Is it just the Detroit suburbs, or do cars make people mean in general?

[brotherdan]

Yesterday I did a long ride of close to double century length. I started out in Ann Arbor at 1 or 2 am, after leaving a party. I biked through the night, taking Pontiac trail through Orchard Lake, and then on through Auburn Hills, Pontiac, Rochester Hills, Utica, etc... I arrived at Marine City, Michigan around eight in the morning. Then I turned around and more or less retraced my steps home.

On the ride out, I had few problems. There was virtually no traffic while it was still dark, though things really started to pick up when I was riding east on 26 mile in the last few miles before Marine City.

On the way home, though, traffic was really heavy. I took 23 mile instead of 26 mile for a couple of hours, and I couldn't believe how many people were driving around on a Saturday afternoon. There are no shoulders on most of the roads in that part of the state, so I had to ride in traffic most of the time, and man were those drivers pissed off to have to be slowed down for a couple of seconds! I was getting yelled at or honked at by every second or third car for most of the afternoon. I was being as polite as possible, pulling into turning lanes, biking on lanes that were under construction, and getting out of the way as much as I could to allow traffic to pass. But I felt a genuine hatred and anger from most of the people in the area. One guy slowed down to match my pace in his big, white chevy truck. He rode along side me for a few seconds, calling me an ******* and shaking his fist in my face. I didn't have anything thrown at me yesterday, which is actually kind of surprising, as it isn't unusual for that to happen around here.

To people that bike a lot in southeastern Michigan, this is really nothing new. I've toured around a lot of the country, and I've always felt that the metropolitan area between Toledo and Bay City is one of the worst for cycling. But yesterday took it to a whole new level. Maybe it's the high gas prices or the crappy job market that has everybody on edge around here, but people are getting really mean.

So I'm planning on returning to the area next week, and as often as possible in the future. I really hate biking around there for a variety of reasons. But I figure I must be doing something right if I'm pissing off that many motorists! Next weekend I'm riding to St. Clair from Ann Arbor. Anyone that wants to ride along with me is welcome. I could use the backup if things start to get ugly again.

[John Wilke]

I think that people, in general, have lost much of their patience. Everything is faster, quicker, easier. I have to confess, even I lost my patience in traffic yesterday after it took me 3+ hours to drive 100 miles into downtown Chicago (one way!). There are nice people out there yet, however. Just try to not let the idiots ruin your ride.

(yes, yes, I'm editing pics right now ... hang on)

[fishtoes2000]

Yes, the sprawling Metro Detroit townships commonly have very poor bicycle opportunities. Their major roads are owned by their respective county road commissions who refuse to acknowledge much less implement best practices for bicycle facility design.

And unfortunately for you, your route goes right through the heart of this area.

You might be better off heading west from Ann Arbor to Detroit then north along Lake St. Clair.

[brotherdan]

I did a google maps check, and I've found that taking eight mile to m97 to gratiot is a more direct route. There will probably be a lot of stop and go on gratiot, with all of the traffic lights, and such. But at least it is a wider road. I think I'll take that route next time and see how it works.

[DougG]

Ann Arbor to Marine City and back? Wow -- I'm definitely impressed!

One of the problems with SE Michigan in general is that so many roads are still treated as though they're semi-rural and have higher speed limits than you find elsewhere in a metro area. It's one thing for a motorist to be going 35mph and be held up for a few seconds by a bike going 20. But on roads with a 45mph limit and cars mostly going 55, it does create a jam if there's a bicycle in the lane and no way to get around. I really work to avoid getting myself into that situation since I don't like holding people up and having an SUV sitting on my rear wheel!

I live in Rochester Hills and avoid going out on Saturday afternoons (in my car, no less) because of the traffic volume. Worst day of the week, IMO. If you get back out this way again, you should take the Clinton River Trail, which you can jump onto in Auburn Hills and take all the way out to Romeo (32 Mile) and get onto some less-crowded roads. Most of it is paved, and all is ridable on a road bike.

Of course, Macomb County is being developed (or at least was) and for all I know 32 Mile is now lined by strip malls and subdivisions...

[fishtoes2000]

I would not recommend 8 Mile for biking. Seven Mile or McNichols are better for better east-west travel. The half-mile roads (e.g. Curtis, Pembroke) have lower traffic volumes but have breaks in them.

Michigan and Gratiot Avenues *within* Detroit are great options. Outer Drive and Oakman Boulevards are two of the SW to NE routes around. You can pick up Outer Drive from Hines Drive or by shortcutting across W. Chicago.

[Ih8lucky13]

You would have to be insane to cycle on Gratiot north of 8 mile.

[Road Fan]

Yesterday I did a long ride of close to double century length. I started out in Ann Arbor at 1 or 2 am, after leaving a party. I biked through the night, taking Pontiac trail through Orchard Lake, and then on through Auburn Hills, Pontiac, Rochester Hills, Utica, etc... I arrived at Marine City, Michigan around eight in the morning. Then I turned around and more or less retraced my steps home.

On the ride out, I had few problems. There was virtually no traffic while it was still dark, though things really started to pick up when I was riding east on 26 mile in the last few miles before Marine City.

On the way home, though, traffic was really heavy. I took 23 mile instead of 26 mile for a couple of hours, and I couldn't believe how many people were driving around on a Saturday afternoon. There are no shoulders on most of the roads in that part of the state, so I had to ride in traffic most of the time, and man were those drivers pissed off to have to be slowed down for a couple of seconds! I was getting yelled at or honked at by every second or third car for most of the afternoon. I was being as polite as possible, pulling into turning lanes, biking on lanes that were under construction, and getting out of the way as much as I could to allow traffic to pass. But I felt a genuine hatred and anger from most of the people in the area. One guy slowed down to match my pace in his big, white chevy truck. He rode along side me for a few seconds, calling me an ******* and shaking his fist in my face. I didn't have anything thrown at me yesterday, which is actually kind of surprising, as it isn't unusual for that to happen around here.

To people that bike a lot in southeastern Michigan, this is really nothing new. I've toured around a lot of the country, and I've always felt that the metropolitan area between Toledo and Bay City is one of the worst for cycling. But yesterday took it to a whole new level. Maybe it's the high gas prices or the crappy job market that has everybody on edge around here, but people are getting really mean.

So I'm planning on returning to the area next week, and as often as possible in the future. I really hate biking around there for a variety of reasons. But I figure I must be doing something right if I'm pissing off that many motorists! Next weekend I'm riding to St. Clair from Ann Arbor. Anyone that wants to ride along with me is welcome. I could use the backup if things start to get ugly again.

Damn, brotherdan, that is an awesome ride! You probably know, the driver behavior is somewhat better around Ann Arbor. I've noticed cavalier attitudes towards cycling among co-workers at times, I'm not too surprised at what you experienced.

Lemme ask, why become a one-man crusade? You could become a martyr, and I bet there are a few people who would not be made happier if you did. There are battles you cannot win.

Road Fan

[brotherdan]

I would not recommend 8 Mile for biking. Seven Mile or McNichols are better for better east-west travel. The half-mile roads (e.g. Curtis, Pembroke) have lower traffic volumes but have breaks in them.

Michigan and Gratiot Avenues *within* Detroit are great options. Outer Drive and Oakman Boulevards are two of the SW to NE routes around. You can pick up Outer Drive from Hines Drive or by shortcutting across W. Chicago.

I actually think 8 mile is a pretty good bike route. I took it from Detroit to Northville a couple of weeks ago, and liked the overpasses that allow you to avoid traffic lights. That's one of my main concerns with biking in Detroit and the suburbs, so many traffic lights.

Yes, traffic volume is intense, but there are enough lanes to allow traffic to safely pass.

[brotherdan]

You would have to be insane to cycle on Gratiot north of 8 mile.

I biked Gratiot from 23 mile basically all the way to Michigan Ave on a tour in 2004. I didn't have any problems that I can remember. There were a lot of traffic lights, so that was irritating. But it was fine otherwise.

[brotherdan]

Lemme ask, why become a one-man crusade? You could become a martyr, and I bet there are a few people who would not be made happier if you did. There are battles you cannot win.

Road Fan

I don't know. I guess I'm not going to change anything by biking where I'm not wanted. But I hate to think that a couple of dozen jerks honking their horns would be enough to scare me away. I figure people might see me biking on the road that never thought that biking was even an option before. I had never heard of bicycle touring before I saw some loaded bikes while vacationing in Alaska. But a couple of years later I was heading out cross country on my own bicycle tour, at least partially inspired by those intrepid cyclists in the Alaskan wilderness.

[Road Fan]

I don't know. I guess I'm not going to change anything by biking where I'm not wanted. But I hate to think that a couple of dozen jerks honking their horns would be enough to scare me away. I figure people might see me biking on the road that never thought that biking was even an option before. I had never heard of bicycle touring before I saw some loaded bikes while vacationing in Alaska. But a couple of years later I was heading out cross country on my own bicycle tour, at least partially inspired by those intrepid cyclists in the Alaskan wilderness.


Be inspired and be intrepid, but you are a lot mre valuable as a bike advocate with both legs working and intact, than in a worse condition. I'm not afraid of any road riding, myself, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna seek out hostile car drivers. Think like a revolutionary, where the first rule is to survive to strike the decisive blow.

[brotherdan]

I live in Rochester Hills and avoid going out on Saturday afternoons (in my car, no less) because of the traffic volume. Worst day of the week, IMO. If you get back out this way again, you should take the Clinton River Trail, which you can jump onto in Auburn Hills and take all the way out to Romeo (32 Mile) and get onto some less-crowded roads. Most of it is paved, and all is ridable on a road bike.

Of course, Macomb County is being developed (or at least was) and for all I know 32 Mile is now lined by strip malls and subdivisions...

I did cross the Clinton River Trail a couple of times along the way, and I did think about using it, but I didn't know where it went. I typically do not like riding on MUPs, though. Most trails are engineered such that they often cross road grades. Anytime a trail crosses a road, bikes have to stop and yield to traffic. This wastes a lot of time, imo, because if you were riding on a major road with a parallel course to the trail, you would not have to stop for nearly as many cross streets, due to green traffic lights. And then there is all the foot traffic, dog walkers, kids weaving around on bikes and rollerblades. All of this can slow you down significantly. I occasionally ride a five or six mile bike trail from Ann Arbor to Ypsilanti township when I am commuting on my fixie and want to avoid some major hills. But it can be really irritating on a sunny day when it seems that everyone wants to go out for a walk in the park. I had a similarly bad experience on the Interurban trail north of Milwaukee on a tour several summers ago. I took that trail from some outer suburbs most of the way into Milwaukee for close to thirty miles before I became totally fed up with stopping every half mile, or less, for cross streets, and having to ride slowly at all times due to lots of pedestrians. When I got back on the major roads it was rush hour traffic in dense urban and suburban neighborhoods, but I was still able to average close to 5mph faster on the major roads than I could on the bike path.

Also I don't like the idea of bike paths simply because they do separate bikes from traffic. Bikes have a right to use the same roads that cars do, but apparently many motorists don't understand this, or wish to ignore this fact. If all of the bikes that motorists ever see happen to be riding on sidewalks or isolated bike lanes, it only reinforces this perception, and it makes it more dangerous for cyclists that do choose to exercise their right to ride on the road, because people don't expect to see them there.

[wingnut]

You would have to be insane to cycle on Gratiot north of 8 mile.

Yikes! I could not imagine riding on Gratiot period.

[DougG]

Also I don't like the idea of bike paths simply because they do separate bikes from traffic. Bikes have a right to use the same roads that cars do, but apparently many motorists don't understand this, or wish to ignore this fact. If all of the bikes that motorists ever see happen to be riding on sidewalks or isolated bike lanes, it only reinforces this perception, and it makes it more dangerous for cyclists that do choose to exercise their right to ride on the road, because people don't expect to see them there.

LOL. Say no more. If I hadn't known you were from Ann Arbor by your registration listing, I could have guessed it from your message. :rolleyes:

[BrownBagginIt]

hey brother dan, I used to live just north of Ann Arbor, I'm wondering if you've gone between A2 and the grand rapids area, and have any suggestions on routes