Road Bike Racing - Saris/Slipstream release more pro data to geek out over

The Giro TTT:
http://www.saris.com/athletes/PermaLink,guid,ec84161a-b39f-42f3-8e7b-70bf043627ab.aspx

Christian Vandevelde: (350W average - negative splitting)

http://www.saris.com/athletes/ct.ashx?id=ec84161a-b39f-42f3-8e7b-70bf043627ab&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.saris.com%2faboutus%2fimages%2fslipstream%2f08Giro%2fGiroTTT_VandeVelde_lg.jpg

Millar averaged 403W before his sacrificial pull:
http://www.saris.com/athletes/ct.ashx?id=ec84161a-b39f-42f3-8e7b-70bf043627ab&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.saris.com%2faboutus%2fimages%2fslipstream%2f08Giro%2fGiroTTT_Millar_lg.jpg

I'm kind of surprised they're releasing this publicly. Aren't most pros pretty secretive about this stuff?

Yeah, me too -- it's surprising. I guess that they're selective. Short TTs don't show weaknesses that much, so I don't imagine there's much exposure there. When they start releasing power files from winning attacks in the mountains, then I'll be floored.

Millars heart rate is like 175 to 180bpm avg. Wow.

jeez, DaveZ putting out 5.63 W/kg over the TTT. Unreal. Magnus "only" mustered 4.49 w/kg

I'm kind of surprised they're releasing this publicly. Aren't most pros pretty secretive about this stuff?

Yes, because if their competitors know their power numbers, they can then set their wattage dials slightly higher.

It's pretty cool, I think the speed differences between them are showing who was dropping back when. Millar's speed drops right after a power spike, then goes back up during another spike (accelerating back onto the back).

Yes, because if their competitors know their power numbers, they can then set their wattage dials slightly higher.

You jest, but seriously, that's true. If I know my opponent's weakness is around say 5 minute power, then I'll attack him at the foot of a 5 minute climb.

Millars heart rate is like 175 to 180bpm avg. Wow.

That means nothing.

I'm surprised the numbers are that low.

jeez, DaveZ putting out 5.63 W/kg over the TTT. Unreal. Magnus "only" mustered 4.49 w/kg

When you see the winning TTT efforts in a grand tour around 5+/- w/kg for a slightly longer than 20 minute effort it makes you wonder about some of the regular joes on here posting up numbers like that;)

That means nothing.

Hmm.. good point. I guess comparing to your owns maximum heart rate is no good.

I'm surprised the numbers are that low.

Are you?

I'm pretty sure the circa 1999 numbers would be higher, across the board.

Are you?

Yes.


I'm pretty sure the circa 1999 numbers would be higher, across the board.

Certainly wouldn't be lower. I'm guess I'm still expecting the 6.7 watts/kg type FTP's.

Yes.



Certainly wouldn't be lower. I'm guess I'm still expecting the 6.7 watts/kg type FTP's.

Well this was also a TTT, I think the normalized powers would be more revealing than the averages. Magnus' 4.5 w/kg would probably be closer to 5 and DaveZ's 5.6 would easily break 6...

Avg power is definitely deceptive here - which makes it that much more impressive. I'm betting normalized power would be in the neighborhood of 30-50 watts higher. That's a pretty significant difference, ½ w/kg-ish

To think that Millar avg'd over 400 w for 20+ minutes when he wasn't on the front the whole time is amazing to think about.

I always find it interesting that people are so afraid to release the power numbers. I say kudos to Slipstream and Saris for being so transparent. There are a few things to realize here:

TTT - average is going to be much lower than norm.

Grand tour - Pacing is everything. This is not a one-off weekend race that these guys are resting up for. This IS training for a few weeks from now.

Pros - ride much much longer distances daily. Yeah, for something short like this their numbers will be in the realm of "normal people" but understand that it is an endurance sport. 400 watts for 20 minutes? Some of us can do that. 320 watts for 6 hours? Whole different world.

When you see the winning TTT efforts in a grand tour around 5+/- w/kg for a slightly longer than 20 minute effort it makes you wonder about some of the regular joes on here posting up numbers like that;)

I think I hit a whopping 2.9 w/kg a few times in the past if I remember right for a ride average. I really don't want to open up CyclingPeaks and totally depress myself. Never could hit that elusive 3 w/kg mark.

I can't even begin to imagine what being able to average 5.6 w/kg must feel like.

Millars heart rate is like 175 to 180bpm avg. Wow.

FYI - His max is 190.

I know the normalized power will be higher than the average. I'd be surprised if it was more than 5% different, though.

Training? It's a half-hour long. Sure, you won't be peaking; but these guys are pro's.

I'm still surprised.

FYI - His max is 190.

Mine's ~192. My average HR at a 20K TT last year was 178. I'd give you more recent numbers, but I've stopped wearing a HRM, as I don't find the numbers have any real significance.

Mine's ~192. My average HR at a 20K TT last year was 178. I'd give you more recent numbers, but I've stopped wearing a HRM, as I don't find the numbers have any real significance.

Sure they do. You can't graph data that you do not have.

When you see the winning TTT efforts in a grand tour around 5+/- w/kg for a slightly longer than 20 minute effort it makes you wonder about some of the regular joes on here posting up numbers like that;)

Seeing as they're going at 6.5+ for 20min+ up mountains, um, 5w/kg isn't that amazing.

Particularly when you take into account the fact that Dave Z pulled maybe 15% of the time, then sat in the draft at 300w.

For some reference David Millar was metioning (I believe on another Cyclops audio file report) that he averaged ~409 watts for an hour at the end of Stage 3 or 4 of Tour of California. Keep in mind that's after 3-4 hours of racing. I'm pretty sure his normalized power would be quite a bit higher for this TTT.

Sure they do. You can't graph data that you do not have.

Tell that to botto.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1787/may14bf1.jpg

botto has two hears? I find that incredibly hard to believe... at times it hardly seems as if he has one.

I'm kind of surprised they're releasing this publicly. Aren't most pros pretty secretive about this stuff?
Guess not...

I'm kind of surprised they're releasing this publicly. Aren't most pros pretty secretive about this stuff?

I think I read somewhere that open reporting (or at least more open reporting) of power numbers was another way they intended to show they ride clean. They're numbers are high but not super-human and if you saw Millar put out 400W in May and 600W in July, it might make you wonder...

I think I read somewhere that open reporting (or at least more open reporting) of power numbers was another way they intended to show they ride clean. They're numbers are high but not super-human and if you saw Millar put out 400W in May and 600W in July, it might make you wonder...

Millar was hinting at an FTP of >475W around the time he won the world TT championships.

Seeing as they're going at 6.5+ for 20min+ up mountains, um, 5w/kg isn't that amazing.

Particularly when you take into account the fact that Dave Z pulled maybe 15% of the time, then sat in the draft at 300w.

DZ's 20 min power is <6 W/kg.

DZ's 20 min power is <6 W/kg.

Levi was estimated to have done the ToC TT at a little under 400w, if I remember correctly.

And as he probably weighs <65kg, well, you can do the math. Not a huge stretch to imagine 400w in an upright climbing position, either.

http://blog.trainingpeaks.com/2008/03/an-interview-with-levi-leipheimer-march-10th-2008html.html

That's 400/XXkg. I'm guessing 62, which would be 6.45w/kg.

Also:

Tom Danielson, in shape, was claiming to be ~400w for significant periods of time, at 60kg.

Levi was estimated to have done the ToC TT at a little under 400w, if I remember correctly.

And as he probably weighs <65kg, well, you can do the math. Not a huge stretch to imagine 400w in an upright climbing position, either.

http://blog.trainingpeaks.com/2008/03/an-interview-with-levi-leipheimer-march-10th-2008html.html

That's 400/XXkg. I'm guessing 62, which would be 6.45w/kg.

I don't recall Levi doing the Giro TTT with Slipstream.

No math, no estimates. Have the rider in question do a 20 min test.

I don't recall Levi doing the Giro TTT with Slipstream.

No math, no estimates. Have the rider in question do a 20 min test.

I'm simply saying that if you believe DZ is only capable of <6w/kg for 20min, you're insane.

Because you said, above, that DZ's 20min power, not specifying TT or climb, solo or TTT, is <6w/kg. And I simply refuse to believe that.

And yeah, I realize that he was at 5.63w/kg or whatever for the TTT. But when jrennie says that he doesn't believe mere amateurs can go at 5w/kg for 20min, well, that's laughable.

I'm simply saying that if you believe DZ is only capable of <6w/kg for 20min, you're insane.

Because you said, above, that DZ's 20min power, not specifying TT or climb, solo or TTT, is <6w/kg. And I simply refuse to believe that.

Well, DZ's 20 min test file says he can't do >6 W/kg.

Link?

I think I hit a whopping 2.9 w/kg a few times in the past if I remember right for a ride average. I really don't want to open up CyclingPeaks and totally depress myself. Never could hit that elusive 3 w/kg mark.

I can't even begin to imagine what being able to average 5.6 w/kg must feel like.

I'd have w/kg like these guys... if I weighed 120lbs.

Link?

Sorry, it's not public and I promised not to share the file.

then you prolly shoulda kept your fingers still two posts ago, silly!

Oddly enough, it seems that DZ TTs at almost the same wattage he can climb.

If you look through the Saris site, among their wattage question/answer section, a guy asks why DZ isn't a GT GC contender, and it seems that he just doesn't have the ability to suffer (yet) that some of his competitors do. The guy who answered (Lim, maybe?) said that DZ IS coming around, though.

So, while this doesn't provide anything concrete, it does help explain why he kills TTs, yet, for a pretty slender dude, isn't killing it up the mountains.

Oddly enough, it seems that DZ TTs at almost the same wattage he can climb.

That's really crazy to me. I climb (at FTP, suck at AC) much better than I TT.

I'm simply saying that if you believe DZ is only capable of <6w/kg for 20min, you're insane.

Because you said, above, that DZ's 20min power, not specifying TT or climb, solo or TTT, is <6w/kg. And I simply refuse to believe that.

And yeah, I realize that he was at 5.63w/kg or whatever for the TTT. But when jrennie says that he doesn't believe mere amateurs can go at 5w/kg for 20min, well, that's laughable.

I believe that all the estimates I have seen for Z (and I like the guy so have looked for most of them) indicate he is a 5.5-5.6 watts kind of guy. He is NOT crazy strong (though still stronger than every one of us, I would imagine by a good deal). He is however 1) Flexible and so does not lose power in the TT position, whereas most lose a significant amount, and 2) Aero as anything.

TTs are about Aerodaynamics, not W/kg. Look at the saris site pre slipstream and you can see all of the Z power estimates to be stupidly low in comparison to the other riders. Since he lost weight, his climbing has gotten much better, but the guy suffers and it is simply because he doesn't have RAW power, he has AERO power.

As for Levi, he claims to "Only" have managed about 390 to 400 watts for the TdC TT win this year, which was just a hair over 30 minutes. If he was 65kg (no idea) that puts a half hour effort (not an hour) at 6 w/kg.

These numbers fail to surprise me.

Oddly enough, it seems that DZ TTs at almost the same wattage he can climb.

If you look through the Saris site, among their wattage question/answer section, a guy asks why DZ isn't a GT GC contender, and it seems that he just doesn't have the ability to suffer (yet) that some of his competitors do. The guy who answered (Lim, maybe?) said that DZ IS coming around, though.

So, while this doesn't provide anything concrete, it does help explain why he kills TTs, yet, for a pretty slender dude, isn't killing it up the mountains.

I don't know the answer but it's often been suggested that he has good aerodynamics but his power output isn't as high as the GC contenders. So, he can hold his own in TTs but when he's climbing or riding on flat terrain during the mass start stages, he doesn't have that aerodynamic advantage.

I think he's shown improvement in climbing at recent races though (hanging longer with the select climbers at the end of mountain stages, etc.).

You guys all have it wrong, Dave Z's power comes from the 'stache'. It holds magical powers and makes him faster.

I don't know the answer but it's often been suggested that he has good aerodynamics but his power output isn't as high as the GC contenders. So, he can hold his own in TTs but when he's climbing or riding on flat terrain during the mass start stages, he doesn't have that aerodynamic advantage.

I think he's shown improvement in climbing at recent races though (hanging longer with the select climbers at the end of mountain stages, etc.).

Agreed. Going over the top of that mountain at the ToC in 3rd next to Horner, behind Gesink and Levi, is testament to that. Horner is no slouch, and they weren't too far behind some of the best (Gesink is somewhat unknown, but he won't be for long, methinks) climbers out there.

When looking at big guys power output(Maggie for example), power to weight is misleading (unless you are climbing stairs)... because of the shapes involved (density of human body to frontal area) a more meaningful metric for comparison is power to weight^(2/3)... that is why you see big guys do well in windy flatish races where small guys with much better p/w can't even stay in the draft... p/w is really only a good performance predictor up very steep grades. When comparing cyclists that are of similar size it doesn't matter, but comparing power to weight of a 130lb cyclist compared to a 200lb cyclist will lead you to false conclusions.

^ I'm the empirical example of this. My absolute power is decent. My W/kg is pathetic. I do ok when it's flat,and suck when the road turns up.

^ I'm the empirical example of this. My absolute power is decent. My W/kg is pathetic. I do ok when it's flat,and suck when the road turns up.

+1w/kg

You guys all have it wrong, Dave Z's power comes from the 'stache'. It holds magical powers and makes him faster.

you do realize that he was channeling me, right?

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6296/stachesg6.jpg

you do realize that he was channeling me, right?

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6296/stachesg6.jpg

Is that you, with the addition of chin music, Daniel Day Lewis?