Training & Nutrition - Help me develop an excercise routine

Hey everyone, this is my first post in this particular sub-forum (I'm usually found in the mountain biking section).

Here's the background. I'm overweight. I'm about 5'11" and I weigh around 220lbs. The reality is that I don't eat very much, but I do have a VERY slow metabolism. From what I gather, increasing muscle mass will speed up my metabolism. So, I've trying to do exercise that build muscle.

There is a catch, though. I don't like machines (I also have no space or money for them), so I'm pretty limited to exercises in which the only resistance is my body weight. Currently, I'm doing a couple sets of push-ups, crunches, lunges, and calf raises per day. I'd like ideas for some other exercises I could do to improve my routine and target more of my body's muscle groups.

I appreciate any help you guys could offer.

Get surgical latex tubing from a medical supply house. You can do exercises with them. The classics are the best. Squat, deadlift, bench press, row, etc. You can stand on the tube and do squats, dead lifts, curls, overhead presses and more.

You can add strands of tubing to create more resistance.

Pushing is tougher. But you can get your feet higher than your head and do pushups that way.

if you want to loose weight up your cardio, count your calories and take in lower amounts of fat calories. cardio and change the diet. adding lots of muscle wont do that much for you, your fat will still be there on top of the muscle. you can also try using a weight loss supplement with your changed diet and more cardio based excersize. you can take up swimmming, or running that would help allot.

Remember, the speed of your metabolism has to do with your fitness. It is not something innate. Increasing muscle will definitely help increase your metabolism. How about some free weights? You can do a great workout with push-ups, crunches, and some dumbbells.

Weight machines are generally garbage anyway. I believe that every exercise should engage your core, and you can find many workouts these days that do this. Machines generally isolate muscles and neglect your core.

Congratulations on deciding to get in better shape.

if you want to loose weight up your cardio, count your calories and take in lower amounts of fat calories. cardio and change the diet.

The OP states he has a slow metabolism. By reducing calories, this will most likely make the problem worse. And eventually, the beast of hunger will win.

Instead, the OP should clean up his diet. Everybody knows what this means (but very few actually practice it). It comes down to a paradigm shift in which you genuinely believe AND desire a healthier eating lifestyle.



adding lots of muscle wont do that much for you, your fat will still be there on top of the muscle.

The OP is primarily interested in body weight exercises. These types of movements most likely won't add excessive muscle mass - unless the OP is primarily a mesomorph. From his self-description, it appears the OP has a fair amount of endomorphic characteristics.

Now, because the OP does not appear to be performing too much of these types of workouts, when he initiates a program, the adaptation phase will probably add some functional muscle mass. And, although the pundits debate the exact number of calories that a pound of muscle burns - it's generally agreed muscle is metabolically active.

If the OP took your advice and performed only cardio, he will also suffer from imbalance which will lead to problems down the road.


you can also try using a weight loss supplement with your changed diet and more cardio based excersize.

I believe in supplements for certain uses. One of the cardinal rules I apply for any supplement I take is this:
Does this pill/powder have potentially negative consequences?

Fish oil and glucosamine, which I take daily, is low on the risk scale. Creatine, which I take in moderate doses, also runs fairly low on the risk scale (or low enough that I accept the risk).

Weight-loss supplements and long-term use is a dangerous game.

And if you or any one else counters by saying the OP shouldn't have to consume the weight-loss supplements long term, I say WHY F**KING START IF SAFER AND VIABLE OPTIONS HAVEN'T BEEN EXHAUSTED?


you can take up swimmming, or running that would help allot.

The OP, by admission, is over weight. I don't believe running at this stage is good for his joints. And the fact he is on a cycling forum leads one to believe riding a bike is his main hobby. Now, as the weight goes down, the OP may consider incorporating some running IF he has the inclination and doesn't have any issues which running can aggravate.

You've made some valid points ("...change diet.." and "...take up swimming...").

Unfortunately, your total response has a shot-gun feel to it: spray pellets of advice based on differing theories and hope you hit the mark. It's not good enough. The OP and everyone in a similar position deserve better.

Hey everyone, this is my first post in this particular sub-forum (I'm usually found in the mountain biking section).

Here's the background. I'm overweight. I'm about 5'11" and I weigh around 220lbs. The reality is that I don't eat very much, but I do have a VERY slow metabolism. From what I gather, increasing muscle mass will speed up my metabolism. So, I've trying to do exercise that build muscle.

There is a catch, though. I don't like machines (I also have no space or money for them), so I'm pretty limited to exercises in which the only resistance is my body weight. Currently, I'm doing a couple sets of push-ups, crunches, lunges, and calf raises per day. I'd like ideas for some other exercises I could do to improve my routine and target more of my body's muscle groups.

I appreciate any help you guys could offer.

The bodyweight approach you're taking is a smart one. It'll let you develop the tendons and ligaments in a relatively safe manner. It'll also teach body awareness.

Don't take this as trite. However, a typical search engine will yield quite a few variations on the push up, pull up, etc.

Just keep in mind the following:

Any exercise program is only effective until you adapt. Learn to recognize this and switch to something different. You can always come back to a certain exercise after some time away from it.

There's pain that comes from pushing yourself beyond your comforts zone. And there's pain that tells you you're injuring yourself. Learn to recognize the difference. When in doubt, stop and see how you feel 12-48 hours later.

Keep a journal. It's motivating to know that you've done more reps from the month before. It's also a good way to determine when you should change things up a little.

Always always always apply common sense and keep things in perspective.



Edit:

If you want to incorporate some weight training other than body weight, do so judiciously and (as always) with common sense.

Frankly, any male between the ages of 18 and mid 50s who claims to be overall fit should be able to perform a MINIMUM of 10-15 traditional pull ups and 50-75 traditional push ups. If they can't do that yet insist body weight exercises are worthless, smart money says they're idiots.

The bodyweight approach you're taking is a smart one. It'll let you develop the tendons and ligaments in a relatively safe manner. It'll also teach body awareness.

Don't take this as trite. However, a typical search engine will yield quite a few variations on the push up, pull up, etc.

Just keep in mind the following:

Any exercise program is only effective until you adapt. Learn to recognize this and switch to something different. You can always come back to a certain exercise after some time away from it.

There's pain that comes from pushing yourself beyond your comforts zone. And there's pain that tells you you're injuring yourself. Learn to recognize the difference. When in doubt, stop and see how you feel 25-48 hours later.

Keep a journal. It's motivating to know that you've done more reps from the month before. It's also a good way to determine when you should change things up a little.

Always always always apply common sense and keep things in perspective.



Edit:

If you want to incorporate some weight training other than body weight, do so judiciously and (as always) with common sense.

Frankly, any male between the ages of 18 and mid 50s who claims to be overall fit should be able to perform a MINIMUM of 10-15 traditional pull ups and 50-75 traditional push ups. If they can't do that yet insist body weight exercises are worthless, smart money says they're idiots.

Wow. Thank you so much for your responses. They've been detailed and many of the analysis you've made is exactly right. I shy away from running exactly because it's too high impact, and my feet start hurting (I also have flat feet).

Are there any specific routines or exercises that you would recommend?

Wow. Thank you so much for your responses. They've been detailed and many of the analysis you've made is exactly right. I shy away from running exactly because it's too high impact, and my feet start hurting (I also have flat feet).

Are there any specific routines or exercises that you would recommend?

Well...tell me what you're doing now.

Well...tell me what you're doing now.

Per day.

3 * 20 pushups
3 * 25 crunches
2 * 50 lunges (alternating standing lunges)
2* 100 calf raises

plus cardio at somewhat irregular intervals (scheduling issues).

Although, I have a slight suspicion that I don't have the form exactly right on some of these.

Per day.

3 * 20 pushups
3 * 25 crunches
2 * 50 lunges (alternating standing lunges)
2* 100 calf raises

plus cardio at somewhat irregular intervals (scheduling issues).

Although, I have a slight suspicion that I don't have the form exactly right on some of these.

Do you have any issues with your shoulders, elbows, lower back?

A forum member made a very nice, simple online training program generator - and he's good enough to offer it for free. You'll want a bike and an indoor trainer (I use a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine and like it, but there are others that are good too) and then you are away.

Here's the address: http://www.freetrainingplan.com/

Enter a little data about yourself and it will make a workout plan for you, complete with days off.

I can't imagine not losing weight and doing this program, it just involves burning a lot of calories. There's plenty of info about what you are doing and why, yet the look/interface is still pretty simple.

I like too that its nicely broken into easy and hard days and different kinds of hard days, so that you progress, its interesting and you don't burn out.

I just cycle for fun/fitness, and I'd have to say that the FreeTrainingProgram.com has made me a better cyclist, fitter and stronger and saved me from a kind of training rut.

Worth a look..., good luck.

Do you have any issues with your shoulders, elbows, lower back?

Nope. I have mild back pain, but it's something I can live with.

Nope. I have mild back pain, but it's something I can live with.

Push ups should be okay.

I'd rather you perform crunches on an exercise ball. In addition to crunches, add planks.

In addition to lunges, try Bulgarian squats.

Try doing calf raises with one leg at a time.

You can also purchase a sturdy plastic pipe at the local hardware store. Place it between two sturdy chairs and do reverse rows.

If you want to add resistance, add books etc. to a back pack and perform the exercises.

These are just a samples. Don't expect to know everything from the get go. Do expect to make mistakes.

Don't train to failure and keep in mind the general rules I outlined earlier. Also, research the numerous variations on the exercises as well as proper technique. Even the simplest exercise can be performed differently.

Always listen to your body and learn to recognize good pain from the bad. And always apply common sense.

Feel free to bounce ideas off this or similar forums. However, this is ultimately a process of self-discovery.

The OP states he has a slow metabolism. By reducing calories, this will most likely make the problem worse. And eventually, the beast of hunger will win.

Instead, the OP should clean up his diet. Everybody knows what this means (but very few actually practice it). It comes down to a paradigm shift in which you genuinely believe AND desire a healthier eating lifestyle.



The OP is primarily interested in body weight exercises. These types of movements most likely won't add excessive muscle mass - unless the OP is primarily a mesomorph. From his self-description, it appears the OP has a fair amount of endomorphic characteristics.

Now, because the OP does not appear to be performing too much of these types of workouts, when he initiates a program, the adaptation phase will probably add some functional muscle mass. And, although the pundits debate the exact number of calories that a pound of muscle burns - it's generally agreed muscle is metabolically active.

If the OP took your advice and performed only cardio, he will also suffer from imbalance which will lead to problems down the road.



I believe in supplements for certain uses. One of the cardinal rules I apply for any supplement I take is this:
Does this pill/powder have potentially negative consequences?

Fish oil and glucosamine, which I take daily, is low on the risk scale. Creatine, which I take in moderate doses, also runs fairly low on the risk scale (or low enough that I accept the risk).

Weight-loss supplements and long-term use is a dangerous game.

And if you or any one else counters by saying the OP shouldn't have to consume the weight-loss supplements long term, I say WHY F**KING START IF SAFER AND VIABLE OPTIONS HAVEN'T BEEN EXHAUSTED?



The OP, by admission, is over weight. I don't believe running at this stage is good for his joints. And the fact he is on a cycling forum leads one to believe riding a bike is his main hobby. Now, as the weight goes down, the OP may consider incorporating some running IF he has the inclination and doesn't have any issues which running can aggravate.

You've made some valid points ("...change diet.." and "...take up swimming...").

Unfortunately, your total response has a shot-gun feel to it: spray pellets of advice based on differing theories and hope you hit the mark. It's not good enough. The OP and everyone in a similar position deserve better.

in terms of shotgun feel , everything people will say is going to be some what shotgun, we do not know OP personally and he didnt describe himself in detail, i dont know his bodyfat i dont know his level of physical ability so i have to send out a shotgun type response. In terms of not lowering calories, you have to lower calories if you want to loose that fat, well not exactly that but your calorie intake has to be lower than the calories your burning, if not the fat just stays ther eu never loose it. Op if you just do excersize and dont control your caloriue intake you will actually gain weight(muscle weight from weight trianing) and have the same amount of fat, you might actually gain some fat also since your body will want to keep the same body fat percentage. In terms of cardio you said hes over weight so running would be a bad idea, overweight doesnt mean he cant run, im not sayin run a marathon, i suggest 20 to 30 min run at your target heart rate a couple times a week,. it was also stated that he probably rides a bike ,if he doest his joints should be fine to do minimal runnning, or similer types of cardio. Another thing, creatine is actually not the greatest supplement when not used properly it dehydrates your muscle a bit, so it is usually suggested to not use creatine during times when u would do allot of cardio, if you only weight train than creatine is fine if takin with the right amount of liquids. Saying all weight loss pills are unhealthy is a bit over the top, there are lots of healthy weight loss supplements out there, if you do decide to take one, then i suggest looking for pills that have forkolin, green tea extract, synephrine, yohimbine, or tyrosine. Most good fat loss pills focus on making it easier for the body to burn fat , some also help with apetite control, from what i hear hydroxycut works very well. but cutting calories a little would make it easier in the long run, i suggest only consuming 100 to 200 less calories than u burn daily, dont go overboard because thats unhealthy, and also makes it very easy to become over weight again. if u want me to go more in detail about anyhting i said please feel free to ask.

in terms of shotgun feel , everything people will say is going to be some what shotgun, we do not know OP personally and he didnt describe himself in detail, i dont know his bodyfat i dont know his level of physical ability so i have to send out a shotgun type response...im not sayin run a marathon, i suggest 20 to 30 min run at your target heart rate a couple times a week,.

The OP's very first post gave some good information. The following is his reply to my feedback. I read the exact same post that you did. Yet I was able to determine much more than you.


Wow. Thank you so much for your responses. They've been detailed and many of the analysis you've made is exactly right. I shy away from running exactly because it's too high impact, and my feet start hurting (I also have flat feet).


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Saying all weight loss pills are unhealthy is a bit over the top, there are lots of healthy weight loss supplements out there, if you do decide to take one, then i suggest looking for pills that have forkolin, green tea extract, synephrine, yohimbine, or tyrosine. Most good fat loss pills focus on making it easier for the body to burn fat , some also help with apetite control, from what i hear hydroxycut works very well.

The fundamentals have to be in place first. As I stated, the OP (or anyone else who wants to lose weight) need a paradigm shift in how they view food and exercise.

And stuff like hydroxycut is expensive and no one really knows the long-term effects. If you insist otherwise, you're not just an idiot, you're a menace and I WILL GLADLY FLUSH ANY CRAP YOU DUMP INTO THIS FORUM.

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Another thing, creatine is actually not the greatest supplement when not used properly it dehydrates your muscle a bit, so it is usually suggested to not use creatine during times when u would do allot of cardio, if you only weight train than creatine is fine if takin with the right amount of liquids.

Read my post again. I mentioned creatine as an example of a supplement with low long-term risks. I NEVER suggested the OP or anyone use it to lose weight.



I believe in supplements for certain uses. One of the cardinal rules I apply for any supplement I take is this:
Does this pill/powder have potentially negative consequences?

Fish oil and glucosamine, which I take daily, is low on the risk scale. Creatine, which I take in moderate doses, also runs fairly low on the risk scale (or low enough that I accept the risk).

Weight-loss supplements and long-term use is a dangerous game.

And if you or any one else counters by saying the OP shouldn't have to consume the weight-loss supplements long term, I say WHY F**KING START IF SAFER AND VIABLE OPTIONS HAVEN'T BEEN EXHAUSTED?

I mentioned creatine as supplement that I feel has low risk. You INCORRECTLY INFERRED that I recommended it for weight loss.

It's no surprise that your reading comprehension is as sloppy as your prose. And this only confirms the shot gun approach you employ.

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In terms of cardio you said hes over weight so running would be a bad idea, overweight doesnt mean he cant run, im not sayin run a marathon, i suggest 20 to 30 min run at your target heart rate a couple times a week,. it was also stated that he probably rides a bike ,if he doest his joints should be fine to do minimal runnning, or similer types of cardio.

People such as the OP should take up brisk walking at this point. And I never said he should avoid running.



The OP, by admission, is over weight. I don't believe running at this stage is good for his joints. And the fact he is on a cycling forum leads one to believe riding a bike is his main hobby. Now, as the weight goes down, the OP may consider incorporating some running IF he has the inclination and doesn't have any issues which running can aggravate.

Note the last statement: "...as the weight goes down, the OP may consider incorporating some running IF he has the inclination and doesn't have any issues which running can aggravate."

This takes a safer approach. One more example why your suggestions are neither wanted nor intelligent.

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In terms of not lowering calories, you have to lower calories if you want to loose that fat, well not exactly that but your calorie intake has to be lower than the calories your burning, if not the fat just stays ther eu never loose it.

Time and time again, I've seen people focus on calorie reduction. Inevitably, ALL they think about is food. I call it the forbidden fruit effect. Convince someone he can't have something (cheeseburger, ice cream, etc.) and I promise you he will obsess over it. Misery soon follows. And the cravings win.

It's better to focus on a cleaner diet and change your outlook in which bad foods are no longer desired. And then, the calorie reduction will take place subconsciously. Again, it's a matter of working on the fundamentals before trying to apply any finishing touches.


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if u want me to go more in detail about anyhting i said please feel free to ask.

The last I checked, neither the OP nor anyone else has asked you for advice. Read some of the weight training posts that I responded to in the Training and Nutrition forum. Note how the members express gratitude and address questions towards me.

The reality is, you and those of your ilk represent the mis-information one must endure in hopes of gaining anything helpful.

Every so often I tell myself contributing here is a waste of time and money; then I run into fools such as you. So in that regard, you serve a useful purpose. Even manure can be used as fertilizer.

The OP's very first post gave some good information. The following is his reply to my feedback. I read the exact same post that you did. Yet I was able to determine much more than you.

so what if he didnt shy away form running and had no problem with running other than he just doesnt want to run. i think its more of you got lucky and he ended being what you guessed. i had a friend in the same situation but he had no problem with running he was just a bit lazy, started him on a short run about 30 min. at his heart rate , right now he weighs 30 pounds less and is completely happy with his body, he still runs btw, and had no problem doing cardio.


The fundamentals have to be in place first. As I stated, the OP (or anyone else who wants to lose weight) need a paradigm shift in how they view food and exercise.

And stuff like hydroxycut is expensive and no one really knows the long-term effects. If you insist otherwise, you're not just an idiot, you're a menace and I WILL GLADLY FLUSH ANY CRAP YOU DUMP INTO THIS FORUM.

i will agree that people will need to change there diets, of course they do there poor diet is what got them over weight in the first place. Weight loss supplements have been around a long time like i said look for ones with the ingredients i listed for those ingredients are all from plants and are all natural. i will leave it as that because i am as u are not in favor of using fat loss supplements because i believe good discipline is enough to loose fat, but i only made a suggestion if he wants to take one what he should look for.



Read my post again. I mentioned creatine as an example of a supplement with low long-term risks. I NEVER suggested the OP or anyone use it to lose weight.

you took that qoute out of context, i wasnt saying anyhting about creatine as a weight loss supplement i was commenting on how its not actually so safe, and it cant cause allot of damage when used in the wrong way. also there is no proof of creatine not ahving any long term effects. creatine has only been out on the market for supplementation for about 10 years, there hasnt been anyone who has takin it for longer so its impossible to know if there are any long term effects.


People such as the OP should take up brisk walking at this point. And I never said he should avoid running.


you did not say he couldnt run but you suggested that he shouldnt. Birsk walkin wont do tha tmuch, brisk walking has not beneficial affecton the body unless you hit your target heart rate when your walking, which would mean your actually speed walking, and if your doing that then thats fine but i would rather just jog. OP said he doesnt like running because it causes problems, he also stated he has flat feet, guess what thats the big problem. when you have flat feet it means your planter fascia(arch of foot) is not in the shape it should be. YOur planter fascia so the shock absorber of your foot, if u have problems here all the shock not absorbed by it will move upwars to your knees, back, neck, hips etc. to correct this problem i suggest getting a good pair of shoes with some arch to correct the shape of your plantar fascia, if you go to road runner they have a machine that will measure your foot and pick the best shoes for you to correct your flat footedness is thats even a word.


Time and time again, I've seen people focus on calorie reduction. Inevitably, ALL they think about is food. I call it the forbidden fruit effect. Convince someone he can't have something (cheeseburger, ice cream, etc.) and I promise you he will obsess over it. Misery soon follows. And the cravings win.

It's better to focus on a cleaner diet and change your outlook in which bad foods are no longer desired. And then, the calorie reduction will take place subconsciously. Again, it's a matter of working on the fundamentals before trying to apply any finishing touches.

ok i said loawer calories, which entail means change the diet so you consume lower amounts of calories. i am all for him changing his diet. but by changing your diet to more healthy food you do what....lower your calories and fat consumption. so we are pretty much saying the same thing in different ways. also just a thought he ate all healthy food but still consumed the same amount of calories as he burned he would not loose weight. so key rule change your diet so that you take in less calories than you burn if not you wont loose weight, you may even gain weight from the muscle you are adding.


The last I checked, neither the OP nor anyone else has asked you for advice. Read some of the weight training posts that I responded to in the Training and Nutrition forum. Note how the members express gratitude and address questions towards me.

The reality is, you and those of your ilk represent the mis-information one must endure in hopes of gaining anything helpful.

Every so often I tell myself contributing here is a waste of time and money; then I run into fools such as you. So in that regard, you serve a useful purpose. Even manure can be used as fertilizer.


ok first this is a message board, by OP posting a question in this message board he in turn actually asks everyone on this message board for advice. Second please dont insult me like im some 5 year old, just because you have been on this message board longer does not give you the authority to insult me and tell me im mis-informed or un-intelligent. So OP please take my comments into consideration, there is no way you will loose fat without lowering your calorie consumption under the amount of calories you burn i garantee it, you can search online and it will say the same thing, like i suggested only lower your calories by 100 to 200 less than what you burn. heres a helpfull article on fat and muscle
http://www.myfit.ca/archives/viewanarticle.asp?table=fitness&ID=67
Again if anyone has any questions about anything i said please post them here and i will happily clarify. thanks. also to LifeIsSuffering please dont insult me im only debating my points against yours. also if you think i am a person that doesnt know what i am talking about or any of that i am a kinesiology major, ive taken countless nutrition, weight training, prevention of injury, cardio training, etc etc. classes so i believe i do deserve a little bit of credibility when it comes to this area or learning. No i do not have my master sor doctorate yet but i am on track to getting them. so please dont say im un-intelligent or mis-informed because if i was so idiotic than i wouldnt have such a high grade point average. thanks for reading the really long post.

LifeIsSuffering please dont insult me im only debating my points against yours. also if you think i am a person that doesnt know what i am talking about or any of that i am a kinesiology major, ive taken countless nutrition, weight training, prevention of injury, cardio training, etc etc. classes so i believe i do deserve a little bit of credibility when it comes to this area or learning. No i do not have my master sor doctorate yet but i am on track to getting them. so please dont say im un-intelligent or mis-informed because if i was so idiotic than i wouldnt have such a high grade point average. thanks for reading the really long post.

You earned those insults.

From your very first reply in this thread to this, you've changed your tune. Why? Because I called bullsh!t on it.

And as far as taking these classes and your gpa, I don't care. I DO care about incomplete or incorrect information you spray and subsequently fall back to the diploma you're about to earn.

Even after you get your diploma, you will be judged on how you make people's lives better.

When you become an adult - not in terms of age - but in terms of life experience, you'll know better than to shot gun a bunch of advice, write off any mistakes you make as an unfortunate statistic, and write off correct advice of myself or others as simple luck.

Drop garbage like you did earlier and I will ridicule you.

i didnt earn any insults i stated some advice. i proved my points so you saying you called b.s. on me menas nothing, i proved my points so nothing i said was b.s. maybe my first post were a little un-detailed but not b.s. at all. You say you dont care about what classes ive taken or my GPA, its just a reflection of my learning, and that i have some credibility in this area of study, for its my major. so please stop insulting me and saying my posts are garbage when i clearly proved my points and see no other debates from you other than saying my posts are garbage and that when i grow up in terms of experience, first off you dont know me , i have a pretty good amount of experience working with clients, from people trying to loose weight to top level athletes coming to me for training. so if you have anything else about what i have said other than insults please feel free to add or correct me if im wrong about any of my points. but please stop insulting me thats childish.

i didnt earn any insults i stated some advice. i proved my points so you saying you called b.s. on me menas nothing, i proved my points so nothing i said was b.s. maybe my first post were a little un-detailed but not b.s. at all. You say you dont care about what classes ive taken or my GPA, its just a reflection of my learning, and that i have some credibility in this area of study, for its my major. so please stop insulting me and saying my posts are garbage when i clearly proved my points and see no other debates from you other than saying my posts are garbage and that when i grow up in terms of experience, first off you dont know me , i have a pretty good amount of experience working with clients, from people trying to loose weight to top level athletes coming to me for training. so if you have anything else about what i have said other than insults please feel free to add or correct me if im wrong about any of my points. but please stop insulting me thats childish.


Read this thread from start to finish. Oh wait, now that you've been caught in your idiocy, you continue to make feeble attempts rather than making concessions. Now that's childish.

You've lost objectivity on this one. Keep responding in your impotent manner. The longer this thread stays active, the more people will view your lack of credibility.

Read this thread from start to finish. Oh wait, now that you've been caught in your idiocy, you continue to make feeble attempts rather than making concessions. Now that's childish.

You've lost objectivity on this one. Keep responding in your impotent manner. The longer this thread stays active, the more people will view your lack of credibility.



im not ganna argue with you over nothing, if you have anything to counter my information that i stated please post it if not im not ganna go through a argument over who can insult who. OP you have seen lots of facts and points, take what you will from your topic. hope i gave you some helpful information.

Less heat, guys....

If the tempers get too high, regardless of the information presented, you'll lose your audience and there goes ANY effectiveness in your goal of presenting accurate information....

Less heat, guys....

If the tempers get too high, regardless of the information presented, you'll lose your audience and there goes ANY effectiveness in your goal of presenting accurate information....

sorry didnt mean to let it get out of hand.

No worries, just a gentle reminder ;)