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this is one of my biggest annoyances while out riding. I'm approaching a stopsign and a motorist tries to beat me to it...like within the last 10-20 yards before the intersection they think they just HAVE to get by me. Is it a bad move on my part to move left to avoid being crowded at the stop sign? Do they really know what they are doing?
My wife and I had this debate. I start moving left to take the lane to assert my right to be there. She says it's an A-hole move on my part. I said if it were a motorcycle approaching a stop sign they damn sure wouldn't pull the same move. But she got me thinking....and now I feel like an A-hole...
Don't feel like an a-hole. You're wife just doesn't know what it's like. You are just asserting yourself. Motorists who cut off cyclists are acting improperly.
Just be careful not to let the adrenaline cause you to challenge a dumb motorist. ;)
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a couple of reality-grounded observations
1) with steady or congested traffic, sometimes you DON'T get to 'control the lane' approaching the stop.
2) when lanes get wide, you don't get to 'control the lane'.
3) Some motorists will try to pass you regardless of how well you 'control the lane.' even stopping over a double yellow.
a couple of reality-grounded observations
1) with steady or congested traffic, sometimes you DON'T get to 'control the lane' approaching the stop.
2) when lanes get wide, you don't get to 'control the lane'.
3) Some motorists will try to pass you regardless of how well you 'control the lane.' even stopping over a double yellow.
1- only if one forgets to merge early
2- perhaps not the whole lane unless going straight, but one can control ones desired lane position for appropriate left or right destination
3- that is their problem if then end up positioned illegally
Al
Do they really know what they are doing?
No.
... Brad
1- only if one forgets to merge early
Al
its not that absolutist, Al.
Using the center of the lane as a default position can be very helpful. It's easier to move right when it's safe to allow a pass than it is to butt back into traffic at the last moment when you want to take the lane.
When a faster vehicle approaches you from behind, decide early on who's going to get there first and help make it so. Sometimes slightly speeding up (to discourage a late pass) or slowing down (to allow a safe pass) is very helpful in avoiding confusion on who will get there first.
That's my approach. I don't mind pulling up behind 'em, especially if there are more cars to be behind me.
Depends whether you wish to filter or not.
-Kurt
Find someone new to ride with.
a couple of reality-grounded observations
1) with steady or congested traffic, sometimes you DON'T get to 'control the lane' approaching the stop.
2) when lanes get wide, you don't get to 'control the lane'.
3) Some motorists will try to pass you regardless of how well you 'control the lane.' even stopping over a double yellow.
**** I didn't get to "control the lane" with my 2200lb car today. :rolleyes:
**** I didn't get to "control the lane" with my 2200lb car today. :rolleyes:
That's a good thing.
Thanks for thinking of someone else's safety. Sheesh.
That's a good thing.
Thanks for thinking of someone else's safety. Sheesh.
I'm just pointing out that if I can't control it with an equally deadly amount of steel, that relying on it as the theory behind cycling is a poor idea. Not that I demand my privilege to the road and will use my car to muscle my way in. I'm just pointing out that even in my car I've had vehicles decide I wasn't doing it right enough for them, never mind I drive for a living and rack up way more dangerous miles than they do.
Frankly with my driving style, I'm safer than most cyclists I see on the road, though it seems the quantity of those cycling with the rules is on a rise.
Personally: Assume you'll have control of the lane, but be prepared to yield to any dip**** who thinks otherwise, getting tangled up with another vehicle no matter how minor or how much metal is between you two isn't worth your time and stress, either that or you have no life and you need to look for problems to have some excitement.
If you ride over at the right in the gutter at intersections, you are inviting a person to pass you at the stop sign. If you are over in the gutter, good luck turning left. Don't let people pass you in your lane at stop intersections.
a couple of reality-grounded observations
1) with steady or congested traffic, sometimes you DON'T get to 'control the lane' approaching the stop.
2) when lanes get wide, you don't get to 'control the lane'.
3) Some motorists will try to pass you regardless of how well you 'control the lane.' even stopping over a double yellow.
1. I've never had a serious problem with cars at stops. Only things that share lanes with me at intercestions are scooter, bikes and motos. I don't leave enough room for cars, unless the want to hit me, hasn't happened yet.
2. I've not had a problem, again cars don't seem to want to hit me.
3. If they want to go into oncoming traffic, let them. Not my problem. This is when a mirror comes in handy, as they start to squeeze up the left, I keep moving left giving them only 2 options; stop compltely in the oncoming lane (happens occasionally) or step back in line behind me (common).
Absolutely Panglossian, maddyfish!
you too, making fantastical & unrealistic claims of always being able to control the lane approaching stopsigns! the universally polite and considerate motorists you have favor to always be surrounded by, never crowding you and always finding space in the stopsign lineup. AMAZINGLY polite, DISBELIEVINGLY orderly!
Sorry Bek, maybe you just look like a person who can be pushed around? I just don't have troubles at stop signs. Except the occasional stop sign running bike rider.
People in my home town are exceptionally nice, but I ride in alot of other places. I was just in Miami, no trouble there either. Even though lots of people claim bikes are hated there. I found the poeple to be mostly nice, some even speak English!
no troubles here except with your panglossian description of an always orderly procession of you mingling with motorists as you both approach stopsigns at about the same time.
so beautiful it must be, to have such polite, considerate and discerning motorists where you ride.
Your depiction of the most troubles you have at stopsigns are bicyclists! H-I-L-A-R-I-O-U-S. are you really trying to be so comic? that's your biggest problem at stops? how about the motorists overtaking and at cross streets violating ones' right of way? These are the FAR MORE common and realistic problems bicyclists universally face at stopssigns. but for you it's the bicyclists...
I just don't have troubles at stop signs. Except the occasional stop sign running bike rider. do i sense a LAB instructor lurking in there? :roflmao:
no troubles here except with your panglossian description of an always orderly procession of you mingling with motorists as you both approach stopsigns at about the same time.
so beautiful it must be, to have such polite, considerate and discerning motorists where you ride.
Your depiction of the most troubles you have at stopsigns are bicyclists! H-I-L-A-R-I-O-U-S. are you really trying to be so comic? that's your biggest problem at stops? how about the motorists overtaking and at cross streets violating ones' right of way? These are the FAR MORE common and realistic problems bicyclists universally face at stopssigns. but for you it's the bicyclists...
do i sense a LAB instructor lurking in there? :roflmao:
Hmmmm....not sure I understand the dispute here.
FWIW, my daily commute includes a 4-way stop that is typically quite busy with traffic. The roadways are each one lane, with dedicated left turn lanes, and "informal" right turn lanes.
Whenever approaching this intersection, I move left and take the center of the lane about 100 feet prior to the intersection. I'm quite assertive when I move left, making it obvious that I'm "taking my place" in the queue (I rarely filter on the right, because there's often right turning traffic and the informal right turn lane is very narrow).
In the past year of near daily commuting, I've had virtually no problems with cars trying to come around me prior to this intersection. Likewise, I've had virtually no problems negotiating the intersection itself. So, I guess mine is a "panglossian" environment too.
Perhaps your problems are unique to your locale, or to your riding style. Do other cyclists in your community report the same types of problems that you encounter?
It doesn't matter the locale, and I'm most emphatically not having 'problems' with motorists.
I brought up a few reality based observations:
when the lanes are wide or the traffic is steady, claiming the lane is not always possible, and some motorists will try to pass you regardless.
This is even if you are center of the lane OR left biased for that matter- you give them enough lane to your right in a wide enough, some motorists will pass YOU on the right approaching the stop.
And maddyfish's insistence bicyclists are his biggest problem at stopsigns? please. motorists violating your right of way at a stop sign is far more common of a problem than bicyclists.
I find it hard to believe that cyclists running red lights is more of a problem then motorized traffic.
More generally, I don't see motorized traffic as a problem at stop signs in the first place -- at least a problem that is pretty effectively dealt with by simple lane position -- most intersections with stop signs just don't have that much dense traffic. If they did, there would be a traffic light.
I see stopsigns at rush hour that have 20-30 motorists backed up on each leg regularily, dense traffic the bicyclist doesn't WANT to merge into approaching a stopsign, but there's reality again.
I won't belabour any of my points though, i've said my piece. can't always take the lane, don't always get too, and sometimes there's a motorist that just doesn't care.
I'm with invisible, SSP and maddyfish. It is quite easy to destination position at stop signed intersection.
If the traffic is backed up 20-30 vehicles at a stop sign the cyclist has two choices:
-Line up and wait with everyone else. Then there no issue in destination positioning.
or
-Filter forward and cut the line. Since you are cutting the line I can see why other driver waiting would be annoyed. Yes you are cutting as every vehicle at a stop signs need to wait their turn. I would still filter and cut if the line was this long, but realize you are asking others to let you cut.
Al
I find it hard to believe that cyclists running red lights is more of a problem then motorized traffic.
More generally, I don't see motorized traffic as a problem at stop signs in the first place -- at least a problem that is pretty effectively dealt with by simple lane position -- most intersections with stop signs just don't have that much dense traffic. If they did, there would be a traffic light.
You are probably right... which is why the Idaho law works. But with regard to lights...
It all depends on how cyclists run the lights. I watched a cyclist last Friday that ran the lights... and in doing so he managed to impede two motorists that were making turns at the same light. In that case, there were problems, but the motorists were the ones inconvenienced by a cyclist with poor judgment.
In other cases I have seen cyclists simply take off early from a light when there was no cross traffic, and no one was inconvenienced... so it really didn't matter... but I am willing to bet that motorists saw the cyclist and it registered in their minds...
Meanwhile, I am sure :rolleyes: all motorists around were all driving the speed limit.
I'm with invisible, SSP and maddyfish. It is quite easy to destination position at stop signed intersection.
If the traffic is backed up 20-30 vehicles at a stop sign the cyclist has two choices:
-Line up and wait with everyone else. Then there no issue in destination positioning.
or
-Filter forward and cut the line. Since you are cutting the line I can see why other driver waiting would be annoyed. Yes you are cutting as every vehicle at a stop signs need to wait their turn. I would still filter and cut if the line was this long, but realize you are asking others to let you cut.
Al
I don't think of it as "cutting the line"...instead, I think of it as :
http://www.ricesigns.com/pictures/W9-2L.gif
(although drivers may not agree :lol:).
But, since I take up much less room on the roadway, and I'm much "greener" than the cars I pass, I think it's a prerogative that cyclists have a right to exercise.
FWIW, I try to time my merge to be as smooth as possible. Using a mirror, it's pretty easy to see a gap, signal, and get into it, without much stress...even when there's a line of vehicles at the stop.
And if there's a formal right turn lane, it's pretty easy to roll all the way up to the intersection on the left hand edge of the RTOL.
This stuff's not rocket science...it just takes a bit of assertiveness and common sense to negotiate most traffic scenarios (caffeine-overdosed and sunlight-deprived Seattleites being a possible exception :lol:).
But, since I take up much less room on the roadway, and I'm much "greener" than the cars I pass, I think it's a prerogative that cyclists have a right to exercise.
Somewhat off topic, but frankly I wish we did have a system that recognized that our effort was both greener and provided for less congestion... that we are in fact "sacrificing**" for others, and therefore should get some "priority."
But I guess our "system" is based on living "high on the hog..." :rolleyes:
** of course no doubt some may point to the fun factor and suggest that we are having too much fun at the "expense" of others... ;)
If the traffic is backed up 20-30 vehicles at a stop sign the cyclist has two choices:
-Line up and wait with everyone else. Then there no issue in destination positioning.
or
-Filter forward and cut the line. Since you are cutting the line I can see why other driver waiting would be annoyed. Yes you are cutting as every vehicle at a stop signs need to wait their turn. I would still filter and cut if the line was this long, but realize you are asking others to let you cut.
This reminded me of a situation which i face several times a day. I choose the 'filter' technique, of course, but I don't 'cut the line' - so to speak - because I don't take up an extra slot, and don't slow anybody down (much), and in theory, I even speed everyone up, on average.
<drum roll, please...>
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=71350&stc=1&d=1210630072
I time my 'stop' - which is really a rolling/'California' stop - so as to stay right on the back-right bumper of the car at the stop sign with me (on my left) - or the car approaching the stop sign from the same direction/lane as me, or the first or second car stopped and waiting already at the stop sign in the same lane as me. That first and/or second car, 9 times out of 10, is going straight. I watch for a blinker. I basically use the car as a 'shield' against all the other cars flying around the intersection. Depending on the exact situation, I may or may not actually be beside or somewhat behind the car to my left - guiding me through the intersection. Sometimes the car to my left will not know what I want to do, and they'll be nice like the rest of the folks in the intersection and let me go, so I go, and I do my best to hurry across. It's common courtesy, and I feel certain that it's appreciated.
It works and it's awesome for one reason, primarily - it moves everyone along, and motorists appreciate that I was looking out for their time. Cyclists who pull up to the stop sign, drop the feet on the pavement, then crank back up again take what seems like forever to get through the intersection. Talk about annoying. Shoot - even I, cyclist dude, get annoyed by other cyclists who chill at the Stop sign. I imagine car drivers feel what I feel, but even more so.
So, car drivers see me cut, of course, but they end up thinking, "Dang - ok. At least he didn't cut and didn't slow me and the rest of us down (much)."
And that's important because instead of going away angry, they go away thinking, "I wonder if I could do that?"
:thumb:
This reminded me of a situation which i face several times a day.
I time my 'stop' - which is really a rolling/'California' stop - so as to stay right on the back-right bumper of the car at the stop sign with me (on my left) -
Only problem with this is the ongoing impression that "those darn cyclists just don't stop... " :wtf:
So apparently motorists like to pick and chose from their list of complaints... :rolleyes:
I don't see how you will be certain to avoid a right hook with that method.
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