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I'm far from an advocate, infact, I drive twice a week. Sometimes more, but usually twice a week. I shifted my commute to a train bike combo and ride from downtown to the base. Lately, with increased security, there's a line getting on base. At the entrance I use, people have been backed up for a good distance.
Last week and this week, people have taken to parking in the bike lane while waiting to get on base. I can understand the need to stay out of traffic, but a few cars really smash it in leaving just barely enough room, if not enough at all for me to get through. Perhaps because it's monday, or I'm simply tired of it; I knocked on a few windows to let folks know they are in a lane specified for me. I have a small amount of guilt about it, thinking it may have been over the top..
Opinions?
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William, I don't blame you, I might do the same thing. But it might be more effective to get the authorities to help you on this.
This really ticks me off, too; more than that, it could be dangerous for you.
CA Vehicle code states:
"21209. (a) No person shall drive a motor vehicle in a bicycle lane established on a roadway pursuant to Section 21207 except as follows: (1) To park where parking is permitted. (2) To enter or leave the roadway. (3) To prepare for a turn within a distance of 200 feet from the intersection. (b) This section does not prohibit the use of a motorized bicycle in a bicycle lane, pursuant to Section 21207.5, at a speed no greater than is reasonable or prudent, having due regard for visibility, traffic conditions, and the condition of the roadway surface of the bicycle lane, and in a manner which does not endanger the safety of bicyclists.
21211. (a) No person may stop, stand, sit, or loiter upon any class I bikeway, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 890.4 of the Streets and Highways Code, or any other public or private bicycle path or trail, if the stopping, standing, sitting, or loitering impedes or blocks the normal and reasonable movement of any bicyclist. (b) No person may place or park any bicycle, vehicle, or any other object upon any bikeway or bicycle path or trail, as specified in subdivision (a), which impedes or blocks the normal and reasonable movement of any bicyclist unless the placement or parking is necessary for safe operation or is otherwise in compliance with the law."
Take part in the new subdivision of the sport known as bike lane trials riding!
Thrill to see these daredevils cyclists bunny-hop on to hoods, trunks and roofs! See how skilfully they perform the chainring balance! Watch how they extricate themselves from torn convertible tops! See them write their names in the paintwork with their pedals! Look with awe and amazement how many holes they can put in a windscreen.
A stunning combination of skill, competition and performance art!
Coming soon! On an idiot near you!
Knocking doesn't really bother people and it doesn't teach any lesson.
Better to carry a disposable camera and get a quick shot in situ of those cars which have really bothered you. Send the pics to the police with a formal letter of complaint. Far more effective.
Send the pics to the police with a formal letter of complaint. Far more effective.
I'm not interested, nor infact, do I get paid to be a policeman. I have no desire to act on their behalf.
I have a small amount of guilt about it, thinking it may have been over the top..
I'm not interested, nor infact, do I get paid to be a policeman. I have no desire to act on their behalf.
I appreciate the politeness expressed in your first post -- there is a sense in which , as we live in an increasingly crowded world, we must allow the small burdens of sharing the road with others to shed off of our backs without confrontation. At the same time, you also note that the law entitles you to use of the bike lane and these people are not respecting your right to that use. Certainly, at some point when others show disrespect for your rights, you should not have to feel guilty about confronting them, and even turning them in for violating the law. I don't think that is doing police work anymore than it is anytime one makes a complaint to the police for protection of your rights. But, of course, none of us turn to the police for every little affront; the question simply is how far will you let them step on you before you won't allow it anymore.
I would feel very little guilt over rapping on the offenders' windows. In fact, I've done it myself. (My wedding ring makes a sharp "crack" sound that really gets their attention.)
It might be worth it to print out several copies of the Veh. Code sections you cited above. If you can keep moving and maintain your balance, just slip the copy under their windshield wipers and keep going. You'll inform them without having to get into a F2F.
I think knocking is very diplomatic. I mainly just scream at people, which is not. But I enjoy it. I have also thought that bike gloves with those small glass hammer tips fastened to the knuckles with CF would be a great product for those anti-social/anti-bad driver's windows types.
I have no desire to act on their behalf.
Are you anti-cop?
It might be worth it to print out several copies of the Veh. Code sections you cited above. If you can keep moving and maintain your balance, just slip the copy under their windshield wipers and keep going. You'll inform them without having to get into a F2F.
Hard to do fixed!
But, has been on my mind.
I have also thought that bike gloves with those small glass hammer tips fastened to the knuckles with CF would be a great product for those anti-social/anti-bad driver's windows types.
That's a great idea.
Are you anti-cop?
No. Not in particular. For the most part, I believe in letting those responsible do thier jobs with out interference.
I have also thought that bike gloves with those small glass hammer tips fastened to the knuckles with CF would be a great product for those anti-social/anti-bad driver's windows types.
Perhaps some of the less productive advice there is on this thread.
Originally Posted by temp1
I have also thought that bike gloves with those small glass hammer tips fastened to the knuckles with CF would be a great product for those anti-social/anti-bad driver's windows types.
Perhaps some of the less productive advice there is on this thread.
Please DO NOT take that as advice, its just something that makes me smile when I think about it.
It depends on if she's a brunette or redhead.
The cars have probably moved to the right to keep from blocking the road for other cars. Is this at 32nd street? Maybe a message to the Command Master Chief might get some results.
Nothing says you have to stay in the bikelane. If it's blocked by cars pass them on the other side. Knocking on windows and trying to educate them is fine, but are you going to do that with every single motorist that does it, and do you really think they care?
Contacting some authority may help, but I suspect this will also only ever be a temporary solution as well. Cars in the bikelane are a common problem on my route, and yes it does annoy me, but to be honest, it's not that hard to ride around them, so I try not to get too bothered by it.
Nothing says you have to stay in the bikelane. If it's blocked by cars pass them on the other side. Knocking on windows and trying to educate them is fine, but are you going to do that with every single motorist that does it, and do you really think they care?
Contacting some authority may help, but I suspect this will also only ever be a temporary solution as well. Cars in the bikelane are a common problem on my route, and yes it does annoy me, but to be honest, it's not that hard to ride around them, so I try not to get too bothered by it.
Probably the smartest thing posted in this thread. Most of my current commute actually has no bikelane, so where cars are parked in one, I just treat it like the rest of my bike-lane-less commute.
The more I think about it, the more I think trying to educate motorists is just a waste of time anyway. Most of them are either too stupid or too apathetic to actually get any message sent out in their direction. This is why I just call the cops when I get pushed "too far" (which is rare). I really think negative reinforcement is all 95% of the population understands.
Around here it is legal to park in the so called bike lanes. The city brags about having so many miles of bike lanes, when in fact all they have is a parking lane with a line along it with the occasional bike sign. Go figure.
William, I don't blame you, I might do the same thing. But it might be more effective to get the authorities to help you on this.
This really ticks me off, too; more than that, it could be dangerous for you.
William, I hope you know I meant that what ticks me off is not you, but people who park in bike lanes tick me off and it could be dangerous for you.
:D
I prefer not to knock or touch the vehicle. No matter how inconsiderate they are I don't do it. People these days are idiots and road rage is too scary on a bike. It wouldn't surprise me to hear about a motorist running down a cyclist after they were harassed by a cyclist.
William,
I have seen in your posts prior to this that you live here in San Diego, as I do. Judging by your post it sounds to me that you are entering 32nd St near the ship yard. Is this correct? If so, I would say trying to change the habits of the drivers lining up on the bike lane would be a no win battle which would only cause premature/permanent hair loss. Additionally, as one individual posted to contact the CMC, that again would be of no use as he has no jurisdiction over traffic flow and regulations. The only way to correct this is to have the city put up concrete barracades between the bike lane and car lane, good luck. I ride this route on Harbor Dr from downtown area nearly evey day and deal with the line of vehicles at 0630 and I prefer to just go to the left of them.
I am more bothered by the cars parked across from the ship yard that overlap 1/2 or more of the bike lane that I have to deal with when I go home.
Just curious where do you work?
What time do you normally enter the base?
I work at CPG-3 on 32nd St. Maybe sometime we can meet and discuss commuting horror stories.
John
It depends on if she's a brunette or redhead.
The cars have probably moved to the right to keep from blocking the road for other cars. Is this at 32nd street? Maybe a message to the Command Master Chief might get some results.
I've been considering that. I spoke to security at the gate, however, they said they've no say on it since it's a public street. Honestly, I feel no urge to push a gate gaurd to deal with it, as they've got a more important tasking.; I may speak to the watch captain, or otherwise to confirm that they can not help.
I prefer not to knock or touch the vehicle. No matter how inconsiderate they are I don't do it. People these days are idiots and road rage is too scary on a bike. It wouldn't surprise me to hear about a motorist running down a cyclist after they were harassed by a cyclist.
William,
I have seen in your posts prior to this that you live here in San Diego, as I do. Judging by your post it sounds to me that you are entering 32nd St near the ship yard. Is this correct? If so, I would say trying to change the habits of the drivers lining up on the bike lane would be a no win battle which would only cause premature/permanent hair loss. Additionally, as one individual posted to contact the CMC, that again would be of no use as he has no jurisdiction over traffic flow and regulations. The only way to correct this is to have the city put up concrete barracades between the bike lane and car lane, good luck. I ride this route on Harbor Dr from downtown area nearly evey day and deal with the line of vehicles at 0630 and I prefer to just go to the left of them.
I am more bothered by the cars parked across from the ship yard that overlap 1/2 or more of the bike lane that I have to deal with when I go home.
Just curious where do you work?
What time do you normally enter the base?
I work at CPG-3 on 32nd St. Maybe sometime we can meet and discuss commuting horror stories.
John
I've read a few of your post. Did you used to work on North Island? I remember meeting one bent rider on the ferry once.
I'm going to talk to security to make sure I've covered that point, and then perhaps I'll talk to the police. Really, I don't want people getting tickettes, just something to wake them up. I don't mind that they crowd the lane, it's the folks that completely block it. Riding fixed doesn't help in manuvers.
I'll PM you.
Nothing says you have to stay in the bikelane. If it's blocked by cars pass them on the other side.
This is my normal method, however, here, it can result in getting side swiped. I lane split on occasion, and I'm no chicken to play in traffic, but this isn't the place, people are focused on other things and regularly pick eachother off by accident.
I've been considering that. I spoke to security at the gate, however, they said they've no say on it since it's a public street. Honestly, I feel no urge to push a gate gaurd to deal with it, as they've got a more important tasking.; I may speak to the watch captain, or otherwise to confirm that they can not help.
Just ask the gate guard to warn the drivers that they are likely to get their car towed away. The guard can be courteous to the drivers without having to try to enforce anything.
Heck, I thought you were a lifer. I would use my rank (if I had any) to get the point across? Or, just glue some Captain bars to your helmet :D
I used to ride into Mayport and run into the same problems. If you are in the right, confront them and tell them to move their cars. If they want it to spill over, let it. Most of the people you run into I suspect are service workers, enlisted, and a few "0's", wouldn't they be friendly about it, or are west coast sailors still lackadaisical about military bearing/courtesy?
William, the vehicles you knocked on, did who ever was in them put the window down so you could speak to them? If you spoke to them were you polite in making your point about the bike lane? If you were then there's nothing to feel guilty about. Regardless of how they reacted to you. How did they react anyway?
By a base I assume you work at a military installation, either as a civilian or you are in the military yourself. Do these people work at the same base as you do? Or are these vehicles being back up other traffic as well? Either way you still have nothing to feel guilty about.
This is my normal method, however, here, it can result in getting side swiped. I lane split on occasion, and I'm no chicken to play in traffic, but this isn't the place, people are focused on other things and regularly pick eachother off by accident.
William,
The other somewhat ugly option is to ride that horrible sidewalk adjacent to the road, yes the sidewalk. There generally is little to no foot traffic on it and since it isn't in front of a business, there is no worry about people popping in front of you. I have done this in the past, then you just have to figure out how to deal with the curb drop off with your fixed gear.
This problem that William describes is very near and dear to my heart since I also deal with this very same road on a nearly daily basis.
Many people have replied with ideas of how to convince motorist not drive on this bike lane. I don't see this ever happening, were talking about California. No these service men/women and civilians driving on the bike lane have no regard for rank as if our rank actually meant anything on the public streets. This base entry is one of the secondary entrances with hundreds if not thousands of cars each day. There are two main lanes that tend to form into a third lane about 500 yards the the gate. I generally go to the left of the cars positioned on the lane but that puts me in the main traffic lane of fast passing cars in the dark. In addition to that when I get nearer to the intersection I am then between two rows of cars. This maneuver isn't too bad but certainly has some risks.
We could all stand at this corner for the rest of our lives to tell people not to ride on the bike lane and we would simply get old and ugly with no positive outcome. The only possible way that I feel you could prevent them from driving there is to put up a barracade. This happens to be in a very industrial area with many low life ship yard workers crossing the roads when ever they damn well feel. Very little regard for any traffic regulations, crossing the center median. Every day I can't wait till I get past this first mile to mile and half when I go home and last mile and one half when I go to work. Needless to say, I find this area very frustrating and I have tried many other routes and this one is still the best. Very unfortunate!
Wish us luck.
John
I'm with you William ,I quite often bash on the side of cars & doors of trucks if I feel that they are squeezing me up to the curb, a lot of times the drivers get a scare as they don't realise they are cutting you off & they move over , sometimes it starts an argument but who cares they're only brave when they are on the move & cocooned in their thin metal skin :p
If a car is stoped at a traffic jam & is too close to the curb I bash their side mirror out off line with my elbow & wave an "opps sorry!!". Hopefully next time they are waiting to turn they'l remember not to get too close to the curb. Driver education :D
Constantly, it sucks, always crashing, spyware, worms, viruses, and compared to Apple's speed, consistancy, stability, and appearance, Windoze seems to be about 5 years old, and I am talking about XP of course, not 95 97 or millenium or something, Windoze sucks
Well I'm really quite surprised to read posts from people who say that policing is not their responsibility and has nothing to do with them. Surely this cannot be good policy - either personally or communitywise. It is in all our interests to promote a sense of community and a sense or communal responsibility. In the UK, the police service is a civilian service (I am very pleased to say) and it is highly responsible to cooperate with the police - at least in small ways - and to take an interest in the quality of communal life. (I would also venture to say that it is highly decent as well).
I'm afraid that knocking on windows is calculated to be provocative and especially in the USA could well encourage violent retaliatory action - road rage incidents. In fact knocking on windows is itself just a form of roadrage.
Where does "it's not my responsibility" end? Do you allow your kids to litter the streets? Do you say nothing when you see burglars entering your neighbour's house? Do you cross the road when some young woman is being raped? What would you do if you saw your neighbour's bicycle being stolen or damaged?
I'm not talking about gratuitous denouncements. We don't have to go to back to Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia but if something bothers you enough then some useful pragmatic action is entirely reasonable. Knocking on windows secures no long-term benefits for anyone - and I expect that you know that this is true.
Hi marcg : I see where your coming from but banging on the side of the car or truck is to grab their attention before they side swip me or pinch me up against the curb,its the only way to penitrate the trance some drivers seem to be in ! I think saveing myself from injury is more important than upsetting the drivers sensibility :rolleyes: (to me anyway)
Greywolf, I'm sorry to say that I don't accept any of what you say and nor would anyone else who read your previous post where you said:-
"If a car is stoped at a traffic jam & is too close to the curb I bash their side mirror out off line with my elbow & wave an "opps sorry!!". Hopefully next time they are waiting to turn they'l remember not to get too close to the curb. Driver education"
This is that kind if aggressive behaviour which one might more properly expect of motorists.
Anyone who is that far forward of a car or truck is in a position to ride clear and anyone who is in a position to reach out and knock against a car window is too close for safety anyway.
Really, cycling is meant to be about tranquility, serenity and not about all this angst and being the conscience of the motoring public.
Dorf, William,
Thank you for the warning of what I am going to have to face in April when I report onboard 32nd Street and the JPJ. Here in Hawaii they same happens at Pearl, Hickham, and my base Camp Smith, and to add insult to injury Camp Smith is on the Side of a Mountain. So after riding uphill for 2 miles I then have to deal with the bozo's who are so trapped in their cages that they run into each other, let alone the running or biking commuters.
The good thing at CS is that most of the manpowered commuters are Senior Enlisted and Officers and We organized a informal Education Seminar about 1 1/2 years ago and it helped for awhile. The Command Senior Enlisted Advisors for all of the Major Tennents are willing to make the next one manditory if the situatioon does not improve from itcurrently degraded state.
We will need to unite in April to address the problems in SD if it continues.
Dorf, which code at CPG-3 I was attatched there several times in the past? N-6.
Dorf, William,
Thank you for the warning of what I am going to have to face in April when I report onboard 32nd Street and the JPJ.
We will need to unite in April to address the problems in SD if it continues.
Dorf, which code at CPG-3 I was attatched there several times in the past? N-6.
Not really that bad if you are an experienced commuter just a bit annoying. I have been commuting in San Diego for nearly 13 years so it is pretty much old hat now.
Yes, I would like to hook up when you get here.
Attached to CPG-3 several times? That sounds odd. I am in N-44 (maint. side of N-6).
John
will send private message
You have me there marcg, but commuting in heavy traffic is very differant to a rec. ride, it can be a bit of an extreme sport :o at times & the addrenalin levels are running high when you share the road with double trailer logging trucks (every 5th vechicle here) you have to have good survival tactics & escape routes worked out for every roundabout for where the trucks not only climb up the curb as they go round but onto the pavement (sidewalk) too! The curbs, grassverges & sidewalks by the roundabouts on the routes used by the heavy port traffic are all crushed by their rear trailer wheels. Don't get me wrong , I love just what you describe on a recreation ride & that is my prefered cycling mode but it doesent work for me when commuting in the midst of heavy traffic .
Happy cycling :beer: cheers.
I just knocked on a guys window and then in my fury i gave him the finger, maybe the finger was to much. But i get sick of people turning out right in front of me just because they are in a 2,000lb. cage and think that they own the road!
Just this morning I took the opportunity to knock on a motorist's window. Fairly typical situation: two lane city street with a bike lane on the far right side. A car is waiting for a gap in oncoming traffic to make a mid-block left-hand turn. The gold Toyota Avalon behind the turning car whips into the bikelane and passes the left-turner on the right hand side.
I wasn't particularly endangered but it was close enough that I was concerned that he didn't bother to look, so at the next light I knocked on his passenger window.
The driver is a middle age guy, professionally dressed in a suit and tie and expensive looking coat.
He rolls down the window. I say, "Good morning. Listen, please don't do that. The bike lane is there for bikes, it's not a convenience lane so you can pass people on the right."
He gives me a dirty look, makes a kind of "pfff" noise, and rolls up the window. Okay, whatever guy.
When the light turns green, he accelerates quickly ahead but runs smack into traffic backed up at the next light. At this point, the bike lane disappears and I merge into the main traffic lane. I can see him looking at me in the rear-view mirror. He turns right. I turn right (this is my normal route anyway). I'm beginning to think he's freaked out by this because he accelerates again and pulls way over to the far left lane (it's now a three lane, one-way boulevard).
I hear him shout something. I can't hear it, but it doesn't sound friendly or apologetic. I just wave and shake my head.
Just this morning I took the opportunity to knock on a motorist's window. Fairly typical situation: two lane city street with a bike lane on the far right side. A car is waiting for a gap in oncoming traffic to make a mid-block left-hand turn. The gold Toyota Avalon behind the turning car whips into the bikelane and passes the left-turner on the right hand side.
I wasn't particularly endangered but it was close enough that I was concerned that he didn't bother to look, so at the next light I knocked on his passenger window.
The driver is a middle age guy, professionally dressed in a suit and tie and expensive looking coat.
He rolls down the window. I say, "Good morning. Listen, please don't do that. The bike lane is there for bikes, it's not a convenience lane so you can pass people on the right."
He gives me a dirty look, makes a kind of "pfff" noise, and rolls up the window. Okay, whatever guy.
When the light turns green, he accelerates quickly ahead but runs smack into traffic backed up at the next light. At this point, the bike lane disappears and I merge into the main traffic lane. I can see him looking at me in the rear-view mirror. He turns right. I turn right (this is my normal route anyway). I'm beginning to think he's freaked out by this because he accelerates again and pulls way over to the far left lane (it's now a three lane, one-way boulevard).
I hear him shout something. I can't hear it, but it doesn't sound friendly or apologetic. I just wave and shake my head.
I wonder what people would think if we casually waved a loaded firearm around. I guess as long as it's a car, it's okay to be careless with a deadly weapon. Funny how people don't worry that what they do is dangerous to others. I still think the punishment for screwing up while driving should be the same as if they had an accident with a firearm.
"Over the top" would be knocking on sombody's window ...... with a hammer. :D
I'm far from an advocate, infact, I drive twice a week. Sometimes more, but usually twice a week. I shifted my commute to a train bike combo and ride from downtown to the base. Lately, with increased security, there's a line getting on base. At the entrance I use, people have been backed up for a good distance.
Last week and this week, people have taken to parking in the bike lane while waiting to get on base. I can understand the need to stay out of traffic, but a few cars really smash it in leaving just barely enough room, if not enough at all for me to get through. Perhaps because it's monday, or I'm simply tired of it; I knocked on a few windows to let folks know they are in a lane specified for me. I have a small amount of guilt about it, thinking it may have been over the top..
Opinions?
I would simply do the same thing, and I don't have any guilt feeling towards it
The driver is a middle age guy, professionally dressed in a suit and tie and expensive looking coat.
He rolls down the window. I say, "Good morning. Listen, please don't do that. The bike lane is there for bikes, it's not a convenience lane so you can pass people on the right."
He gives me a dirty look, makes a kind of "pfff" noise, and rolls up the window. Okay, whatever guy.That calls for the old "water bottle discharged in his lap" trick. :D
On my ride home,yesterday, I had a middle-aged-guy-professionally-dressed-in-a-suit-and-tie change lanes and cut me off. I gave his trunk a solid smack and ducked down to stare at him in his rear-view mirror. At the next light he rolled down his window, apologized profusely for not looking out for me, and asked if I was okay....Doesn't happen everyday, but they are out there. I have found that nice, albeit careless, people come in all stripes, and suits. Same goes for the not-so-nice variety.
I just knocked on a guys window and then in my fury i gave him the finger, maybe the finger was to much.
And he didn't leap from his vehicle in a murderous rage and try to kill you?
That's probably what would happen around my part of the world!
Once, a car materialized from behind me, drew alongside, then
began to veer over to make a right turn, which of course would have
flattened me. I shouted "No, no, no!", no cussing, nothing, and
she whipped over ahead of me into a parking lot, jumped out and
screamed, "F@*# YOU, THAT'S NOT MY FAULT THAT'S YOUR FAULT!!!"
I cruised past, sort of waving my hand and saying (not shouting) "no, no..."
and BOY did she go off...she was screaming some sort of unintelligable invectives as I rode away. The little (insert derogatory descriptive)
was ready to kill me, and all I did was shout "No" in defense of my well-being.
That said, I do get a ton of respect from most everyone else along my
daily route. Lucky for me, because I don't think I could handle it otherwise.
Three scenarios, all as a pedstrian:
1) Crossing in the crosswalk in front of a utility van. Driver is looking at oncoming traffic. He starts out into me. Tap, I tap his hood. He keeps coming, accelerating. Bang, bang, bang!!! as hard as I could on his hood. He stopped, finally.
2) Similar situation, crossing in front of an SUV. Lady starts out into me. I shout, "Hey, hey, HEY!" She almost runs me over anyway, but I jump up on her "deer catcher" and shout again. She apologized for almost killing me. I jump back down off her SUV (didn't want to ride, anyway) and kept walking.
3) Driver coming from behind cuts me off in a crosswalk close enough so I could touch her car--so I did: I tapped it with my knuckles. She turned around and went the wrong way in a one-way street just to ask me if I hit her car. I told her she almost hit me. She didn't care.
Now, I carry my whistle while walking. When I'm about to cross in front of a "right-on-red" motorist who's not looking at me, I blow my whistle. They look at me, then I wave and cross. By this time, they've lost their concentration and have to start scanning traffic all over again. Aw, that's too bad!
Once, a car materialized from behind me, drew alongside, then
began to veer over to make a right turn, which of course would have
flattened me. I shouted "No, no, no!", no cussing, nothing, and
she whipped over ahead of me into a parking lot, jumped out and
screamed, "F@*# YOU, THAT'S NOT MY FAULT THAT'S YOUR FAULT!!!"
I attribute these extreme manifestations of abuse to be due to a person's need to purge an overwhelming sense of guilt.
Ah, indeed.
I think she had enough for three people.
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