In Juneau, Alaska, after an avalanche recently knocked out some long distance electric transmission lines, electricity now costs almost 5 times as much as it did, because it's provided by expensive-to-run Diesel generators.
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/390413.html
You can see why people would find it easier to air-dry their clothes than to pay for electric drying!
If we care about the carbon emissions coming from the countries that are the biggest culprits, we should not only be rooting for a 5-fold increase in motor fuel prices but a 5-fold increase in electricity prices in industrialized countries.
I suspect seeing the price change by somewhere between 2 to 5 times is the point at which you'll see really obvious changes in behavior. Increases by 35% (as suggested by these "x dollars per gallon" threads that pop up sometimes) often result in people just paying the extra cost.
sykerocker
05-10-08, 12:04 PM
In other words, dumping our currently comfortable way of life for something approaching a Third World nation is a good thing.
If that's true, then why are residents of Third World nations trying to reach an American way of life?
gerv
05-10-08, 12:44 PM
In other words, dumping our currently comfortable way of life for something approaching a Third World nation is a good thing.
If that's true, then why are residents of Third World nations trying to reach an American way of life?
I have a pretty comfortable life-style, but I also do a number of things that you might consider "third-world". I hang clothes outside or inside during the winter. I turn the lights off when not in use. I try not to waste hot water.
None of these energy-saving measures really impact my lifestyle much and I think I would be quite comfortable even if the cost of a kilowatt of electricity doubled or tripled.
I don't think many so-called "third world" inhabitants are out to achieve the degree of resource waste that we see in the US.
donnamb
05-10-08, 12:53 PM
While lighthearted in places, this is an interesting thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=415476) (if you find the subject matter of this thread interesting).
patc
05-10-08, 01:02 PM
In other words, dumping our currently comfortable way of life for something approaching a Third World nation is a good thing.
If that's true, then why are residents of Third World nations trying to reach an American way of life?
Because Americans/so-called "first world" people don't have an exclusive patent on selfish, short-term thinking?
CommuterRun
05-11-08, 04:51 AM
Before electricity got that high, I wouldn't be on the 'net. In fact the computer would probably be gathering dust in the back of a closet. I would also go buy a couple more Coleman lanterns, and I would be doing more cooking in the yard over a campfire. We already use a clothesline, don't even own a drier, and never use the air-conditioner in the house.
Think about it, if your whole neighborhood cooked in the yard everyday. After a period of time, there wouldn't be any trees left, and the whole place would be a blanket of smoke.
I have seen areas in third-world nations like this. Where the people have moved on because there is no burnable vegetation left for cooking.
In other words, dumping our currently comfortable way of life for something approaching a Third World nation is a good thing.
If that's true, then why are residents of Third World nations trying to reach an American way of life?
Because people are intrinsically lazy, and the American way of life is comparatively easy and comfortable.
The thing about that is, the infrastructure found in the most developed nations, i.e. efficient farming practices, cheap electricity, natural gas, LP gas, clean drinking water, sewage and garbage disposal, etc., is the least environmentally destructive way to support large numbers of people. The further we try to get from supported living, the more people will take from the natural environment, destroying it in the process. The earth's human population level is way, way beyond the natural carrying capacity of the land.
maddyfish
05-11-08, 08:08 AM
LAst summer the power went out one nice warm sunny Friday afternoon and stayed off until Saturday morning. It went off while I was riding and I didn't know it until a person told me. All I had noticed was lots of kids outside with their parents playing, lots of grilling out, lots of wobbly new bikers on dusty old bikes, and general party like atmosphere. It was wonderful.
derath
05-11-08, 08:31 AM
Yea you guys have it all figured out. Let's skyrocket all energy prices until it hurts. Then lets see all of the city dwelling car free folks scratch their heads as they can't find jobs (all those city buildings go dark due to energy costs) and can't afford food (all that food that has to be shipped into stores that now costs lots more).
-D
cerewa
05-11-08, 08:47 AM
Yea you guys have it all figured out. Let's skyrocket all energy prices until it hurts. Then lets see all of the city dwelling car free folks scratch their heads as they can't find jobs (all those city buildings go dark due to energy costs) and can't afford food (all that food that has to be shipped into stores that now costs lots more).
... or is it that you have it all figured out, and that what we actually need to do is let people pollute as much as they want, because high gas prices (like in europe) would ruin America and providing effective economic incentives to air-dry your clothes, ride public transit, transport freight on trains, support local producers of food and other goods, etc... just doesn't make sense
?
t-star
05-11-08, 08:58 AM
without trying to sound simplistic, there's nothing in ak that a wind generator or few and batteries wouldn't fix- , with solar as a secondary- we have quite a few farms that its too expensive to run lines into , and cells. wind and solar provide electricity into- these people also have digesters and generate their own methane for heat and gas for the tractors- worse comes to worse, there's nothing like using cow dung for a fire- dry, of course- that's what the folding shovel in the backpack is for
derath
05-11-08, 11:40 AM
... or is it that you have it all figured out, and that what we actually need to do is let people pollute as much as they want, because high gas prices (like in europe) would ruin America and providing effective economic incentives to air-dry your clothes, ride public transit, transport freight on trains, support local producers of food and other goods, etc... just doesn't make sense
?
I certainly don't have it figured out. But then again "I" am not the one who came up with this wonderful solution.
Sure I agree that this country wastes electricity (well just about everything). But just jacking the price and letting the chips fall where they may doesn't help anyone, including you. Do you think you would somehow be immune since you are already an extra enlightened car free human?
Take for example, local farmers. Sure it sounds nice to support local farmers. And I don't know where you live, but where I do many of the local farmers have already sold out to developers. So instead of local farms, I now have Mcmansions in those places. So first there would have to be a resurgence of land for farming (trust me I would love nothing more than to see these abominations bulldozed and the land given back to farmers).
Also, have you looking into the electrical cost of computing? Do you have any idea what a typical datacenter burns in electricity? It is mind boggling. First you have tons of electricity to power all of the computers and equipment. Then you have even more used to run massive air conditioners to get rid of the heat generated. All so we can buy stuff online, surf and post on sites such as BF.net etc.
So I am not disagreeing that increased energy costs can be a good thing. It is inevitable anyhow. But I don't agree that the solution is to just jack everything as high as possible overnight and let the chips fall where they may.
By the way I support the most local farmer out there, ME. My family gets 75% of our vegetables from our own garden. And my kids love vegetables that frankly I never even heard of until i was an adult. 100% organic as well.
-D
derath
05-11-08, 11:40 AM
without trying to sound simplistic, there's nothing in ak that a wind generator or few and batteries wouldn't fix- , with solar as a secondary- we have quite a few farms that its too expensive to run lines into , and cells. wind and solar provide electricity into- these people also have digesters and generate their own methane for heat and gas for the tractors- worse comes to worse, there's nothing like using cow dung for a fire- dry, of course- that's what the folding shovel in the backpack is for
They would need some major batteries for those long winter months without any sunlight...
Have any idea what would likely happen to most wind generators in an alaskan winter storm? The maintenance costs would likely outweigh their benefit.
The bottom line is that probably we shouldn't have so many people living in such places. Think of how many people would live in these extreme environments if we didn't put in place the kinds of amenities they have now. How many fewer people would live in say, Florida, if there was no such thing as air conditioning.
FXjohn
05-11-08, 11:46 AM
Ijack everything as high as possible overnight and let the chips fall where they may.
By the way I support the most local farmer out there, ME. My family gets 75% of our vegetables from our own garden. And my kids love vegetables that frankly I never even heard of until i was an adult. 100% organic as well.
-D
you must have a HUGE garden and do a lot of canning. or you own a gigantic deep freeze.
derath
05-11-08, 12:51 PM
you must have a HUGE garden and do a lot of canning. or you own a gigantic deep freeze.
Nope, not huge. Well maybe depending on what people consider large. It is about 14'x18'. I garden using a method called "Square foot gardening" (excellent book) which is basically a modification of the French intensive method.
We do can a fair amount. Freeze some. I also do a number of things to not only extend the growing season (cold frames etc) as well as methods to extend the harvest. (many root crops can be baled over which keeps them good throughout the winter months. They don't grow anymore but can be effectively "stored" in the ground until needed)
In addition to that garden, I have a strip at the edge of the yard that has Asparagus (AWESOME CROP) and a strawberry patch.
Now maybe I am a little off, as I have never calculated it. So maybe it is only 70%. Either way it is a LOT. I would say from late march until October/November we buy almost no vegetable produce.
-D
-D
cerewa
05-11-08, 02:36 PM
But I don't agree that the solution is to just jack everything as high as possible overnight and let the chips fall where they may.
Cool! Neither do I! I am in favor of gradually increasing the financial incentives for people to reduce fossil-fuel use until they are in line with what mainstream climate-science and economics suggest will produce the best results for people overall. That'll hurt industries that depend on cheap fossil fuels and at the same time create jobs working on efficient alternatives (trains, wind power, insulated homes, whatever).
I am not in favor of doing nothing, and letting the chips fall where they may.
I certainly don't have it figured out. But then again "I" am not the one who came up with this wonderful solution.
Are you willing to advocate any solution? Some people say that there is no CO2 emissions problem worth solving, whatsoever? I suppose some people think people acting out of the goodness of their hearts are gonna effectively manage CO2 emissions and dwindling fossil fuel supplies, so let's let them do it on their own. I think maybe neither of those groups includes you.
I am sincerely convinced that providing financial incentives to reduce CO2 emissions is the least hurtful way to reduce emissions - least hurtful to quality-of-life for middle class, wealthy, and poor people, in any country. I am also convinced that reducing emissions is a worthwhile goal.
By the way, that sounds really awesome, the home-grown produce. I have neither the land nor the know-how to grow so much good food.
cerewa
05-11-08, 02:48 PM
Have any idea what would likely happen to most wind generators in an alaskan winter storm? The maintenance costs would likely outweigh their benefit.
My friend who lives off-grid in Alaska in a mostly wind-powered house never mentioned that as a problem. As someone who lived in alaska most of my life, I don't think it's all that huge of an issue. You would just have to have a windmill that doesn't get the bottom of the blade circle filled with snow, and one that won't rust (which is as much a problem in rainy places as snowy places).
derath
05-11-08, 04:44 PM
Are you willing to advocate any solution?
You say that as if I am against everything. My only issue with your thread was the idea of a drastic overnight change. That is due to the fact that you posted an article about essentially that happening and then seemed to say that is what you would like to see happen.
A gradual change is good. In fact we are seeing it without any help. In fact I believe a large amount of change can happen naturally without any help. I am not necessarily in favor of big incentives. But at the same time I am not in favor of the dis-incentives already in place. We subsidize the wrong things all the time.
I would love to see the government double tax on fuel for example and offset it by lowering income taxes. (I am a big fan of consumption taxes vs income tax)
Heck my electricity prices have gone up significantly in the last year. All that happened is that the State removed the artificial subsidies that kept power prices down. Now they are naturally adjusting to what they should be. I guess I should be upset, but IMO the only reason it is a shock is because we haven't been paying the true costs for too long.
By the way, that sounds really awesome, the home-grown produce. I have neither the land nor the know-how to grow so much good food.
Yes it rocks. The best thing is that my kids enjoy their vegetables much more as a result. They get to pick things off the plant and eat stuff that I never would have as a kid (Imagine a 2 year old who begs for RAW asparagus direct from the ground)
And yes you could. Gardening doesn't take much know-how. This book (http://www.squarefootgardening.com/)provides an awesome start. IF you have nothing more than an apartment with a balcony that gets sun you can grow enough to provide a nice amount for one person. I helped some friends from church do exactly that. Built them a 4'x4' planter that allowed them to grow quite a bit. It is well worth the effort.
-D
t-star
05-12-08, 08:11 AM
They would need some major batteries for those long winter months without any sunlight...
Have any idea what would likely happen to most wind generators in an alaskan winter storm? The maintenance costs would likely outweigh their benefit.
The bottom line is that probably we shouldn't have so many people living in such places. Think of how many people would live in these extreme environments if we didn't put in place the kinds of amenities they have now. How many fewer people would live in say, Florida, if there was no such thing as air conditioning.
the wind/storm angle has already been adressed , it's been in europe for years, esp denmark- the batteries just need to be on a smaller scale, say on an individual building basis instead of a big- city infrastructure- or just "tailor " the needs to suit the power available- ie cut back when there is no source available- if ak is having all these problems with power, why aren't we hearing complaints out of places like whitehorse and yellowknife?- it's basically the same climate
Roody
05-12-08, 12:40 PM
Plan A. Keep on doing what we're doing until the earth is uninhabitable.
Plan B. Jack up energy prices so high and so fast that the world economy is thrown into a tailspin and millions of people die.
Plan C. Gradually increase taxes on carbon. Use the revenue (and the incentive of higher carbon prices) to develop alternative energy sources. At the same time, incentivize sane and gradual reductions in the use of energy and materials.
The only drawback to Plan C is that it must start very soon, and it must be a global effort.
wahoonc
05-12-08, 02:25 PM
I haven't had an electric bill exceed my house payment (no house payment:roflmao2: )
When I lived in the NE (Connecticut) my fuel oil bill was usually double the rent bill though:wtf: That only lasted for a single winter and I got out of there.
Aaron:)
BikeTales
05-12-08, 10:20 PM
My electricity DOES cost more than my rent! In the winter anyway. I didn't even turn the furnace on until after Christmas. for some reason though, my space heater is on right now :(