Tactics?

[miljam]

I have a quick question as it relates to cornering & tactics. At a recent crit, a rider came up on my left side as we were approaching the second corner. About 2-3 meters before the turn his handlebars moved ahead of mind. I had the inside line near the curb. As we made the turn, he moved out of his line and cut the corner so hard that I was forced to either run into him or hit the brakes. Thank god I was near the back or he could have caused a big pileup behind him..Does this kind of thing happen alot in racing and is this an acceptable tactical move?

[asgelle]

About 2-3 meters before the turn his handlebars moved ahead of mind. I had the inside line near the curb. As we made the turn, he moved out of his line and cut the corner so hard that I was forced to either run into him or hit the brakes.

First, he didn't change his line, he took an outside/in line that clipped the apex. Pretty much standard cornering. Once his bars were in front of yours, he had control and you should have realized it. From that point on, you were at his mercy and had to watch out for him and adjust to his moves.

[NeelsGap86]

I'd have to say that tactics in cycling are starting to look more and more like chess moves. I'm still trying to figure things out :(

Keep riding.

[Crash716]

I have a quick question as it relates to cornering & tactics. At a recent crit, a rider came up on my left side as we were approaching the second corner. About 2-3 meters before the turn his handlebars moved ahead of mind. I had the inside line near the curb. As we made the turn, he moved out of his line and cut the corner so hard that I was forced to either run into him or hit the brakes. Thank god I was near the back or he could have caused a big pileup behind him..Does this kind of thing happen alot in racing and is this an acceptable tactical move?

rubbing is racing....get used to it or learn to block. you can also learn to ride really close to others and not lose much ground in those situations.

This is in no way saying that you can't ride but this happens allot, that's why the inside line is the prefered line until someone closes the door on you with a few corners to go, just keep an eye out for guys doing it and shut the door on them, you let him take it and he used it to slow you and others down.

[miljam]

rubbing is racing....get used to it or learn to block. you can also learn to ride really close to others and not lose much ground in those situations.

This is in no way saying that you can't ride but this happens allot, that's why the inside line is the prefered line until someone closes the door on you with a few corners to go, just keep an eye out for guys doing it and shut the door on them, you let him take it and he used it to slow you and others down.

Its all good and I'm obviously a total noob so the feedback is much appreciated.

[carpediemracing]

The rider who cut you off, if there was no one to his outside, and if it wasn't an absolutely critical part of the race, and wasn't near the front of the race, made a poor move.

However, as the guy on the inside, you had the option to move forward and physically take up the space the outside rider moved into (unless the rider in front of you did something odd it seems that there was a slight gap in front of you). If you had moved up and filled the gap, the outside rider could not have made the poor move because he'd have to hit you, and that would be an even poorer move.

If you don't move up and you leave a gap in front of you, expect someone to come in and fill it.

Since you point out that you were near the back of the field, such a "cut off" move was probably completely unnecessary. If that's the case, that other rider was riding carelessly or ignorantly. Both are dangerous.

Normally, if in a field, you follow imaginary lanes through a turn. You were in the right "lane", he was apparently in the next lane over. He moved over without a good reason. That's when someone might say "Hold your line", i.e. hold your lane. The exceptions are when it gets really heated *and* the riders tend to know what's going on. Then sometimes you see some movement mid turn, but it is rarely something that causes other riders to brake or swerve. Good, clean movement means a rider takes an open spot, not pushes his way into half a spot. Even in very tight quarters in the last lap of a crit near the front a rider should not have to force his way into a spot. There are many other ways of taking a spot.

You should never, ever need to contact another rider. Any such contact should be accidental or a last desperate move to avoid a crash. I've never, ever intentionally contacted another rider except in drills to practice for any accidental contact or to say hi or something.

An example of such "emergency contact" would be that sequence of pictures where a guy forgets to look up while he's sprinting and he ends up literally hugging the guy next to him at 40 mph to keep from going down. I don't practice that move but you get the point.

In this scenario you were not at fault in any way. However, in the future, I'd recommend trying to keep your bars in front of the bars of those to your outside. This will prevent you from having to worry about the problem.

Some ideas along this line:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/08/tactics-sphere-and-three-scenarios.html
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2008/05/racing-worrying-about-crashing.html
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2008/01/tactics-subtle-vs-obvious.html
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/05/how-to-group-riding-mentality.html

hope this helps,
cdr

[Crash716]

this does happen allot in the younger/lower cats...guys use their momentum to pass and end up cutting you off....like CDR said...probably end of race desperation or just plain stupidity...but you need to learn to shut those down on both the inside and outside. the more you race the more you'll realize that the guys on the inside are more dangerous cause they can drift up to ya, or at least that's my feelings. I have lost several places in the 5's by not guarding the inside, you'll learn....just keep it rubber side down and try to guard that front wheel.

[EventServices]

If you don't move up and you leave a gap in front of you, expect someone to come in and fill it.

cdr

I can't top this.

The rest of his post is also sound.

[miljam]

This helps a bunch. I was near the tail end of the field and there was a lot of space between riders. My gut feeling was telling me that this guy was making a poor move, but what can you do its gonna happen. For the record, I'm turning 35 this year, I'm fat, short, slow on the bike, and I love cycling. I lasted just 3 laps in the cat5 race before I blew up. I understand what I need to do improve. That race was my first and I'm looking forward to the next one..

:giver:

[Crash716]

This helps a bunch. I was near the tail end of the field and there was a lot of space between riders. My gut feeling was telling me that this guy was making a poor move, but what can you do its gonna happen. For the record, I'm turning 35 this year, I'm fat, short, slow on the bike, and I love cycling. I lasted just 3 laps in the cat5 race before I blew up. I understand what I need to do improve. That race was my first and I'm looking forward to the next one..
:giver:

awesome attitude dude...too many guys i know are plenty fast enough to hold on and don't and want to quit...the important thing is to try to learn something from every single race. If you do that you'll be going for top 10's then 5's and podiums to follow...just go out there and have fun.:thumb:

[seppomadness]

I can't top this.

The rest of his post is also sound.

Lol. Thats what I was going to say. I liked that succinct sentence also.

[Snuffleupagus]

You can turn it around on others as well - at first focus on getting your hips in front of the other guy's bars and then slowly moving onto the wheel he's drafting, or in front of him. SLOWLY. It shouldn't throw off the rest of the field, and he shouldn't be put into difficulty. You'll just sort of move him over. This works especially well in the 4s/5s where guys aren't going to know how to respond to it.

After you're comfortable doing that, all you really need to do is get your bars an inch or two forward of his, and then gradually move onto the wheel you want. If he doesn't want to move over, you can slow a little bit while staying close to him in order to maintain control, and open up a slightly bigger gap - that you can then fill.

No contact required.

[wanders]

You can turn it around on others as well - at first focus on getting your hips in front of the other guy's bars and then slowly moving onto the wheel he's drafting, or in front of him. SLOWLY. It shouldn't throw off the rest of the field, and he shouldn't be put into difficulty. You'll just sort of move him over. This works especially well in the 4s/5s where guys aren't going to know how to respond to it.

After you're comfortable doing that, all you really need to do is get your bars an inch or two forward of his, and then gradually move onto the wheel you want. If he doesn't want to move over, you can slow a little bit while staying close to him in order to maintain control, and open up a slightly bigger gap - that you can then fill.

No contact required.

How do you counter this is if is done to you?

[DrWJODonnell]

How do you counter this is if is done to you?

I always put a hand on the hip and "remind" them that I am there. Gentle. They were trying to be sneaky. I am trying to be sneaky.

[Creakyknees]

Yep, and if that doesn't stop him from coming over, a little more pressure on the hip, will.

(cue the flame war about touching / pushing riders)

.

[asgelle]

How do you counter this is if is done to you?

You don't. If someone is ahead of you, and there is a gap in front of your front wheel, they can move over and fill the gap. Putting a hand out and pushing might discourage them, but if they want to fill the gap, they can. The way to counter it is to stay close to the wheel ahead of you so there's no gap.

[bdcheung]

This works especially well in the 4s/5s where guys aren't going to know how to respond to it.

How do you respond to it? If I see some guy trying to scoot in and take my wheel, my first instinct is to put a hand on his hip to let him know 1) I'm aware of his intention; and 2) I don't want to let him in.

Is this wrong?

[botto]

How do you counter this is if is done to you?

i've been known to stick my arm out, clothesline style, to let the guy who's trying to nudge me out of the way, to back off.

there is no contact. it's nothing more than a not so subtle signal.

it's also pretty stupid, and i reserve it for moments when adrenaline has the better of me, and for riders who i dislike.

http://m.pimpmyspace.org/07/4/10/9131kx.gif

[bdcheung]

what's with the campfire?

[botto]

what's with the campfire?

waiting for the flames.

[merlinextraligh]

How do you counter this is if is done to you?

See the line from CDR's post highlighted above.

You don't let any room form for them to get ahead of you.

Flaring you elbows a little taking up space, and just not moving when the feign into you helps also.

If you let people know you're not going to cower, they usually go pick on somebody else.

[wanders]

The local crit course has a chicane going left, then right about 200 yards after a pretty tight left turn. After the turn, I will pull up even with whoever is following a wheel I want. It puts me in the wind for a short period, but as the first part of the chicane comes up, the wheel I want almost always starts to drift left, boom - my wheel. If I were the guy beside me from whom I took the wheel, what could I do? I/he is now stuck in the wind. This is cat 5 of course so we are all hapless dougalls.

[merlinextraligh]

You don't. If someone is ahead of you, and there is a gap in front of your front wheel, they can move over and fill the gap. Putting a hand out and pushing might discourage them, but if they want to fill the gap, they can. The way to counter it is to stay close to the wheel ahead of you so there's no gap.

I agree with this. If you've let a gap form, and the other rider has gotten ahead of you, you let him in.

If, however, they're just trying to force you off the wheel your on, I'll physically fight for that position. All that takes is letting them know you're not moving, and if they come over they're just going to bounce off when they bump you.

[asgelle]

If, however, they're just trying to force you off the wheel your on, I'll physically fight for that position. All that takes is letting them know you're not moving, and if they come over they're just going to bounce off when they bump you.

Absolutely. If the other rider is not ahead, there's no way they should be able to take the wheel. I saw this first hand in a mixed Masters 3/4, Womens 1,2,3 race a few years ago. A new masters racer ~160 lbs tried to push a woman, ~115 lbs, off a wheel going so far as putting his hand on her hip and trying to shove her over. She was racing the NRC circuit at the time, and I just sat behind them and laughed as she didn't say anything but didn't budge an inch.

[aggro_jo]

All that takes is letting them know you're not moving, and if they come over they're just going to bounce off when they bump you.

yup. I love the dudes that scream "INSIDE" when the try to dive the corner when everyone else is taking the outside/in line. Just last night a dude behind me yelled this and I responded with "NO" and getting wide with my elbows. Guy cussed me, grabbed a handful of brakes, and was forced to stay hung out until he found a gap.