Advocacy & Safety - Dutch Attitude on Helmets

This is extremely important; do NOT wear a helmet. Only three types of people wear a helmet on a bike in Holland:

The English.
North Americans.
The mentally afflicted.

The English and Americans wear helmets because in their worlds common sense no longer rules and people must be safe from their own actions at all times. Also it is a well known fact that when Americans fall off a bike they fall on their heads, why this should be we do not know. God gave us each an ass, he appears to have given many Americans more than one ass and yet they do not use them, you have to wonder why. On the rare occasion a Dutchman comes off their bike we fall on our well padded behinds (and it’s ALWAYS the fault of a German motorist).

http://willothewisp.org/html/bicycle_culture.html

There are only two things I can't stand, people who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch.

There are only two things I can't stand, people who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch.

you have just placed yourself squarely in the former category

you have just placed yourself squarely in the former category
Don't ya think that was the intent of the statement - a little humor at one own expense.

Al

Also they don't support road handlebars and say we should have bells.

According to a 2000 study at Rutgers University, in the Netherlands, city dwellers travel by bike more than 25 percent of the time. For each 100 million of those trips, 1.6 Dutch cyclists were killed in accidents in 1995. By contrast, U.S. city dwellers travel by bike less than 1 percent of the time and have 26.3 bike fatalities for every 100 million trips

According to a 2000 study at Rutgers University, in the Netherlands, city dwellers travel by bike more than 25 percent of the time. For each 100 million of those trips, 1.6 Dutch cyclists were killed in accidents in 1995. By contrast, U.S. city dwellers travel by bike less than 1 percent of the time and have 26.3 bike fatalities for every 100 million trips

Makes sense when you have to play with.... about 25 times the amount of car traffic over bike traffic.

where does one pick up one of those high heeled "accessories"?

All I learned is that the Dutch are racist against Germans, woot. Should we take that example too?

All I learned is that the Dutch are racist against Germans, woot. Should we take that example too?



This just isn't possible. Germans are white. Dutch are white. So, basically you are saying that Dutch people hate whites.

Perhaps the Dutch can give me a few tips on how to fall on my ass as opposed to anywhere else during a crash (which are usually uncontrolled). I'd like to learn.

Makes sense when you have to play with.... about 25 times the amount of car traffic over bike traffic.

it's more than that.

from
http://www.bicycling.com/article/1,6610,s-3-12-16637-5,00.html

The United States has the highest traffic-death rate (15 per 100,000 residents) of all developed democratic countries. In places such as Germany and the Netherlands, traffic regulations are actually biased in favor of cyclists and pedestrians-in the event of a bike-car collision, the legal burden is on motorists to prove that they weren't at fault, and Dutch drivers are financially liable even if cyclists are at fault.

take a look at these dutch riders in traffic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj8uzIYUPEQ&feature=related

not a helmet in site and the best head injury rate in the world

According to a 2000 study at Rutgers University, in the Netherlands, city dwellers travel by bike more than 25 percent of the time. For each 100 million of those trips, 1.6 Dutch cyclists were killed in accidents in 1995. By contrast, U.S. city dwellers travel by bike less than 1 percent of the time and have 26.3 bike fatalities for every 100 million trips


In all fairness, you need numbers per kilometre (or 100 000 km). From what I have gathered, amongst the differences between North America and the Netherlands is that they tend to cycle much shorter distances, at slower pace, and quite often in a not vehicular manner (because of different traffic laws).

And then, traffic density differs, both amongst car traffic and bike traffic.

I think the biggest difference is the attitude of both the drivers and the cyclists

This is extremely important; do NOT wear a helmet. Only three types of people wear a helmet on a bike in Holland:

The English.
North Americans.
The mentally afflicted.

The English and Americans wear helmets because in their worlds common sense no longer rules and people must be safe from their own actions at all times. Also it is a well known fact that when Americans fall off a bike they fall on their heads, why this should be we do not know. God gave us each an ass, he appears to have given many Americans more than one ass and yet they do not use them, you have to wonder why. On the rare occasion a Dutchman comes off their bike we fall on our well padded behinds (and it’s ALWAYS the fault of a German motorist).

http://willothewisp.org/html/bicycle_culture.html


PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD! TROLL! TROLL! TROLL!

yeah, avoid discussing an area of the world where cycling is an important part of society. Where it is normal to use a bike to get around. Where motorists respect cyclists.

The helmet issue is really just a red herring. The point is the lack of common sense in addressing certain transportation issues.

http://i.treehugger.com/files/motherbike.jpg

Also it is a well known fact that when Americans fall off a bike they fall on their heads, why this should be we do not know. God gave us each an ass, he appears to have given many Americans more than one ass and yet they do not use them, you have to wonder why.

I usually land on my chest or shoulder, depending on whether I flipped while going over the front wheel.

Kind of apples and oranges. Culture, rules, history, distance of trips, etc.

Would a factor in the crashes be the type of frame the Dutch use? I see quite a few pics of them on what we would call "women's bikes", which are great for utility cycling. I'm wondering if the type of frame allows the Dutch to avoid falling head first when they go down?

I usually land on my chest or shoulder, depending on whether I flipped while going over the front wheel.

Looks like the both the shoulder and the chest/back/pelvis (trunk) injury areas are more frequent than head injuries in collisions between bikes and cars in BC.

The legs gets it the most though (followed by the arm)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1052/697621382_206635fa0b.jpg

Looks like the both the shoulder and the chest/back/pelvis (trunk) injury areas are more frequent than head injuries in collisions between bikes and cars in BC.


I only collide with the ground, usually solo. :thumb:

Hmmm, if you add the percentages cumulatively from my crash last Saturday, it came up to 58.8%

I'm ok if I damage my shin, arm, etc. I'd rather keep my brain in good condition so I can destroy it from within.

Tom do you feel 58% hurt?

the issue is in holland the only time bikes and cars meet are in areas where there is SO much congestion or Road furnature that cars CANNOT go faster then a bicycle. and speeding is a VERY serious penalty has my credit card noticed when i got a $300 ticket for 65Kph in a 55KPH in Utrect. In the states the police dont really consider ticketing until your are 10 mph over the speed limit. So i thought that 65KPH in a 55 kph would be fine. since that is really only 5 MPH over the limit.

the issue is in holland the only time bikes and cars meet are in areas where there is SO much congestion or Road furnature that cars CANNOT go faster then a bicycle. and speeding is a VERY serious penalty has my credit card noticed when i got a $300 ticket for 65Kph in a 55KPH in Utrect. In the states the police dont really consider ticketing until your are 10 mph over the speed limit. So i thought that 65KPH in a 55 kph would be fine. since that is really only 5 MPH over the limit.

:thumb: (Not that you personally got the ticket, just the concept.)

Looks like the both the shoulder and the chest/back/pelvis (trunk) injury areas are more frequent than head injuries in collisions between bikes and cars in BC.

The legs gets it the most though (followed by the arm)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1052/697621382_206635fa0b.jpg

I'm surprised face and arm injuries aren't that bad considering the guy's frame suddenly disintegrated.

I'm surprised face and arm injuries aren't that bad considering the guy's frame suddenly disintegrated.

Thanks for my laughs for the day Will! :roflmao2:

no wonder he got into a wreck. No hands means no brakes!

I think the biggest difference is the attitude of both the drivers and the cyclists

Bingo!:thumb: and the infrastructure certainly helps!

Aaron:)

Would a factor in the crashes be the type of frame the Dutch use? I see quite a few pics of them on what we would call "women's bikes", which are great for utility cycling. I'm wondering if the type of frame allows the Dutch to avoid falling head first when they go down?

the kind that doesn't get much faster than 15 kph.

I don't think it matters much if you're going 15 kph or 30 kph when that distracted, self important, impatient SUV driver makes that left right into you. Same things going to happen.

I don't think it matters much if you're going 15 kph or 30 kph when that distracted, self important, impatient SUV driver makes that left right into you. Same things going to happen.

clearly you've never been on a bike in the netherlands.

it's the other idiots on bikes, tourist on bikes, stoned tourists walking on bike paths, and the schmucks on scooters delivering pizzas that you have to worry about.

no wonder he got into a wreck. No hands means no brakes!
Its stealth SS with a coaster brake.

clearly you've never been on a bike in the netherlands.

it's the other idiots on bikes, tourist on bikes, stoned tourists walking on bike paths, and the schmucks on scooters delivering pizzas that you have to worry about.

I haven't, but I have been hit by other schmucks on bikes here. Got right back up. It's the collisions with motorists that have the greater potential for injury and I believe there are far fewer of them in the netherlands than north America

mmmm...korenwijn

Perhaps the Dutch can give me a few tips on how to fall on my ass as opposed to anywhere else during a crash (which are usually uncontrolled). I'd like to learn.

think a big contributor is the riding position, the typical US road position starts you out positioned with your head aimed at the ground, and the whole body positioned lower so if you want to get your tail to hit first it requires some acrobatics.

The more upright riding position places you in a better position to see and react, while also placing your head and shoulders in a more visible position. You can not only see better, but you can be seen easier, both contribute to lowered accident rates.

Ken.

I usually land on my chest or shoulder, depending on whether I flipped while going over the front wheel.

i hate wearing helmets its very uncool because they make them look uncool. i do have war helmet for when i go riding into the city

http://www.doperone.com/rawar_helmet.jpg

Eddy Merckx never wore a helmet. You think you are better than Eddy Merckx? You're not. o wn ed.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Eddy_Merckx_1966.jpg

mmm...stroopwafels

clearly you've never been on a bike in the netherlands.

it's the other idiots on bikes, tourist on bikes, stoned tourists walking on bike paths, and the schmucks on scooters delivering pizzas that you have to worry about.

don't forget the stoned tourists riding bikes and eating pizza....that'd be me.

This is extremely important; do NOT wear a helmet. Only three types of people wear a helmet on a bike in Holland:

The English.
North Americans.
The mentally afflicted.
That's silly.

:)

Can't "the Dutch" find something more interesting to rag us about?

;)

(I always wear a helmet. I only really "used" my helmet once in the summer of 2001 when I crashed and landed on my face. But that one time made me a believer in wearing one.)

:beer:

Only three types of people wear a helmet on a bike in Holland:

The English.
North Americans.
The mentally afflicted.


It looks like I need to wear two helmets if I come to visit. :innocent:

think a big contributor is the riding position, the typical US road position starts you out positioned with your head aimed at the ground, and the whole body positioned lower so if you want to get your tail to hit first it requires some acrobatics.

The more upright riding position places you in a better position to see and react, while also placing your head and shoulders in a more visible position. You can not only see better, but you can be seen easier, both contribute to lowered accident rates.

Ken.

In a proper touring crouch (less severe than a full time trial tilt), I have superb visibility and maneuverability. Our motorists' speeds are higher, and I think this accounts for much of the difference in cyclist mortality and morbidity rates. The Dutch probably could benefit from helmets, which are quite effective in reducing traumatic brain injury in typical lower-speed falls. I choose to wear a helmet, and I do not criticize anyone else for choosing to or not to.

In a proper touring crouch (less severe than a full time trial tilt), I have superb visibility and maneuverability. Our motorists' speeds are higher, and I think this accounts for much of the difference in cyclist mortality and morbidity rates. The Dutch probably could benefit from helmets, which are quite effective in reducing traumatic brain injury in typical lower-speed falls. I choose to wear a helmet, and I do not criticize anyone else for choosing to or not to.

Mortality? Is that all were' concerned about? LOL!

I want to be able to walk away after my head impacts the street at full speed regardless of whether I'm hit by a car or not. I want to be able to go to work and not end up on disability the rest of my life. I don't want to end up in a coma or suffer permanent brain damage of any kind. If I'm killed, my troubles are over but if I can't ever work again my troubles have just begun. That's why the helmet stays on.

Mortality? Is that all were' concerned about? LOL!

I want to be able to walk away after my head impacts the street at full speed regardless of whether I'm hit by a car or not. I want to be able to go to work and not end up on disability the rest of my life. I don't want to end up in a coma or suffer permanent brain damage of any kind. If I'm killed, my troubles are over but if I can't ever work again my troubles have just begun. That's why the helmet stays on.


Well, a typical bicycle helmet isn't going to prevent traumatic brain injury in a high speed crash. Protects from the fall down, to some extent, but not from stopping against something from "full speed." Especially today's helmets with weaker standards. I used to use MSR helmets long ago. Hot hard shell. They'd work - I've seen 2 in use where the energy absorption systems were used up. One was mine, but not in cycling.

I have mixed feelings on modern bike helmets. I've read reports and looked at some crashed helmets. The foam doesn't usually seem compressed. The helmet comes apart. Does seem to protect against abrasion, but also gives the chance for enhanced rotational injury.

Were I in the Nederlands, I wouldn't be wearing a helmet. In this country, I usually wear one, but sometimes don't for commuting. I'm not moving too fast, I know the roads, the drivers know me. I also tend to weave just a little and the cars always go by with lots of room. Perhaps a baseball cap covered in aluminum foil would be even better at getting cars to pass widely!

For performance cycling I wear a helmet. In part to avoid getting yelled at by do-gooder cyclists. I'm still not convinced that the relatively slight amount of impact protection outweighs the greater chance of my head hitting and being rotated more strongly. Abrasion resistance and a talisman effect tip the balance.

Oddly, I feel as if I don't need a helmet on a MUP, even though I realize they're extremely dangerous. I know intellectually that the helmet protects from the drop to the ground, not the forward speed, but somehow going slow doesn't count as much as going fast. Interesting perceptions. Of course, I always wear a helmet on a MUP. Scary places.

Maybe Dutch cyclists worry about injury less because their drivers, unlike Americans, just might be human!

Oddly, I feel as if I don't need a helmet on a MUP, even though I realize they're extremely dangerous. I know intellectually that the helmet protects from the drop to the ground, not the forward speed, but somehow going slow doesn't count as much as going fast. Interesting perceptions. Of course, I always wear a helmet on a MUP. Scary places.

I doubt hitting a pedestrian or another cyclist or even a dog will ever impart as much damage to you as being hit by a moving car... I find MUPs quite safe over the typical high speed arterials filled with cell phone or fast food or otherwise distracted drivers. The laws of physics agree with me.

This is extremely important; do NOT wear a helmet. Only three types of people wear a helmet on a bike in Holland:

The English.
North Americans.
The mentally afflicted.

The English and Americans wear helmets because in their worlds common sense no longer rules and people must be safe from their own actions at all times. Also it is a well known fact that when Americans fall off a bike they fall on their heads, why this should be we do not know. God gave us each an ass, he appears to have given many Americans more than one ass and yet they do not use them, you have to wonder why. On the rare occasion a Dutchman comes off their bike we fall on our well padded behinds (and it’s ALWAYS the fault of a German motorist).

http://willothewisp.org/html/bicycle_culture.html

Ha ha.

I think we all admire the Dutch for their bicycle paradise.

A month or so ago, I saw a video about Holland's bicycle culture. The vid said that the average bicycler travels at 9 miles per hour - AND, in many cases, bicycles are removed from automobile traffic. So, we can say that bicycling in Holland is much like jogging in the USA.

I agree, under those circumstances, a helmet would be mostly safety overkill.

In the USA where many commuters travel at 16+ mph and are mixing with traffic that frequently grinds along at 45+ mph, a helmet is the very least a responsible rider would have.

Ha ha.

I think we all admire the Dutch for their bicycle paradise.

A month or so ago, I saw a video about Holland's bicycle culture. The vid said that the average bicycler travels at 9 miles per hour - AND, in many cases, bicycles are removed from automobile traffic. So, we can say that bicycling in Holland is much like jogging in the USA.

I agree, under those circumstances, a helmet would be mostly safety overkill.

In the USA where many commuters travel at 16+ mph and are mixing with traffic that frequently grinds along at 45+ mph, a helmet is the very least a responsible rider would have.

And about 25% of the trips made by the Dutch are made by bike... less then 2% of the trips made by Americans are made by bike. What might be the average speed of cyclists here if there were 10 fold more cyclists?