Road Cycling - Newbie Q: Practical differences between Campy and Shimano?

I'm sorry if this topic has come up before. I did a search and couldn't really find exactly what I was looking for. I know that the top of the line is Record and Dura Ace, then Chorus and Ultegra, Centaur and 105, etc...

But, a bike enthusiast I know said that when he replaces pads on brakes he finds that the new Shimano products will make pads that won't fit the previous product forcing the consumer to buy new brakes. Sort of a planned obsolescence. Whereas, Campy pads will fit all Campy brakes. Is that true?

He also said that Campy products tend to be more compatible with each other and Shimano is not, again forcing the customer to buy more.

I guess my question is just like my thread title: What, if any, are the practical differences between Campy and Shimano that might make one better than the other?

Comfort-wise I prefer Campy. Take a look at the hoods on both. Notice how Shimano has a much deeper hood? For me, this feels just awful, and I ride in the hoods quite a bit. After too long, my hands start feeling numb. Campy has a wider, shallower hood that feels great to me. You obviously may prefer Shimano's feel to Campy's. It's just something to keep in your mind. Oh, and check out this picture of Indurain. Not that it applies. Indurain just rocks, that's all

The Campy vs. Shimano debate is a religious one for many people, so I won't try to take any sides.

But the point about Campy being more compatible is debatable. I think with Shimano levers, if something goes wrong with one, you probably have to buy a new one to replace it, while you can completely overhaul the Campy Ergo levers (you can't overhaul the Shimano levers yourself). That said, there's a lot of incompatibility between old and new Campy stuff. For example, my bike has '99 Campy Chorus components, and new brake pads won't fit my old brakes, so I have to specifically order old pads, which are harder to find. And when my old 9-speed rear derailleur gave out on me, I had to buy a new one, which turns out to be incompatible with my old Ergo lever. So I had to order a bunch of parts to overhaul the lever myself before I could use the new derailleur. And if I wanted to upgrade to 10-speed, which has become the default system with the new Campy line, I would have to replace my front derailleur, crankset, chain, Ergo lever, etc. My point is that yes, you can make old Campy parts work with the new ones, but you end up paying a lot for this and that and putting in a lot of work to make everything work together.

One practical difference is that Shimano is less expensive than Campy, and no matter what anyone says, it's much easier to find Shimano components than Campy in most bike shops (in the U.S. at least).

I've also heard that some people (esp. women) who have small hands may have difficulty using the Campy Ergo levers because of the position of the thumb lever. I don't have any personal experience with this, so I'm just throwing this out as hearsay. Personally, I prefer the Campy Ergo levers to the Shimano design.

I think both Campy and Shimano make great components. I have Campy on my bike and I find the shifting precise and snappy, but I also find Shimano components to be very high quality and they work very smoothly.

-Kevin

Now, I have ridden Shimano 105 components almost exclusively except for one bike I had equipped with Suntour Sprint components. The Suntour stuff was really good by the way and it is a shame that Suntour is not still with us.

Shimano 105 works just fine and is reasonably durable. I replaced a rederrailler recently because it was getting a little sloppy but it had about 40,000 miles on it. Given the fact that relatively few riders put in more then 2,000 miles per year, most cyclists will never wear out their components.

Now I knew a couple of people who each put 50,000 miles on a set of Campy Nova Record components and they had nothing wear out except chains, tires, brake pads and other things that one expects to routinely wear out. If Campy is still running true to form, that means that Campy should still be considerably more durable then Shimano. But even my Shimano 105 is durable enough that the durability issue is not even there for most cyclists.

Shimano 105 shifts reasonably well. I have heard that higher end stuff shifts a little more smoothly, but 105 is quite serviceable. So what do you get by buying Dura Ace or Campy Record that 105 does not give you? Well, maybe a slightly smoother feel in shifting. Also the components are a bit lighter so if you are in a mountain stage race, that will make a difference and how many of us is ever in a mountain stage race?

I would submit that there are virtually no practical differences unless you get into pretty minor issues.

The Campy vs. Shimano debate is a religious one for many people, so I won't try to take any sides.

But the point about Campy being more compatible is debatable. I think with Shimano levers, if something goes wrong with one, you probably have to buy a new one to replace it, while you can completely overhaul the Campy Ergo levers (you can't overhaul the Shimano levers yourself). That said, there's a lot of incompatibility between old and new Campy stuff. For example, my bike has '99 Campy Chorus components, and new brake pads won't fit my old brakes, so I have to specifically order old pads, which are harder to find. And when my old 9-speed rear derailleur gave out on me, I had to buy a new one, which turns out to be incompatible with my old Ergo lever. So I had to order a bunch of parts to overhaul the lever myself before I could use the new derailleur. And if I wanted to upgrade to 10-speed, which has become the default system with the new Campy line, I would have to replace my front derailleur, crankset, chain, Ergo lever, etc. My point is that yes, you can make old Campy parts work with the new ones, but you end up paying a lot for this and that and putting in a lot of work to make everything work together.

One practical difference is that Shimano is less expensive than Campy, and no matter what anyone says, it's much easier to find Shimano components than Campy in most bike shops (in the U.S. at least).

I've also heard that some people (esp. women) who have small hands may have difficulty using the Campy Ergo levers because of the position of the thumb lever. I don't have any personal experience with this, so I'm just throwing this out as hearsay. Personally, I prefer the Campy Ergo levers to the Shimano design.

I think both Campy and Shimano make great components. I have Campy on my bike and I find the shifting precise and snappy, but I also find Shimano components to be very high quality and they work very smoothly.

-Kevin

Wow!! A voice of reason and consideration. Are you quite sure that you belong on this forum?

Neither is better than the other, they are both excellent products that are just different and appeal to different riders for different reasons.

Yes, Shimano is more readily available, but that has more to do with 25 years of smart and aggressive marketing tactics on the part of Shimano than it does with product superiority.

Backwards compatibility has always been an issue for both Campy & Shimano; the extent to which you are trapped is dictated by just how dramatic the changes have been and how well-versed you or your mechanic are at making things that aren't "supposed" to work together work together, e.g., I've been running Campy 9 speed shifters and derailleurs with Shimano 8 & 9 speed cassettes for 8 years without any problems whatsoever.

IMHO, picking your road bike's components may be just as, if not more important than selecting the frame material, geometry, and wheels if your goal is to find out what works best for you. The last comment is the key as there is simply no such thing as "the best" when it comes to bicycles; only "what's best for you".

Bottom Line: If you're serious enough about cycling to be concerned about bike fit and frame design, by all means, take the time to ride bikes equipped with Campy and Shimano so you can evaluate how they perform for yourself. You might be surprised by the results or, then again, you may just reinforce something you always suspected.

Practical differences:
Shimano chainset takes smaller rings (bolt circle diameter is 130 vs 135 mm of campy).
Campy front shifters are more versatile. The micro-indexing can shift any mech on any chainset. I use mine on a Shimano LX chainset.
Hubs: Shimano have better bearing placement, which is an issue if you haul heavy touring loads. Campy dismantle using an Allen key, so you dont need extra tools.
For std racing/training, both are good. For odd stuff like cyclo-cross, touring, etc, neither makes an ideal groupset, so you have to think carefully how to integrate different parts.

I rode 9 speed Dura Ace for 5 years and switched to Campy, mainly to try it since I had read all of the rave reviews. It's quicker, but I attribute that to having another cog in the rear (Shimano has addressed that with new DA and that'll trickle down over the next couple of years). I had no issues with Shimano's brake hoods, but that is probably the biggest difference you'll notice and have to constantly deal with. Very personal, there. Availability is not bad for any Campy stuff, even out here on the Navajo Reservation I can get a hold of it through my local shop. You might not find as many spare parts sitting around shops, though, that's true. But in terms of getting a part, you're not out of luck anywhere with either one.

I also like the aesthetics of Campy over Shimano, as the derailleur cables are routed under the bar tape instead of coming out of the side of the brake/shift lever.

You'll hear this after this post, but ride campy and Shimano bikes and see what you like best. It's persona preference, like most other choices in cycling.

OMG no debating which is better? Am I in the right forum? hahah

Seriously like the others said it is down to personal preference, Shimano is easier to find no doubt about it.. Campy is slightly more expensive but not that much more. Campy shifters can be rebuilt but for the cost is it worth it.. hard to say.... Campy does make upgrades to their drive train at times that does make it incompatible with older stuff at times but you can upgrade the internal of your shifters to compensate... Which lasts longer you'll get two different stories :) So let's just say that is personal experience and not facts.

Shimano you can get a wider range of gears for example a 11-34 cassette..

So in the end test ride a few bikes with campy and shimano see what you like..

The one that works best for you is the most practical.

Example....I prefer Shimano STI due to the ergonomics of MY hand....others prefer Ergo due to the.....

I personally like Ford, but Chevy makes a nice truck too..

oh wait.. wrong forum :)

Jeff

I have 105 and Chorus. They both work and they both work well. I treated myself to the Chorus this year for a change. Here are a few things to consider:

1. Cost - Campy costs more though Veloce and Centaur are good groups and not too much.

2. With Campy you don't see the cables at the handlebar area.

3. Shimano is easier to find, easier on compatability because it is easier to find.

Personally - I like the way Campy shifts better. Not so much at the cog - they are similar - though sometimes the campy is so smooth it almost seems like it didn't shift. No noise, no effort, etc. Where I like the shifting is at the levers. Campy has more solid feeling brakes, the thumb shifter/lever combo is more intuitive. I can shift better while sprinting and I can shift a lot of cogs with one push. Going from a high gear on the front big ring to the small ring neat becasue it is so easy to do it at the same time, while standing by pushing down both thumb levers. The ergo shifting is nice. The shimano hoods are more comfortable to me, though I am now used to my campy ones. Go with what you can afford and what you are comfortable with. You won't be any faster with one over the other - that takes training. Here is one final thing that has been told to me by more than one person - I don't know if it is true since I have only had my Chorus for about four months:

it is said that Campy wears in, Shimano wears out. Time will tell if this is true.

I've never understood the shifting on campy ergo levers. The brake only pivots one way and the little back tap thing shifts to a higher gear. Then the little thumb levers do what? While pressed down do they cause the back tab to shift to a lower gear?

I've never understood the shifting on campy ergo levers. The brake only pivots one way and the little back tap thing shifts to a higher gear. Then the little thumb levers do what? While pressed down do they cause the back tab to shift to a lower gear?


The thumb levers releases the cable, meaning it shifts to the smaller cogs.

Both have good and bad points so you have to choose.Brake pads are such a little thing to worry about.I just replaced the ones on my ultegra and didnt even go with shimano,went kool stops.

The thumb levers releases the cable, meaning it shifts to the smaller cogs.I like to think that with Campy the chain moves in the direction you push. (At least with a standard setup.)

BigFloppyLlama - Why on earth do you want the brake lever to pivot in more than one direction? Ergo levers seem much more solid and substantial to me.

I like to think that with Campy the chain moves in the direction you push. (At least with a standard setup.)

BigFloppyLlama - Why on earth do you want the brake lever to pivot in more than one direction? Ergo levers seem much more solid and substantial to me.

Both work really well and it does come down to personal perference. With that said, I do think that with campy, it can be complete rebuilt and upgradable. I converted my 8 speed shifters to 9 and I can convert to 10 with a $10 part...try that with STI. True that the older brake pads are not compadable with the new pads. I found that the dura ace pads fit the old campy brake shoes. As for the rear deraileur compadablity issues, I've found that its the shifters that control the length of pull on the cables and deraileurs of different years should work any shifters. 9 speed deraileurs have narrower pulleys for a narrower chain, but this can be changed out.

I blew out an old rear deraileur a few years ago. I went on ebay and found the same rear deraileur on ebay, bought it for 8 bucks and rebuilt my rear deraileur and I was on my way.

BFL-

I find the Ergo levers very intuitive. The lever behind the brake moves the chain in the same direction that you push the lever- towards the other side of the bike, and the thumb button is the opposite, it moves the chain towards the side it is on.

DEMON

I'm surprized that no one has mentioned one of
the main differences.
Campy is Italian
Shimano is Japanese

there, doesn't that clear everything up?

Marty

Kevin - You definitely do not have to change the crankset to go from 8 to 9 to 10 speed with Campy. You change the large chainring. Same with front derailleur. Pop out the bush insert and it becomes compatible. So not as extreme as you state. There is a problem in that 8-speed Ergo internals are no longer available and you have to go to 9-speed if something breaks. But that is only on '97 and older levers. And costs less than $100 to upgrade the levers (I just bought the parts to do so on my '97 Athena levers).

IMHO, the biggest practical difference is that Shimano is designed to be replaced while Campy is designed to be repaired. That is why I don't go to any LBS unless forced to. They don't know how to "repair" anything. They only know how to replace things. Guess I'm just old-fashioned in my thinking and that is why I like Campy.

I'm surprized that no one has mentioned one of
the main differences.
Campy is Italian
Shimano is Japanese

there, doesn't that clear everything up?

Marty

Also, let it be known that putting Shimano on an Italian frame will cause major malfunctions... it's like apples and oranges :D

Jeff

Kevin - You definitely do not have to change the crankset to go from 8 to 9 to 10 speed with Campy. You change the large chainring. Same with front derailleur. Pop out the bush insert and it becomes compatible. So not as extreme as you state. There is a problem in that 8-speed Ergo internals are no longer available and you have to go to 9-speed if something breaks. But that is only on '97 and older levers. And costs less than $100 to upgrade the levers (I just bought the parts to do so on my '97 Athena levers).

IMHO, the biggest practical difference is that Shimano is designed to be replaced while Campy is designed to be repaired. That is why I don't go to any LBS unless forced to. They don't know how to "repair" anything. They only know how to replace things. Guess I'm just old-fashioned in my thinking and that is why I like Campy.

ParSca, it's too bad that you don't have a LBS that can fix anything. In the san francisco bay area we have some pretty good LBSs!

Fogrider - Ask them to fix your STI shifter. They will be happy to. By replacing it with a new one.

BFL-

I find the Ergo levers very intuitive. The lever behind the brake moves the chain in the same direction that you push the lever- towards the other side of the bike, and the thumb button is the opposite, it moves the chain towards the side it is on.

DEMON

That's exactly like the Sora workings on the Shimano side I think (although I'm sure campy first used this particular style). I’m not the biggest fan of this since it sort of forces you to get out of the drops when wanting to shift to a higher gear (smaller cog).

That's exactly like the Sora workings on the Shimano side I think (although I'm sure campy first used this particular style). I’m not the biggest fan of this since it sort of forces you to get out of the drops when wanting to shift to a higher gear (smaller cog).No, if your levers are properly positioned, you can reach the thumb shifters while down on the drops.

In addition to the already stated differences between Shimano and Campy (durability, finish, clean-routed cables, shifting mechanism) the biggest difference for me is that Shimano was the originator of indexed shifting and integrated brake/shifters. So, in my mind, they are considered pioneers of new technology (albeit 10 speed and the wide use of carbon). Campy seems to be a "follower". Nothing wrong with that, though, as we can find many cases in other businesses where the "followers" have come from behind to overtake the leaders. Older Campy groups never felt "right" - it may have looked pretty but it felt rather "raw". The newer Campy groups have risen to meet the Shimano challenge and have exceeded in a few areas.

I still find the thumb shifter on the Campy lever to be stiff. I like the smooth lever throw of Shimano. The indexed clicks are sharp and audible to just the right amount. The quick release on the brakes are more adjustable and fine-tune centering is very easy with the use of an allen key. Shimano does use more plastics, no carbon, little titanium, and assembly tolerances may not be as tight as Campy.
Campy parts look the business! Even the new Dura Ace cannot topple the looks of Record Carbon. Record parts are jewels...and yes they will last longer. But I won't have a bike for more than 10 years anyway. There will be so much advancement in technology in that time that I'd want to change the parts.

I will soon have Dura Ace 10 on one of my bikes and I'm planning on putting Chorus 10 on another bike next year summer. I'm sure both will ride wonderfully!

A large factor in choosing between Campy and Shimano is your price point. If you can spend $1100 to $1300 on a groupset then Campy Record may be the way to go. If you can only spend $600 then Shimano Ultegra may be the best choice. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the lower end Campy groups may not operate as smoothly as their more expensive brothers.

The best thing to do is go out and ride them both - good luck in your decision.

BFL-

I find the Ergo levers very intuitive. The lever behind the brake moves the chain in the same direction that you push the lever- towards the other side of the bike, and the thumb button is the opposite, it moves the chain towards the side it is on.

DEMON

With Shimano I think of it this way:
Large lever goes to a larger chainring or cog, smaller lever goes the smaller chainring or cog.

The other (actually the best and most important) great feature of the Ergo levers is the quick release mechanism. Because it merely allows the lever to extend further outward there is no loss of braking power if you forget to reset it after replacing your wheel. For instance, after repairing a flat. Nice feature if you suddenly find you forgot to do it and you're on a steep descent!

Kevin - You definitely do not have to change the crankset to go from 8 to 9 to 10 speed with Campy. You change the large chainring. Same with front derailleur. Pop out the bush insert and it becomes compatible. So not as extreme as you state. There is a problem in that 8-speed Ergo internals are no longer available and you have to go to 9-speed if something breaks. But that is only on '97 and older levers. And costs less than $100 to upgrade the levers (I just bought the parts to do so on my '97 Athena levers).


Thanks for the info, ParamountScapin!

Re. the differences between Shimano STI and Campy Ergo shifters: Here's a good rundown of the different types of shifters from the folks that brought you the beautiful Rivendell "retro-design" bikes:
Bicycle Shifters 101 (http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/101_shifters.html)

I just want to add one more detail about Campy that others might have mentioned. The Campy components definitely require some breaking in before working smoothly. The shifting may seem a bit stiff in the beginning but it gets smoother over time as the cogs in the lever get broken in. Campy hubs are also very loud in the beginning, but as the pawl wears down a bit the noise also becomes less noticeable.

I think whichever system you end up spending the most time with becomes the most comfortable one. So in practice, the differences should matter too much.

-Kevin

"Shimano was the originator of indexed shifting and integrated brake/shifters. "
An there I was thinking that Suntour pioneered indexing and brake-mounted Command Shifters.

Example (not mine) of Suntour
http://www.cs.unca.edu/~boyd/touring/bike/bike.htm

Suntour patented that Slant Parallelogram derailleur on which all of today's indexed derailleurs are based. The old Suprebe Pro, Cyclone and Sprint derailleurs are examples. Before that all of the other derailleurs pointed straight down to the ground like Record and the older Shimano stuff. The first Indexed system I remember was Dura Ace - but I was poorer then and didn't really pay too much attention until I finally saved up for DA. So I don't really know if Shimano or Suntour came up with it. I think it was Shimano. Shimano definately came up with the STI first. Before DA I had Suntour friction and loved it. I thought Suntour made great stuff and I wish they were still around to make things interesting.

On the campy shifting - I like it a bit better than Shimano because you push the levers in the direction of the shifts. I also like the fact that you can shift almost the entire 10 speed cog on one push and becasue of the brake QR. Not a thing wrong with Shimano. You get used to what you ride and they all work well.