"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - will this be possible

i'm going to be doing alot of riding and racing within the next 2 years. do you think it will be possible to move up to cat 2 by say summer of 2010? granted there's way toooo many variables, but i'm 18 and an endurance athlete, coming off of 6 years of state ranked track and cross country running.

Yes.

until you actually race, who knows.

well i've done 3 local crits, and the first 2 crits were learning experiences and placed 6th and 3rd, the last crit i just raced i won.

well i've done 3 local crits, and the first 2 crits were learning experiences and placed 6th and 3rd, the last crit i just raced i won.

What cat?

You can do it. Perhaps in less than a year depending on how much racing is available to you.

5. i'll be a 4 in the beginning of the summer. i race for the lbs in my town

As long as you do 3 things:

1. Find a coach
2. Find a coach
3. Find a good coach

i mean having a coach definitely would be great, but would it be possible if i coached myself? i did buy a training book, and want to begin really reading through it and figuring out what's the best way to go about things

you don't need a coach.

joecool, i'm guessing you got up into cat 2 w/o a coach? if so, what kind of training did you do?

you don't need a coach.

+1.

It might help, but you certainly don't need one.

Especially if you're already familiar with endurance training as a CC/track kid. In general, you could take your mileage and multiply it by 4 or 5, in all phases. Your tempo, recovery, intervals, etc. You'd be amazed at the similarities of the two, when you boil it all down.

i mean having a coach definitely would be great, but would it be possible if i coached myself? i did buy a training book, and want to begin really reading through it and figuring out what's the best way to go about things

You come from a sports background and you want to coach yourself? Show a little respect for the sport. Get a coach or, at the very least, find a mentor. If you are serious about your goals this is a must.

There are a thousand things a good coach could teach you (including tactics) in a weekend that would take you years to learn otherwise.

Also moving from 4 to 3 and then from 3 to 2 will be exponentially harder than moving from 5 to 4. Things are NOT going to get easier.

Years ago, when I was still living in NA, there were several Elite MTB racers and Tri guys who decided to start road racing for various reasons. These guys were fit and strong. I loved it when they showed up. I would use them and use them until they were spent and then leave them for dead. They were strong but had no idea how to race. I wasn't the only one who did this. It was a common practise for the local Cat P/1/2 guys.

You need to learn a lot more than just sport specific fitness to move up.

My teammate just moved up to the 4's three weeks ago. He's now one win away from making it to the 3's. Had he concentrated on the road instead of MTB he'd be a this year.

You come from a sports background and you want to coach yourself? Show a little respect for the sport. Get a coach or, at the very least, find a mentor. If you are serious about your goals this is a must.

There are a thousand things a good coach could teach you (including tactics) in a weekend that would take you years to learn otherwise.

Also moving from 4 to 3 and then from 3 to 2 will be exponentially harder than moving from 5 to 4. Things are NOT going to get easier.

Years ago, when I was still living in NA, there were several Elite MTB racers and Tri guys who decided to start road racing for various reasons. These guys were fit and strong. I loved it when they showed up. I would use them and use them until they were spent and then leave them for dead. They were strong but had no idea how to race. I wasn't the only one who did this. It was a common practise for the local Cat P/1/2 guys.

You need to learn a lot more than just sport specific fitness to move up.

Oops. I left that part out.

As the good Bob Dopolina pointed out, there is more to bike racing that fitness. You don't need a coach, but you definitely need someone to talk to you about what you did right and wrong in races or hard group training rides. An individual that is genuinely interested in seeing you succeed is something you really do need. I had several; an older teammate at my school (a grad student) and the father of another teammate. I absorbed everything they said, and slowly, put it together.

To summarize:

To get fit, you don't need a coach.

To learn how to race quickly and effectively, you need a mentor.

joecool, i'm guessing you got up into cat 2 w/o a coach? if so, what kind of training did you do?

No, not quite a Cat2 yet, but i am half way there and i have only been racing bicycles for less than 6 months without a coach. I ran track and cross country in high school like yourself and i beleive that has helped A LOT. Running has taught me what pain really is and i dont know if i have ever felt as much pain on a bike as i have in a 5k or a 1600m, or at least they are two very different types of pain to me.

I have had a Powertap for a few months and it is a neat tool but again i dont think it is a necessity to get to Cat2. My advice would pretty much be just to ride a lot and DO INTERVALS, that is short intense bursts of speed that simulate a race or an attack, or do lots of steep climbing. You can put in huge amounts of miles but they wont mean squat without being able to keep up a fast pace and recover.

And also, like others have said, it is good to know people with more experience. I dont think you need a coach in the purest sense, but it will help a lot to do lots of group rides with more experienced riders and to make friends with them and be open to advice.

... You don't need a coach, but you definitely need someone to talk to you about what you did right and wrong in races or hard group training rides. An individual that is genuinely interested in seeing you succeed is something you really do need. I had several; an older teammate at my school (a grad student) and the father of another teammate. I absorbed everything they said, and slowly, put it together...

.


A coach by any other name is still a coach.;)

You dont need a coach to get fit. But if you want to learn how to race a bike, save yourself a lot of time and get one.

edit: for some reason in our sport the term coach has taken on the meaning of someone who draws up training plans. Dont know why. Does a Football coach teach you how to run? Does a Basketball coach teach you how to make squeaky noses on the floor? Nope, they teach you how to play the game.

As long as you do 3 things:

1. Find a coach
2. Find a coach
3. Find a good coach

How can you tell the difference?

One of my teammates has gone from a beginning 4 to a 2 in 3 months. No coach.

One of my teammates has gone from a beginning 4 to a 2 in 3 months. No coach.

Great! And I can think of any number of guys who were strong, fast, and never figured out how to get it done. Not saying its impossible, and for the rare exception its probably inevitable.

i've got mentors in the sport that help me along, and they tell me all about racing, tactics, teams, positions on the teams, your role as a team member etc. so i'm definitely not left out to dry when it comes to road biking. i've got people to look up to

It's possible. Not typical but I wouldnt even consider it all that rare to go from 5--->2 in 1 season. Just ride lots, race lots, be receptive to the criticism and experience of others, do your hard rides hard and your easy rides easy (dont forget the easy part - that's what almost everyone ignores).

a lot of us ohio guys are familiar with abe and the "danimal" both who went from 5-->2 in one season after running competitively. i don't know much about abe, but dan is a serious monster who also ran track and cross country. i think his best 5k in college was 14:50 or thereabouts. anyway, he had a lot of general bike handling skills from having done bmx stuff earlier, is a great race tactician, and majored in exercise science, so yeah, he did pretty well. i also think that it helped him to do mostly road races early in the season and then make the jumps to crits later in the year.

here are your advantages as a former endurance athlete:
1. great engine
2. mentally prepared for workload
3. have at LEAST a preliminary understanding of the different systems that are taxed during efforts and can perceive exertion accurately
4. know how to suffer
5. know that you have to have recovery days
6. not too much, if any, weight to shed (i have intentionally gained weight since i ran in college)

try to be open and friendly at races, listen to what other people are telling you, and see what works for you. a lot of the guys on your team will probably be impressed with your talent and try to help you as much as they can. good luck.

Distance runners already have the mindset to suffer and the aerobic engine for cycling. I think you will do good. Why the cat2 in 2 years?

2 other examples
Teammate went from a 5 to a 1 this season.
PizzaMan went from a 5 to 2 in just over a season. Both ex-runners.

You could be pro 1 right now if you could find someone with a contract for you to sign.

i've got mentors in the sport that help me along, and they tell me all about racing, tactics, teams, positions on the teams, your role as a team member etc. so i'm definitely not left out to dry when it comes to road biking. i've got people to look up to

Then you are in a good position to reach your goals, IMHO.

Good luck and keep posting here. I will be interesting to follow your progress.

Great! And I can think of any number of guys who were strong, fast, and never figured out how to get it done. Not saying its impossible, and for the rare exception its probably inevitable.

He really focused on cyclocross last season and came out swinging at the begining of this year. After seeing what some really strong MTB'ers and CX'ers have done in Southern California this year, i'm pretty-much sold. I'm gonna give CX a try this year.

He really focused on cyclocross last season and came out swinging at the begining of this year. After seeing what some really strong MTB'ers and CX'ers have done in Southern California this year, i'm pretty-much sold. I'm gonna give CX a try this year.

I'll be joining you...CX looks like freakn' blast....of course now I have to explain to the wife why I need a road bike/crit bike/TT bike and a CX bike....they all look the same to her..

Just show her a touring car race, then WRC!

Unless you get a coach and a power meter, preferably an SRM, you're totally wasting your time

Just show her a touring car race, then WRC!

Nerve wracking, then absolutely frightening.

He'll never get anything again if he does this. Never, ever compare your activities to that sort of thing. When I first told my mom "Hey, it's just like NASCAR" when describing crits, she hid my shoes to keep me from racing that day.


That being said, I have an Impreza and my next car will be an STI or Evo...

I think most of people here that are discounting the idea of having a coach have never had one.

I have a coach, I'm slow, but as soon as I get my ass in gear and do what I'm supposed to I am super confident I will progress much faster than people without a coach. my teammate has been following his training schedules since jan. and is getting really fast... will probably go from a 4 to a 2 this year. it really makes a huge difference, the REAL coaches out there have so much more knowledge than they get credit for, its not as simple as the books out there make it out to be or there would be no need for coaches.

I think self-motivation is way more valuable than a coach.

Nerve wracking, then absolutely frightening.

He'll never get anything again if he does this. Never, ever compare your activities to that sort of thing. When I first told my mom "Hey, it's just like NASCAR" when describing crits, she hid my shoes to keep me from racing that day.


That being said, I have an Impreza and my next car will be an STI or Evo...


I'm hoping my next car will not require gas.


I think self-motivation is way more valuable than a coach.

Absolutely. Unless you're playing tennis.

I'm hoping my next car will not require gas.



Absolutely. Unless you're playing tennis.

Learning to put topspin on the ball was a huge eyeopener for me. I doubt I would have figured it out myself.

Learning to put topspin on the ball was a huge eyeopener for me. I doubt I would have figured it out myself.

Haha. That's so early on in a player's development, though. Learning to apply (any)spin is like finding out what your penis does when you play with it:lol:

I was rated a 4.5 "player" out of highschool, but without a coach to teach me footwork and strategy, I was really just a 4.5 ball striker. Great for hitting around, but practically useless in matches.

I can see how a coach would have an impact on a cyclist, but like joecool said, self-motivation is a bigger factor in endurance sports.

Haha. That's so early on in a player's development, though. Learning to apply (any)spin is like finding out what your penis does when you play with it:lol:

I was rated a 4.5 "player" out of highschool, but without a coach to teach me footwork and strategy, I was really just a 4.5 ball striker. Great for hitting around, but practically useless in matches.

I can see how a coach would have an impact on a cyclist, but like joecool said, self-motivation is a bigger factor in endurance sports.

I think because anyone can ride a bike people assume that racing just means getting fit and getting used to riding in a group. Although these, and self-motivation, are certainly cornerstones of being a racer, there are so many little things that add up to make a successful cat2 rider.

I have raced against guys who were strong enough to get there but had no idea what to do once they were there. Cat 2 fodder.

Many of these things you can figure out yourself, over time, but why not seek help? Do you really need to re-invent the wheel?

Examples (in no particular order and in no way complete)

How to:

Taper, peak, lead-out, double-shift, fake an attack, what to pack in your race bag, what to eat, when to eat, what not to eat, when not to eat, how to identify safe wheels to follow or dangerous ones, how to chase, when to chase, when not to chase, who to chase, who not to chase, how to hold a wheel, how to take a wheel, how to hold your position in the group, how to gap riders in corners, how to countersteer, good lines on descents, bad ones, what the pain in your xxx might mean, what to do in the weight room, what not to do in the weight room, how to make others work for you, how not to be the one working for others, how to pin a rider at the front...

i'm going to be doing alot of riding and racing within the next 2 years. do you think it will be possible to move up to cat 2 by say summer of 2010? granted there's way toooo many variables, but i'm 18 and an endurance athlete, coming off of 6 years of state ranked track and cross country running.

Another I should have added to my list. If you live near a Velodrome take advantage of it. You will learn more about how to position yourself in a month of training races on the track then in a seasons worth of Crits (and it's fun). Great way to accelerate the learning curve. (and usually some great coaching available)

Many of these things you can figure out yourself, over time, but why not seek help? Do you really need to re-invent the wheel?



I don't want to create a debate here, but...

This is the difference between endurance sports and more skill oriented sports. One can go far in endurance sports by applying what they read in books, and compete against professionals. Not so with stick and ball. If you don't have a coach as a tennis player, you don't even sniff success at the lowest levels of competition.

Haha. That's so early on in a player's development, though. Learning to apply (any)spin is like finding out what your penis does when you play with it:lol:

I was rated a 4.5 "player" out of highschool, but without a coach to teach me footwork and strategy, I was really just a 4.5 ball striker. Great for hitting around, but practically useless in matches.

I can see how a coach would have an impact on a cyclist, but like joecool said, self-motivation is a bigger factor in endurance sports.

I never said I made it far as a tennis player. I was the same. I'd do well when hitting for fun and catch my High school coaches eye, but I started to suck the second things started getting competitive. Oh well.

I think because anyone can ride a bike people assume that racing just means getting fit and getting used to riding in a group. Although these, and self-motivation, are certainly cornerstones of being a racer, there are so many little things that add up to make a successful cat2 rider.

I have raced against guys who were strong enough to get there but had no idea what to do once they were there. Cat 2 fodder.

Many of these things you can figure out yourself, over time, but why not seek help? Do you really need to re-invent the wheel?

Examples (in no particular order and in no way complete)

How to:

Taper, peak, lead-out, double-shift, fake an attack, what to pack in your race bag, what to eat, when to eat, what not to eat, when not to eat, how to identify safe wheels to follow or dangerous ones, how to chase, when to chase, when not to chase, who to chase, who not to chase, how to hold a wheel, how to take a wheel, how to hold your position in the group, how to gap riders in corners, how to countersteer, good lines on descents, bad ones, what the pain in your xxx might mean, what to do in the weight room, what not to do in the weight room, how to make others work for you, how not to be the one working for others, how to pin a rider at the front...

This would have helped me out a ton a week and a half ago. Now I'm just going to be unable to ride for the next month and a half...
And my face and knee hurt...

I'm just bitter.

Good luck to the OP. Hopefully I'll bump into you at races in the CT area after you upgrade. I don't know if I'll be able to make the 10 race requirement to get to the 4's by the end of summer. Hopefully you'll be a 3 by then anyway :)

sandbagger rules state that you must be able to do a 30+ mph TT in order to even consider upgrading to cat 2.

just a FYI.

I don't want to create a debate here, but...

This is the difference between endurance sports and more skill oriented sports. One can go far in endurance sports by applying what they read in books, and compete against professionals. Not so with stick and ball. If you don't have a coach as a tennis player, you don't even sniff success at the lowest levels of competition.

I would agree with both statements.

However, there is a tactical and technical element to cycling that you will not learn in books. I also think you are seriously underestimating the value of these and how they contribute to success. Some of them are so subtle that you would most likely never pick up on them even after years of riding, others you may.

The OP stated a specific goal and I still assert that a coach, or a mentor (which the OP seems to have) is very important for reaching those goals.

Racing is in the head, not the legs. In the end fitness is just not enough.

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I would agree with both statements.

However, there is a tactical and technical element to cycling that you will not learn in books. I also think you are seriously underestimating the value of these and how they contribute to success. Some of them are so subtle that you would most likely never pick up on them even after years of riding, others you may.

The OP stated a specific goal and I still assert that a coach, or a mentor (which the OP seems to have) is very important for reaching those goals.

Racing is in the head, not the legs. In the end fitness is just not enough.

I'm not saying that someone can or will learn the finest tactical skills without being shown. I don't doubt that a coach can have a huge effect on a cyclist at all. What i'm saying is that the fundamentals are more accessible to the uncoached cyclist(endurance athlete) through reading and/or simple trial and error because to the bgeinner, the sport is based more on physical strength and capacity rather than acquired physical skill. The uncoached tennis player has zero hope of improving by using this method because even to the beginner, the sport demands form and discipline. I use myself as an example. I'm pretty fast on the bike, and a pretty consistent top 10 finisher. LOTS of people here can say that, and it means zippo. But the fact is that i'm competitive without a coach or a well-defined training regimen in full 75-100 rider fields. Someone can reach an "expert" or "semi-pro" level in bike racing simply by being fast and/or strong.
As a tennis player without a coach, I can hit just about any shot in the book, but I can't beat a well coached 13 year-old junior player without being shown proper form and execution.

I'm just sayin' he doesn't need a coach to be a Cat2 within a year if he believes in himself and busts his butt.

Years ago, when I was still living in NA, there were several Elite MTB racers and Tri guys who decided to start road racing for various reasons. These guys were fit and strong. I loved it when they showed up. I would use them and use them until they were spent and then leave them for dead. They were strong but had no idea how to race. I wasn't the only one who did this. It was a common practise for the local Cat P/1/2 guys.

You need to learn a lot more than just sport specific fitness to move up.

+a lot

A coach who can teach you to race and not just give you fitness programs from Friel's book will make a *huge* difference. The published books on racing just give the very beginnings of race tactics. The good coaches pass the good stuff by word of mouth only.

One of my teammates has gone from a beginning 4 to a 2 in 3 months. No coach.

Having a coach taught me how to consistently beat riders who are significantly younger and stronger than me.

Having a coach taught me how to consistently beat riders who are significantly younger and stronger than me.

My teammate is 36.

I don't want to create a debate here, but...

This is the difference between endurance sports and more skill oriented sports. One can go far in endurance sports by applying what they read in books, and compete against professionals. Not so with stick and ball. If you don't have a coach as a tennis player, you don't even sniff success at the lowest levels of competition.

Winning consistently at cycling is as much about skill as strength. You have to have the strength and endurance to even get into the game, but you have to have skill to win consistently. Coaching took me from being a terminal Cat 3 to a competitive cat 2, making it into the finals at elite nats at age 40.

^^^ (http://bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=6650256&postcount=44)

:rolleyes:

He doesn't need a coach to reach Cat2 by 2010. Nothing more to say.

I'm not saying that someone can or will learn the finest tactical skills without being shown. I don't doubt that a coach can have a huge effect on a cyclist at all. What i'm saying is that the fundamentals are more accessible to the uncoached cyclist(endurance athlete) through reading and/or simple trial and error because to the bgeinner, the sport is based more on physical strength and capacity rather than acquired physical skill.

To the beginner rider, I would agree. The OP wants to move past this point, however.


The uncoached tennis player has zero hope of improving by using this method because even to the beginner, the sport demands form and discipline. I use myself as an example. I'm pretty fast on the bike, and a pretty consistent top 10 finisher. LOTS of people here can say that, and it means zippo. But the fact is that i'm competitive without a coach or a well-defined training regimen in full 75-100 rider fields.

Are you riding as a Cat2? The jump from 3 to 2 is a big one.


Someone can reach an "expert" or "semi-pro" level in bike racing simply by being fast and/or strong.
As a tennis player without a coach, I can hit just about any shot in the book, but I can't beat a well coached 13 year-old junior player without being shown proper form and execution.

I've known quite a few riders who would fit this description. Strong and dumb. This is not a good recipe for success. The OP is coming from and elite running background and I doubt (IMHO) that he wants to be cat 2 fodder.


I'm just sayin' he doesn't need a coach to be a Cat2 within a year if he believes in himself and busts his butt.

This is possibly true. I guess we differ in that getting there, and being competitive there are two different things. I am assuming the later. Perhaps this is my error.