Road Cycling - Titanium Frames

If a titanium bike frame got damaged in a crash, how difficult would it be for it to be repaired by a frame builder? I'm talkin' damage like a tweaked out rear triangle or broken seat or chain stays.

This is a very general question, because I'm thinking of getting custom fitted for a new frame and I'm going back and forth between steel and Ti.

I know for sure, steel can be repaired, but rust is a concern for me as I sweat a lot. Plus, it gives a smooth ride.

On the other hand, Ti frames don't rust and are ultralight, but are verrrrrry expensive.

Comments anyone?

I think Titanium is very reparable, but not as compared to steel. If your worried about like damaging a chainstay, may go for the steel.

Steel won't rust unless you chip the paint and don't repair it. Sweating on it won't matter in the least. Also, titanium isn't uber-light. If you want really light, you'd be better with carbon. That said, I have a titanium frame and absolutely love the feel of it. It's super-responsive and has a great feel. Also, titanium deals with repetitive stress better than steel or aluminum, and is less brittle (less chance of cracking in the first place). Plus, unpainted ti just looks sweet!

I think Titanium is very reparable, but not as compared to steel.

The thing is, though, that welding ti requires skill/equipment that is not readily available (there are more qualified steel doctors around). But then I wouldn’t worry too much about breaking the frame. It is usually the stuff and the rider on it that suffers in crashes...

Are you sure you need to be custom fitted, jedi_rider?

There is a Ti shop in Seatle who publish their Ti and steel repair charges on the web. You will have to search around, but its not hard to google it up.

Lots of great advice above, but here is another angle. I've crashed 3 times on my current Ti bike and though it's got some road rash on brakes the frame came away unscathed. Titainium is very tuff stuff! A Ti frame may withstand a bit more than steel.

The thing is, though, that welding ti requires skill/equipment that is not readily available (there are more qualified steel doctors around). But then I wouldn’t worry too much about breaking the frame. It is usually the stuff and the rider on it that suffers in crashes...

Are you sure you need to be custom fitted, jedi_rider?

The reason why I bring up the custom-fit topic is because I'm thinking of having a frame made with S+S couplings to accomodate for less hassle of traveling with airlines. The GIANT TCR1 I currently ride right now seems to fit me just fine, but aluminum frames don't lend themselves to retrofitting with the couplers.

Steel won't rust unless you chip the paint and don't repair it. Sweating on it won't matter in the least. Also, titanium isn't uber-light. If you want really light, you'd be better with carbon. That said, I have a titanium frame and absolutely love the feel of it. It's super-responsive and has a great feel. Also, titanium deals with repetitive stress better than steel or aluminum, and is less brittle (less chance of cracking in the first place). Plus, unpainted ti just looks sweet!

I can't argue with the Ti look. I particularly like the brushed Ti look with some cool paint trims, like what Lightspeed has. And Ti material properties are above the rest.

For ride comfort, will steel always be more smooth than Ti? I know lots of factors are involved, like frame design and componentry, but what about overall?

It depends more on the design that the material. A lot more. But....titanium has more give than steel. The first Ti bikes were very shock absorbing. Most make them stiffer than that now; but they usually have a nice ride. With a good paint job and a dose of Frame Saver; a steel frame ought to last you 20 or 30 years.
With a quality frame made of either material, longevity is not really an issue.

Repairablity is the last thing I consider when I buy a bike. I think you need to buy a bike for the ride. I've crashed twice on my carbon bike and all the repair had to be done on me. Ti is a great material, but I would test ride as many bikes as I could before buying. And if you're going to have it built with S+S couplers consider one of these:

http://www.ritcheylogic.com

I saw one a Veloswap and it's pretty cool. $2,500 and you get the complete setup with Ultrgera and travel case. And Ritchey steel bikes are sweet to ride...I'm sure you could get it Dura Ace for more bucks. :)

S&S couplers are made in a limited number of sizes and
only for round tubes. So a Ti frame would have to conform to those limits. They are mostly used on steel frames. Steve

Do those S&S couplers inhibit the frame’s strength, stiffness, etc. in any way? I can see that they are practical when travelling, but are they really worth it?

Do those S&S couplers inhibit the frame’s strength, stiffness, etc. in any way? I can see that they are practical when travelling, but are they really worth it?

Feedback from numerous users and magazine reviews show that the coupler don't affect ride feedback or inhibit the frame's strength. I read somewhere where Greg Lemond retro-fitted on of his bikes for traveling overseas and he loves it. This keeps my skepticism to a minimum.

S&S couplers are made in a limited number of sizes and
only for round tubes. So a Ti frame would have to conform to those limits. They are mostly used on steel frames. Steve

So far, my choices for S+S coupler Ti frames are Davidson (in Seattle) and Roarke (somewhere in the mid-west?). I'm sure there are more out there, but I probably need to call them up to see if they are willing to do it (like Serotta).

Repairablity is the last thing I consider when I buy a bike. I think you need to buy a bike for the ride. I've crashed twice on my carbon bike and all the repair had to be done on me. Ti is a great material, but I would test ride as many bikes as I could before buying. And if you're going to have it built with S+S couplers consider one of these:

http://www.ritcheylogic.com

I saw one a Veloswap and it's pretty cool. $2,500 and you get the complete setup with Ultrgera and travel case. And Ritchey steel bikes are sweet to ride...I'm sure you could get it Dura Ace for more bucks. :)

I couldn't agree more with you. The ride is more important. I was thinking more in the long term for a bike that I would want to last---that's why my question for possible repairability.

It depends more on the design that the material. A lot more. But....titanium has more give than steel. The first Ti bikes were very shock absorbing. Most make them stiffer than that now; but they usually have a nice ride. With a good paint job and a dose of Frame Saver; a steel frame ought to last you 20 or 30 years.
With a quality frame made of either material, longevity is not really an issue.

What is "Frame Saver"?

Wax in solvent, which leaves a deposit on internal tube surfaces.

Yup,
http://www.schwabcycles.com/cgi/wc.dll?SCHWAB2~catalog~DETAIL~1697

If it's good enough for Independent fabrications, it's good enough for me...


"Maintenance of the Seat Tube on IF Steel Frames
As the steel alloys used in the making of high end bikes have improved in strength, fabricators have reduced the wall thickness of the tubes in order to save weight. This makes the tubes vulnerable to rust as there is less material to withstand the corrosion. All of the tubes in IF frames are sealed with the exception of the seat tube. We treat the inside of the seat tube with, "J. P. Weigle's FRAME SAVER", prior to shipping the frame to you. This is not a permanent method of corrosion prevention, however, and it should be renewed periodically.

Moisture can and does get into the seat tube of our frames during normal riding or the transportation on car racks. This has produced two kinds of preventable problems.

Surface corrosion between the seat tube and the seat post can "freeze" the seat post in the seat tube, making removal of the seat post difficult and making proper maintenance impossible. In a few cases, damage has been done to the seat tube in the process of trying to extricate the seat post.
In an extreme case, where the seat tube was exposed repeatedly to water and not properly maintained, the seat tube corroded to the point that it acquired pin holes through the metal."

It depends more on the design that the material. A lot more. But....titanium has more give than steel. The first Ti bikes were very shock absorbing. Most make them stiffer than that now; but they usually have a nice ride. With a good paint job and a dose of Frame Saver; a steel frame ought to last you 20 or 30 years.
With a quality frame made of either material, longevity is not really an issue.

Steel frames will last a lot longer than 20 or 30 years. My main ride is steel and now has over 100,000 miles on it and its 20 years old with no rust or fatigue issues. Sheldon Brown still commutes on some sort of bike (Franklin?) made in the early 1900's, probably made of steel gas pipe and it sure isn't rusting away on him.

Hi Froze,
certainly, my first bike was a 20 year old hand me down that still worked when I sold it in the 70's. It was over forty yeats old at that point. I didn't want people to think I was handing them a line.
I do think upkeep is more important with the new thin tubing they make; which is why I pasted that bit from IF.

Independent Fabrications (http://ifbikes.com/) out of Sommerville, MA will put S&S couplings on any frame they make.

I know for sure, steel can be repaired ... Plus, it gives a smooth ride.

On the other hand, Ti frames don't rust and are ultralight, but are verrrrrry expensive.

Comments anyone?

I don't know about how difficult it would be to repair but I can speak to these two concerns you raise.

I just got my Ti frame bike and I LOVE it. I was riding a chromoly frame bike before I got this one and the difference is night and day.

I find my Ti frame to be at least as smooth (probably more smooth and way more responsive) a ride as my chromo frame. I have carbon forks and carbon seat stem on the Ti bike and that quiets down most of the road chatter.

Also, I didn't break the bank to buy it. Getaway Bikes has them, with carbon forks (no headset), for $699.00. The frame itself is 3.4 lbs. If you want to check it out here's a link for you. Ti Frame (http://www.getawaybikes.com/Detail.cfm?Categoryid=128&BrandID=9&ProductID=848&CFID=3318897&CFTOKEN=5306083)

The frame has a 25 year warranty.

Titanium is no more difficult to work with or repair than any other metal. The tools required to cut, shape and form Titanium are very specialized and are expensive. If you have your frame built by good fabricator, repairs will not be a problem.

Here is an interesting chart concerning titanium, pay close attention to the charts titled "Strength to Weight", and "Tubing Strength".

http://www.titaniumsports.com/alloycharts.html

Titanium frames can be more expensive that an Aluminum or steel frames. The tooling process is much more difficult when working with Ti. Keep in mind that titanium itself is not an expensive material.

With that said I feel that the "Big Three" of titanium bikes (Litespeed, Merlin, and Seven) are charging WAY too much money for their frames. Do you homework and you can find a Ti frame for much less than these guys are charging. As a former Litespeed rider I can tell you that my new Dean El Dentie is in every way as finely built as any Litespeed, Merlin, or Seven the only difference is the price. We are not talking about a few bucks less, this is a hand built frame which is made to order for a couple hundred dollars less than a comparable frame from the "Big Three".

go for titanium. I have a merlin titanium and i have crash tons of times. Breaking wheels, handlebars and GETTING SOME serious road rash, but as for my frame. Its still in great shape. It Looks as new as the day I got it.

go for titanium. I have a merlin titanium and i have crash tons of times. Breaking wheels, handlebars and GETTING SOME serious road rash, but as for my frame. Its still in great shape. It Looks as new as the day I got it.

If you are one that crashes often, or if you are thinking about racing criteriums, then go with Ti. Not many people can afford to have spare bikes while waiting for the cracked carbon frame being fixed somwhere.

On the other hand, if you're a recreational rider, consider a good carbon bike.

Cheers

Thanks for all the recommendations everyone. It looks like I'll setlle for a Ti frame. Now it just becomes a matter of who get it from...aaarrrrggghhhh...so many choices.

By the way, does anyone who rides Ti frames recommend the Ti/Carbon combination...or just go for complete Ti? I'm just wondering.

Thanks for all the recommendations everyone. It looks like I'll setlle for a Ti frame. Now it just becomes a matter of who get it from...aaarrrrggghhhh...so many choices.

By the way, does anyone who rides Ti frames recommend the Ti/Carbon combination...or just go for complete Ti? I'm just wondering.I don't think you have "settle" for a Ti frame. :rolleyes: I like complete Ti myself. Guess I'm just old school. If you've got the money to burn, why not "settle" for a Serotta Ottrott with an ST rear triangle and an F2 fork? (Check out the Serotta website) Add a full Record gruppo and the Bora wheels and you'll be about $10K lighter in the wallet.

I don't think you have "settle" for a Ti frame. :rolleyes: I like complete Ti myself. Guess I'm just old school. If you've got the money to burn, why not "settle" for a Serotta Ottrott with an ST rear triangle and an F2 fork? (Check out the Serotta website) Add a full Record gruppo and the Bora wheels and you'll be about $10K lighter in the wallet.

$10K lighter in the wallet. I wonder if that will help with my climbing!!! :D

I checked out that titaniumsports comparison between cromoly and Ti.

They are considering 4130Crmo, bog standard bike material of the kind found in low-end/starter road bikes, and comparing it to the material found on $600 FRAMES (no forks inc)
Compare the UTS (ksi) figures for different bike steels:
4130 cromo-----------------------118
Reynolds 525 cromo--------------100-130
Reynolds 725 heat treated cromo-157-186
Reynolds 853 heat-treated--------180-210
Ti 3-2.5----------------------------125

Ti manufacturers never compare their material to the very best Reynolds bike steel , because the steel is stronger and has a comparable strength/weight ratio.
Affordable, "low end" Ti frames rarely use butted tubing, so the weight saving is marginal over a fine steel frame of the same price.

Titanium frames can be more expensive that an Aluminum or steel frames. The tooling process is much more difficult when working with Ti. Keep in mind that titanium itself is not an expensive material.

With that said I feel that the "Big Three" of titanium bikes (Litespeed, Merlin, and Seven) are charging WAY too much money for their frames. Do you homework and you can find a Ti frame for much less than these guys are charging. As a former Litespeed rider I can tell you that my new Dean El Dentie is in every way as finely built as any Litespeed, Merlin, or Seven the only difference is the price. We are not talking about a few bucks less, this is a hand built frame which is made to order for a couple hundred dollars less than a comparable frame from the "Big Three".

I agree that there are many builders out there that will build you a fine ti ride for less money. don't be suckered into price=quality. I was riding with this guy on a seven and in his opinion, anything else out there doesn't even come close. I guess if you spend $8K on a bike, you have to believe that.

A friend of mine has a Dean and it looks like a really cool, and not just another big three ti. Other ti bikes: Guru, Davidson, Lemond, IF and many other local builders. If you really want to use the S+S coupler, I'm sure it will be a custom project. good luck.

If you are one that crashes often, or if you are thinking about racing criteriums, then go with Ti. Not many people can afford to have spare bikes while waiting for the cracked carbon frame being fixed somwhere.

On the other hand, if you're a recreational rider, consider a good carbon bike.

Cheers

I don't enter races, but I do try to hammer hard on my rides. Once or twice a week, I join a bunch of local racers and ex-racers, too. I get left in the dust, but hey, it's a great workout.

So I can see why the fatigue properties of Ti would benefit. A full carbon bike never really appealed for some reason. I'd consider a mix Ti-Carbon bike though.

If a titanium bike frame got damaged in a crash, how difficult would it be for it to be reapaired by a frame builder. I'm talkin' damage like a tweaked out rear triangle or broken seat or chain stays.

This is a very general question, because I'm thinking of getting custom fitted for for a new frame and I'm going back and forth between steel and Ti.

I know for sure, steel can be repaired, but rust is a concern for me as I sweat a lot. Plut, it gives a smooth ride.

On the other hand, Ti frames don't rust and are ultralight, but are verrrrrry expensive.

Comments anyone?

1. If you actually break a titanium seat or chain stay, I would be impressed.

2. When people say Titanium can be repaired, have they considered just how many frame makers have the equipment to weld titanium?

I just finished straightening a Ti frame myself. It wasn't that hard. The rear triangle needed just a tiny shift. The derailleur hanger was very bent. It is all back to original specs now and at least visually as good as new. I have no idea if it will fall apart down the road - I really don't - but I found it about the same as steel to bend and I'm going to ride it.

I recently got a IF ti Crown Jewell and it rides like a magic capet. My last bike was a Cannondale so the difference between the two is significant. Got mine with a 3/4 paint job so I could also enjoy the look of at least some nekid ti. This bike is a work of art in terms of the way it was constructed. Came in a bit heavy though at 3 1/2 lbs. Im 175 lbs and mash quite a bit. Ti is generally a flexy material and this bike was constructed so that I cannot notice any flex whatsoever. Wish it was lighter but again, it rides great. Not quite at responsive as the Cannondale but hey, them C'dale's are fast vehicles. It should last forever. --Whitemax

Like this?

I don't know how long you have been riding but DEAN IS one of the original Ti pioneers. We were selling Ti Deans in the mid 90's when I was a shop rat in grad school. They have stayed a smaller company but their quality is top notch. I've comapired with friends sevens, merlins, and roarks and I'd still take the welds and quality of my vador. Wait times can be pretty long but if they have your size in stock it could be at your door in a week.

JR

I've got a friend who was hit by a car (car was doing about 30, how he survived I don't know). His carbon fork was disintigrated, his wheels were shattered, bars were mangled, the frame, a ti Serotta, was straight as an arrow and unscathed. He took it to a shop to rebuild and they too were amazed at how perfect the frame was. The front of the bike took most of the impact and he rolled onto the hood and up and over the windshield. Go with titanium if you want, w/ no worries. If you buy a well built ti frame it will last and last.

Repairablity is the last thing I consider when I buy a bike. I think you need to buy a bike for the ride. I've crashed twice on my carbon bike and all the repair had to be done on me. Ti is a great material, but I would test ride as many bikes as I could before buying. And if you're going to have it built with S+S couplers consider one of these:

http://www.ritcheylogic.com

I saw one a Veloswap and it's pretty cool. $2,500 and you get the complete setup with Ultrgera and travel case. And Ritchey steel bikes are sweet to ride...I'm sure you could get it Dura Ace for more bucks. :)

I have had a 2005 steel BreakAway since May. I bought a frame from GVH Bikes and had them build it with Campagnolo Centaur and Proton wheels. If you buy the complete bike as assembled by Ritchey the only choice is Ultegra 9 (may be 10 by now). Ritchey has aslo recently introduced a Ti and carbon version that is built with Dura-Ace or available as a frame/fork. Check www.gvhbikes.com

Titanium is repairable for sure. But as its more difficult to work with, you'd generally have to send it back to the original frame builder, which would prolly work out more than taking it to your local frame builder.

On the value for money front, I kind of agree with wingsprint410, though I would add that Seven to me offer a little better vfm as they chuck in custom fit and build and finer finishing (in my opinion, anyway) for roughly the same price as merlin/litespeed. I'm biased though as I have a Seven Alaris.

Like this?

I don't know how long you have been riding but DEAN IS one of the original Ti pioneers. We were selling Ti Deans in the mid 90's when I was a shop rat in grad school. They have stayed a smaller company but their quality is top notch. I've comapired with friends sevens, merlins, and roarks and I'd still take the welds and quality of my vador. Wait times can be pretty long but if they have your size in stock it could be at your door in a week.

JR

Ram

Sweet ride!

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why anyone would go with carbon seat and/or chain stays. A fully ti bike will ride very smooth as it is. Since we are talking about a bike that will last and last, why risk having to screw around with a broken seat/chain stay in the event of a crash. I think it is more marketing than anything else. I would not pay extra for the carbon bits, doesn't make sense to me.

Go for the S&S couplers. They are commonly available on steel or titanium bikes. They can even be used on carbon bikes, if the builder is talented and creative (check out calfeedesign.com). Anyone who has the opportunity to ride both a Ritchey Breakaway and any bike with S&S BTC's would agree that the S&S system is much more solid.

It's really hard to go wrong with any super-high-end Ti or steel bike. You'll only pay about a 1lb penalty in weight for a fine steel frame, on average. For some people it's worth 1lb to ride a steel bike; other people feel losing that pound is worth the extra cost of Ti. For example I looked on Seven's website and they have the Axiom road bike in either Ti or steel. For 58cm size they list 4.16lbs for steel and 3.18lbs for Ti. Whether it's Al, Ti, or steel, do you really have to have a frame that weighs under 3 pounds? Just remember you can't get something for nothing...

use your insurance and get a new frame

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why anyone would go with carbon seat and/or chain stays. A fully ti bike will ride very smooth as it is. Since we are talking about a bike that will last and last, why risk having to screw around with a broken seat/chain stay in the event of a crash. I think it is more marketing than anything else. I would not pay extra for the carbon bits, doesn't make sense to me.

For the life of me I don't know why someone would make a blanket statement or an assumption without actually riding the bikes in question :rolleyes:

Rode full ti, rode ti with carbon inserts in seat stay, rode ti with full carbon rear. Same wheels, same seatpost, same brand, different ride. Full ti is smooth, Ti with carbon inserts even smoother. Full reynolds carbon rear, I didn't care for the ride (more muted). As for repairs, I think If I crashed that badly, I would have to send the bike back to the maker regardless of what material the stays are made of. Besides, the only full carbon bits on my frame are about 4 inches of seat stays 3/4 of them are Ti.
As for the other carbon, the top and seat tubes are externally butted Ti with a carbon wrap not carbon tubes.

I'm glad you wouldn't pony up for the carbon bits, I like to be exclusive :)

BTW: Sold my IF Ti Crown Jewel for the DEAN. The ride quality isn't even close.

Also don't forget that you can find some of the top end Ti frames deeply discounted if you are willing to buy (a new) one that is a year or more old. Searching on the web yields quite a few of these discounted frames. I got my Merlin that way from Excel in Boulder. I love it.

1. If you actually break a titanium seat or chain stay, I would be impressed.

2. When people say Titanium can be repaired, have they considered just how many frame makers have the equipment to weld titanium?

You'd better do some more research. Today most have the equipment to do it. Most of the better steel frame producers are purging when welding and that's the important part of welding Ti. My son rides a Ti frame that was repaired and you'd be hard pressed to ever find the spot. The repair was done by a shop in CO that welds all metals.

S&S couplers are great if you want the transportation advantages-round tubes required. Steel vs Ti Vs Carbon, Dean vs Merlin vs Litespeed vs seven vs IF vs moots....A ton of people are more than willing to praise theirs and slam the competition-fact is the bikes are that good for each owner-and very few folks are willing to say I spent XXX for this and it suxs. It also seems to be a sport to write stuff about how bad a Litespeed (no one does more with shaped ti tubes than Litespeed) or Trek etc are, when in reality, they make excellent machines. You need to see if there is a way you can try a few bikes to see what is best for YOU and then get it for you, set up the way you want it. FYI as state by others here-its tempting to get a new bike right now-lots of great sales on the 05 stuff-just make sure you confirm it can be retrofitted to S&S if that's what you want.

Agreed. I can't stress enough you need to test ride, test ride, and test ride until you find a bike that YOU like. Steel, Carbon, Ti, metal/carbon mixs, they will all feel and ride different from brand to brand. Don't get caught up on scare tactics from one camp to the next (we have been riding bonded alu/carbon and carbon/carbon forks for years now right?) just find a bike that fits, and has the road feel your looking for.

JR

Go for the S&S couplers. They are commonly available on steel or titanium bikes. They can even be used on carbon bikes, if the builder is talented and creative (check out calfeedesign.com). Anyone who has the opportunity to ride both a Ritchey Breakaway and any bike with S&S BTC's would agree that the S&S system is much more solid.


For the time being, Calfee is the only manufacturer in the world who is certified to use S&S couplers on a carbon frame. So far, there doesn't seem to be a rush by anyone else to do it. S&S has a list of framebuilders on their site who are qualified to build and/or retrofit existing steel or Ti bikes with the couplers. What that means is that if you buy a frame from someone who does not build with the couplers, you still have the possibility of having it reworked.

Funny thing about Ritchey vs S&S. People keep saying that they can feel the difference, but the magazine reports don't reflect that. To me there are 2 major differences.


Ritchey now has 4 models: steel road and cyclocross and Ti road and cyclocross. With S&S you have a much broader range of vendors, custom fitting, carbon, etc.
You need the S&S tool (which may be a standard spanner) to make the connections whereas Ritchey uses standard metric hex wrenches. Anyway, if you mislay the tools, it would be much easier to find hex wrenches.

Or you could get a Reynolds 953 frame. Neat stuff.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2005/shows/australia05/?id=results/australia051