Advocacy & Safety - Winessed wrong-way cyclist get hit

This morning I witnessed an accident between a wrong-way cyclist and a vehicle turning right out of a parking lot. I reached the scene just as the driver was telling the bike rider that she would pay for damages. When I said that she was not at fault the bike rider began to dispute with me. At that point I'm afraid that I lost my temper and began to lecture him, saying that a bike is a vehicle, that he needed to follow the rules of the road, that he was lucky that he wasn't dead, etc....I told the driver to call the police so that there would be some record of the incident and at that point the bike rider decided to leave the scene on foot, abandoning his damaged bike. An officer arrived but since there was no damage to the car and no serious injuries he just took our contact information. Before I left I told the officer that I would appreciate if he and his fellow officers would watch for wrong-way cyclists and stop any that they see.

I assume they were on the road, not the sidewalk, correct?

Why is the OP in the middle of this, arguing with people? The correct response from a bystander to an accident is to call 911 immediately and to write his name and phone number on a slip of paper to hand to each of the participants and the police officer and indicate to them that you are a witness.

Let the police sort out who was at fault using your and others' witness testimony and the apparent facts on the ground.

Let the police sort out who was at fault using your and others' witness testimony and the apparent facts on the ground.

Yep. Tell the facts if asked, but don't speculate on the law and the implications of the law.

Al

I assume they were on the road, not the sidewalk, correct?

Although there was a sidewalk they were in the bike lane. For those who know the Boise area this took place on Emerald between Maple Grove and Five Mile.

Why is the OP in the middle of this, arguing with people? The correct response from a bystander to an accident is to call 911 immediately and to write his name and phone number on a slip of paper to hand to each of the participants and the police officer and indicate to them that you are a witness.

Let the police sort out who was at fault using your and others' witness testimony and the apparent facts on the ground.

The problem with that issue is that police often do not know the laws pertaining to cyclists... as illustrated on BF by the many times cyclists have been stopped and questioned for doing the right thing.

As far as the officer was concerned, he may have assumed the driver was at fault.

Police are only human. I was once nearly issued a ticket for an auto accident that was the fault of the motorist behind me... (multiple car collision) the cop had assumed the wrong scenario, even after questioning several others. The whole "answer only the questions I give you" situation may not build the proper case. (Defense attorneys know this well)

Perhaps the OP should not have been involved... but certainly as a witness, some things did need to be clarified for the police.

Why is the OP in the middle of this, arguing with people? The correct response from a bystander to an accident is to call 911 immediately and to write his name and phone number on a slip of paper to hand to each of the participants and the police officer and indicate to them that you are a witness.

Let the police sort out who was at fault using your and others' witness testimony and the apparent facts on the ground.

In retrospect this probably would have been a better course of action. When I arrived it appeared that the driver was about to take the bike and rider to a place to get the bike repaired so I spoke up. I didn't intend to get into an arguement but it happened.

I told the driver to call the police.......and at that point the bike rider decided to leave the scene on foot, abandoning his damaged bike.

Stolen bike perhaps? Wrong way,leaves it behind,doesn't want to talk to police. Did the cops take the bike away? Might want to post a description of it on your local CL.

The problem with that issue is that police often do not know the laws pertaining to cyclists... as illustrated on BF by the many times cyclists have been stopped and questioned for doing the right thing.

As far as the officer was concerned, he may have assumed the driver was at fault.

Police are only human. I was once nearly issued a ticket for an auto accident that was the fault of the motorist behind me... (multiple car collision) the cop had assumed the wrong scenario, even after questioning several others. The whole "answer only the questions I give you" situation may not build the proper case. (Defense attorneys know this well)

Perhaps the OP should not have been involved... but certainly as a witness, some things did need to be clarified for the police.

This is what the little book the officer is carrying and the court system is for. You don't get into a slap fight with a participant of a vehicle crash, at the crash scene where emotions are high. The OP might have interpreted the situation wrong. There might have been extenuating circumstances. The crash participant was, perhaps, intimidated by this fellow off the street into running off, perhaps with injuries, and leaving his bike behind.

I have been a participant in a car/bike collision (me on the bike). I couldn't even think straight (just adrenalin, not head injury, fortunately) enough to get a witness name and number. I didn't know enough to ask for a full set of driver info (got just name and cell number; useless if the other participant refuses to cooperate - you cannot even sue in small claims court because there isn't enough info to serve the law suite). I really, really wish that someone had just called 911 as I was getting myself off the ground, and had a police officer run both me and the other participant through the correct procedure. As it was, no police came because none was summoned; there was no police report, I had no info from witnesses, and I didn't have enough to get $200 out of the driver (who was at fault - pulled out of a parallel parking spot into my path; I was positioned in the middle of the far left lane of a one way street ready to make a left turn).

Stolen bike perhaps? Wrong way,leaves it behind,doesn't want to talk to police. Did the cops take the bike away? Might want to post a description of it on your local CL.

Shock from just being hit by a car? Intimidated by this person in his face? The OP made it sound like the police were being summoned, not to sort things out or check the participants for injury and property damage, but to "make it official" that the cyclist in the wrong and owed the driver damages and the cyclist would get nothing - a confrontational summoning. This was after it was apparent that the participants were resolving this civily and the OP stepped into the middle of it and made hay.

Have you ever been hit by a car before? The experience doesn't exactly leave you thinking rationally about anything. Your order of priorities doesn't extend more than 2 minutes into the future. You aren't thinking about insurance, lawsuits, fault. All you want is to move to safety; make things stop hurting. It is an animal response. Go in the corner, hide, get away from other people. You want it all to go away. You aren't even seeking help. Help has to be forced upon the person.

I know this from experience.

And the OP goes and picks a fight. No wonder the cyclist ran away. The OP made it into a hostile environment that the injured cyclist was in no condition to handle.

The rider knew he was in the wrong, thought initially he was going to get a free ride out of it and then just like a coward hit and run driver, when he thought he might get in trouble he fled the scene.

OP, good job.

The rider knew he was in the wrong, thought initially he was going to get a free ride out of it and then just like a coward hit and run driver, when he thought he might get in trouble he fled the scene.

OP, good job.

Have you ever been hit by a car?

Or do you know the guy and he told you all this?

This morning I witnessed an accident between a wrong-way cyclist and a vehicle turning right out of a parking lot. I reached the scene just as the driver was telling the bike rider that she would pay for damages. When I said that she was not at fault the bike rider began to dispute with me. At that point I'm afraid that I lost my temper and began to lecture him, saying that a bike is a vehicle, that he needed to follow the rules of the road, that he was lucky that he wasn't dead, etc....I told the driver to call the police so that there would be some record of the incident and at that point the bike rider decided to leave the scene on foot, abandoning his damaged bike. An officer arrived but since there was no damage to the car and no serious injuries he just took our contact information. Before I left I told the officer that I would appreciate if he and his fellow officers would watch for wrong-way cyclists and stop any that they see.

:rolleyes:

http://eroundlake.com/blog/uploaded_images/dudley_do_right-703696.jpg

^^^
1+

Stolen bike perhaps? Wrong way,leaves it behind,doesn't want to talk to police. Did the cops take the bike away? Might want to post a description of it on your local CL.

The bike rider said that he was late to work, pointed out his office, and started walking toward it. The police officer left the bike where it was.

This is what the little book the officer is carrying and the court system is for. You don't get into a slap fight with a participant of a vehicle crash, at the crash scene where emotions are high. The OP might have interpreted the situation wrong. There might have been extenuating circumstances. The crash participant was, perhaps, intimidated by this fellow off the street into running off, perhaps with injuries, and leaving his bike behind.

I have been a participant in a car/bike collision (me on the bike). I couldn't even think straight (just adrenalin, not head injury, fortunately) enough to get a witness name and number. I didn't know enough to ask for a full set of driver info (got just name and cell number; useless if the other participant refuses to cooperate - you cannot even sue in small claims court because there isn't enough info to serve the law suite). I really, really wish that someone had just called 911 as I was getting myself off the ground, and had a police officer run both me and the other participant through the correct procedure. As it was, no police came because none was summoned; there was no police report, I had no info from witnesses, and I didn't have enough to get $200 out of the driver (who was at fault - pulled out of a parallel parking spot into my path; I was positioned in the middle of the far left lane of a one way street ready to make a left turn).

I tend to agree with you here and in your other post right after... post 10... and yeah, I have been in car bike collisions.

Really the OP was in the wrong as far as caring for a potentially injured person... but the reality is that it was the cyclist's fault, and the driver didn't know that, and the cop arriving on the scene may not check their little book, and may make all sorts of wrong assumptions. (have seen it happen)

I commend the OP for correcting the situation, but condemn the OP for poor timing on imparting a lesson.

As much as people like to ***** for your interference, I'm glad to see this idiot didn't get new parts out of being an idiot. Though you should have probably just told the driver, left your contact info, and suggest they get a police report. Guy was obviously an idiot to begin with and if face-on-pavement didn't teach him, a scolding wont either.

In retrospect this probably would have been a better course of action. When I arrived it appeared that the driver was about to take the bike and rider to a place to get the bike repaired so I spoke up. I didn't intend to get into an arguement but it happened.


So those invlolved had come to a mutual agreement on what to do and your input collapsed their agreement?

As much as people like to ***** for your interference, I'm glad to see this idiot didn't get new parts out of being an idiot. Though you should have probably just told the driver, left your contact info, and suggest they get a police report. Guy was obviously an idiot to begin with and if face-on-pavement didn't teach him, a scolding wont either.

There is nothing to be "glad" about here. Getting hit by a car is enough of a lesson. I'll bet the driver participant thought so too, hence the offer.

Have you ever been hit by a car?

Or do you know the guy and he told you all this?

As a matter of fact I was dragged under one.

I'm making an educated guess based on the "facts" as presented.

this is why i rarely venture into this forum any more.

we have a second hand description of an accident with precious few details. already there are wide reaching assumptions about who deserves what, people needing to be taught a lesson, and some thinly veiled happiness that this 'idiot' got what he deserved.

nothing i've read in here would be enough for me to form such a strong opinion over.

So those invlolved had come to a mutual agreement on what to do and your input collapsed their agreement?

I arrived at the scene about 30 seconds after the incident so I'm not sure how much would have been discussed prior to my arrival.

I commend the OP for correcting the situation, but condemn the OP for poor timing on imparting a lesson.

Thanks for all the feedback. If there is a next time hopefully I'll handle the situation better. I think that I also got caught up in the emotions of the event.

By the way the officer seemed to know the rules. He said that it would have been legal for the cyclist to ride that way on the sidewalk but not in the bike lane. While we were still at the scene another wrong-way cyclist passed and the officer told her to get on the sidewalk.

(Does OP mean "other person" or something else?)

OP = original poster, as in, the person/post which started the thread. Internet slang. Sorry.

Bob, unfortunately it is legal in many places to ride the wrong way or on a sidewalk.

It shouldn't be, but there you are.

Bob, unfortunately it is legal in many places to ride the wrong way or on a sidewalk.

It shouldn't be, but there you are.

What is "wrong way" if the sidewalk is wide enough for side to side passing? Would you have people only going in the same direction as motor traffic if they had to cross a 6 lane arterial to simply get to the next store "up the block" in the "wrong" direction?

what kind of person would roll up on a bike/car accident and then start to berate the bicyclist? with the bike laying on the ground all mangled?

who are all these people on these forums who feel it's their duty to tell everyone else how to live their lives? we got the one dude tellin black people not to ride. now we have some other self-righteous dude tellin other people - including undocumented workers, i suppose - how not to ride.

what is wrong with these people?

and this dude is actually asking police officers to harass bicyclists? man - must be nice to be white.

unreal.

with friends like this...

Bob, unfortunately it is legal in many places to ride the wrong way
Where is it legal to ride against traffic flow on the street in a bike lane?

Al

There is nothing to be "glad" about here. Getting hit by a car is enough of a lesson. I'll bet the driver participant thought so too, hence the offer.
So if say a car passes you unsafely, and hits something, you'll be offering to pay for it? After all having an airbag deploy in your face is enough of a lesson to not do it again... I'm not glad that the guy got in an accident, those are horrible, but to cause an accident and get a new bike out of it is bull****, and the guy wont learn a thing. I'm just glad to see the guy isn't going to come out on top for doing something unsafe and illegal, it's the basis of a lot of wrong attitudes is finding a way to weasel yourself on top of every situation no matter how wrong you are.

Driver felt responsible, even though they weren't, thats most likely why they were willing to pay for repairs. The cyclist was pissed because he suddenly found himself not getting easy free parts for a minor accident.


The blind cyclist support here is sickening. :rolleyes: We need to use our knowledge of laws and safety to support everyone, even if it's a driver.



What is "wrong way" if the sidewalk is wide enough for side to side passing? Would you have people only going in the same direction as motor traffic if they had to cross a 6 lane arterial to simply get to the next store "up the block" in the "wrong" direction?
Can't do it in a car, and a bike is a vehicle when it's on the roadway. Roads are structured for all vehicles to travel in the same direction for a reason, regardless of a minor inconvenience to you.

S
Driver felt responsible, even though they weren't, thats most likely why they were willing to pay for repairs..
Perhaps the driver knew that they had not looked right at all before proceeding and if they had they would have seen the cyclist and the collision prevented and were guided by their sense of (partial) responsibility vs. the law. They may very well have known that while the cyclist was in the wrong and legally responsible, they could have prevented the collision if they had looked and took the higher ground. Maybe they understood this error could have just as well caused them to hit a pedestrian and they would have been legally at fault then.

Then some other cyclist(?) comes along and sways them the other way, after all its another cyclist(?) weighing in on a moral decision the driver made and is using the law to back it up.

Al

Where is it legal to ride against traffic flow on the street in a bike lane?

Al

Incidentally the bike lane where this accident occured has painted bike symbols and arrows showing the correct direction of travel.

You extrapolate a lot, StrangeWill - I doubt the guy was getting a new bike. She was more likely accompanying him to the bike shop to get an estimate of the damage, or maybe to just straighten a wheel or replace a spoke or tire, you know, so the guy could get home after work.

Vulnerability counts for something when it comes to human to human relations, and the driver might have felt some responsiblity because she was driving a bigger vehicle and recognized that, with this priviledge, comes the responsiblity to be extra cautious around more vulnerable road users.

Funny that you should feel sickened at the thought of giving the benefit of the doubt to a cyclist injured in a crash. The OP did not do his duty as a witness and instead got into a pissing match with an injured person about some legalities, of which, he had no authority to render a judgement.

The conversation should have gone like this:

OP: Are you guys okay?

Cyclist: yea... we're okay here.

OP: Are there any injuries? I've called 911 just in case. Just sit down on the sidewalk for a moment in case there's something injured that isn't apparent right now.

OP: Here's my information in case you guys need a witness. Both of you just sit tight for a moment until the police arrive. They'll be here in a couple minutes.

Police arrives, OP gives contact info in case either party needs an independent witness and gives a statement to the officer. OP leaves and lets the police officer take over.

And the OP goes and picks a fight. No wonder the cyclist ran away. The OP made it into a hostile environment that the injured cyclist was in no condition to handle.
The OP is fortunate that the other cyclist hasn't visited him to repay him for his gratuitous street side legal advice to the motorist. At least hasn't visited him yet.

OP, you sound like a total ****** bag.

I'm waiting for the day someone yells at me for not getting into my toe-clips fast enough.

-Kurt

The bike rider deserved to be taught that lesson. The CAR driver needed to hear it as well. So she know we are not all for one and 1 for all no matter the situation. otherwise the car driver becomes those crying for our removal from the roads and the bike rider continues to be a bike rider and not a cycelist.

Can't do it in a car, and a bike is a vehicle when it's on the roadway. Roads are structured for all vehicles to travel in the same direction for a reason, regardless of a minor inconvenience to you.

But we were talking about sidewalks, not roads... what is the "wrong way" on a sidewalk???

But we were talking about sidewalks, not roads... what is the "wrong way" on a sidewalk???
Why bring up wrong way riding on sidewalks in discussing an incident that did not involve any being used at the time, wrong way or not. dogbreath mentioned that some places it is legal to ride on sidewalk.

There is no US state code defined and prohibited wrong way cycling on a sidewalk, there are municipal codes that do.

Al

+1 for the bike being stolen.

But we were talking about sidewalks, not roads... what is the "wrong way" on a sidewalk???
Depends on where you live, sometimes that's either direction for a bike.


Perhaps the driver knew that they had not looked right at all before proceeding and if they had they would have seen the cyclist and the collision prevented and were guided by their sense of (partial) responsibility vs. the law. They may very well have known that while the cyclist was in the wrong and legally responsible, they could have prevented the collision if they had looked and took the higher ground. Maybe they understood this error could have just as well caused them to hit a pedestrian and they would have been legally at fault then.

Then some other cyclist(?) comes along and sways them the other way, after all its another cyclist(?) weighing in on a moral decision the driver made and is using the law to back it up.

Al
Last time I checked you'll never be found at fault for not checking for vehicles going the wrong way down the road. I bet like hell if this was a cyclist hit by a car traveling the wrong way people would be all over the motorist.

Being as the driver seemed to change their mind after the OP mentioned the cyclist was in the wrong, I'm pretty sure it was out of feeling personally in the wrong.

And pedestrians don't exactly run down the road at 15mph into traffic.


You extrapolate a lot, StrangeWill - I doubt the guy was getting a new bike. She was more likely accompanying him to the bike shop to get an estimate of the damage, or maybe to just straighten a wheel or replace a spoke or tire, you know, so the guy could get home after work.

Vulnerability counts for something when it comes to human to human relations, and the driver might have felt some responsiblity because she was driving a bigger vehicle and recognized that, with this priviledge, comes the responsiblity to be extra cautious around more vulnerable road users.

Funny that you should feel sickened at the thought of giving the benefit of the doubt to a cyclist injured in a crash. The OP did not do his duty as a witness and instead got into a pissing match with an injured person about some legalities, of which, he had no authority to render a judgement.

The conversation should have gone like this:

OP: Are you guys okay?

Cyclist: yea... we're okay here.

OP: Are there any injuries? I've called 911 just in case. Just sit down on the sidewalk for a moment in case there's something injured that isn't apparent right now.

OP: Here's my information in case you guys need a witness. Both of you just sit tight for a moment until the police arrive. They'll be here in a couple minutes.

Police arrives, OP gives contact info in case either party needs an independent witness and gives a statement to the officer. OP leaves and lets the police officer take over.
Yeah I am overestimating a little, obviously if there was no damage from the car, the guy couldn't have been in too bad a shape. Then again knowing the kinds of people that throw fits like this guy did, he'd probably be looking to milk it.

Alas no one learns anything if we play the "oh poor cyclist always the victim" game, we can't be taken seriously if we always act like hurt children when one of us does something wrong.

Considering that the cyclist and driver were discussing going to the store, not the hospital, I really doubt the cyclist in the accident was injured, nor did the OP have to ask. Most of us have common sense while outside and can make deductions based on situations without having to follow a pre-determined script.


The bike rider deserved to be taught that lesson. The CAR driver needed to hear it as well. So she know we are not all for one and 1 for all no matter the situation. otherwise the car driver becomes those crying for our removal from the roads and the bike rider continues to be a bike rider and not a cycelist.
True, and it's good that a motorist had a cyclist come up and stand up a little for them, at least make them feel like they're not 100% at fault, and show off that cyclists like to know the rules of the road and stick by them.

The conversation should have gone like this:

OP: Are you guys okay?

Cyclist: yea... we're okay here.

OP: Are there any injuries? I've called 911 just in case. Just sit down on the sidewalk for a moment in case there's something injured that isn't apparent right now.

OP: Here's my information in case you guys need a witness. Both of you just sit tight for a moment until the police arrive. They'll be here in a couple minutes.

Police arrives, OP gives contact info in case either party needs an independent witness and gives a statement to the officer. OP leaves and lets the police officer take over.

^^^Yes.

I would have then offered to fix or replace the bike out of my garage workshop / used bike inventory, no matter if I was the motorist or witness. Then if he accepted I would have chatted him up on safe cycling, making him a safer cyclist and probably a friend.

EDIT: I was hit by a car while on my bike where it was my fault. I'm glad Dudley Do Right didn't come to my "rescue".

+1 for the bike being stolen.

Good to know that we get to make up the facts about the situation by committee.

All in favor of the saying the bike was stolen say "Aye"!

The problem with this scenario is that while the cyclist was certainly in the wrong for riding against traffic, the driver was also likely to be in the wrong, for not keeping a proper lookout as she turned right. From the simple description offered, it sounds like she was looking to her left for oncoming traffic, saw an opening, and turned without looking in the direction she was turning. If not, how is it that she collided with the wrong-way cyclist? And if so, then she was also at fault-- and that is why liability for the crash shouldn't have been a determination made by a bystander.

Good to know that we get to make up the facts about the situation by committee.

All in favor of the saying the bike was stolen say "Aye"!

Hey, might as well.

Riding the wrong way is one thing, but abandoning the bike at the scene, running off before the cop showed up... that is not the behavior of someone who actually owns the bike they're riding.

Hey, might as well.

Riding the wrong way is one thing, but abandoning the bike at the scene, running off before the cop showed up... that is not the behavior of someone who actually owns the bike they're riding.Maybe.

But it could also indicate somebody who has a bench warrant out, somebody who missed a visit with his parole officer, somebody who's violating the terms of his parole (maybe under the influence), somebody who hasn't made child support payments, somebody who's here illegally...

It could be any number of things, including bike theft.

Sometimes "fault" is not so easy to determine. It is fairly universal that a vehicle leaving a private driveway must yield right-of-way to any traffic on the public street, the public "street" including the sidewalk and/or any adjacent paths or trails, and "traffic" including pedestrians, cyclists, and such. So, a cyclist riding the on wrong side of the street, i.e., going in the incorrect direction for that side of the street, may share fault, or may be construed to have the right-of-way. When such right-of-way issues are clouded, we look to case law, which is higher court decisions which have weighed such cases in the past. Case law is not printed in traffic codes, though a legislator can certainly introduce a bill that would codify a decision made by a court. Moreover, any new incident can still go to court to be decided.

Then, there is liability for damages. Even in collisions which are "double-faulted," a court can decide one party is more responsible than the other, and therefore rule that partial damages be paid to to the other party. If damage is limited to property, the amount may be small, but if, for example, a cyclist suffers a concussion, and brain swelling occurs well after the collision, there may be health issues far
beyond bumps and bruises.

FWIW, I am not a lawyer, but do wear a police badge, though not for my listed hometwon of Bellaire. I will not speculate on who would have been ticketed in the OP's incident, because traffic and municipal codes vary, and I have not examined the scene. Here in Texas, the motorist would have at least shared responsibility, simply by being the one exiting a private driveway onto a public right-of-way.

Have you ever been hit by a car before? The experience doesn't exactly leave you thinking rationally about anything.

I've been doored. And I wiped out on a motorcycle once when I was 17. Both times I kept my head.

The bike rider said that he was late to work, pointed out his office, and started walking toward it. The police officer left the bike where it was.

You didn't point this out in your initial post.

It still sounds wonky. I'd say being involved in a traffic accident makes for a legit excuss to be late for work. None of the cyclists I know would just let their bike lay somewhere. 50/50 as to whether this was sketchiness or just someone in shock.

My approach would have been,

"Excuse me Mam, are you sure that you are at fault here? Bicycles are vehicles and have to obey the same rules of the road as cars. Might want to wait for an officer to arrive before stating or agreeing to anything."

...and then back out and announced self as witness IF officer arrives. (Stop short of a lecture...)

=8-)

Thanks for all the responses to my account of the accident and it's aftermath.

Hopefully I will learn from this experience so that if I'm ever again in a similar situation the results will be better for all concerned.

OP aka DDR