Road Cycling - Light tourer advice: Gunnar or Surly?

Hi. I'm new here and my intro is in the Intro Forum. Basically, I'm in the market for a light tourer for fitness. I may work up to club rides or perhaps centuries, but I'll never be a randonneur rider or competitive racer. I don't want an aggressive racer or heavy tourer. I do want it lively enough that it is pretty quick. I also want a bike that is versatile enought that, if I want to put on racks and load it a bit, I can. BTW, I've already decided on steel (I apologize if that's a flame subject ;) ). Finally, I want this bike to last 10+ years. I have no intention of doing this again soon.

If my budget were unlimited, I'd call Waterford and order a RS or RSE with Dura Ace and move on. But I've imposed a $1,500 budget on this. Here's my narrowed down choices:

1. Surly Pacer - $400 frame (with fork). Outfitted with 105 it'll be $1,100.
2. Gunnar Sport - $825 frame (with fork). Outfitted with 105 it'll be $1,500
3. Used Paramount (circa 1990) - $400 but badly needs good paint job. With Paint job and 105, it'll be around $1,400.

I'm leaning toward the Gunnar. I decided on a 105 gruppo because I consistantly read that 105 and Ultegra are a lot closer in quality than they are in price.

Any advice and criticism is appreciated.

Hi,
the Gunnar is made by Waterford. I have ridden the Sport, which is their lite tourer, and may yet buy it. Having said that, you should ride a few bikes, and try to get a feel for what you like. How tall are you? The Sport is less than ideal for heavy guys over 6'. Among your other choices....
Romulus ..http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/bikes_romulusframes.html
Specialized Seqouia, Bianchi (a couple of them), and others. I would not use a tire smaller than the Rivendell Roly Poly (27c)
for touring. On tour, I will eventually be using their Ruffy Tuffy. I mention this, in part, because I was not aware Paramount made touring bikes. A performance bike is not the best choice for touring. I push the envelope a little by using tires under 30c; but it has been working ok so far.

Hi,
the Gunnar is made by Waterford. I have ridden the Sport, which is their lite tourer, and may yet buy it. Having said that, you should ride a few bikes, and try to get a feel for what you like. How tall are you? The Sport is less than ideal for heavy guys over 6'. Among your other choices....
Romulus ..http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/bikes_romulusframes.html
Specialized Seqouia, Bianchi (a couple of them), and others. I would not use a tire smaller than the Rivendell Roly Poly (27c)
for touring. On tour, I will eventually be using their Ruffy Tuffy. I mention this, in part, because I was not aware Paramount made touring bikes. A performance bike is not the best choice for touring. I push the envelope a little by using tires under 30c; but it has been working ok so far.
Thanks, late. Answers to your reply:

- I'm 6' on the nose. Easily over 240 lbs (part of the reason I'm doing this)
- I plan to ride on 28c tires. Seems like a good compromise size for road fitness riding.
- I have the same concerns about the Paramount racing characteristics. Its just such a high quality lugged frame for only $400 that I can't ignore its availability
- Rivendell puts me over budget, but I do like the Romulus. I really want to be disciplined (to the degree I can! :D ) with this.
- I rode the Bianchi Volpe - - - feels cumbersome, IMHO. I have not ridden any other Bianchi bikes. The Volpe turned me off to Bianchi.
- I rode the Sequoia (along with its competitors, the Cannondale R500 Sport and Trek 1000C) - - - nice rides (I preferred the Cannondale, BTW), but they won't take a tire larger than 28c (perhaps not more than 26c in the Specialized and Cannondale).

Hi,
I would call Gunnar, ask if the Sport will work. I think it's the fork that is the limiting factor, and that can be changed.
Try some of the other Bianchis, they are very nice bikes. You also ought to take a look at the Trek 520. It's slow, but it's a real touring bike right out of the box. If you wind up getting it, there are some parts you will want to swap out while it's new (cheaper that way). I went thorugh all this last year. Wound up buying a 3 year old frame that had been sitting in a warehouse. I think your first instinct is the best option; but with 105 instead of Durace.

Soma is another framshop making good value light/sport touring frames.
http://www.somafab.com/extrasmoothie.html
From what I hear its comparable with the Surley, but may be lighter.

Last spring I was in much the same situatoin as you are -- looking for a new steel bike, and having somewhat the same goals in mind. After shopping and riding lots of bikes for a couple of months I settled on a new Gunnar 'Roadie' with 105 components ad 25c tires. Living here in SE Wisconsin, I was able to go over to the Waterford/Gunnar factory (in Waterford, WI) and get a tour, talk to some folks, and try a couple of their bikes. Anyway, I bought the frame last summer, got it built up by a LBS (which is owned and operated by a former Waterford frame builder, incidentally), and put a little over 800 miles on it so far (for me that's a long way!) I'm very happy. While I was shopping, I rode the both the Gunnar Sport and the Roadie and settled on the Roadie for my needs. Since that time, they have redesigned the Roadie and made it more of a racing bike with a noticeably stiffer (rougher riding) frame and different geometry. I've ridden on of the new ones in a size close to mine, and much prefer my older model. If I were going to buy today, I would definitely get the Sport. These Gunnar frames may be one of the best bargains around. They are made by the same guys that make the significantly more expensive Waterford frames, using the same steel. The TIG welding is beautifully done, and the finish is excellent. They'll also do a full Waterford finish (hand rubbed color and clearcoat) for you if you want to pay little extra. Everything except the lugs! Enjoy your shopping, and your rides. Let us know what you decide to buy.

As you can see, I will vote for the Paramount. If you keep an eye on eBay you will be able to purchase a complete Paramount for around $5-600. It will not need anything more than a major tune-up to insure it is ready to ride. Then you can put a few goodies on, like STI shifters, if it does not all ready have, and still be under $1000. If you want to go nuts here is what you can end up with. Full Record 10-speed, CK headset, PW BB, carbon fork. I started out at 235 and am now down to 200. Paramounts are terrific bikes. I did the Bike Tour of Colorado two years ago on my Paramount and it was a great ride. You can always date your Paramount by reading the serial number on the bottom of the BB shell and then looking up under 'velorotica' on the Waterford website. BTW, mine was repainted by Waterford a few years ago. Let us know what you decide.

These Gunnar frames may be one of the best bargains around. They are made by the same guys that make the significantly more expensive Waterford frames, using the same steel. The TIG welding is beautifully done, and the finish is excellent.
That's precisely the conclusion I came to. I ordered the Gunnar yesterday. Here's my thread (http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=42068) about getting the bike. For the money, I just couldn't beat it.

As you can see, I will vote for the Paramount. If you keep an eye on eBay you will be able to purchase a complete Paramount for around $5-600. It will not need anything more than a major tune-up to insure it is ready to ride. Then you can put a few goodies on, like STI shifters, if it does not all ready have, and still be under $1000. If you want to go nuts here is what you can end up with. Full Record 10-speed, CK headset, PW BB, carbon fork. I started out at 235 and am now down to 200. Paramounts are terrific bikes. I did the Bike Tour of Colorado two years ago on my Paramount and it was a great ride. You can always date your Paramount by reading the serial number on the bottom of the BB shell and then looking up under 'velorotica' on the Waterford website. BTW, mine was repainted by Waterford a few years ago. Let us know what you decide.
That's a beautiful bike. Obviously a custom paint job. Why didn't you have Waterford decal it with the "Schwinn" and "Paramount" decals? I've always liked the "Paramount" decal on the top bar in the big font that they used.

I have to admit, that Paramount frame really tugged at me. In the end, I wanted the more relaxed frame for fitness rides. That doesn't mean that I won't be surfing Ebay on occasion! ;) And, BTW, I hope I'm as successful as you've been with the weight loss. That's one of my big motivations.

MisterCindy - Funny that would mention the decals. Look closely and you will see that it does, indeed, have the correct '87 Paramount decals done in black. Very easy to pick up with in real life, but dosen't show up well in the photo. The funny story is that I had to argue with Waterford to put on my bike. In fact, they wouldn't do it at first and called to discuss a couple of times before they relented. Mine was only the third or fourth similar paint job and they hadn't done decals on the others and thought it would look bad. However, in real life it looks great!!!. And, they called after they were through to say that they also thought it looked great and were going to recommend on this paint in the future. The steel fork was done to match at the same time.

Have fun with your Gunnar. But it will be happier with Campy.

mistercindy,

I recently bought a Rivendell Romulus. Sounds like it might fit your bill. Cost $1,550 for complete bike minus saddle, pedals, bar tape and shipping.

This bike will last you 10 years and more, probably a lifetime. The lugged steel frame is lighter weight than you'd expect and is gorgeous. Shimano 105 throughout (except for crank, on purpose), including hubs and headset.

The best feature, though, is the frame sizing. Rivendell has an accurate sizing system based on one simple measurement (floor to pubic bone) that they tell you how to take. End result: you finally get a frame that fits correctly and allows you to raise the handlebars to a comfortable height.

Spend the slightly extra $$$ and get a bike you'll be happy with, mainly because it fits. I also enjoy Rivendell's whole outlook on cycling, but that's another story. Check their Web site at www.rivbike.com.

mistercindy,

I recently bought a Rivendell Romulus. Sounds like it might fit your bill. Cost $1,550 for complete bike minus saddle, pedals, bar tape and shipping.

This bike will last you 10 years and more, probably a lifetime. The lugged steel frame is lighter weight than you'd expect and is gorgeous. Shimano 105 throughout (except for crank, on purpose), including hubs and headset.

The best feature, though, is the frame sizing. Rivendell has an accurate sizing system based on one simple measurement (floor to pubic bone) that they tell you how to take. End result: you finally get a frame that fits correctly and allows you to raise the handlebars to a comfortable height.

Spend the slightly extra $$$ and get a bike you'll be happy with, mainly because it fits. I also enjoy Rivendell's whole outlook on cycling, but that's another story. Check their Web site at www.rivbike.com.
I think the whole Rivendell scene is appealing and I really thought about ordering a Romulus. I went with Gunnar for a number of reasons:

1. Like the Romulus, its steel.
2. The price, I got it for $1,350 (less saddle and pedals), which is several hundred dollars less than I should have gotten it. That's thanks to my LBS's relationship with the Waterford people. I got a really good deal.
3. The Gunnar/Waterford customer service is outstanding. I've had email questions responded to by Richard Schwinn personally.
4. The LBS I'm using has a tight relationship with the Schwinn family who own Waterford/Gunnar (he used to work at Schwinn in Waterford).
5. The LBS spent a fair amount of time measuring me, etc..., and going over his numbers with the folks at Gunnar - - - again, great customer service. And this bike will fit.
6. No local person (Dallas area) has a Rivendell connection. The closest Romulus dealer is in Austin. That local connection, to me anyway, is nice.
7. Like the Romulus, the Gunnar Sport is versatile. It'll handle 32mm tires and will accept fenders if I so choose.
8. Finally, and most importantly, its a helluva frame that'll last me a decade or longer of hard riding.

Good luck with your Romulus! Its a heckuva bike!

Sounds like you made a logical, informed decision. Actually, Waterford used to build Rivendell's custom frames and still makes their Heron bikes, I think. I know Rivendell has a close, personal relationship with the Schwinns based on what I've read in the Rivendell Reader.

Anyway, when do we get a photo of your new bike, or don't you have it yet? Guess it's still being built for you. Good luck and enjoy riding in or near Dallas, my home town.

Sounds like you made a logical, informed decision. Actually, Waterford used to build Rivendell's custom frames and still makes their Heron bikes, I think. I know Rivendell has a close, personal relationship with the Schwinns based on what I've read in the Rivendell Reader.

Anyway, when do we get a photo of your new bike, or don't you have it yet? Guess it's still being built for you. Good luck and enjoy riding in or near Dallas, my home town.
I believe that's right. I checked out Heron, too. Just a bit out of my price range, but they look real nice. I did read somewhere in my web browsing that Grant Peterson and the Schwinn family know each other pretty well. I got the feeling that the higher end steel frame business is a pretty small world.

And no, I don't have it yet. It'll be a couple of weeks. My LBS guy told me that Waterford is now producing a new batch of 58cm frames. Apparently they have a stock of 56cm. Hey....a few weeks for a bike to fit is fine by me. I plan to be riding this thing for years. ;)

I just bought my Waterford RSE-11 used, in excellent condition, for about $450 shipped. So far I have way less than $1000 in it with Campy Veloce group with Chorus wheels. My goal is $1200 complete. Try ebay and type in Waterford. They don't seem to hold their value as well as the newer Ti or Carbon fiber bikes. They will last a heck of a lot longer though.

Tim

surly

Wow! After 16 months my thread has been resurrected! Just so you know, I bought the Gunnar Sport. Helluva nice bike. I did spring for a Waterford paint since all the Gunnar paint schemes were, IMHO, not too good.

I got a Sport myself, just a couple weeks ago.

Actually, Waterford used to build Rivendell's custom frames and still makes their Heron bikes, I think.

The Waterfofd factory is the old Paramount plant.Richard Schwinn is the head of the company. They build Heron frames, but Grant Petereson sold the Heron marque to a company in LaSalle, IL a few years ago. So, Waterford builds Herons, but not for Rivendell.

I may be a tad late to this thread. I am about to get a really nice custom road rig...too nice for words, but my "utility bike" for getting around town, locking on the street, riding in bad weather so far has been a Marin Larkspur. Which has been pretty good to me, but is starting to feel rather heavy and clunky so I've been thinking about trying to replace it with a more nimble road-like bike that is relatively economical and still able to take a beating:

searching the back threads, I seem to see the following mentioned quite often:

1. Gunnar sport/roadie
2. Surly cross check or pacer
3. Soma Smoothie
4. (ominous music).....Pedal Force ZX3

From looking at all of these - my gist is: the gunnar likely has much nicer workmanship compared with the other steel bikes. The pedal force...guess that is really a racing bike but hey...it's cheap.
These wouuld all be built up with 105 lvl components...maybe a carbon fork if I have leftover money to splurge.

Does the Gunnar ride relatively zippy compared with the soma/surly?

I don't know if you were aware but there are two Soma Smoothies, the Smoothie which is a road race type bike and the Smoothie ES which is more of a "sport" road bike which can more easily accommodate a rack, maybe panniers wide tires with fenders.

I haven't test-ridden either the Smoothie ES or the Gunnar Sport but what jumps out at me is the difference in their bottom bracket drops, wheelbase and chainstay length; the ES has a higher bb drop, shorter wheelbase and shorter chainstays. It should accelerate and turn more quickly though I haven't test-ridden either.

That pedal force bike's geometry is a road race type. Nothing like the Smoothie ES or Gunnar Sport.

you have got it backwards. the es has the longer wheelbase. it is also set up for long reach brakes


I don't know if you were aware but there are two Soma Smoothies, the Smoothie which is a road race type bike and the Smoothie ES which is more of a "sport" road bike which can more easily accommodate a rack, maybe panniers wide tires with fenders.

I haven't test-ridden either the Smoothie ES or the Gunnar Sport but what jumps out at me is the difference in their bottom bracket drops, wheelbase and chainstay length; the ES has a higher bb drop, shorter wheelbase and shorter chainstays. It should accelerate and turn more quickly though I haven't test-ridden either.

That pedal force bike's geometry is a road race type. Nothing like the Smoothie ES or Gunnar Sport.

No, no, I was comparing the Smoothie ES to the Gunnar Sport. The Smoothie ES has a shorter wheelbase, shorter chainstays etc. than the Gunnar Sport though they are both "sport" road bikes, set up for long reach brakes.

Any thoughts about the Jamis Aurora? There are two models to chose from.

I was just looking around at bikes like this over the weekend.

The Gunnar is certainly a nice frame; there are some other options -

Some thoughts:

- Two nice steel bikes at around $1500 are the Salsa Casserroll complete and the Jamis Aurora Elite. Both come with triples if you are interested. The Elite is more a touring bike; but both seem suitable for all-round riding, centuries, commuting and light touring. Just not racing.

- Right now the value of the British pound has dropped against the U.S. dollar. If I were in the market right now I'd consider a Bob Jackson World Touring frame - under $500 US (you have to take 17% off the prices on their website; if you have the bike shipped to the US you don't pay VAT).

- Here's a really reasonably priced builder that I'd consider as an alternative to a Gunnar; a little less money and you can get the color/geometry you want:

http://www.curtlo.com/about_curtlo.html

why 105 when you can go rival for about the same price?

I have a Gunnar Sport and love it.

I know this thread is ancient but I thought I'd mention that all of the OPs criteria could have been met by purchasing an old high-quality 531 steel frame. I had the same requirements as the OP and ended up using a 1972 Masi Gran Criterium built up with modern Ultegra components. Very cheap and rides like a dream. Comfy enough geometry to carry a small load but still sporty enough to have won the Tour de France back in its day.

Raleigh just came out with a very nice bike with a beautiful brooks saddle...Its classic in every regard of looks. I would look at the Sojourn. It has disc brakes :)

I have a couple of thousand miles on my Gunnar Sport.
Running a triple with 11x28 and 700x32 Specialized CX-Pro tires.
I can go just about anywhere, and the ride is pretty cushy.
Admittedly, those big tires cost me a little speed, but I love being able to change my route and ride someplace a standard roadie wouldn't.

700x32 Specialized CX-Pro tires..
I can go just about anywhere, and the ride is pretty cushy.

Do you mean these (http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?minisite=10029&xsrc=dealtime&spid=35672)? What caliper brakes are you running and do you still have room for fenders?

I was thinking about doing a build based on the Gunnar Sport but then erred toward the Specialized Tricross Sport which I now rather regret :(.

I have Shimano long reach brakes on my Gunnar Sport. It will take fenders and
a 28c tire. Without fenders they say you can get a 32 in, but I have a 32 in there and there's tons of room. The roads around here are getting crappy, and I am thinking of trying a 35. Of course, the Schwalbe 35 I am thinking of actually measures out to 32c.

I have a Gunnar Crosshairs. It's a fantastic bike, and I'm glad I bought it. It's a couple pounds lighter than the Surly Crosscheck, and yes, the workmanship is fantastic.

That said, I bought it because of a) the frame geometry, b) oversized tubing and c) I'm an elitist weenie that wanted a handbuilt steel bike.

I bet I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it and any production frame that used remotely the same tubing in a blind test.

I'm glad to see this post back again. Lot's of usefull info for real world riders on a budget.

105 and rival are about equivalent?

The Dawes Audax bikes are very nice- best choice for a one size fits all sporty/light touring/clubrun/century bike. That said, the suggestion of rebuilding a nice old steel frame that fits you is just as good, and could be good fun. Reynolds 501 tubing is nearly as good as 531, so don't discount them too.

Lets see, and old steel frame of that sort built up with 105 components, with a triple chainring and close ratio cassette, Mavic CXP 23 rims on 105 hubs, 36 spokes rear, 32 front, spd pedals. Then you can have some Conti GP 4000s for flying around on a clubrun, and some 28c tyres for touring. Full length narrow mudguards, Brooks saddle, you could make an awesome bike up.

The Dawes Audax bikes are very nice- best choice for a one size fits all sporty/light touring/clubrun/century bike. That said, the suggestion of rebuilding a nice old steel frame that fits you is just as good, and could be good fun. Reynolds 501 tubing is nearly as good as 531, so don't discount them too.

Lets see, and old steel frame of that sort built up with 105 components, with a triple chainring and close ratio cassette, Mavic CXP 23 rims on 105 hubs, 36 spokes rear, 32 front, spd pedals. Then you can have some Conti GP 4000s for flying around on a clubrun, and some 28c tyres for touring. Full length narrow mudguards, Brooks saddle, you could make an awesome bike up.

I certainly like the sound of that.