Advocacy & Safety - bullied at stopsigns?

this is one of my biggest annoyances while out riding. I'm approaching a stopsign and a motorist tries to beat me to it...like within the last 10-20 yards before the intersection they think they just HAVE to get by me. Is it a bad move on my part to move left to avoid being crowded at the stop sign? Do they really know what they are doing?

My wife and I had this debate. I start moving left to take the lane to assert my right to be there. She says it's an A-hole move on my part. I said if it were a motorcycle approaching a stop sign they damn sure wouldn't pull the same move. But she got me thinking....and now I feel like an A-hole...

Your wife is wrong.

Your wife is wrong.

Oh man, now he has to tell her. :eek:

why are you moving left at a stop sign? Either take the lane the whole time, or keep to the curb the whole time.

Its been my experience that they will often do this, not so much to get past you but to get beside you so that they can take off from the sign without having to wait for you. The hazard for you is that often they want to turn right, which will pinch you into the curb. My philosophy has been that where you are going the same speed as traffic you take the lane, and when traffic is faster you ride on the right (but not dangerously close to the curb.). So, coming to a stop sign I often take the lane as a safety measure, and then once I am leaving the intersection I am courteous about providing room for the cars to pass.

In my Province it is illegal to pass or lane change immediatley before an intersection. The broken white lines between lanes become solid before the intersection to indicate this, so the car is in the wrong, and if you are taking the lane you should do it before the line becomes solid.

i should also add that i was riding with her yesterday and this happened. i heard a large pickup approaching us from behind (we were riding single file), and i could just "tell" that he was going to pull this crap. i admit that i did whip over pretty quickly because he was trying to crowd us literally within about 10-20 meters from the sign and he had to get on his brakes and move into the oncoming lane. she and i had a heated discussion for the next couple of miles regarding my agressiveness. my stance was for one, he was not giving us the required room (3 feet) and two he wouldn't have done the same thing to an auto or motorcycle. she said that from her perspective (being right behind me) I swerved over right in front of him and if he had hit me it would have been my fault.

i do feel bad because i might have endangered her in the process. i probably should have just let him go by and pull up to his window and given him an earfull....

I take the lane, if I can, right before I get to the stop sign. Just seems correct, to me at least. I don't want to get hooked by a right turn.

If the lanes are way narrow, I would certainly do so, otherwise, no. And yes, your wife is wrong.

why are you moving left at a stop sign? Either take the lane the whole time, or keep to the curb the whole time.


if there are cars back, i won't take the whole lane because that is definately an A-hole move. i always try to give cars room to safely get by if i can. i try to keep car/cyclist relations positive if i can.

I wouldn't be so agressive as to confront a driver that does this, but a rule of thumb is at an intersection, take the lane. I don't do it agressively, but rather I give a look behind well ahead of the stop and move to the center of the lane.

Motorists feel the need to overtake a bicycle even if the bicycle is traveling at the posted speed limit. It's just a perception that bikes are always traveling slower than the rest of traffic.

Take the lane.

thanks! now i don't feel like such an Eh-whole.

but wives are always right, doncha know

i should also add that i was riding with her yesterday and this happened. i heard a large pickup approaching us from behind (we were riding single file), and i could just "tell" that he was going to pull this crap. i admit that i did whip over pretty quickly because he was trying to crowd us literally within about 10-20 meters from the sign and he had to get on his brakes and move into the oncoming lane. she and i had a heated discussion for the next couple of miles regarding my agressiveness. my stance was for one, he was not giving us the required room (3 feet) and two he wouldn't have done the same thing to an auto or motorcycle. she said that from her perspective (being right behind me) I swerved over right in front of him and if he had hit me it would have been my fault.

i do feel bad because i might have endangered her in the process. i probably should have just let him go by and pull up to his window and given him an earfull....

Forget the earful. Out here in the Southeast US, that will most likely give you the opportunity to see the inside of a .45 Smith & Wesson barrel. Sad but true.

I'm probably going to look like a wimp to a lot of people in this forum for saying this, but I don't like having a car slowly pacing behind me. It's much harder to see him/her and if they get angry they will probably just gun the engine and buzz past you when they can. If I slowing and coming to a stop anyway I'll probably let them pass and look for any turn signal they might use, and then I don't have to deal with them anymore.

I take the lane well before the stop sign to minimize motorists from passing, if the intersection is wide enough, I'll stay as far left as possible to let by right turning traffic. Taking the lane before a stop or controlled intersection will help in blocking right hooks, plus if there are parked cars on the opposite side of the intersection, it will help you maintain your lane position. Nothing like being forced to a stop or having to work your way back into traffic when the wolf pack freight trains by you.

Moving to the left is the right step. I do it, and it's really funny when the driver still tries to pass and ends up at the stop sign in the wrong lane.

I've got my family trained to take the lane before the intersection. There are 4 of us, and the first and third rider move left, ending in a 2 x 2 at the line. This gives us room to start moving again without such an accordian effect, and then when we're rolling again we merge back single file.

If it's my wife and me only, same thing, lead rider goes left.

Either way we do it enough in advance to not be cutting people off. We grab an available gap in traffic. If we can't do that, then we're stuck with the results and are very aware of the possibility of the right hook.

Riding by myself I'll take the lane if practical, but often just stay right and watch for trouble. I'm more able to brake or swerve if I'm by myself, but if I have my wife and/or kids with me, I pick my routes carefully and always put their safety first. We've probably got a couple thousand miles with all 4 of us together and have never experienced a collision between a car and a bicycle, not even a near miss that I can think of.

Your Wife Loves You. Honor That.
At stop signs the Largest Vehicle rules in my Life. Hey I am still alive.

I take the lane, if I can, right before I get to the stop sign. Just seems correct, to me at least. I don't want to get hooked by a right turn.

I concur, but I generally try to move left a bit sooner than "right before."

If there is room for safe side-by-side sharing and if you can be sure that a nearby motorist is not going to turn right across your path, then be polite and share the lane. In all other situations, however, you are better off being assertive, which means taking a narrow lane and always positioning yourself to minimize the danger of a right-hook.

... if the intersection is wide enough, I'll stay as far left as possible to let by right turning traffic. ... I move just far enough left to permit right-turners to squeeze slowly between me and the curb. Twice I have had motorists pass me on the right to go straight at an intersection. Trust me, this is a bad unintended consequence.

this is one of my biggest annoyances while out riding. I'm approaching a stopsign and a motorist tries to beat me to it...like within the last 10-20 yards before the intersection they think they just HAVE to get by me. Is it a bad move on my part to move left to avoid being crowded at the stop sign? Do they really know what they are doing?

My wife and I had this debate. I start moving left to take the lane to assert my right to be there. She says it's an A-hole move on my part. I said if it were a motorcycle approaching a stop sign they damn sure wouldn't pull the same move. But she got me thinking....and now I feel like an A-hole...

Thanks - this is a huge peeve of mine too. When approaching a stop sign I ALWAYS move left to prevent getting squeezed - seriously I always do this and don't even think about it.

What's funny is on small streets like this (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=denver&ie=UTF8&ll=39.721844,-104.948359&spn=0.008648,0.015986&z=16&iwloc=addr) -- when a motorist tries to overrun me but doesn't make it they end up NEXT to me - impeding someone making a left or right turn onto "our" street from the crossing street. (sorry I didn't explain that well,) but the motorist basically puts himself completely in the way.

I have had right turning motorists go around me to the left and try to squeeze into the right, rather then just hold their position that would yield me at the center (already taking the lane) prepared to cross at the green, and them at the right where they wanted to be. Totally dumb move.

I will generally adjust my lateral position to the left as I approach an intersection, more to discourage right hooks and to make myself more visible to oncoming left turns. This has the effect of discouraging last minute passing, but does not eliminate it. Some motorists do not think that a bicycle should ever be in front of them, and there is nothing that I am going to be able to do to change that perception. This behaviour will only be perceived to be obnoxious by A-holes, therefore your wife's statement says more about her anti social attitudes than yours.

Using the center of the lane as a default position can be very helpful. It's easier to move right when it's safe to allow a pass than it is to butt back into traffic at the last moment when you want to take the lane.

When a faster vehicle approaches you from behind, decide early on who's going to get there first and help make it so. Sometimes slightly speeding up (to discourage a late pass) or slowing down (to allow a safe pass) is very helpful in avoiding confusion on who will get there first.

it's pretty clearly an A-hole move. sorry. :)

it's pretty clearly an A-hole move. sorry. :)

Only if the cyclist darts out in front of the motorist at the last moment. If they signal and merge early (or better yet are already there by default when applicable) it is in no way an A-hole move, and doesn't even slow down traffic any more than another car would.

Using the center of the lane as a default position can be very helpful. It's easier to move right when it's safe to allow a pass than it is to butt back into traffic at the last moment when you want to take the lane.

When a faster vehicle approaches you from behind, decide early on who's going to get there first and help make it so. Sometimes slightly speeding up (to discourage a late pass) or slowing down (to allow a safe pass) is very helpful in avoiding confusion on who will get there first.

Couple this with an outstretched left hand to discourage passing.

But be aware that some motorists will pass none the less, irrelevant of your position, your signals, and their safety.

Take the lane at stop signs.

Reasons:

1) If you hug the curb at intersections when you intend to go straight, you will get right hooked eventually.

2) A car should not be passing you right before a stop sign. It is stupid and selfish. The amount of time they lose waiting behind you is less than the amount of time you will lose waiting for them.

3) Car drivers will be less confused at a 4-way stop if you are positioned in the middle of the lane. They will get that you are going straight and intend to take your turn according to standard ROW. If you hug the curb, they will not understand your intent, and will not give you your fair turn.

It is not an a-hole move. The a-hole move is passing someone immediately before an intersection.

A centered position at the stop sign also helps increase your visibility to other traffic at the intersection. If you're over on the right side, and there's a car in the lane just to your left, cars on the left side of the intersection, and left turners on the far side of the intersection, may not be aware of your presence (especially if the vehicle on your left is a large truck/SUV).

A centered position at the stop sign also helps increase your visibility to other traffic at the intersection. If you're over on the right side, and there's a car in the lane just to your left, cars on the left side of the intersection, and left turners on the far side of the intersection, may not be aware of your presence (especially if the vehicle on your left is a large truck/SUV).

One thing I think about when stopping at a busy cross street: corner cutters. Am I in a position where I will get run down if the crazed left-turners turning from the busy street onto my street fail to notice my existence.

Robert

Take the lane at stop signs.

Reasons:

1) If you hug the curb at intersections when you intend to go straight, you will get right hooked eventually.

2) A car should not be passing you right before a stop sign. It is stupid and selfish. The amount of time they lose waiting behind you is less than the amount of time you will lose waiting for them.

3) Car drivers will be less confused at a 4-way stop if you are positioned in the middle of the lane. They will get that you are going straight and intend to take your turn according to standard ROW. If you hug the curb, they will not understand your intent, and will not give you your fair turn.

It is not an a-hole move. The a-hole move is passing someone immediately before an intersection.

Gotta agree, but how do we convince motorists? I have even been passed in a right turn by a motorist that used the center thru only lane when I was in the right turn only lane.

Let me try to make that more clear... I was approaching a right turn that I wanted to make... I was centered in the RTOL to make that right turn. A motorist approached from behind and moved left into the center straight through lane. The light was red. I stopped at the red light to verify that I could make a safe right turn on red. The motorist went from the center lane on my street (from my left) into the right lane on the same street I was turning. I barely missed being right hooked by a right turning motorist illegally turning from a center lane.

Some motorists are a-holes. How you gonna stop them? No amount of proper positioning or hand signals are going to stop some motorists. Motorists that do this or other similar movements put us at risk as well as themselves. How are you going to stop them?

We all know you can't eliminate all the risk of motorists doing dangerous things that could hurt us. The best techniques will reduce these risks though.

Good point on the left turners cutting it short Robert.

I generally take the lane well before the upcoming stop, and always check behind me first. If it looks risky to move over, I'll let the nearest vehicle pass me, while signalling to the next of my intent to move - it almost always works perfectly.

There is one place it doesn't. A particularly nasty 5-way intersection consisting of entering traffic from various hills at various angles. It's horrible. Two fast lanes with right-of-way, no stops, I have to cross. I come up a very steep two-block hill to the stop at the top. Here, the road widens a bit and is unmarked; no lane markings, no stop line markings, nothing. Cars can and do pass me easily, even if I'm almost at the top. They are very aggressive most of the time so sometimes I reach the top without being able to move to the left - but because of the width of the roadway there, the cars often go to my left or right anyway to "beat" me even though I clearly reached the stop before they did, and clearly even when I signal. This just happened yesterday. I was to the left (I heard him coming too), he pulls up to my left, at least with his right turn signal on so I know what he was going to pull (often there's no turn signal on the car so it's my guess where they are heading). As soon as there was a break in traffic, his engine revs and I yell "HEY!" at him, he stops his right turn and I go. There's another crossing I could take but it's worse because I'd have to cross at an intersection in which cars turn right blindly.

The only other problem I've had is when I'm coming to a full stop at a stop sign, yielding to oncoming traffic with no stop. Car behind me honks at me while I'm waiting for oncoming traffic to clear. Bejezus! I don't even turn around, just point at the stop sign for a few seconds. He got to point and gave me another short toot - friendlier this time.

I hold my line, which is never right at the curb or the edge of the road.

I tried to be a nice guy once and let a car that had been behind me for a while, pass at the intersection and the idiots behind her all tried to speed past me as I tried to hold a trackstand in the gravel. Never again.

Its been my experience that they will often do this, not so much to get past you but to get beside you so that they can take off from the sign without having to wait for you. The hazard for you is that often they want to turn right, which will pinch you into the curb. My philosophy has been that where you are going the same speed as traffic you take the lane, and when traffic is faster you ride on the right (but not dangerously close to the curb.). So, coming to a stop sign I often take the lane as a safety measure, and then once I am leaving the intersection I am courteous about providing room for the cars to pass.

In my Province it is illegal to pass or lane change immediatley before an intersection. The broken white lines between lanes become solid before the intersection to indicate this, so the car is in the wrong, and if you are taking the lane you should do it before the line becomes solid.


I think this is the best overall analysis. When I accelerate from a standing stop I am just as fast as the car behind me anyway, at least for a long enough period of time to get thru the intersection and edge back over to the right when it becomes prudent to do so.

roughstuff

why are you moving left at a stop sign? Either take the lane the whole time, or keep to the curb the whole time.

Rather short-sighted analysis, I'd have thought?

I use a combination of approaches, depending upon circumstance. Bear in mind that we ride/drive the left side of the road here in Aus.


First rule of thumb for me is that I choose routes carefully, to ensure the bulk of distance travelled is along more 'major' streets/roads. These often, but not always, have adequate cycling lanes at left, with one or more commonly two traffic lanes in each direction and central island. At intersections they'll have an additional 'turning lane' at centre on the approach to intersections. The configuration presents me with options depending upon traffic conditions.

If traffic is sparse enough for me to easily and safely move toi the turning lane when I need to turn I do so, and take that lane. I've not had a driver disrespect my right to do so.
If traffic is too hectic for that move to be made easily and safely then the fact that I am on a bicycle rather than in a vehicle makes it rather easy for me to use a 'hook turn', which means remaining left and timing the light changes (or traffic flow) to negotiate the intersection. Cross the intersection with traffic flow, pause at the turn point, cross the remainder of the intersection in the direction of turn again with traffic flow.
In the rare circumstance that traffic is simply too insane for either of these there are pedestrian provisions. I'm happy to use the advantages my bike gives me!


We also very frequently have 'roundabouts' at intersections. Where these are two or more lanes and I'm headed straight through then 'keep left' is the sensible and safe option. If it's a major roundabout/intersection involving highway/major road with heavy traffic and I need to turn, then there's no option. Being there on a bike is a dopey thing to do, and the turn should be made elsewhere in a safer/more sensible place.
Many roundabouts, though, are one lane per direction obstacles in two lane per direction thoroughfares, and for these 'take the lane' on the approach is the ONLY safe and sensible option. Keep the lane through the turn when turning, move left after take-off when riding through IF there is safe room to do so.




I adopt a similar approach when I have need to ride on lesser roads. Choose the tactic in accordance with traffic conditions, adopting the safest/most sensible approach for the circumstances. 'Take the lane' is a central guiding principle, but not a rigid one. The bicycle is a flexible means of transport. I never compromise safety in deviating from 'take the lane' but when circumstances render it safe for me to do so, I can deviate from the principle for purposes of utility or comfort.


Cycling is great! There's really no need to stuff it up with pedantically adhered to principles :)

Gotta agree, but how do we convince motorists? I have even been passed in a right turn by a motorist that used the center thru only lane when I was in the right turn only lane.

Let me try to make that more clear... I was approaching a right turn that I wanted to make... I was centered in the RTOL to make that right turn. A motorist approached from behind and moved left into the center straight through lane. The light was red. I stopped at the red light to verify that I could make a safe right turn on red. The motorist went from the center lane on my street (from my left) into the right lane on the same street I was turning. I barely missed being right hooked by a right turning motorist illegally turning from a center lane.

Some motorists are a-holes. How you gonna stop them? No amount of proper positioning or hand signals are going to stop some motorists. Motorists that do this or other similar movements put us at risk as well as themselves. How are you going to stop them?

You can't stop them...but, you can yell at them, and "signal" that their actions were inappropriate.

The raised center digit works well to convey that message. You can also hit or kick their vehicle if it gets too close, though that can be a tricky manuever.

Take control of the lane before reaching the intersection. If Moron Cager feels the need to change lanes and pass before reaching the stop sign...well there's not much you can do about him wanting to be in the wrong lane when you reach the intersection.

Approaching a stop, I don't slow any sooner to let some pinhead back into the lane than I would in preparation to stop for the sign.

And yes, I have trapped cagers in the wrong lane before. They look pretty silly sitting there blocking the left lane while a motorist from the cross-street is trying to turn into that lane.:lol:

Your wife is wrong. It's not about being an A-hole. It's about cyclist safety. Control the lane on approaching the intersection and you are not inviting getting right hooked.

You can't stop them...but, you can yell at them, and "signal" that their actions were inappropriate.

The raised center digit works well to convey that message. You can also hit or kick their vehicle if it gets too close, though that can be a tricky manuever.

Oh I have been "conveying messages" for well over 20 years... even handing out actual fliers listing the laws. Just too many of them and too few of us. It's getting old. That center digit thing doesn't seem to make a difference either. :rolleyes:

And yes, I have trapped cagers in the wrong lane before. They look pretty silly sitting there blocking the left lane while a motorist from the cross-street is trying to turn into that lane.:lol:

I try not to be a vindictive person, but I do take complete and utter delight whenever I see a cager pegged in such a fashion. It'll likely stick in their mind for future reference too.

-Kurt

The "center digit" doesn't make a difference anymore? My town didn't get the memo! Still means plenty HERE!

Circumstances dictate what I do at an intersection; wide lanes, enough for us to be side-by-side, I'll be over, like I should be. Regular lanes, I'm in the right-tire line of the lane, and if it's a two-lane with curbs, I'll drift center on purpose when traffic is oncoming, just keep from getting squeezed from behind. Especially over the last year, drivers have lost a fair bit of aggression, seeming to accept my presence on the road. While I have been known to go "guerrilla" on my rides --sidewalks, alleys, whatever -- if the road is the way to go, I'm there.

BTW -- your wife is wrong, tell her I SAID SO -- but you didn't handle that situation well either, guy.

You should take the lane.

Claim your lane. 100ft before the stop.

Honestly, I don't let it ruin my ride. Anger is never the solution.

I'm probably going to look like a wimp to a lot of people in this forum for saying this, but I don't like having a car slowly pacing behind me. It's much harder to see him/her and if they get angry they will probably just gun the engine and buzz past you when they can. If I slowing and coming to a stop anyway I'll probably let them pass and look for any turn signal they might use, and then I don't have to deal with them anymore.

Very often, commercial DL holders (semis, delivery vehicles, school buses etc) will *very* carefully pace me, giving me plenty of room on narrow streets. They tend to be very careful about passing as well. I really appreciate it, since most smaller vehicles won't try to pass them. Other drivers will sometimes do the same thing. It's much less common, but it does happen.

Not *every* driver is going to blow their top because there's a cyclist going 10mph in front of them. I really appreciate the courtesy and patience when I get it... often it can turn a rough day of errands into a good day :).

(and yes, I run into lots of careless drivers as well. focusing on the careless ones just puts me out of temper and makes *me* more careless.)

I had my first honk the other day. Some college kid wanted me to run the light so he could turn right on red.

Usually, I take the lane or position myself left if I know ahead of time that the person behind me wants to turn right.

In this case, though, the college kid was trying to intimidate me and floored it as I was moving over, so I moved back right.

He lost because he could have turned had he let me do my thing and give him room. I still got honked at, though. It was a bad idea on his part; in the area we were in, I was probably the only cyclist that wouldn't put a hole in his window after that.

You were right and also wrong in the situation you described, as I can tell.

The lane is yours, and before the intersection, claim taken, and space allowed to provide your wife (riding partner) room to stay group with you.

The dart into the lane for claiming, likely forced her to be then separated from you increasing both of your chances for harm. As described in prior reply, the family 4 group handle correctly, first and last rider take the lane, only if safe to do so. When I rode with my children, I always took the last position for that reason, and to monitor their progress and remind them to avoid drifting left to far if not required.

At busy intersections, it can be a pain, I taught kids, to utilize the cross walk, resume ride on other side after light changed, provided ample spacing for resume of ride and return to pace. Caution yet required for right turn drivers, but again they are now behind me.

Technically your wife is wrong, but from her advantage point, you were wrong, and if your wife is like mind, she has your interest and safety in mind when she made the observation.

Regardless, right or wrong, the biggest vehicle will win the confrontation, so yielding is not sign of weakness, just self-preservation.

Respectfully.

Moving to the left is the right step. I do it, and it's really funny when the driver still tries to pass and ends up at the stop sign in the wrong lane.

It's even funner when someone on the cross street turns when said driver is wrong side of the lane and have a face off.

it's pretty clearly an A-hole move. sorry. :)

One hand I don't disagree with you but the reason why cyclists need to do this for their safety is because of A-hole drivers. That's life... be a A-hole and get more A-holes as a result.

I take the lane - so I'm not in the way if a car behind me wants to go right. And if i'm riding at the same speed as traffic, i STAY in the lane, no reason to be far to the right if the car behind won't make faster progress by passing.

this is one of my biggest annoyances while out riding. I'm approaching a stopsign and a motorist tries to beat me to it...like within the last 10-20 yards before the intersection they think they just HAVE to get by me. Is it a bad move on my part to move left to avoid being crowded at the stop sign? Do they really know what they are doing?

My wife and I had this debate. I start moving left to take the lane to assert my right to be there. She says it's an A-hole move on my part. I said if it were a motorcycle approaching a stop sign they damn sure wouldn't pull the same move. But she got me thinking....and now I feel like an A-hole...
Don't feel like an a-hole. You're wife just doesn't know what it's like. You are just asserting yourself. Motorists who cut off cyclists are acting improperly.

Just be careful not to let the adrenaline cause you to challenge a dumb motorist. ;)