General Cycling Discussion - "IT" aka "Ginger" aka "Segway"

So what do you guys think about Inventor Dean Kamen's
new invention? I think it is pretty cool and may help rduce cars but, I think it will also make us lazier and could be a nightmare for cyclist. Here is a link to Time magazines article.

http://www.time.com/time/index.html

[Kamen's aspirations are even grander than that. He believes the Segway "will be to the car what the car was to the horse and buggy." ]

This guy doesn't realize that too many people will refuse to get out of their cars. Case in point, any metropolitan city in the world. There are more "alternate" forms of transportation available, just not preferred. This guy dreams as big as the Critical Mass movement. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see everyone abondon their cars for trips under 20 miles, but the reality is it won't happen! Unless, the world runs completely out of petrolium. There are too many factors that will limit this things popularity. Climate, storage space, PRICE ($3,000 holy smokes)....etc. These would sell by the hundred thousands if you could get the price down below the $300 price point, like that would ever happen! Also, if the masses were willing to give up their cars for a more environmentally sound and cost efficient method of transportation, commuter bikes would be the hottest selling bikes in the industry. Are they? NO! Why? Too many reasons to list.

I'd love to see these things go global in a big way. I'm not trying to put these things down, but to make a statement like the one quoted above, makes me think this guy is a few short of a dozen.

If an engineer of lesser credentials and reputation proposed It/Ginger/Segway, I would be extremely skeptical. However, since I respect Kamen, I am moderately skeptical, instead. Clearly, the economic success will depend more on infrastructure, political climate, and public perception than on the technology itself. Where will one be permitted to ride It -- on the sidewalk/pavement/footpath; in a bike lane; on streets with 25mph/40kph speed limits? With two wheels side-by-side, will it be able to squeeze through tight spaces as effectively as a bicycle? Where can one park it? I hate to pre-judge, but so far I see no advantage of Segway over a bicycle, except for those who do not want to exert themselves. Even a quasi-bike, such as a Strida (www.strida.com), makes more sense to me, at 1/8 the price.

If fear of automotive traffic and inclement weather are really the greatest deterrents to bicycling, Segway is doomed, because it addresses neither. Perhaps Kamen intends for Manchester NH to be a test environment; I'll be watching with great interest.

How is this thing any better than one of the little scooters with an electric motor that cost a few hundred bucks? Oh, yeah, it balances for you. THAT will get people out of their cars. It seems to me that a bike is more comfortable and enjoyable. I can't imagine that this will ever be more than a fad, if it even gets that far at $3,000 a pop (said the doubter to Henry Ford :D ).

$3000 ... my dad purchased his first computer, a 8088, 8Mz, 6" green and yellow screen, no hard drive, just two 5 1/4" floppy drives, for over $5000.00, That same computer would sell for under $100 new today.

So you never know, maybe once the price drops to an affordable price, and people start using them in the city, thinks may change... i kinda doubt we will see cars out of the cities for another 10 - 20 years, by then, who knows what new invention we will have for city use, but things have to change, and they will change.

I think if the demand is there, and its a proven mode of transportation, the price will come down... Im just thrilled that a device is getting this much attention for urban transportation, we all know that the automobile is not for city use, however i have no problems riding my bike with the cars and trucks in the city...

I have just two words to say regarding the likelihood of it becoming a mass adopted means of transportation - "Sinclair C5"

Richard

My thoughts are:

1. Boy, I'd like to ride that just one time!

2. The inventor might know technology, but he doesn't know people. You know where you'll see this scooter? It will become a new sidewalk and off road sport for rich teenagers - they may even find a way to attach a boom box and a way to park them on the back of their cars so that when they drive to the mall they won't have to walk ‘all that way’ through the big (and growing) parking lot.

Taken from theITquestion.com (http://www.theitquestion.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7528&FORUM_ID=1&CAT_ID=1&Topic_Title=Segway+vs%2E+Bicycle%3F&Forum_Title=IT+discussion)


Let's run a simple comparison between what's already available today and what the Segway HT is offering:

* Bicycles are faster.
* Bicycles have greater range.
* Bicycles are lighter.
* Bicycles can stop in shorter distances.
* Bicycles are less than 1/10 the price of a Segway.
* Bicycles are more environmental friendly.
* Bicycles let you sit down as you ride.
* Bicycles keep you further away from messy hazards like puddles and dust.
* Bicycles also have two wheels.
* Folding bicycles also fit into your trunk.
* Segway HT has a much smaller turning radius.
* Segway HT requires less power from the user.

I think it's likely that Segways will sell, but not because they are truly revolutionary. It will be good marketing that carries them.

On the surface, people imagine them to be self-balancing scooters. But scooters only weigh a few pounds. The Segway HT is 80 pounds! That's not exactly portable, for many people. If it runs out of juice, gets a flat, or the terrain becomes unmanageable (heavy rains, for example), the device turns into a hinderance rather than a help.

Segway HTs would be a terror on the sidewalk in city environments, so they'll most likely be confined to the streets. This isn't exactly "improved walking." It's more like "limited biking."

There are places where I see them being useful:

* Large warehouses.
* Mail and package distribution centers.
* Corporate campuses.

As pointed out by others, one of the biggest problems will be theft. It doesn't matter whether or not the device will function after its stolen. What matters is the value of the parts and the perceived value of the product, as a whole. Fenders, wheels, tires, circuit boards, motors, etc. will appeal to the carjacking crowd and the thought of nabbing someone's $3000 toy will appeal to the hoodlum crowd.

If they can get the cost way down, or improve security dramatically, then I can also imagine:

* College campuses.
* Outdoor malls.
* Neighborhood commercial districts.

I'm not convinced people will commute to work on them. Why aren't those same people using bicycles or electric scooters today?


---Xeno

Where's the beef?

I keep hearing about the Ginger, but I have never seen one. Even the five page TIME magazine website doesn't have a photo.

It makes me wonder if it is just some joke fiction.

Where can I see a photo or a video of Ginger? Anybody have any internet views to share?

Heck, if it gets 3,000 lb vehicles off the road, I am all for it.

FWIW, right now, 12/3/2001 at 12:35 PM CST, Rush Limbaugh is talking about the device. He is asking some of the same questions.

On theft: I wonder if any Segway buyers will want a LoJack as an extra-cost option ...

On mixed-mode travel: I can extend my cycling range or save time by bringing a bike on either a light (trolley) or a heavy (commuter rail or AMTRAK) rail car. Can I do that with an 80-lb Segway?

Despite my reservations about market viability, I do not want to rush to judgment. Kamen has talent, money, and connections. Let's see how this thing plays out.

Here is a photo...http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/12/03/scooter.unveiling/

$3,000 for that?

Someone's getting ripped off! Doesn't even have the new Mavic wheels on it. No Campy components, nothing! What about that color? Como se dice, "Bland"! And the handlebar/steerer/post, no fancy bar tape? How cheap can this thing get? Where's the radio? Where's the trunk? Is there a place for my cell phone?

It seems that some of the BF.C contributors feel threatened by this new device.

You can still ride you bike. Nobody is taking that away from you.

The way I look at it, any transport that takes a car off the road makes it safer for me on a bike.

From what is reported, the Ginger can do 12 miles per hour. That's about the same as many people do on a bike. Many people will never bike or walk for any reason. I hope the Ginger provides them with a new alternative which is safer (to all) and more environmentally friendly than automobiles.

How can this thing be a threat to cycling? As far as I can see, it's only likely to be used on the footpath/sidewalk. That's the last place any self-respecting cyclist would want to be anyway.

I wonder if I can get one made with Easton's RAD tubing, Stratos shocks w/5" of travel and Nokian Gazzalodi 3.0 tires. You know one that could take 6 foot drops and stair gaps.:D
Maybe they could license the technology to Kona.:D

QUOTE]any transport that takes a car off the road makes it safer for me on a bike[/QUOTE]

That's the problem; I think that almost no one will give up his/her car for one. The number of cars will keep growing and so will the number of off road vehicles (including ITs).

I'm just waiting for the first time a microprocessor fails on one of those things, and the driver does a face-plant!
Can you say "lawsuit"???

With all the marketing hype and secrecy that has been behind this thing for over a year, even if "IT" was an invention that actually solved some sort of a problem, it still wouldn't live up to the hype.

When I saw it, I thought, yeah I guess it's pretty ok... for a scooter.

It's purpose is to take out the need for walking, correct? Or even balancing for that matter... (we all know what a balancing act walking is)
It seems this is going to be another chapter in "Man's Quest for Absolute Physical Inactivity"... why is it that we have diet pills, cars, elevators? The average person hates effort!!

But, as was pointed out in Back to the Future III (great series), people may walk to and from work, but when that is no longer necessary, many people will walk anyway, "recreation".

From the recent National Geographic, I read a Confucious quote: "Of course you want to be rich and famous [and lazy!]. It's natural. But the question is what are you willing to trade for it?"

Definitely revolutionary.

This is exactly what NintendoWorld needs: A $4,000 scooter that gives people another reason not to walk anywhere.

What if people began to use IT to transport themselves from their car in to their desk and then to the break room...and so forth.

In this mornings paper the US POST OFFICE has ordered a bunch of these at $8000.00 (that's EIGHT thousand) per unit. You can anticipate another raise in postage soon.

I know the mail carriers will just LOVE these things.

Scenario for the suburban area where I live:
Stop truck. Pull out ramps. Roll IT out. Get on and deliver to houses. Roll IT back on. Move truck down the street. Stop truck...

AND don't forget, IT probably won't do well over grass SO while delivering. Stop IT at foot of sidewalk up to house. Put mail in box. Walk back to IT. Roll to next house. Repeat.

Result: Route takes 2-3 times as long to run! PROGRESS!

Urban route: Roll IT to apartment complex. Leave IT to insert mail at main mailbox cluster. IT stolen. Walk route as usual.

Err excuse my ignorance on this one , but what is new about this particolar machine.

Don`t we already have power assisted cycles?
What is so different about this, as someone has already stated why can`t we see any views of the "Ginger".

We also as previously mentioned were given the Sinclair C5 it came in the 70`s with a great fanfare and balyhoo as a cheap alternative to the car, where are they now , confined to history as a great idea in concept , but a miserable failure in production.
I get the feeling that this machine is doomed to a similar fate.
It would be great to be proved wrong , only time will tell

Originally posted by Steele-Bike
What if people began to use IT to transport themselves from their car in to their desk and then to the break room...and so forth.

That's probably the most likely scenario :rolleyes: . Of course, at $8,000 a go, they might be careful not to get too close to me when I'm walking (channel 9 news might think it obsolete, but not me) on the footpath if I'm having a bad day.

It has wheels side by side and you stand on a platform between them. It's controled by microchips a gyroscopes. Has no brakes. You control it by shifting your weight forward , backward and side to side. Has a proclaimed top speed of 12 mph.

Originally posted by John E
I see no advantage of Segway over a bicycle, except for those who do not want to exert themselves.

But you must keep in mind that not everyone wants to exert themselves. And it doesn't matter if it has no advantage to people like you and me over a bicycle. It's not meant to take bicycles on head-on.

As we get into the "graying of America", I can see a future generation of Segway potentially becoming used by the eldery population. A future generation of Segway could also be adapted for people with certain physical disabilities. Consider the version that's been shown to be a Model T. Who knows how it could develop?

I think the things just some piece of ***** that never should have been made. I never even heard of it until today's school news!!

They should market a "segway" helmet for drunks. Put it on and would assist you in staying upright.

This thing does sound like a technoligical marvel. But...

It's basically a fancy computer. Have you ever worked on any computer for any length of time without problems, glitches, etc? Seems to me, sooner or later it's going to burp, and somebody is going to do an endo, face plant, or some other unpleasant trick. Law suits, bad publicity, etc...

No storage, expensive, heavy... Although I like the idea of getting cars off the road, I can't see it making an impact on the millions of cars on the road.

Give me my simple bike - (relatively) cheap, fun and healthy.

Originally posted by Ba-Dg-Er
Supposedly according to some CNN report mechanical failure is supposed to result in a shaking alerting you to the failure so that you can get off and then push the stupid thing around with you.


Which kind of defeats the original purpose to my way of thinking.

People make fun of me because I spent 700 clams on my last bike. I dont see 'em running out to buy these.

Besides, its a scooter. No one in their right mind over the age of 12 wants a scooter.

I think this could be a great way for those who have a physical problem with walking, and traversing the huge warehouses of some companies. I'm a bit of a tech geek, so I think it's a cool toy, but that's about it. If I'm going to throw down $3000 for something besides a car to get me around, I'll be going straight to my LBS. Don't get me wrong, I think it's marvelous, and would/will be in line for a test ride, but as my Zen master Homer Simpson one said "It's wasteful and practical." Really, when this thing needs a tune-up or quick fix, how many of us without engineering degrees will be smart/brave enough to take it apart to do so. As we all know, most fixes on our bikes can be done in our own home without fear of completely destroying it in doing so. One thing that particularly irked me in my local paper was the statement that if successful, city planners would be implementing "bike" paths principally for these. Of course us cyclists owuld also be able to share these paths. How come it took something like this to finally shake up the boys at City Hall to build bike paths. We've been on them for years for the same thing! In my opinion, yes, it's a great alternative to a car ( I fall asleep some nights, hoping I'll wake up in some Twilight Zone episode where cars were never invented or quashed by some event ), but it's just one more invention that will reaffirm America's place as the most obese country in the world. Burn a calorie America!

Originally posted by Spic-Mick
I wonder if I can get one made with Easton's RAD tubing, Stratos shocks w/5" of travel and Nokian Gazzalodi 3.0 tires. You know one that could take 6 foot drops and stair gaps.:D
Maybe they could license the technology to Kona.:D

Hehe..sign me up for two!!!

Rich

Originally posted by raptor
One thing that particularly irked me in my local paper was the statement that if successful, city planners would be implementing "bike" paths principally for these. Of course us cyclists owuld also be able to share these paths. How come it took something like this to finally shake up the boys at City Hall to build bike paths. We've been on them for years for the same thing!

Bike paths are bad enough already with pedestrians, roller bladers, dogs etc now. If these are added to the equation, they will only become worse. As far as I am concerned, it will just continue to make paths even more impractical and dangerous. I think I will be sticking to the road for a while yet.

My father-in-law, 78, has tried conventional electric scooters because he realizes he will eventually be unable to drive a car safely. Since he has had minor difficulties with balance, Segway might be a solution. As an inventor and genuine retired rocket scientist, he would also enjoy the technology.

Many people are star-dazzled by computer gadgetry. A lot of existing computer gadgetry keeps people parked on their butts. The Segway is gadgetry that gets people off of their butts. True, the Segway does not provide exercise, and it won't appeal to cyclists like ourselves, but it's nice to see a computer gadget that gets people outside without being surrounded by 4 tons of metal.

Does it have internet access?

Neat idea though. Should sell dozens.

Anything to get those smog-boxes off the road! ;)

Seriously (and I am serious,) when was the last time you drove to Disneyworld/land/etc., parked 1 mile from the gate, then walked for three hours inside the park? I loved the exercise, but most car drivers need another self-propelled (non human-powered) vehicle besides the car to get around in. They just don't have the stamina!

"In the year 2525..." :D

I'll always prefer human power, but I like the idea of this "Ginger" thing. (I'd love to ride past people "Gingering" around town.)

Im sure disney land will be renting this by the end of next year for a few bucks a day :)

Bike paths are bad enough already with pedestrians, roller bladers, dogs etc now. If these are added to the equation, they will only become worse. As far as I am concerned, it will just continue to make paths even more impractical and dangerous. I think I will be sticking to the road for a while yet.
I'll say. Here in Michigan we have a bike path that runs parralel with a major freeway to help cyclists get from one town to another relatively easy. Great idea, but once the state built it, with rather poor planning I might add, they didn't bother to keep it in good condition. There's so many potholes, cracks, and areas of flooding, that it's almost neccessary to take a dual-suspension MTB to tackl it for any reasonable amount of time. I'm with you. Leave the "bike" paths to runners, rollerbladers, and beginners of all ages. As for me, I'll take my chances with autos on the road

On the consumer side this is a wheelchair for sedentary people. The next model could have a seat on it because its just too hard to stand. From the wheelchair to the grave. Maybe our children will not have to learn to walk.

On the commercial side it has possibilities.

I no sooner saw news about Segway's new toy than I saw another article about the growing incidence of obesity in America. The contrast really struck me as odd.

I just can't foresee these things becoming very popular unless 350-lb people here can sit down on them and use an onboard microwave. What comes next - Segway racing? Will such racers wear spandex or one-size-fits-all tent dresses? Should they come with "Wide Load" signs?

Will we have to avoid hitting these things while we're riding centuries like we do now with roller bladers? OOOOOHHH... won't it be grueling to "lean forward" for 100 miles! You could break a sweat... if you stop to do some exercise.

Will roads be built with car lanes, bike lanes and Segway lanes? I can't wait to ride up alongside one and tip it over! Then maybe I'll understand what hostile drivers have been feeling for years!

Of course, I could be all wrong.



:beer: :beer:

The more I think about it, the less successful I think this thing's going to be. Cars are basically for people who are scared of the outside world (I've seen too many people eat lunch and do whatever else from inside their car to believe anything else), so they won't get that market.

Most people who walk/run/cycle do so because it's what they want to do. I can't see those sort of people wanting this little contraption either. My prediction: At $8,000 a go, nobody is going to buy this thing and it will be commemorated only by this thread in about three months from now.

If I were temporarily or permanently unable to walk or ride a bike*, I would be extremely interested in Segway, particularly if I could bring it aboard a bus. [It is compatible with my local commuter rail system.] I think I would feel more confident riding a Segway in a bike lane than a wheelchair on a sidewalk.


*Spending 3 weeks of high school with a split-stiffed left knee, and repeating the experience 25 years later, affects one's outlook.

I am rather disapointed by the announced specs of the machine. Range is limited, speed is slow, the thing is also bulky, probably does not lock easily (a major downside), is too heavy to easily carry aboard a train and does not even include in built light for night riding. Frankly it seems much of a gimmick. Besides the technical innovation part (gyroscopic technologies etc) there are more efficient (and cheaper) electric scooter around and it just seem less practical than a bike. Also it does not have a pannier and it is unclear wheather it is insurable while insurance is required in many states (like NM) for ALL motorized vehicles (including electric bikes)

Else, if I thought that it could really meet my in-city transportation needs, I'd buy one.