BTW years ago I did a tour of California on the BikeCentennial designated route... there was really nothing special about it... except for Santa Barbara, where there were bike controlled traffic signals and well designed and designated bike lanes and paths... all the rest involved nothing more than a simple sign somewhere that pointed out where you should turn... while you still had to deal with all the usual issues of motor traffic and roads designed primarily for the automobile.
If that is all we would get from the government... then frankly they can save the cost of signs and pass it on to education.
I think all you get is a few signs, and the words, "Hey, you are on your own!" :eek:
It's funny how many bike lanes "disappear," and you are on your own with traffic. There's no national policy to connect them. I guess those who distrust the government to do any good would expect us to go out there with a can of paint and do the job.
Is that allowed??? :lol:
maddmaxx
05-15-08, 09:47 AM
If it took the Govt to send a man to the moon, I don't see why not they can make a bike route to criscross America. Hey, a few million bucks lost here and there, but it can't possibly be as bad as nation building in Iraq! :o
Taxes, licenses, regulations on bicycles, enforcement and then we will have to look into the federal laws that take precedence over local laws. You may be required to carry insurance and have mandatory safety equipment. There will be tolls to local districts after residents complain about crowding. There will be trail shutdowns and stops for inspections.
Slower riders will have laws enacted to control your speeds. There will be the bicycle equivalent of DOT (or worse, DOT will be expanded to cover this). There might be interstate customs inspections to see if you are carrying prohibited fruit.
Mostly, you will pay and pay and pay and pay.
As to the moon. Government coughed up taxpayer money so private industry could send man to the moon.
DonQuixote1954
05-15-08, 10:25 AM
Taxes, licenses, regulations on bicycles, enforcement and then we will have to look into the federal laws that take precedence over local laws. You may be required to carry insurance and have mandatory safety equipment. There will be tolls to local districts after residents complain about crowding. There will be trail shutdowns and stops for inspections.
Slower riders will have laws enacted to control your speeds. There will be the bicycle equivalent of DOT (or worse, DOT will be expanded to cover this). There might be interstate customs inspections to see if you are carrying prohibited fruit.
Mostly, you will pay and pay and pay and pay.
As to the moon. Government coughed up taxpayer money so private industry could send man to the moon.
Does it have to be that way? Why we don't do it like the Dutch or the Danish? Are they under government control and regulation?
And how about the drivers. If we are already being regulated for driving a car, why not for riding a bike? For one, I'd expect my insurance rates to go down at least by 95%, and my gas consumption to go down by 100%. Well, I'd have to eat more bananas, but that's hardly in government control. :D
maddmaxx
05-15-08, 10:48 AM
Does it have to be that way? Why we don't do it like the Dutch or the Danish? Are they under government control and regulation?
And how about the drivers. If we are already being regulated for driving a car, why not for riding a bike? For one, I'd expect my insurance rates to go down at least by 95%, and my gas consumption to go down by 100%. Well, I'd have to eat more bananas, but that's hardly in government control. :D
If we had the Dutch government and the Dutch voters maybe..................:) But.........we don't.
Bekologist
05-15-08, 11:02 AM
it's VERY DOUBTFUL a series of interconnected trails across america would lead to the highly unrealistic Draconian bicycling policies espoused by maddmaxx...
read Bob Mionske's excellent book cycling and the law for what and where legal precedence leaves bicyclists in the us....cycling in the USA will never move to the dystopia described by maddmaxx.
rando
05-15-08, 11:02 AM
the older I get the less I believe in governmental solutions to problems. that said, I personally would appreciate a dividend for biking to work like some companies do for their employees.
genec
05-15-08, 11:36 AM
Well, I'd have to eat more bananas, but that's hardly in government control. :D
Actually I think you'd be surprised to find out how much government control there is on bananas. :rolleyes:
The Human Car
05-15-08, 01:48 PM
Fine, but no matter how you slice it, that system of bike routes (already built roads that are simply "designated") will never equal the grade separated and controlled environment that makes up this nation's interstate system for AUTOS.
And I am willing to bet that not even 2% of the cost of the interstate system is spent on this US Bikeway system.
Remember autos travel relatively unimpeded (except by their own crowds... ) across America on the interstate system.... Cyclists on even the most friendly "designated" roads will still have motor traffic and traffic controls (designed for motor traffic) as impediments (and dangers) in their travel.
Not really disagreeing but I think one big hurdle for better road accommodations for cyclists is the belief that bikes cannot be used as transportation and I think what is currently in the works for the U.S. Bicycle Route System is one of the best first step things that we could be doing to help undo this kind of think IMHO.
The Human Car
05-15-08, 01:58 PM
Actually I think you'd be surprised to find out how much government control there is on bananas. :rolleyes:
+1
DonQuixote1954
05-15-08, 03:15 PM
Actually I think you'd be surprised to find out how much government control there is on bananas. :rolleyes:
I knew they controlled the Banana Republics, but not the bananas themselves... :lol:
But, now that we mention it, I think the only realistic hope is that a bunch of cyclists, tired of so much discrimation, grab power in some Banana Republic and establish a Bicycle Utopia. I say Banana Republic because there things are so bad and the vested interests are so much weaker that there's always talk of revolution. Take for example Venezuela, where they got tired of so much corruption that they decided to change things. Well, it's a pity they could only chose a alpha-male gorilla that uses oil to finance his revolution, but assume a group of smart monkeys (bonobos) who know that the future lies in frugality and equality take over.
What would life be like in a Bicycle Utopia? Do we invited the Dutch to organize transportation? How about setting up the whole democratic system the Dutch way? Would you consider moving there? :rolleyes:
Bekologist
05-15-08, 06:49 PM
one thing is certain.
looking for bike utopia on earth would bring one to Copenhagen and not Kansas City!
DonQuixote1954
05-16-08, 09:57 AM
one thing is certain.
looking for bike utopia on earth would bring one to Copenhagen and not Kansas City!
Neither Miami, NY, Chicago or LA... :rolleyes:
Bike Utopia
After a week in Scandinavia, I am in love. Not with a tall, blond Swede, mind you, but with the bike culture here. Coming from New York, where cyclists risk their lives every day dodging manic cab and truck drivers, I was thrilled to escape to Stockholm and Copenhagen. Here, drivers actually stop at stop signs. They also refrain from honking when cyclists and pedestrians cross and intersection. Every major street has wide bike lanes, and most of the time they are painted blue or are slightly elevated to distinguish them even more.
In Copenhagen, cyclists even get their own traffic lights. On almost every street there are lines of parked bikes, since about half the population rides on a given day. Subway stations need to have a section of elevated bike parking to meet demand.
But I guess we need another kind of politicians to put those ideas in place... :thumb:
"As mayor of Bogota, Colombia, Enrique Penalosa accomplished
remarkable changes of monumental proportions for the people of his
country in just three years.
Penalosa changed the way Bogota treated its non-driving citizens by
restricting automobile use and instituting a bus rapid transit system
which now carries a 1/2 million residents daily. Among other
improvements: he widened and rebuilt sidewalks, created grand public
spaces, and implemented over one hundred miles of bicycle paths."
Random Comments
"Bring Mr. Penalosa to Cleveland please! Seriously, how can you get a
hold off him? Is there any way?"
Comment by GaryE
"Another great example of the power of possibility and creativity.
Just because it had never been done before doesn't mean it couldn't be
done!"
Comment by Clarissa
looking for bike utopia on earth would bring one to Copenhagen and not Kansas City!
Oulu Finland! (I haven't been to Copenhagen... so I really don't know)
But Oulu Finland is where bikes "go to heaven." :D
DonQuixote1954
05-16-08, 04:36 PM
Oulu Finland! (I haven't been to Copenhagen... so I really don't know)
But Oulu Finland is where bikes "go to heaven." :D
That's why many --including me-- think they are a model in many ways...
http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote50/
cyclezealot
05-16-08, 04:52 PM
[QUOTE=DonQuixote1954;6698815]He must have a low profile on it because there's no single mention to the word "bicycle" on his website nor in his vision for the 21st century...
:This is all the Bike Caucus has to show... :(
(QUOTE]
Click to see John Pucher, of Rutgers University, inspiring cycling-related publications.
The Congressional Bike Caucus has its own site!
Normally Don Q. I seem to find the most references to the Bike caucus here.
http://www.bikeleague.org/index.php
cyclezealot
05-17-08, 05:42 AM
What a change of attitude an ocean divide makes. Some Americans say the government should stay out of everything. Food inspections unneeded. Road building . Maybe. ? / Heck in the US we can't even get decent funding for Senior citizens centers or Meals on Wheels. / So. My wife 's language skills have us on the east side of the Atlantic for unsaid number of years as a teacher. / So. again. I belong to a bike club in a neighboring village. Since the club is part of a 'mairie function,' they are helping to sponsor a private club (?) association mid ride cafe/ lunch for a grouping of bike clubs. We ride tomorrow to one of the stopping points for a cycling break high up in the mountains. / The village not only helped us to buy some of the food for the cycling association, but provided us with a village car to carry the food to the private function. / In the US that might lead to some kind of investigation. Here it is encouraged. / Guess, they figure it helps to keep the population healthy. Bike clubs are big. At Our cycling break point, will of course display a sign stating who provided this repast./ The village also provides the bike club with a club house at the village sports center. The beer and wine in the club refrigerator we have to buy all by ourselves.
Bekologist
05-17-08, 07:08 AM
regarding Bogata, there's the example of a sprawling, autocentric PanAmerican megalopolis 18 million? making fundamental changes in its' infrastructure to improve transportation by transit and bike. the mayor of Bogata during that period used to be fond of saying "If a lane (of traffic or bikelane ) cannot be ridden in safely by an eight year old, it is not a bike lane!"
kind of puts the American/British/Canadian dystopic integration model of
'bikes in high speed traffic lanes, what??' attitude to shame, eh?
i read an interesting article last night about the future of the earth. Yvon Chouinard, founder of Black Diamond, Patagonia and environmentalist, pointed out when the oil shortages of the 1970 began, MOST OTHER DEVELOPED COUNTRIES placed HUGE TAXES on gasoline and began vast improvements to public transit. this led to greater oil independence and inplementation of increased bike and transit infrastructure. Yvon quipped all america did was lower the speed limit :eek:
Nowadays, while other countries enjoy dense rapid transit networks, rapid rail and human scaled street designs, America collectively sits in widespread traffic congestion like schizophrenic, amnesiac mice consuming the lions' share of the worlds' petroleum driving vehicles that average 15 MPG.
DonQuixote1954
05-19-08, 08:41 AM
[QUOTE=DonQuixote1954;6698815]He must have a low profile on it because there's no single mention to the word "bicycle" on his website nor in his vision for the 21st century...
:This is all the Bike Caucus has to show... :(
(QUOTE]
Click to see John Pucher, of Rutgers University, inspiring cycling-related publications.
The Congressional Bike Caucus has its own site!
Normally Don Q. I seem to find the most references to the Bike caucus here.
http://www.bikeleague.org/index.php
Things are happening piecemeal though.
You know what we really need, A M.L. KING FOR THE BICYCLE WORLD! Or otherwise a decentralized campaign, where people all rally for the same purpose, ie. bike facilities.
There's Critical Mass, but they have the wrong strategy to block traffic. The right approach is to TAKE THE LANE, having appropriate T-shirts to display the issue*, and let the traffic pass to on the other lanes.
*For example:
"We will take the lane
until we get bike lanes
so we can bike for peace"
DonQuixote1954
05-19-08, 09:24 AM
kind of puts the American/British/Canadian dystopic integration model of
'bikes in high speed traffic lanes, what??' attitude to shame, eh?
Nowadays, while other countries enjoy dense rapid transit networks, rapid rail and human scaled street designs, America collectively sits in widespread traffic congestion like schizophrenic, amnesiac mice consuming the lions' share of the worlds' petroleum driving vehicles that average 15 MPG.
I think the whole region south of the border has the wrong role model. Perhaps because their elites travel to Miami, they bring back the dream of SUVs and super highways... But the whole system is meant to feed the lion to the north. And Latin America is the region that most could benefit from having a bike infrastructure in place! Only hope is to put the lion to eat banana, ie. make a vegetarian out of him! :eek:
There's one notable exception though: Curitiba. Their development of public transportation and social integration is unique in the region. I don't know though if they remembered the cyclists. :o
Bicycles should the first line of development, then public transportation, then alternative vehicles...
o-dog
05-19-08, 08:54 PM
let's face it, most Americans are NEVER gonna ride bikes, and no amount of government intervention is ever going to change that.
however, a seperated "interstate-like" system for bikes would be nice. I sometimes get tired of using either car-choked roads or wilderness no-man's land trails to get around and dream of something better.
SingingSabre
05-20-08, 02:47 AM
Would have to be an extremely brave or stupid president to travel by bike... (not because of car drivers in this case, more teh crazy "lone gunmen" to be worried about)
That's what the powerweave is for! :D:roflmao2:
DonQuixote1954
05-20-08, 09:24 AM
let's face it, most Americans are NEVER gonna ride bikes, and no amount of government intervention is ever going to change that.
however, a seperated "interstate-like" system for bikes would be nice. I sometimes get tired of using either car-choked roads or wilderness no-man's land trails to get around and dream of something better.
Well, most Dutch don't ride bikes. Only about 30% do, but those who want to do it have choices.
That's the key word, choice to choose among bikes, scooters, cars and minivans for those with large families. The SUVs though belong in a museum.
Americans are moldable like everybody else. If they are able to support a stupid war that's draining their money, they would support bicycling, given its promotion comes from the top.
The Human Car
05-21-08, 06:00 PM
let's face it, most Americans are NEVER gonna ride bikes, and no amount of government intervention is ever going to change that.
I disagree, local surveys show that we have a 60% interest in cycling. I personally see the major obstacle to cycling is the strong disconnect with government who thinks that everyone is willing to put their bike on a car and go someplace nice to ride and I think most of the potential cycling population who would like to hop on the bike from home. We have some lovely underutilized trails where people who live a 1/2 mile from them are not comfortable biking to them and are not all that comfortable butting the bike on the car and driving there. We dump tones of money in building more trails that people can't bike to and hardly any money on improving bicycle access to our current bike trails and I don't think this is right.
I think part of the problem is bikes are seen in two modalities, recreation or transportation and I think we need to develop a stronger bikes as a hybrid modality where we add recreational facilities to the essential destinations list of the transportation model and we include in the transportation model local routes that can serve as a recreational route.