Fifty Plus (50+) - Bike too small? How do you know?

Hi! I'm new here. 54 years oooooooold
I have a Trek 520 road bike. I'm 5' 11" and wear 33 pant leg.

I sometimes have knee pain. I bought the bike about 3 years ago and the knee pain was so bad I hung the bike for almost all that time.
Now I have it out again and have been going back to the bike store I bought it from. I should have done this three years ago.

The seat was too high so they lowered it. It has three front gears. They told me for now just keep it in the middle one and just spin. This has helped immensely.
I believe the frame is 52cm.

One of the mechanics there says the frame is too small.
The other guy there told me (when the mechanic was not around) that the frame is fine.
The mechanic told me that he was biking on a smaller bike and his knees were hurting so bad he had to walk home. And he was a young guy. He bought a larger bike and no longer do his knees hurt.

I do a cadance of around 77 to 80 and around 11 to 14 mph.

My seat is now just a little higher than the handlebars. Yet it feels uncomfortable on my hands to put pressure on the bars. If I got a bigger frame wouldn't the handlebars be further more from the seat causing me to lean more onto the bars?

Any ideas?

Thanks!
Tony

Have you got pictures of you and the bike?

52cm does sound a tad small at 5'11''

I would recommend a fitting but that costs.
george

Too small.. hard to tell if that's the culprit with your knee pain. But having had a
bike that was too small I do know they're a pain.

What you need to find out is the top tube length you need. It will likely be 58+/-

For a rough starting point...............not the final perfect fit by far.

1 measure your inseam height using the book method.

Find a large book, stand against the wall, push the book against the wall to keep it level and up against your crotch as hard as is comfortable. Have an assistant measure from the floor up to the top edge of the book. This is your inseam height for bike measurements. (do it with you shoes on)

Multiply the inseam measurement by 0.67 This is the approximate starting point for your proper bike size. You can convert back and forth from inches to cm depending on the type of bike.

In addition, you measure you overall height and devide it by your inseam height. If the answer is greater than 2.2 then you need to get a slightly larger bike than indicated in the begining. If the answer is less than 2.0 you are pointed toward a slightly smaller bike.

None of this is to be considered as the last word in bike fit for you, merely a starting point.

Thanks. By the way, when standing over the top tube my pubic bone is about 4 inches above it with shoes on. About 3 1/2 without shoes.

Have you got pictures of you and the bike?

52cm does sound a tad small at 5'11''

I would recommend a fitting but that costs.
george

It seems small with that inseam. I'm 6' 1" with a 30.5/31 inseam, and I'd probably fit that bike, if the top tube were long enough.

Sorry, had to edit previous post due to premature Entering.

Thanks. By the way, when standing over the top tube my pubic bone is about 4 inches above it with shoes on. About 3 1/2 without shoes.

That sounds pretty small to me. However, if the bike has a long enough top tube for you to stretch out without banging your elbows with your knees and a long enough seatpost to give you a proper leg extension, you should be fine. Just for comparison, I wear 30" inseam trousers and find older 55cm C-T frames ideal. My 54cm Peugeot also works out well, because of its long top tube.

The best advice you got was to use the lower gears and to keep your crank cadence up, instead of mashing the pedals.

I'm 5' 9". 30-inch inseam. Ride a Lemond 53, and it feels good. All other things being equal, racers seem to like smaller frames than us touring types, but that's my experience, fwiw.

Maybe it's just me but I feel like when I'm riding on a level surface and reach to grab the horns of my handlebars it is just too uncomfortable. And to reach way down to where the handlebars loop down under is too uncomfortable. So I do most of my riding by grabbing onto the handlebars that run across the top.

The seat post can go very high. My legs were pretty much straight before when at the bottom of the pedal. Now there is about a 10 degree bend.

I have not been wearing my lock-in shoes lately either but my feet don't move much anyway.

For the life of me though I don't know how some can do a cadance of 90 to 100. I'd get burnt out after about 10 minutes of that speed! Maybe as I get more seasoned I can up the cadance to about 90.

Thanks everyone for your input.

Also I wonder if I could scavange most of my parts of my Trek 520 if I did go with a different, larger frame?

Tony

Assume the geometry is still the same as on Trek web site. There is no size 52 listed. Just S-M-L etc. The frame size should be on the seattube somewhere. The small has an effective toptube of 54cm so this bike is in the traditional LeMond frame style(longer toptube relative to other brands).

Based on what you have said the frame is too small for your size body. However you are much better off riding a frame that is too small than one that is too large. You may be able to make the stem and seatpost adjustments that will make it work. Traditional sizing theory calls for a 5 degree knee bend when the pedal is at the bottom of the rotation. 10 degrees sounds like knee pain in the making.

A picture of you on the bike would help greatly.

Just to throw in another rough measurement, you can find a pretty good starting point for seat height by setting it so if you peddle with your heel your leg is fully extended at the bottom of the stroke. This should give you about the right extension when you move your foot back to peddle on the ball of the foot. From recent personal experience, a seat that is too low will induce knee pain.

Most road bikes are set up with the handlebars lower than the seat so that is sort of to be expected. Part of the design is intended to put part of your weight on your arms. How much lower than the seat depends on the specific model, lower roughly equates to more agressive. The extension out to the brake hoods or to the drops may just be something you haven't put in enough miles to get comfortable with. When I bought a road bike after putting in several thousand miles on a comfort bike it was a huge adjustment that I'm still working through. Only now do I find myself spending most of my time out on the hoods and only going to the bar tops to stretch or take a drink, etc. You might find a set of decent padded bike gloves is a real help, I did.

Knee problems can also be a result of the seat being too far forward. My wife was having knee pain till I moved her seat back a little bit. As for frame size, yours sounds a bit small for you. I'm 6' 1" and am comfortable on 60cm to 62cm road bikes.

+1 on some good gloves. More comfortable and will protect your hands in case of a crash (I know this from experience).

Knee problems can also be a result of the seat being too far forward. My wife was having knee pain till I moved her seat back a little bit. As for frame size, yours sounds a bit small for you. I'm 6' 1" and am comfortable on 60cm to 62cm road bikes.

+1 on some good gloves. More comfortable and will protect your hands in case of a crash (I know this from experience).

For the rest of Us--It may be a compact frame so untill we get pics- We cannot tell.

If you can get the saddle high enough and in the fore and aft position for the knees- then the frame can be made to fit. Now I actually ride compact frames and even go for a size that is too small. This gives me a shorter top tube and aids my neck.

We do need pics of you on the bike- but so you don't feel too downhearted. Attachment is of my Bianchi- You can see how compact frames differ as the road bike is just one size larger.

Sounds too small for a regular frame.

I am about 5'11", with a pants inseam of 29" and use a 55 cm bike. However your geometry may vary.

On a regular frame, don't worry too much about the standover height - especially for a road bike.

You might want to get your cadence up to about 90.

Have fun and welcome.

(54 is YOUNG)

I am a woman with longer legs than upper body, am 5' 8" and ride a 52 (and I think the bike is too small for me). I would think for your size you should be on a 56 or 58 but you need to get measured. There is no set size for everyone.

Tony,

The frame is just too small for you. I think you would be much more comfortable on a larger frame.
4 inches of clearance over the top tube says it all. An inch is plenty. Your top tube is too short and you are all scrunched up. You don't need to spend $$$ on a fitting as there is plenty of info on the net. Try www.rivbike.com and look a LeMonde's fitting rec's too. The salesperson that sold you that bike needs to be better trained. :notamused:

I am 5'8" and ride a 55 Bleriot. I was in between a 55CM an 57CM but chose the 55. The 520 is a touring
bike and the Riv method of fitting applies.

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/2008/road/520/520/

Floridaboy, according to Riv and my calculations, my PBH is 35.5 inches and subtract from that about 4 inches the top of my seat to the center of my crank should be 31.5 inches but right now it is 30.5 inches so I guess I'm not too far off with that. (using PBH - 10 to 10.5 cm) where PBH = pubic bone height.

Or if using the other method on Rivs site (PBH x 0.873= SH.) I get 35.5 x 0.873 = 30.99 inches. So I'm really close just from what I played around as to what was comfortable for me without measuring.

Tomorrow I hope to post a pic or two of me on the bike.

I just find it hard to believe that your frame is a 52CM. From what you measured you seem to be close. Pics would help.

I'm 5' 7.5" and have a 28.25" inseam. I've been laser-measured and fit by multiple shops. On a compact geometry frame, on most bikes, the proper size for me is 52cm.

I'd guess 5'11" w/33" inseam as being no less than a 55-56, unless you have very short arms. I know guys of your size who ride 58's.

I'm 5' 7.5" and have a 28.25" inseam. I've been laser-measured and fit by multiple shops. On a compact geometry frame, on most bikes, the proper size for me is 52cm.

I'd guess 5'11" w/33" inseam as being no less than a 55-56, unless you have very short arms. I know guys of your size who ride 58's.

I'm 5'11", 33" inseam. I ride a 56cm and 57cm road bikes, a 54 cm TT bike, an 18" hard tail MTB. I size my bikes by effective top tube, on the road bikes and MTB that's always 56-57cm (TT bikes are different).

I just find it hard to believe that your frame is a 52CM. From what you measured you seem to be close. Pics would help.

I just checked my frame and it states it is a 53.5 cm 21" frame.
If I could find my card reader I could snag the pics off of my camera card. I'll just have to wait till tomorrow. I believe my arms are normal length.

This is me. So, what do you experts think of me on this size bike?

Tony

This is me. So, what do you experts think of me on this size bike?

Tony

Your arms look locked and you look a little cramped.

I just checked my frame and it states it is a 53.5 cm 21" frame.
If I could find my card reader I could snag the pics off of my camera card. I'll just have to wait till tomorrow. I believe my arms are normal length.

I'm 5'3" with a 30" inseam. I just bought a Trek 520 - 19" (48cm). They had a 21" at the LBS but it was just a tad too big for me. I could straddle the bike but I didn't have any room left between me and the bike:twitchy:

If your toes are not currently interfering with the front tire when your pedals are horizontal and you turn the front wheel, that is a good sign.

If you can get an assistant to drop a string from the front of your kneecap when the pedals are at the 3 and 9 oclock position you can decide if you need to offset the saddle to the rear of front. The approximate point (again, this is a starting point, adjust for your own comfort) is to have the knee in line with the pedal.

It is important to get that saddle front/rear position and the height setting right before making any final decisions about the rest of the bike.

In the picture, you look like many of us would if we had our hands on the bar itself instead of the hoods. It may be possible that a longer stem would make you more comfortable. Get the seat/pedal relationship right first and ride to see how you feel. More decisions can be made later.

I assume that if this frame can be made to fit you that that is preferable to buying a new one.

This is me. So, what do you experts think of me on this size bike?

Tony

That bike is too small for you, my humble opinion.

I would go back to the shop and ask to ride a similar bike in the next size up whatever that is (it may not be a 520) and if the next size feels better try two sizes up for comparison. The picture does look cramped. If the larger bike feels more comfortable there is the answer. Now the next question is what to do about it. If you can afford a new bike there you go. If not you might try a longer stem and seatpost. Trek 520s are in demand among tourers - you would not get the price of a new bike but but would likely find buyers if you decide to sell

Thanks. By the way, when standing over the top tube my pubic bone is about 4 inches above it with shoes on. About 3 1/2 without shoes.


Hi, Tony! I'm another Michigander, in the Ann Arbor area. I'd be glad to help you by taking a look, if you'd like.

There are no hard and fast rules in bike sizing, but it does sound like a 52 cm is smaller than your optimum size. I'm 5'6" and 52 is good for me, possibly a bit small. The standover criterion, while steeped in tradition, is probably not as important as the distance from the seat tube to the head tube, and the ability to raise the bars enough relative to the saddle. You can almost always get a saddle high enough with say a 410 mm Thomson seatpost, but not always get a handlebar both high enough and far enough away from you, with good aesthetics. Others will add that the weight distribution on the bike won't be right with the wrong frame size, as well.

Just to apply the sizing "rules" I know: pbh of 35.5"=90.2cm. Multiply by 1.09 (LeMond method) gives that your seat top should be 98.3 cm above your lower pedal spindle, with the cranks in line with the seat tube. Assuming you have 17 cm cranks, your seat should be 81.3 cm above the center of the crank measured along the seat tube. Multiplying the PBH times 0.67, the seat tube length center-center should be 60.5 cm, way bigger than 52 cm, but it seems rather tall. But this also suggests a top tube length more like 57 or 58 cm estimated for you.

These calculations are all highly debatable, but this method has gotten me in the right ballpark, and seems to show you are not in the right ballpark. I'd try to test-ride a friend's bike that is at least 56 cm in seat tube length c-c.

With that short Trek head tube it will be hard to get the stem raised high enough to get near the seat. For beginnign riders, casual riders, or our age group it's often suggested to put the bars between 1 and 3 inches below the seat top. I like them about 2 cm below the seat top.

PM me if you want to talk. If you're in my area, I need another riding buddy.

Road Fan

+1 way too small.

For casual riding there really isn't a black and white right and wrong fit. You gotta do what you gotta do and listen to your body.

When riding aggresively I've always found that much of my weight is held up by my legs and stomache tension and that relieves my arms and wrists. However because you're upping your cadence to reduce the load on your knees that won't work for you and you may just need to face the fact that you need to set up your bike with a more upright cockpit if your wrists are aching. You may be able to get that from a stem that has a bit more rise in it or maybe you just need to switch to something like the Northroads bar setup or some other alternative handlebar setup that'll get you to where you're comfy.

In the meantime you may want to play with sliding the seat fore and aft in small increments and adjust the saddle height at the same time to find the best spot for your knee. It may also be that you could benifit from a shorter crankset so that your total knee angle movement over a full rev isn't as much. If you're riding with a 175mm crankset arm length now try to get a set of 170 arms to try and see if that helps your situation. Saddle height and fore aft repositioning will be needed to find the sweet spot for you. I would concentrate on how your leg and knees feel at first unless you find that your upper body is so stretched and stressed that you feel awkward. If so then do a basic drastic change to the bars to at least move your upper body to a position that is reasonably comfy and then go back to concentrating on find tuning your saddle position in both planes to ease your knee as much as possible.

If you find that your saddle seems like a wedge between your thighs you should try a skinnier one at least as an experiment. A saddle chosen for its "lounger" qualities may well be prying your thighs apart enough that the knees are being forced to compensate and sit at an odd angle. A narrow saddle may not feel all that great to your backside but you may find that it really let's your knee sit at its "happy angle". At the very least try a narrow saddle at first until you've find tuned your setup and only then work your way back to a wider saddle if you must. But watch for that wedge effect coming back.

While I agree that a fitting session is what you need you're not a racer so the typical racing fitment specialist may be well out of their element in your case. Finding someone that will fit you to other than racing specs may take some doing. And really your knee has the final say in your case. If you search around and read the various articles on the web on fitting you will soon have a good basic understanding of the issues and can then start experimenting on your own. Playing with varioius saddle changes is the first step and then go from there.

Don't forget to set the tilt as well. You want to feel your weight taken by the two sit bones and feel little or no pressure on the naughty bits in between and just forward of the sit bones. If it comes out tilted rather than level then so be it. Fit it to YOU and not what someone thinks it should be.

Once you've got the saddle setup done then work on the upper cockpit by changing stems or bars over to alternates. It sounds like you're much like me and seldom if ever get down into the drops anyway so going to a non drop style bar isn't the end of the world. Even with the handlebar swap you'll find that you still need to fiddle a little with stems to find that sweet spot. Having a LBS that works with you and lets you swap parts until you're set up is a very nice way to go.

From your picture and your descriptions you're certainly not a racer by any means. So why have a racing style setup and parts on the bike? IMHO this is just plain and simple the wrong bike for you regardless of frame size. Something more like the Boston Roadster shown at http://www.antbikemike.com/bostonroadster.html seems like it would be far more in keeping with your needs and the speeds you've described. It doesn't need to BE that bike (I understand it's rather pricey) but the style/setup is the thing here.

^^Great Googly Moogly! :twitchy: ;)

BCRider ------- good words. Lp

This is me. So, what do you experts think of me on this size bike?

Tony

It is just too small for you. I don't think you can get the bars high enough to be comfortable. It is a touring bike and the bars should be about the same height as the saddle. The shop did you a disservice.
*I* think a 58 to 60 CM frame is what you would be most comfortable on.

I am by far not the expert that many here are, but that bike is not your size. You look to scrunched up on it. You have received some good advice here, but I think the best by far is to go ride some different size bikes. I would try a 56 first and see how that feels. The 520's are very popular with tourers and commuters and you could sell yours easily. Please keep us posted on your progress

Thanks so much everyone for all your help.
There is a bike shop not too far from where I live and so I plan on checking them out.

Probably my bike will go on E-bay to help pay for a larger bike. The guy at that shop was very helpful. I asked him if I could just get a larger fram and canabalize all my parts. He said after paying for a new frame and the cost of swapping everying out I'd be better off just buying a new complete bike.

Now that I know so much more from what all of you have shared I am armed to the teeth with the proper information so that my next bike really will fit me much better.

This is what I really like about this site. It is about real people taking the time to help others. Thanks so much!

Tony

Be sure to check out what frame you're getting. For your inseam I'd say a 58 or maybe 60 cm in the old style format for a road stlye bike. However if it's one of the modern style wider range styles with the sloping top tubes then a medium to large is about what you want and then outfit it from there.

You may want to look at something like a Surly Long Haul Trucker as a great town bike that you can fit racks to and real fenders and just swap out the bars and brake levers for a set of North Road bars and regular canti brake levers. And being the bike it is the lugs for racks and fenders are all there for you.

The pic looks like the bike is too small. One way to judge is to sit on the bike, in normal riding position. Look down at the handlebar-if the front axle is in line with the bar, the size is probably ok. If the front axle is way out in front of the bar, then too small, conversely, if the axle is way behind the bar, then too large. Of course, you can get some adjustment with different stem lengths, but it's a starting point.

Too Small. needs 2" taller. 5" longer reach to handle bars.
I had the same condition with my first bike.
A small bike doesn't ever seem right no matter what you do to it.

You may want to look at something like a Surly Long Haul Trucker as a great town bike that you can fit racks to and real fenders and just swap out the bars and brake levers for a set of North Road bars and regular canti brake levers. And being the bike it is the lugs for racks and fenders are all there for you.

About how heavy is a Surly Long Haul Trucker compared to a Trek 520? Is it a tank?

The pic looks like the bike is too small. One way to judge is to sit on the bike, in normal riding position. Look down at the handlebar-if the front axle is in line with the bar, the size is probably ok. If the front axle is way out in front of the bar, then too small, conversely, if the axle is way behind the bar, then too large. Of course, you can get some adjustment with different stem lengths, but it's a starting point.

Thanks! When looking down at the handlebar the front axle looks about an inch or so out in front.

Thanks! When looking down at the handlebar the front axle looks about an inch or so out in front.

BINGO!! I think it is safe to say your set up us too short. You at least need a longer stem, but a larger frame is probably in order.

About how heavy is a Surly Long Haul Trucker compared to a Trek 520? Is it a tank?

Not too heavy, Here is a 58cm on the bay http://cgi.ebay.com/Surly-Long-Haul-Trucker-Bike-58-cm-Ultegra-Chris-King_W0QQitemZ280228661976QQihZ018QQcategoryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohos ting

Here is a post about the trek 520 v. the LHT

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t284031-surly-long-haul-trucker-or-trek-520.html

BINGO!! I think it is safe to say your set up us too short. You at least need a longer stem, but a larger frame is probably in order.

That would be fine if Tony was a perfect specimen of a rider (sorry Tony but you admitted that you're not so I hope you take this in a friendly spirit.....:o) However keep in mind that he's trying to compensate for his knee and as a result is additionally suffering from the resulting load on his wrists causing some additional pain. So the classic performance/racy fit isn't going to work for him. We want to move him up to a more comfy semi upright position. Moving the bars even more forward towards the classic normal position is going to lean him even more forward and increase his problems rather than help them. Remember that the classic fitment cues such as that bars over the axle deal are biased towards getting the rider into an aggresive leaned forward performance riding posture.

That would be fine if Tony was a perfect specimen of a rider (sorry Tony but you admitted that you're not so I hope you take this in a friendly spirit.....:o) However keep in mind that he's trying to compensate for his knee and as a result is additionally suffering from the resulting load on his wrists causing some additional pain. So the classic performance/racy fit isn't going to work for him. We want to move him up to a more comfy semi upright position. Moving the bars even more forward towards the classic normal position is going to lean him even more forward and increase his problems rather than help them. Remember that the classic fitment cues such as that bars over the axle deal are biased towards getting the rider into an aggresive leaned forward performance riding posture.

No offense, but I think you are making a lot of assumptions and extrapolating a lot of very specific conclusions based on very little and very vague information. We are all making educated guesses at this point. Tony will eventually find the right answer. That may or may not be the upright position you are pushing.

He only asked if a longer reach would increase pressure on his wrists. Often the answer to that question is no. There is nothing racy about the baseline position of the bar blocking view of the hub with hands on the hoods as in his photo.

The pic looks like the bike is too small. One way to judge is to sit on the bike, in normal riding position. Look down at the handlebar-if the front axle is in line with the bar, the size is probably ok. If the front axle is way out in front of the bar, then too small, conversely, if the axle is way behind the bar, then too large. Of course, you can get some adjustment with different stem lengths, but it's a starting point.

This method has problems. What is "normal riding position?" Hands on top, on the drops, on the ramps, or on teh hoods? Each will give a different eye perspective. And normal (or preferred) position will change for different saddle positions and for different levels of restedness.

It's a general rule of thumb way to arrive at an approximate starting point from which to make adustments to preference and conditions. I use drops-hoods-tops hand positions as starting points for aggressive-recreational-casual riding setups.
It's a reference point. Nothing more, nothing less.

Bike too small? How do you know?

http://www.mrdoo.co.uk/bigminibike.jpg

This is me. So, what do you experts think of me on this size bike?

Tony

It does look cramped but you also look like you have adequate leg flex but it is hard to tell with the long pants. My fear is that if your seat height is right a larger frame will not correct a knee pain issue - it will make the bike more comfortable to ride in other ways though.

What you may have problems with is general weakness and tendonitus in the knees. Spinning will help with this - and you have said this seems to help. One sure fire sign of weak knees is the amount of pain you experience when hiking down a steep grade (not up). Also - once you inflame the knees, if you keep pushing them they just get worse and the pain comes faster - you need to let them heal completely.

I suggest you may want to try riding with knee braces - those neoprene sleeves you can buy in the drug store. I find they work for me until I get the knees strong enough to ride hard, then I gradually need them less and less into the season. I always wear them when riding over 50 miles just because I know they work.

Good luck - knee pain is a hard problem to solve. I hope you find your cure, it may be more than just the bike or the way you are riding it.

:)
Bike too small? How do you know?

http://www.mrdoo.co.uk/bigminibike.jpg

Well it looks like you can't see your front axle over your handlebars as you look down. That's good.
the front of your knees look like they are in line with the axis of your pedals. That's good too.
The only problem I can see, and I could be wrong, is that you are not achieving optimal leverage for racing with this bike as your legs do not achieve a good enough extension. I'd say to raise the seat just a little. Not much mind you. Just a little :)

cyclinfool, thanks so much for the good info about the knee braces!
I sit all day at the computer. This in itself is hard on my knees. It always feels great to straighten them all the way at my desk.

Everyone else, thanks for your very helpful advice. My twin now wants to get to bed and since the computer is in his room, I must acquiesce to his wishes and bid you adeau until tomorrow!

BTW, we'be been riding around Columbus, Ohio and really enjoying it! My knees have not hurt any.

Tony