLY TEAM AL DID OR THAN THE FLY PRO SHE HAD BEFORE THAT

right now; however she has switched to slicks and is riding it on rollers
but as and off road XC bike she loves it and actually she was not in favor of my Ti project when I stated talking about it over a year ago; Now she is totally sold on Ti being fantastic

I presume some of you do ride the bikes, but I'm starting to wonder.


Why would anyone actually ride their bike? Wouldn't they just get dirty?

OF COURSE; IT MIGHT BE BAIS
BUT MY WIFE SAYS HERS RIDES SMOOTHER, CLIMBS QUICKER, CORNERS BETTER, ACCELERATES FASTER THAN HER FLY TEAM AL DID OR THAN THE FLY PRO SHE HAD BEFORE THAT

right now; however she has switched to slicks and is riding it on rollers
but as and off road XC bike she loves it and actually she was not in favor of my Ti project when I stated talking about it over a year ago; Now she is totally sold on Ti being fantastic

And note that his wife is fairly hardcore. Like adventure racing, Boston marathon, etc hardcore.

OF COURSE; IT MIGHT BE BAIS
BUT MY WIFE SAYS HERS RIDES SMOOTHER, CLIMBS QUICKER, CORNERS BETTER, ACCELERATES FASTER THAN HER FLY TEAM AL DID OR THAN THE FLY PRO SHE HAD BEFORE THAT

right now; however she has switched to slicks and is riding it on rollers
but as and off road XC bike she loves it and actually she was not in favor of my Ti project when I stated talking about it over a year ago; Now she is totally sold on Ti being fantastic

I read this feedback, interested in hearing some other observations.

My feel was that the rear triangle of the Fly Ti felt floaty or a bit 'mushy', but that's exactly what I wanted in an MTB. Didn't seem to impair responsiveness, climbing ability, acceleration, BB feels quite rigid, front end quite solid.

My feel was that the rear triangle of the Fly Ti felt floaty or a bit 'mushy', but that's exactly what I wanted in an MTB. Didn't seem to impair responsiveness, climbing ability, acceleration, BB feels quite rigid, front end quite solid.

Compared to your C'dale Six13 or compared to your old MTB?

Compared to your C'dale Six13 or compared to your old MTB?

Compared to the old MTB. The old steel MTB felt like a road racing frame. That's not good. The woods are bumpier than the roads. Around here.

The Cdale Six13 is the best overall race bike I've ridden, and my understanding is the System Six and Super Six are even better. That's amazing.

But getting back to the Fly Ti, one 18 mile ride (half woods, half road) left me thoroughly pscyhed.

But getting back to the Fly Ti, one 18 mile ride (half woods, half road) left me thoroughly pscyhed.

Blow me s**t if you want, but that's not exactly an 'epic' mountain biking test, is it? OK, here's my review. It's great around my neighborhood and cuts through the cul-de-sac down the street like hot butter.

Honestly, if I would have taken the bike out as delivered I might as well started to cut myself with razor blades. The semi-slick tire thing does not work on sandy California trails. I tried it once and crashed more than a dozen times in one afternoon.

I got tires on Tuesday, critted that night, kidded last night. You'll have to give me a _little_ more time.

but that's not exactly an 'epic' mountain biking test, is it?

For Pcad that is the Iditabike. Of course I do actually ride my bicycles. Whether or not those rides meet your bike weenie standards is your concern. I only want to know if you like the Fly Ti when you get it in the dirt.

45 miles today, nothing but hills. Up. Down. Up. Down. Up. Down. Uuuuuuppppppp. Dooowwwwnnnnn. And rain. Some rain too. Pcad 'stuck' the 3 mile climb (stayed seated for the entire climb). The MTB helps with that, you have to keep your ass glued climbing on that MTB.

For Pcad that is the Iditabike. Of course I do actually ride my bicycles. Whether or not those rides meet your bike weenie standards is your concern. I only want to know if you like the Fly Ti when you get it in the dirt.

Deal. I'll let you know all about it. And copy that about seated climbing, but I tend to stay in the saddle a lot anyhow.

Hadn't been on the MTB in a long time until the other day and the first thing I noticed was how much you have to stay in the saddle climbing. That's great training for a roadie, where the tendency is to stand as soon as you find it's hard to stay on top of the gear on a climb. On an MTB you can't do it. I really think that little ride the other day was helpful in helping me stay seated for that 3 mile road climb today. Very cool.

Hope you like your Fly Ti as much as I like mine Fat Boy. We're all too fat for this sport, I can relate, I like your user name.

I sort of fight the opposite . . . I never leave my saddle on my roadie. Well, I try to get out every now and again to sprint just to work on balance, etc. But I climb in my seat mostly. On the MTB I had a tendency to never get up . . . and there are times when you want to be up (going over stuff, technical spots where you need to change balance fast). But you are right, you get up to sprint and you will hate that front shock

Here in southeastern NY we have too many steep grades. The hill I do repeats features a 10% grade for the first half mile, the mile long hill I live has 3 15%+ sections. I can stay seated on grades of 8% or less, once it gets steeper than that I'm up. But in the woods you have to stay seated no matter how steep it gets. Great training.

So I’ve finally gotten my first Ti Fly ride under my belt. I’ve got some ideas about it, so here they are.

First, this is what I’ve done:

Panaracer FireXCPro 2.1 tires
11-32 SRAM cassette
Ergon GC2 grips
Wellgo Mag/Ti pedals
Tacx bottle cages
Salsa Quick-flip seat clamp

The setup was tires at 30 psi front / 25 psi rear and the SID at 110+/100- with rebound at minimum (fastest) setting. The tire pressures were inadvertently set low.

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The ride I took was about 20 miles, with probably 18 of it on fire roads that varied from well groomed (close to a subdivision) to uber-gnarly and a small amount of single track. There was just shy of 3500 feet of climbing.

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My frame of reference is pretty skewed. My 1998 Schwinn S-20 is a heavy, full suspension bike. The rear swing-arm doesn’t really work as a suspension all that well. It is an OK climber, but only has a small amount of travel and doesn’t do that great soaking up bumps. On top of that, it’s been probably 4 years since I was out on it.

First thing out of the parking lot was a climb. I only kind of remembered it was there. On the way up I was pedaling pretty hard and going up at a pretty hard clip. I ratcheted my right thumb until it wouldn’t go any more. It got a little easier, but it was still hard going. My bike computer showed it was a 13% grade…quite the warm-up. It was only at the top that I noticed I was in my middle chain-ring. OK, score one for climbing. This road isn’t rutted out too bad, so grip really wasn’t an issue.

The next climb was short and sweet. I had a good run going into it and cleared it without much drama. The next 2 kicked my butt (they are the middle and last climb in the picture). This time I was smart enough to get down in the gears, but I just ran out of steam. The first time because it was rocky and rutted and my technique sucked and I was on a wrong part of the road. The second one was just strength. I had good grip, I just couldn’t seal the deal. Both times I hopped off the bike at about the 26% grade point. Ya know what? That’s pretty freakin’ steep. The second one maxed at about 28%. I ended up having to abandon a couple other climbs, but these were 35-36% walls. I don’t feel too bad for walking them. I did clear a 21%’er and everything in the high teens. All in all, I have to say that this bike has the goods when it comes to climbing. It’s mostly about the engine, but the bike has to be able to put the torque to the ground without spinning out when going up those steep grades, and I didn’t have that problem even once.

The next thing to comment on is the ride. PCad described it as ‘mushy’. I’m not sure what that means, and I don’t think that’s a word I would use. It did feel like to me that there was _something_ absorbing the bumps, though. On the more rutted and washboarded descents I was off the saddle, but didn’t really feel like I was getting pounded by the seat. Some of the washboard surfaces were enough that they would noticeably slow the bike even when on a fairly steep decline. They weren’t big jumps and hits, but it was pretty freakin’ bumpy. At first, my form was off and I was holding on too tight and leaning too far forward. This made a lot of feedback through the bars and in general the bike was unstable. As I got more comfortable I would get weight off the front and let it float. That’s when it started to come more alive for me. Keep in mind I haven’t been mountain biking in quite a while.

I don’t know if I felt the SID being noodly or not. I don’t have much to compare with. It seemed to take the bumps a little better than my old fork, but not _hugely_ better. The bumps were definitely still there. I don’t know if that’s a criticism of the SID or a kudos to the old Englund Air Cartidges. I haven’t had any tuning time on the SID, so I’m sure that by tuning the pressures I can make it happier. One thing that I noticed that impressed me was that when descending and going over washboard then hitting a rut I didn’t get the big ‘pitch forward’. It did a good job of soaking up some pretty ugly bump combinations.

The rear of the bike feels more planted than my old bike in terms of traction and ride over bumps. The old bike would kick off the top of bumps really bad. It was a cheap non-adjustable damper that wasn’t valved correctly. If I were just dropped on this bike, I would guess that it had a suspension on the flats or descents. It’s only when out of the saddle climbing (on the really steep stuff) that you know it’s a hard-tail (and want it that way). I’m guessing that the tires I put on it had some to do with this feeling, but they couldn’t be everything.

The one thing on the bike that is just mind-blowing is the brakes. Holey-Shmoley! So much power even when using a single finger and really great modulation. These are so much better than V-brakes I can’t believe it. Some of the descents were on pretty nasty wash-outs, rocks, and they were also sandy. I never felt like the brakes were even working up a sweat. They just worked.

XTR drivetrain is nice, but honestly, not my cup of tea. In particular, the downshifts are too vague. Some people call them ‘butter’, but I call it, “Did I get 1 gear or 3?”. I like SRAM X.0 components…twisters more than triggers. The detents are very pronounced and the shifting is very fast. The XTR is probably just as fast and it’s super nice, but I just like the other feel better. I notice the same difference with my SRAM Force on my road bike. Maybe that’s a change to make, but no time soon. It is worth noting that the setup of all the shifters and deraillers was spot on.

I think that Mike at BD has made several little unnecessary compromises with this bike that need to be re-thought. The first is tires. We all understand he wants to get his flagship bike under 20 pounds. The tires that come stock are just not useable on standard trails. The Panaracers I bought are 550g tires (relatively light) and much more useable. The second is the cassette. I’m sure he has a boat-load of Ultegra cassettes and is again shooting for a weight target. It’s just not a very good choice for the vast majority of users. I’ve probably put 2-3 pounds on my bike since I pulled it out of the box. The things I’ve done have made it a better bike, though, and I think Mike needs to keep that in perspective if he’s going to keep people happy with this bike.

I can say that I’m pretty pleased with what I’ve gotten. I’ve been a while without a mountain bike and having one of this caliber is more than enough encouragement to go out and get a little dirty. So I guess that makes me a shill. I guess I'll join the crowd.




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>>I can say that I’m pretty pleased with what I’ve gotten. I’ve been a while without a mountain bike and having one of this caliber is more than enough encouragement to go out and get a little dirty. So I guess that makes me a shill. I guess I'll join the crowd.<<

There's a major bottom line for me. No $1900 Bikes Direct Fly Ti, no new MTB. The price was attractive enough to make it a no brainer. I was on the web yesterday pricing Litespeed Ti hard tails with similar components, and the prices were in the low to high $5K range, not $2K. So if the Fly Ti is even in the same ballpark with those bikes it's a screaming bargain. I haven't ridden those, but the Motobecane is so far beyond what I had before I'm very happy.

>>I can say that I’m pretty pleased with what I’ve gotten. I’ve been a while without a mountain bike and having one of this caliber is more than enough encouragement to go out and get a little dirty. So I guess that makes me a shill. I guess I'll join the crowd.<<

There's a major bottom line for me. No $1900 Bikes Direct Fly Ti, no new MTB. The price was attractive enough to make it a no brainer. I was on the web yesterday pricing Litespeed Ti hard tails with similar components, and the prices were in the low to high $5K range, not $2K. So if the Fly Ti is even in the same ballpark with those bikes it's a screaming bargain. I haven't ridden those, but the Motobecane is so far beyond what I had before I'm very happy.


hmm...got a double boinger Specialized FSR 5" bike for less. I guess knowing the guys at the LBS helps. It was only $400 off sticker.

Wanna hear something funny? On my ride after going for an hour or so, I looked down. I was at 7 1/2 miles. That's when I remembered your Iditabike comment. OK, 12 miles doesn't sound like much, but miles come a lot slower on a mountain bike than they do on a road bike.

The only reason I went as far as I did was because I got lost. I ended up having to take city streets back to my truck. It did give me a chance to feel the bike at speed. On a big downhill I went about 35mph. The bike was very stable the entire time. Those slack angles really slow the steering down and it felt very stable.

hmm...got a double boinger Specialized FSR 5" bike for less. I guess knowing the guys at the LBS helps. It was only $400 off sticker.

The titanium one with XTR components that's super light?

The titanium one with XTR components that's super light?


No, but I'm sure I can arrange for you to see the back of it.

I see your "super light" gained a couple of lbs. I guess it weighs close to what my OX platinum HT now weighs.

I see your "super light" gained a couple of lbs. I guess it weighs close to what my OX platinum HT now weighs.

Dude, you're so freakin' lame I don't even know where to begin. Yes, my bike does weigh about the same as any good steel, carbon or aluminum hardtail. Do you think this is news? Top level frames all weigh within a few ounces of each other regardless of the material.

So your whole point of posting is to show how you are somehow superior because you bought a completely different style of bike that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread for less money? Good for you, Jack. You must be very, very proud. Don't worry about showing me the tail of your bike, you've already shown your a*s with what you wrote.

They look like an awesome deal, unless I'm missing something. Glad you're enjoying it.

Dude, you're so freakin' lame I don't even know where to begin. Yes, my bike does weigh about the same as any good steel, carbon or aluminum hardtail. Do you think this is news? Top level frames all weigh within a few ounces of each other regardless of the material.

So your whole point of posting is to show how you are somehow superior because you bought a completely different style of bike that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread for less money? Good for you, Jack. You must be very, very proud. Don't worry about showing me the tail of your bike, you've already shown your a*s with what you wrote.

touchy touchy. :twitchy:

no, I guess I supported my LBS, got a top level double boinger and spent less was the point.

I did mod the double boinger but I already had the parts. Grips, saddle, different crank.

The Ti HT frame does seem nice though. Much more modern look than his other HT offerings and with cable routing NOT on top of the TT.

It seems you and I share much of the same thoughts on the way the Ti bike was built but you go off and become an a**hat with your response.

Honestly, the days are over for me to spend that amount of coin on a HT no matter what the frame material.

No, but I'm sure I can arrange for you to see the back of it.

I see your "super light" gained a couple of lbs. I guess it weighs close to what my OX platinum HT now weighs.

oooh, looks like you've been challenged to an internet race. :roflmao2:

oooh, looks like you've been challenged to an internet race. :roflmao2:

Yep. I'm one scared a*shat.

oooh, looks like you've been challenged to an internet race. :roflmao2:

LOL

Exactly what I was thinking.

asshat

oooh, looks like you've been challenged to an internet race. :roflmao2:


not even close

:wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf::trainwreck::trainwreck:

No, but I'm sure I can arrange for you to see the back of it.

I see your "super light" gained a couple of lbs. I guess it weighs close to what my OX platinum HT now weighs.

I like your style Rutnick.

Another 20 miles on the Fly ti tonight, including 10 miles in the woods, with the slog up the ridge to the top of Goosepond Mtn. MUCH more technical, WAY over my head (my employee Larry who was showing me these trails kept waiting for me). The bike was great, but I must admit if you're going to ride in rock gardens or for 2+ hours on very technical terrain, FS is the ticket. I prefer flat less challenging stuff that suits my Road Nazi Who Can't MTB style. RACE an MTB? I'd kill myself on lap 2. Maybe lap 1. Ultimately for the less challenging stuff I enjoy riding on, the hardtail is perfect. If I rode on terrain like we did today constantly, I'd get a FS. So I can see where you're all coming from, both sides.

The rear suspension effect of the rear triangle was very evident, the SID is fine, the disc brakes are truly a revelation (we did some very technical steep descents, my sphincter was considerably less puckered thanks to the Avid Ultimate brakes. Amazing power with far less hand effort. Also love the Fly Ti feel on the road. What a great bicycle.

I'll tell you boys, Road Racing is for Wussy compared to MTB Madness. Jeeesh. It would be easier if I got out into the woods regularly of course, but still. You guys are all insane.

You guys are all insane.

Its all that weed and mushrooms that we use..:twitchy:

I like your style Rutnick.

Another 20 miles on the Fly ti tonight, including 10 miles in the woods, with the slog up the ridge to the top of Goosepond Mtn. MUCH more technical, WAY over my head (my employee Larry who was showing me these trails kept waiting for me). The bike was great, but I must admit if you're going to ride in rock gardens or for 2+ hours on very technical terrain, FS is the ticket. I prefer flat less challenging stuff that suits my Road Nazi Who Can't MTB style. RACE an MTB? I'd kill myself on lap 2. Maybe lap 1. Ultimately for the less challenging stuff I enjoy riding on, the hardtail is perfect. If I rode on terrain like we did today constantly, I'd get a FS. So I can see where you're all coming from, both sides.

The rear suspension effect of the rear triangle was very evident, the SID is fine, the disc brakes are truly a revelation (we did some very technical steep descents, my sphincter was considerably less puckered thanks to the Avid Ultimate brakes. Amazing power with far less hand effort. Also love the Fly Ti feel on the road. What a great bicycle.

I'll tell you boys, Road Racing is for Wussy compared to MTB Madness. Jeeesh. It would be easier if I got out into the woods regularly of course, but still. You guys are all insane.

It sounds like this purchase has awakened a closet dirt rider.

Those avid ultimates are NICE brakes. I currently have Avid Juicy 5s with 8" rotor on the front and 7" on the back on the new rig.

Honestly, I have a bad back so I know where you are coming from when you talk about yours. I just marvel that you can do the HT thing with your back.

The Ti rig is nice. I just can't make a HT my primary and I've done some really technical stuff with mine the last few months. I had to back away and get the FS.

I wish I could get some saddle time in the dirt right now. The weather is not playing well right now.

It sounds like this purchase has awakened a closet dirt rider.



Don't get carried away.

I got to A-B the Fly Ti with my pal's Dean Ti (about ten years old, exact same kind of bike from 9 years back). The Dean felt stiffer, the Fly Ti more lively, a bit 'boingier' (possibly mushier). Liked the Fly Ti more. His bike has a c. 1999 Manitou shock, the newer Rock Shox SID felt considerably more responsive, supple.

I don't think I've ever seen a Ti bike, MTB or road, with shaped tubes like the Motobecane. Actually looked like a considerably more expensive bike next to the older Dean. A newer Dean equipped like the Fly Ti would be double the price. The ability of BD to deliver value like that is really astonishing.

with the slog up the ridge to the top of Goosepond Mtn. MUCH more technical, WAY over my head (my employee Larry who was showing me these trails kept waiting for me). The bike was great, but I must admit if you're going to ride in rock gardens or for 2+ hours on very technical terrain, FS is the ticket.

Then get a Honda CRF450R if you want to clear everything. You know what they say about 4 wheel drive, It doesn't stop you from getting stuck, it just let's you make it further off the road. A big travel FS rig is the same deal. You just start going over bigger stuff faster so when you finally crash you end up in a body cast.

You ever notice how the _really_ good XC guys are pretty much always on a HT? I'm pretty sure there's a lesson there. I'd say the longer the ride, the less I'd want to carry around a rear suspension. If you're doing a downhill off of a chair lift, then it'd be great, but lugging 10 extra pounds of bike around takes it's toll after a while.

Whatever, to each his own.

You ever notice how the _really_ good XC guys are pretty much always on a HT?

No. The best local XC guys I know around here (including one guy who was a rather successful Expert MTB Racer for many years) won't ride hard tails anymore. But for my rather limited MTB needs the Fly Ti is ideal. If I were a harder core MTB weenie I'd add a FS to the Fly Ti, but I'd keep the hard tail too.

Then get a Honda CRF450R if you want to clear everything. You know what they say about 4 wheel drive, It doesn't stop you from getting stuck, it just let's you make it further off the road. A big travel FS rig is the same deal. You just start going over bigger stuff faster so when you finally crash you end up in a body cast.

You ever notice how the _really_ good XC guys are pretty much always on a HT? I'm pretty sure there's a lesson there. I'd say the longer the ride, the less I'd want to carry around a rear suspension. If you're doing a downhill off of a chair lift, then it'd be great, but lugging 10 extra pounds of bike around takes it's toll after a while.

Whatever, to each his own.


My race 4" travel bike was 26lbs. My 5" travel bike is now 27.5lbs. My race HT is 24-24.5lbs depending on the race. hardly 10 extra pounds.

My friend's 6" travel bike is around 30lbs.

Now a DH bike....yeah...they get heavy.

Don't get carried away.

I got to A-B the Fly Ti with my pal's Dean Ti (about ten years old, exact same kind of bike from 9 years back). The Dean felt stiffer, the Fly Ti more lively, a bit 'boingier' (possibly mushier). Liked the Fly Ti more. His bike has a c. 1999 Manitou shock, the newer Rock Shox SID felt considerably more responsive, supple.

I don't think I've ever seen a Ti bike, MTB or road, with shaped tubes like the Motobecane. Actually looked like a considerably more expensive bike next to the older Dean. A newer Dean equipped like the Fly Ti would be double the price. The ability of BD to deliver value like that is really astonishing.

It does have an interesting look about it.

not to change the topic but look at this frame:

http://www.lynskeyperformance.com/a/pages/products/mountain/house-blend-m220.php

check the welds on that one! I can't tell but does one of the pics show the top and down tube slightly ovalized?