I've been car-free for a few years now, and I come here pretty regularly for information and, mostly, inspiration. I've posted regularly, too. It's sometimes tough being an intentionally car-free person in a car-obsessed culture, and it's been nice to have at least the on-line support of like-minded individuals. Lately, though, I've noticed that the majority of threads on this forum have little to do with car-free life-styles. Rather, it's people ranting about oil and/or car culture, the very thing many of us are trying to avoid. It reminds me of an AA meeting where everyone goes on all day about the evils of vodka. I've also noticed that about a dozen or so people comprise the the vast majority of posts here. Occasionally, new people wander in, but they, with few exceptions, run for the hills when they see what's going on. It's become a sick little club of whiners, as a recent poster mentioned. Not always, of course -there have been many, many very encouraging threads- but enough to be a bit disconcerting to anyone who wanders to this forum unawares. And I've been as guilty of many of the nasty-type posts , which I now regret. I suggest the following to revive the integrity of this forum:
1. Don't rag on car drivers so much; or rather, don't rag on them simply because they're driving.
2. Ban Peak Oil as a topic of conversation.
3. Agree to actually mention bicycles in posts once in a while.
4. Agree to discuss motor vehicles a lot less.
5. When newbies show up, go to some effort to make them to make them feel welcome, even if you don't agree with them.
6. In general, spend more time talking about practicalities and less about ideology. (Yes, there's a utility forum, but all they ever talk about is trailers; it's the context that makes things interesting. Speak about the example of Copenhagen, and then start extolling the advantages of Extracycle.)
If you disagree with me, that's okay. But please do it reasonably.
YULitle
05-01-08, 11:10 PM
Here here. I've been here for about a day or two and I'm already a little dis-heartened. Though, I did get some great help. So perhaps it's not all bad? :D
kmcrawford111
05-01-08, 11:38 PM
I agree, and I'm guilty too, even after realizing that I've spent too much of my personal time reiterating the same ideas. This goes on in the commuting forum as well. I imagine that this is perhaps the one place where many people with like-mindedness come to and are able to vent, so that's why there's been so much of it. But that's no excuse for veering off topic so much. I think it's important especially now to keep a positive attitude, especially with all the new members coming in.
For energy-related discussion, there's a lot of deep, thorough, honest, and intelligent analysis and discussion going on at theoildrum.com (http://theoildrum.com), which would be a fine place to shift some of this discussion to.
Let's get back to what we came here in the first place - bikes!
Platy
05-01-08, 11:43 PM
...Yes, there's a utility forum, but all they ever talk about is trailers; it's the context that makes things interesting. ...
If you disallow discussions about the context of living car free, what you wind up with is a discussion of trailers. We have to consider the Big Picture. And the main thing about the Big Picture is...well, it's really really big.
I'd love to see more welcoming and less criticism, but all it takes is a handful of highly opinionated, emotionally charged, vocal posters to train wreck a thread. And it's not as if those posters are ill intentioned, it's just that if someone happens to be grumpy, a point & counterpoint discussion can turn so easily into tit for tat. Actually, it seems to me that the occasional train wrecks that occur here now are much less of a problem than they were a year or so ago.
Rowan
05-02-08, 01:41 AM
I just get on with living the car-ownership-free lifestyle. I drop in here occasionally to see what useful and useless material there might be. I can't say there is any greater conflict than there was a year or two or three ago... in fact, probably there is less.
It seems to me many of the subject lines to do with oil, fuel pricing, motorist behaviour and so on are attempts to validate the lifestyle that some people have discovered.
Unfortunately, like any religion, there are the fundamentalists who want to take such discussions much further than they need to.
TiberiusBTkirk
05-02-08, 01:44 AM
maybe it is a sign of things to come,
what? I don't know really.
I do know I'm seeing more homeless on the streets.
I think that's really the BIG picture. to me, anyway.
Ziemas
05-02-08, 01:53 AM
maybe it is a sign of things to come,
what? I don't know really.
I do know I'm seeing more homeless on the streets.
I think that's really the BIG picture. to me, anyway.
What does that have to do with choosing a bicycle as transport?
TiberiusBTkirk
05-02-08, 01:56 AM
not just transport, but living car free because one has to.
but what do I know, I don't drive nor have a driver's license.
so people can't choose.
becnal
05-02-08, 02:31 AM
You have to take the good with the bad. Don't click on the topics you don't find interesting. Click on those you do.
When I get discouraged by the topics, I go ride my bike. :)
wahoonc
05-02-08, 03:01 AM
You have to take the good with the bad. Don't click on the topics you don't find interesting. Click on those you do.
When I get discouraged by the topics, I go ride my bike. :)
Exactly...there are plenty of topics that I may read the orginal post and a couple of replies, if the topic doesn't interest me I don't bother clicking it again. I look on like the movies...you don't go see every movie produced good and bad (at least I don't:p) There have been plenty of excellent threads on here. Yes some of the are a bit OT and push the politics side of things, but for the most part the discussions remain pretty civil, unlike P&R. Unfortunately oil drives our lifestyles...even the car free/car light ones.
Aaron:)
Chris L
05-02-08, 03:03 AM
Lately, though, I've noticed that the majority of threads on this forum have little to do with car-free life-styles. Rather, it's people ranting about oil and/or car culture, the very thing many of us are trying to avoid. It reminds me of an AA meeting where everyone goes on all day about the evils of vodka. I've also noticed that about a dozen or so people comprise the the vast majority of posts here. Occasionally, new people wander in, but they, with few exceptions, run for the hills when they see what's going on. It's become a sick little club of whiners, as a recent poster mentioned.
In the spirit of providing some practical information, here are a couple of options for you:
1. If you think a particular thread has crossed the line and strayed into political or "advocacy" territory, use the report button and alert the mods, who will then decide to either move the post or leave it there, depending on the circumstances.
2. If a particular thread doesn't interest you, don't read it. You're under no obligation to participate in every thread on a particular sub-forum.
To be honest though, I don't really think this place has changed all that much since this subforum was created around 3-4 years ago. Some content was moved to the utility forum when it was created, but as far as I can recall, the whole point of creating this particular forum in the first place was to move a lot of the car-free vs non-car-free flame wars out of A & S (this was originally a sub-forum of A & S). Of course, they just found something else to bicker about to amuse themselves.
The point is, this "club of whiners" is really no different from any other place on the Internet. Virtually every Internet forum in existence is there for entertainment first and everything else a distant second. I remember going through a "this board isn't as good as it used to be phase". That lasted about as long as it took me to have a look at the archives and realise it was basically the same topics being rehashed by half a dozen posters all along, and the only reason I was losing interest is because I'd seen it all before. Then I ventured to other fora and found exactly the same thing happening.
Also, I don't think the new posters are necessarily driven off by the factors you mention. Most people probably just turn up here out of curiosity, realise that it's the same as the forum they "left", or that they have other ways to satisfy their entertainment needs, and move on. Given the amount of time the "core" posters spend online here, the newbie who turns up and only posts once a day, or just lurks probably wouldn't be noticed anyway. The people with the time to spend on line will always comprise the majority of the posts, and no changes in topic are going to change that.
strangeseraph
05-02-08, 05:56 AM
bragi I fully agree with you. I barely have any interest in being a part of this forum, even though I AM car-free because none of the forum threads interest.
But Copenhagen, that is an awesome topic of conversation! Allow me to go start it! :D
Mauriceloridans
05-02-08, 09:17 AM
+1 on trying to stay more positive. But you can't define your subforum as "car free" without frequent reference to the other side of the coin. To me car free is a beautiful ideal. It does not necessarily mean bicycling (e.g. Venice) but we get here through Bike Forums.
I live in an area that would never come around to accepting bike/ped lifestyle versus car lifestyle UNLESS peak oil and the "Long Emergency" kicks some butt. It is starting to do just that. I want to celebrate that here.
Meaux
Hobartlemagne
05-02-08, 09:40 AM
I suggest the following to revive the integrity of this forum:
1. Don't rag on car drivers so much; or rather, don't rag on them simply because they're driving.
2. Ban Peak Oil as a topic of conversation.
3. Agree to actually mention bicycles in posts once in a while.
4. Agree to discuss motor vehicles a lot less.
5. When newbies show up, go to some effort to make them to make them feel welcome, even if you don't agree with them.
6. In general, spend more time talking about practicalities and less about ideology. (Yes, there's a utility forum, but all they ever talk about is trailers; it's the context that makes things interesting. Speak about the example of Copenhagen, and then start extolling the advantages of Extracycle.)
If you disagree with me, that's okay. But please do it reasonably.
Great list. I have some additions:
7. No "gas prices should be raised" threads
8. No "Lets tax people till they act like we do" threads
More practically: As a subforum if we report threads to mods and suggest they be moved to P&R, then
we can make this subforum more car free and less ranting against this or that.
Newspaperguy
05-02-08, 09:47 AM
I agree with what you're saying, bragi. While I'm not car-free, I'm here because I'm interested in maintaining and enhancing a car-light lifestyle for myself. I'm interested in cycling as personal transportation, not just recreation and I'm interested in reasonable and sensible alternatives to driving when practical.
2. Ban Peak Oil as a topic of conversation.
Should we perhaps have a Peak Oil subforum here, similar to the Vehicular Cycling subforum in Advocacy and Safety?
6. In general, spend more time talking about practicalities and less about ideology. (Yes, there's a utility forum, but all they ever talk about is trailers; it's the context that makes things interesting. Speak about the example of Copenhagen, and then start extolling the advantages of Extracycle.)
This is exactly what I'd like to see. We have all sorts of practical real-world situations where we want to go car-free. The post about hauling bikes on a motorcycle is one example of this. The grocery post is another.
Nightshade
05-02-08, 09:53 AM
" In general, spend more time talking about practicalities and less about ideology."
Like it or not the "ideology" is a very important step to getting more people on
bike , or walking, on the way to a car-lite America. Without the "ideology"
discussion people will not buy into the very real need that is driving the
movment towards car-lite America. After the public is convinced the
rest is fairly easy.
Tom Stormcrowe
05-02-08, 09:55 AM
Actually, P&R is pretty civil now. :D I know, it seems off topic, but it isn't.
In P&R, we've instituted a policy of discuss the ideas and not the poster. We have a dedicated thread for when you just absolutely HAVE to anklebite someone and the guidelines are still in force there as well, so there are limits on how hard you anklebite. I won't say it doesn't occasionally get heated, because it does, but the guys and gals (Yes, we even have women in there now! :D) have learned limits.
There have been some truly interesting philosophical, metaphysical and political discussions going, that run out 40 and 50 pages and I haven't had to do much at all in hard moderation recently. I'm actually pretty happy with where they are at now.
Exactly...there are plenty of topics that I may read the orginal post and a couple of replies, if the topic doesn't interest me I don't bother clicking it again. I look on like the movies...you don't go see every movie produced good and bad (at least I don't:p) There have been plenty of excellent threads on here. Yes some of the are a bit OT and push the politics side of things, but for the most part the discussions remain pretty civil, unlike P&R. Unfortunately oil drives our lifestyles...even the car free/car light ones.
Aaron:)
Platy
05-02-08, 10:08 AM
2. Ban Peak Oil as a topic of conversation.
This forum has never seen an actual in-depth discussion of peak oil, which would get into the technical details of horizontal drilling, fractional flow in permeable reservoirs, enhanced oil recovery, creaming curves, energy balances in refineries, energy returned on energy invested, analysis of satellite photos of foreign oil fields, contango/backwardation in commodity futures, and so forth. As for occasional casual references to peak oil as a possible driver of current events, you'll get that by watching the financial news channels or reading the Wall Street Journal.
ericy
05-02-08, 12:50 PM
This forum has never seen an actual in-depth discussion of peak oil, which would get into the technical details of horizontal drilling, fractional flow in permeable reservoirs, enhanced oil recovery, creaming curves, energy balances in refineries, energy returned on energy invested, analysis of satellite photos of foreign oil fields, contango/backwardation in commodity futures, and so forth. As for occasional casual references to peak oil as a possible driver of current events, you'll get that by watching the financial news channels or reading the Wall Street Journal.
That's true, but that's what http://www.theoildrum.com is for.
I guess my feeling in all of this is that when you start to talk about living car free, it is only natural to start to consider the reasons why our society is set up in such a way that living car free is a big deal. If it wasn't a big deal, then lots more people would be doing it, and it would be an ordinary lifestyle choice like the question of whether to get a cat or a dog.
And then of course the question of the degree to which the status quo will be possible in the future. I suppose that's what the dig about peak oil was all about, and I imagine that this sort of discussion makes some people uncomfortable. To me it is highly relevant - if you don't want to read about it, skip those threads.
Newspaperguy
05-02-08, 01:43 PM
Like it or not the "ideology" is a very important step to getting more people on
bike , or walking, on the way to a car-lite America. Without the "ideology"
discussion people will not buy into the very real need that is driving the
movment towards car-lite America. After the public is convinced the
rest is fairly easy.
A friend of mine is going car-light this year. He's trying as much as possible to have car-free days. But he also tells me it's not easy to do. People like him and others who are trying to make the transition will need our help and advice. Many of us have already learned how to cut back or eliminate our dependence on the automobile. We can help show others how to do likewise.
gwd
05-02-08, 05:01 PM
" In general, spend more time talking about practicalities and less about ideology."
Like it or not the "ideology" is a very important step to getting more people on
bike , or walking, on the way to a car-lite America. Without the "ideology"
discussion people will not buy into the very real need that is driving the
movment towards car-lite America. After the public is convinced the
rest is fairly easy.
I don't mind the ethics and ideology posts even though I think I became car free from self interest rather than altruism. When I first came here some of the ethics posters made me think differently about my decisions. I'm not convinced by the ideological and peak oiler points of view but their posts give a framework for looking at whats happening in the world. I have to admit I don't read all the threads about cars but I can understand that if someone is going to advocate car free that person might have to say whats wrong with cars in addition to whats so great about car free. A friend is going through car repair hell right now and just complained that her office has changed locations from bikeable to non-bikeable. She feels abused by the auto repair shop and doesn't have the bike to work luxury to spend time researching the problem. These stories make us car free people feel lucky and the stories can't be told without mentioning cars.
gerv
05-02-08, 06:00 PM
If you disallow discussions about the context of living car free, what you wind up with is a discussion of trailers. We have to consider the Big Picture. And the main thing about the Big Picture is...well, it's really really big.
I'd love to see more welcoming and less criticism, but all it takes is a handful of highly opinionated, emotionally charged, vocal posters to train wreck a thread. And it's not as if those posters are ill intentioned, it's just that if someone happens to be grumpy, a point & counterpoint discussion can turn so easily into tit for tat. Actually, it seems to me that the occasional train wrecks that occur here now are much less of a problem than they were a year or so ago.
I would agree that the conversation is much tamer than it was a few years ago. Part of the reason is that the discussion of Peak Oil and gas prices and poor urban and global warming has become accepted within the mainstream media.
Actually, I first learned about Peak Oil from this forum. Now I hear it on CNN all the time.
So... in a sense... what seems like mayhem and vehemence and rather esoteric, non-bicycle discussion may have some importance to our notion of the bicycle as transportation. I don't think you need to include a reference to bicycles in every topic. Sometimes the reference is implied.
Rowan
05-02-08, 06:42 PM
A lot of the bubbling of "philosophical" stuff to the surface while the practical stuff sinks has to do with the name of the forum itself. There was discussion quite a while ago about this, and I said this forum should be called the Utility Cycling Forum. The self-appointed guru who "ran" the forum at that time disagreed. Then the Utility Cycling forum spun off, and the fragmentation has served neither very well.
The simple fact of the matter is that NO-ONE in the countries that BFs serves can possibly live car-free (drill down deeper than your own household to understand why). The naming is superficial in philosophical terms, and panders to the cyclist need to have some sort of social validation for the fact they ride a bicycle. Inevitably, the title Living Car Free gives no clue as to cycling as being the replacement for car-ownership, and rather invites the fundamentalists who hate cars to expound their theories.
I am sure that many people think they are taking up cycling to save the world. Most aren't. They are taking up cycling because it is convenient to them in terms of money, location, health and lifestyle simplicity. It's why we have people who want to be a part of this forum but say they are "car lite" or even admit to not owning a car but have two pick-ups!!!!
If you are living truly car-ownership-free, the discussion of peak oil and oil prices and motor vehicle costs is almost irrelevant, except for the impact it might have on the costs of consumer items and food. I wouldn't know a thing now about the price of fuel except for the constant ramming down our throats by the media of the automobile lobbies' rantings on it.
I maintain that this forum and the Utility Cycling Forum and maybe even Commuting should be reunited and go under the title of Utility Cycling. But of course, that would be too radical a move...
BarracksSi
05-02-08, 11:13 PM
Inevitably, the title Living Car Free gives no clue as to cycling as being the replacement for car-ownership, and rather invites the fundamentalists who hate cars to expound their theories.
Ah -- so that explains why so many threads focus on cars.
I'd become either really smug (a sense of being superior to cars) or really distressed (sad that society is so car-centric) if this was the only forum I read on BF. ;)
Chris L
05-02-08, 11:15 PM
I maintain that this forum and the Utility Cycling Forum and maybe even Commuting should be reunited and go under the title of Utility Cycling. But of course, that would be too radical a move...
The basic problem is the inevitability that the Peak-oil/anti-car posts ultimately have to go somewhere (assuming that nobody wants to see them deleted outright and replaced by even more repetitive censorship posts). It seems to be the nature of any cycling forum that attracts even a moderate volume of traffic. I remember when I was on the old bike-qld list and the peak-oil posts took over. The admin of that list actually created a separate list devoted to those topics (I think it was called "evironmental transport" or something similar) but it didn't stop them. If you think back to the inception of LCF, it came about as a way of removing those posts from A & S. I don't visit A & S often enough to see if it's made a difference in that regard, but I suspect that it hasn't.
I think a combined forum would be taken over by the peak-oil posts just as quickly. As I pointed out before, the main need served by a forum such as this one is entertainment. The fact is, the "peak-oil", "Cars are bad" and "I'm better than you" arguments keep people with lots of disposable time to spend online entertained, that's why they come about in the first place. I read a study somewhere suggesting that while people claim to be working longer and longer hours every year, much of that time in the office is actually spent surfing the net rather than working. The point of all this is that these posts aren't simply going to stop, regardless of the pleadings of those who don't wish to read them.
At the end of the day, we can create a million different sub-forums, or we can merge everything into one BIG forum, but neither will change the content or the topics of the posts if the users choose to continue posting the same material. Basically, if you want to see different content either here or over in Utility Cycling, you need to take the initiative and start the thread yourself. In the end, there are three realistic options. We can either create a separate sub-forum for Peak Oil discussions (which may or may not keep them away from LCF), we can have the users report posts they think are too political and have them moved to P & R, or people can simply choose not to read the posts that bother them, and instead start posting the content that they want to see here. The choice is up to the users.
BarracksSi
05-02-08, 11:23 PM
If you think back to the inception of LCF, it came about as a way of removing those posts from A & S. I don't visit A & S often enough to see if it's made a difference in that regard, but I suspect that it hasn't.
I don't think that there is any discussion of peak oil in A&S, or at least I don't notice it. It's mostly about mirrors (how smart/stupid they are), bike lanes (how smart/stupid they are), stop signs (how smart/stupid they are), "other" cyclists (how smart/stupid they are)...
(see a trend? ;) )
Chris L
05-02-08, 11:33 PM
I don't think that there is any discussion of peak oil in A&S, or at least I don't notice it. It's mostly about mirrors (how smart/stupid they are), bike lanes (how smart/stupid they are), stop signs (how smart/stupid they are), "other" cyclists (how smart/stupid they are)...
(see a trend? ;) )
Perhaps we could start a poll on "subforums" (how smart/stupid they are).
BarracksSi
05-02-08, 11:36 PM
Perhaps we could start a poll on "subforums" (how smart/stupid they are).
I was thinking of a "Smart/Stupid" subforum. ;)
Rowan
05-02-08, 11:43 PM
It pays sometimes to revisit the original premise for the forum (not that it's going to make much difference, I suppose):
Here is the new forum for car free living. Feel free to discuss your car free concerns here... but keep in mind, this is NOT the forum for discussion about multi-use paths, arguing about your problems with cars, SUV's etc. or to flame people who drive. It's the spot for people to discuss getting around without cars, utility trailers, living without the car, etc. Any topics that deviate beyond the spirit of the forum will be moved out into their proper forums.
Bikepacker67
05-03-08, 07:12 AM
Why do some people whine soo much?
If you don't want to read a thread on a subject that doesn't interest you, DON'T.
Why would you think that a certain sub-forum should revolve around your particular likes and dislikes?
When I go to P&S, I'm not interested in certain posters' Muslim rants, but that doesn't mean I think that P&S sucks - just because every thread doesn't cater to me.
donnamb
05-03-08, 08:46 AM
P&S? Politics & Shortbread?
:p
Bikepacker67
05-03-08, 08:48 AM
P&S? Politics & Shortbread?
:p
Whoops! :D
(Politics & Spirituality?) :p
wahoonc
05-03-08, 08:57 AM
P&S? Politics & Shortbread?
:p
Actually I took the S to mean the latter portion of the word commonly abbreviated BS;)
Aaron:)
donnamb
05-03-08, 08:59 AM
Oh. Well, East Hill was beguiling some of the guys in there with her macadamia nut shortbread. She's quite the Siren, you know. :D
The Historian
05-03-08, 09:03 AM
Oh. Well, East Hill was beguiling some of the guys in there with her macadamia nut shortbread. She's quite the Siren, you know. :D
That East Hill will do ANYTHING to get guys to post photos of themselves in kilts.
gerv
05-03-08, 11:51 AM
It pays sometimes to revisit the original premise for the forum (not that it's going to make much difference, I suppose):
Here is the new forum for car free living. Feel free to discuss your car free concerns here... but keep in mind, this is NOT the forum for discussion about multi-use paths, arguing about your problems with cars, SUV's etc. or to flame people who drive. It's the spot for people to discuss getting around without cars, utility trailers, living without the car, etc. Any topics that deviate beyond the spirit of the forum will be moved out into their proper forums.
Rowan, has it occurred to you that there is a very direct relationship between the phenomenon of living without a car and the concept of Peak Oil? I mean, if we run out of oil, I think LCF will have a lot more traffic.
Nevertheless, even if the link is tenuous, I think we should let the market rule. What I mean is, if enough people agree with you, they won't click on any Peak Oil topics and these will die a natural death. No need to make any administrative moves. No need to take any top-down, heavy-handed moves.
Wouldn't that work? Seems simple enough to me.
JosephPaul86
05-03-08, 12:06 PM
The basic problem is the inevitability that the Peak-oil/anti-car posts ultimately have to go somewhere (assuming that nobody wants to see them deleted outright and replaced by even more repetitive censorship posts).
Some other forums I visit have an "Idiotic thread area" where the dumb crap is forwarded to.
I haven't been on this forum for a while....it has gotten kinda boring with all the oil talk and etc. I'm car-free but have a scooter. Its was nice in 07 when I made the switch to come here and read/post about things.
Lets get it back that way...hopefully getting more people to ditch their cages. :D
AllenG
05-03-08, 01:42 PM
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=412613
^^^
fordfasterr (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=44491) is giving away a homemade xtracycle (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=412613) in the lamented Utility forum. That's some real LCF spirit, and the thread is sadly ignored.
There is more than one forum here, you have to pay attention to a handful.
Newspaperguy
05-03-08, 01:49 PM
Rowan, has it occurred to you that there is a very direct relationship between the phenomenon of living without a car and the concept of Peak Oil? I mean, if we run out of oil, I think LCF will have a lot more traffic.
Too often, peak oil discussions quickly degenerate to doomsday scenarios and bleak, hopeless prophecies which accomplish nothing. (The same is true of too many global warming and climate change discussions. They tend to have the same dismal tone.)
If we choose to discuss the changes from peak oil, could we at least include an element of hope? Could we at least show what can be done as a society or better still as individuals to cope with the changes?
If the future truly is as bleak as some peak oilers would suggest and if we are all doomed, then there's really no point discussing it.
kommisar
05-03-08, 01:52 PM
Most of the practical discussions moved over to the utility cycling forum. You may find that more to you liking.
Bikepacker67
05-03-08, 02:03 PM
Too often, peak oil discussions quickly degenerate to doomsday scenarios and bleak, hopeless prophecies which accomplish nothing.
Who's bleak and hopeless?
I'm gleefully anticipating the end of cheap oil, and car culture.
Also the Just-In-Time, shipped 1000's of miles, warehouse-on-wheels concept of Wally-world will also become less and less competitive, which will expand the niches of local producers.
Suburban sprawl will cease, and contract...
All these things sound like heaven on a platter to me! :D
wahoonc
05-03-08, 02:25 PM
Who's bleak and hopeless?
I'm gleefully anticipating the end of cheap oil, and car culture.
Also the Just-In-Time, shipped 1000's of miles, warehouse-on-wheels concept of Wally-world will also become less and less competitive, which will expand the niches of local producers.
Suburban sprawl will cease, and contract...
All these things sound like heaven on a platter to me! :D
Might be bleak an hopeless for the Wally worlds...:eek::roflmao:
There will be issues and dark days, but there should be plenty of bright spots too.
Aaron:)
Artkansas
05-03-08, 03:34 PM
P&S? Politics & Shortbread? :p
Pedaling and Sweating!
donnamb
05-03-08, 04:20 PM
Not warm enough here for that today. :p
Rowan
05-03-08, 04:47 PM
Why do some people whine soo much?
Indeed, why do some people whine so much about others having and expressing opinions? And why do they whine so much about Peak Oil? More to the point, why don't you take your own advice and pass over the threads or posts that don't interest you?
Do those who think it really matters believe that there won't be a substitute for the stuff that powers our cars? It might not be cheap, it might impact on our food costs and availability, and it might be reduced in quantity compared with oil, but for those of us who have modified our lifestyles to live with reduced oil consumption, it won't make that much difference.
If I (and you and everyone else) know that Peak Oil has come or passed, wouldn't it be a good idea to just move on and discussed what this forum is meant to be about... as the original poster suggested?
Rowan
05-03-08, 04:54 PM
Who's bleak and hopeless?
I'm gleefully anticipating the end of cheap oil, and car culture.
Also the Just-In-Time, shipped 1000's of miles, warehouse-on-wheels concept of Wally-world will also become less and less competitive, which will expand the niches of local producers.
Suburban sprawl will cease, and contract...
All these things sound like heaven on a platter to me! :D
Ah, didn't read this post till later. You're a fundamentalist, in my view, who portrays himself as having lost touch with reality and that is why forums like this one disintegrate.
Why don't you just up and move to the wilds of Africa or maybe central Russia? There are many places in the world where your Utopia exists, and you will be able to prove your philosophical position beyond argument. You won't find it in North America at least in your lifetime.
TuckertonRR
05-03-08, 05:59 PM
Ah, didn't read this post till later. You're a fundamentalist, in my view, who portrays himself as having lost touch with reality and that is why forums like this one disintegrate.
Why don't you just up and move to the wilds of Africa or maybe central Russia? There are many places in the world where your Utopia exists, and you will be able to prove your philosophical position beyond argument. You won't find it in North America at least in your lifetime.
Aaah, more nit-picking & ankle-biting....
littledog
05-03-08, 06:05 PM
I like this forum. It helped me to go car free for almost 3 years now. The doom and gloom threads have some good tidbits once in a while as well.
JeffS
05-03-08, 06:51 PM
Rowan, has it occurred to you that there is a very direct relationship between the phenomenon of living without a car and the concept of Peak Oil? I mean, if we run out of oil, I think LCF will have a lot more traffic.
Nevertheless, even if the link is tenuous, I think we should let the market rule. What I mean is, if enough people agree with you, they won't click on any Peak Oil topics and these will die a natural death. No need to make any administrative moves. No need to take any top-down, heavy-handed moves.
Wouldn't that work? Seems simple enough to me.
If we lived by that philosophy we wouldn't have 30+ subforums on the site. We do though, implying that discussion should be limited to a defined subject.
Why this forum becomes the dumping ground for car-specific threads is beyond me. It seems only slightly less appropriate than the people who have to link every other gas-related news story they come across on the net.
bragi
05-03-08, 07:05 PM
Why this forum becomes the dumping ground for car-specific threads is beyond me. It seems only slightly less appropriate than the people who have to link every other gas-related news story they come across on the net.