What exatly is behind nutty motorist rage

[accorn]

Hey, just curious what the different opinions are about the source of driver angst with cyclists.
Why exactly do some many motorists hate cyclist as a lot. I know about feeling like we don't respect the road rules, but otherwise is it really THAT bad to share the road with something other then a 4 wheel gas sucker? I mean for example I don't sense the same level of annoyance for pedestrians crossing a street, at least in my area.

[StrangeWill]

Typical human behavior?

We have lots of cyclists with the same behavior, no matter how much in denial they are.

[mandovoodoo]

Several times the police have mentioned external events driving folks' anger behind the wheel. Cyclists just become easy targets for this free floating hostility.

The obviously gay, obviously fit, obviously make me feel like a fat, fry hogging tub of quivering lard cyclists seem to attract more ire. That might be some response to how guys in lycra are viewed in general and be tied to "no jeans and no beer belly = gay and therefore must be destroyed."

[cyclezealot]

The race to be ahead of the next car. Coupled with the fact traffic and road conditions , makes it impossible. Plus auto commuting is often self defeating, in that so many cars on the road prevents you from getting where you need be, on time. It's just too much pressure on about 20% of the motoring population. They just go postal and take it out on the rest of us./ Plus I think among many their glamorous car gives them some sense of power and self importance. Challenge their authority to use their auto the way they need and it insults their status.

[botto]

they're probably sick and tired of being called 'nutty', or outdated and asinine names like 'cager'.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

they're probably sick and tired of being called 'nutty', or outdated and asinine names like 'cager'.

Maybe some have read or heard too many comments from self proclaimed "fit", morally superior smugsters, gloating about the price of gas while stereotyping all motorists as nothing but drunken rednecks, lazy, fat, fry hogging tubs of quivering lards, or latte swilling soccer moms applying makeup in oversize SUVs.

[cyclezealot]

they're probably sick and tired of being called 'nutty', or outdated and asinine names like 'cager'.

And we are to think cager rage is just vented at cyclists? How about fellow motorists who call them jerks or worse.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

And we are to think cager rage is just vented at cyclists? How about fellow motorists who call them jerks or worse.

The OP in the first sentence specifically asked about rage directed at cyclists. I do agree that Real Jerks act like jerks and don't hold back in the presence of cyclists.

[cyclezealot]

Adjectives used by cyclists or motorists who are in fact still sane: such as jerk, arsehole, M.F., etc. Its all the same , whether originating from cyclists or other victims of motoring rage.

[ilmooz]

Maybe it's the "I Love OPEC" jersey I wear while filtering through traffic jams.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Maybe it's the "I Love OPEC" jersey I wear while filtering through traffic jams.

That would do it!:notamused:

[John E]

This is simply a response to traffic congestion, crowding, and frustration over long travel times. We are very visible, easy targets.

[genec]

Now can anyone explain the ILTB rage?

[Niten]

Maybe it's the "I Love OPEC" jersey I wear while filtering through traffic jams.

WANT!

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Now can anyone explain the ILTB rage?

I guess you are also an "OPEC lover". No doubt advertising those sentiments will make the "cagers" admire you, too, eh?

[patc]

Why exactly do some many motorists hate cyclist as a lot.

Two things: the common road-rage causes (e.g. the stress and frustrations of driving) combined with fear. Yup, I said fear - the motorists are afraid of us.

Motorists do not understand how bikes move on the road, they don't understand how fast we can move, that we may swerve a foot or more to avoid potholes, or that we should be treated like another vehicle. We're a big unknown to them, like seeing a kid playing on the street.

More than once in a conversation with a motorist, the phrase "I'm always afraid to hit them" or "I'm afraid they'll fall and I will hit them" came up.

[Blue Order]

"I'm afraid they'll fall and I will hit them"Translation:

"I'm not a very good driver; I follow them too closely-- more closely and faster than the law allows-- and I do this knowing that if the slightest thing goes wrong, say, they hit a patch of gravel or a pothole or something, they might fall and then I will hit them due to my own negligence. So I hate them for it."

[wahoonc]

Two things: the common road-rage causes (e.g. the stress and frustrations of driving) combined with fear. Yup, I said fear - the motorists are afraid of us.

Motorists do not understand how bikes move on the road, they don't understand how fast we can move, that we may swerve a foot or more to avoid potholes, or that we should be treated like another vehicle. We're a big unknown to them, like seeing a kid playing on the street.

More than once in a conversation with a motorist, the phrase "I'm always afraid to hit them" or "I'm afraid they'll fall and I will hit them" came up.

Given the fact that you have people on bicycles (notice I did NOT say "cyclists") meandering down the center turn lane, riding against traffic, riding on sidewalks, blowing red lights and stop signs, etc. What are drivers supposed to do?

Admittedly quite a few drivers should have never been given a license based on the way they drive either.

Aaron:)

[genec]

I guess you are also an "OPEC lover". No doubt advertising those sentiments will make the "cagers" admire you, too, eh?

Nah, I'm more in the "one less car" camp. As far as I am concerned motorists should "love us," as each cyclist represents a bit less crowed road, and one more open parking space.

[Bikepacker67]

As far as I am concerned motorists should "love us," as each cyclist represents a bit less crowed road, and one more open parking space.


Not to mention, a little less demand for their precious gasoline.

And as far as some cyclists breaking laws (stop signs, wrong-way riding, etc) it PALES in comparison to the percentage of motorists that regularly exceed speed limits on surface streets.

So stick that in your pipe, and toke on it, ILTB.

[patc]

Given the fact that you have people on bicycles (notice I did NOT say "cyclists") meandering down the center turn lane, riding against traffic, riding on sidewalks, blowing red lights and stop signs, etc. What are drivers supposed to do?

Admittedly quite a few drivers should have never been given a license based on the way they drive either.

Aaron:)

Its not a simple issue, I agree, however I think if all drivers used basic caution - keep appropriate distance to other vehicles, etc. - the fear would be greatly reduced. Its not so much that we have bad drivers (though there are plenty of those!) as a case of sloppy drivers.

Sloppy driving -> a lot of close calls -> increased fear and nervousness -> sloppy driving ...

Nervous and fearful drivers will be bad drivers, a situation which reinforces itself - we basically have a system were is the norm to speed, stop well past the stop line, roll through stops, speed through yellow lights, etc. I saw this in my grandfather several years ago - first accident made him less safe, not more. Two accidents later he stopped driving. I think that whole process took only 2 or 3 years.

[invisiblehand]

Typical human behavior?

We have lots of cyclists with the same behavior, no matter how much in denial they are.

:thumb:

[San Rensho]

If you listen to some on this forum, who we don't need to name because we all know who they are, drivers hatred of cyclists is caused exclusively because some cyclists roll through stop signs, or worse, go through a red light when there is no traffic and because of those morally reprehinsible "violations" all of us god fearing and perfect law abiding cyclists are now hated because of the actions of a few.

But in reality, I agree with others who have said that drivers are afraid, don't know how to deal with cyclists and therefore are resentful.

[Blue Order]

If you listen to some on this forum, who we don't need to name because we all know who they are, drivers hatred of cyclists is caused exclusively because some cyclists roll through stop signs, or worse, go through a red light when there is no traffic and because of those morally reprehinsible "violations" all of us god fearing and perfect law abiding cyclists are now hated because of the actions of a few.I would have thought it would have been difficult to pass the LSAT, let alone the Bar Exam, without having a shred of reading comprehension.

Who knew.

[Ngchen]

As illogical as it is (since we have a right to the road), perhaps drivers don't like to be held up, even for a second. And yes, we DO hold up drivers every once in a while, although it's fully justified.

[monk]

I sure wish I had the answer to this one. I've always thought it has a lot to do with how we look. The helmets, lycra, bright colors, etc. I bet if you put on jeans and a t-shirt and jumped on an old beater with a basket you wouldn't be harassed so much. Then, put on all your cycling garb and jump on your $2,500 carbon road bike and you somehow become "fair game" for these jerks.

[San Rensho]

I would have thought it would have been difficult to pass the LSAT, let alone the Bar Exam, without having a shred of reading comprehension.

Who knew.

Took the bait hook line and sinker, didn't you? What makes you think I was writing about you?

Now, what is it that you think I don't comprehend.

[Blue Order]

Point number three is a commentary on cyclists by a motorist who has considered commuting by bike, but doesn't want to do it:


Why she won't bike (scroll down to Point 3) (http://bikeportland.org/2008/05/23/oregonian-green-reporter-too-scared-to-saddle-up/#comment-845853)

Disclaimer for the reading comprehension-impaired: I don't subscribe to a belief that rage against cyclists derives from scofflaw cyclists. I do believe that scofflaw behavior "confirms" that already-held biases are legitimate (it's called confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)), and reinforces the anger against us.

[Blue Order]

Took the bait hook line and sinker, didn't you? What makes you think I was writing about you?

Now, what is it that you think I don't comprehend.I don't think you were writing about me, specifically, although you might have been. I do think that every time we've had this discussion, you have mischaracterized what I've said about scofflaw riding in the same way you've mischaracterized the argument against scofflaws this time.

[San Rensho]

Point number three is a commentary on cyclists by a motorist who has considered commuting by bike, but doesn't want to do it:


Why she won't bike (scroll down to Point 3) (http://bikeportland.org/2008/05/23/oregonian-green-reporter-too-scared-to-saddle-up/#comment-845853)

Disclaimer for the reading comprehension-impaired: I don't subscribe to a belief that rage against cyclists derives from scofflaw cyclists. I do believe that scofflaw behavior "confirms" that already-held biases are legitimate (it's called confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)), and reinforces the anger against us.

Why is it legitimate to hate cyclists because they run stops and reds?

[Chris L]

The way motorists treat cyclists isn't really all that different from the way motorists treat pedestrians or even each other, nor is it really all that different from the atttitudes a lot of "cyclists" on these boards hold about motorists. I also think a lot of it has very little to do with the target of their aggression and more to do with frustrations in their own lives that they can't get resolved. Contrary to popular belief, nobody is the centre of the universe, or the cause of everything that happen there.

[Blue Order]

Why is it legitimate to hate cyclists because they run stops and reds?You still don't get it. Any of it.

[Blue Order]

The way motorists treat cyclists isn't really all that different from the way motorists treat pedestrians or even each other, nor is it really all that different from the atttitudes a lot of "cyclists" on these boards hold about motorists. I also think a lot of it has very little to do with the target of their aggression and more to do with frustrations in their own lives that they can't get resolved. Contrary to popular belief, nobody is the centre of the universe, or the cause of everything that happen there. Some of the most disrespectful treatment of pedestrians I've seen is dished out by cyclists, who undoubtedly feel outraged when their own rights are violated by motorists.

[Bikepacker67]

nor is it really all that different from the atttitudes a lot of "cyclists" on these boards hold about motorists. I also think a lot of it has very little to do with the target of their aggression and more to do with frustrations in their own lives that they can't get resolved.


Ya that's it.

My frustration with the speeders/buzzers/impatient jackholes is really caused by unresolved issues regarding my mother.

:rolleyes:

[San Rensho]

You still don't get it. Any of it.

So tell me what your position on this issue is. Its not a trick question.

[Bikepacker67]

Disclaimer for the reading comprehension-impaired: I don't subscribe to a belief that rage against cyclists derives from scofflaw cyclists. I do believe that scofflaw behavior "confirms" that already-held biases are legitimate (it's called confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)), and reinforces the anger against us.

What a load of crap.

B.O., you know damn well that you could FILL YOUR CITATION BOOK on any day of the week by just pulling over motorists who exceeded the speed limit on surface streets - a scofflaw act that causes 1000X the damages that a cyclist blowing thru a stopsign ever could.

Do your f'n job, for a change... and focus on the true menaces to public safety.

[patc]

So much for this thread.

[Bikepacker67]

So much for this thread.

What's wrong Pat? You don't like heated discussion?

Maybe Foo is more your speed... :D

[darksiderising]

1) The dehumanization that occurs within a car

2) The high cost of owning and operating a motor vehicle

3) The me vs. everyone else attitude

4) Guilt and feeling inferior

5) Lack of legitimate driver's education

6) Stereotypes about the type of people who bicycle

7) The general fast-paced, instant satisfaction lives that "advanced" nations proudly display

[Bikepacker67]

1) The dehumanization that occurs within a car



I somewhat remember a saying so I'll have to paraphrase:

"Put a man on a horse, and he becomes arrogant. Put a man in a car, and he becomes a tyrant"

And in a very real way, that's the problem...
Motor vehicles have become codpieces (given the Vroom Vroom advertising, and the not-so-subtle sexual connotations (http://www.thatsnutz.com/truck-nuts-c-65.html)) and given that "power" is a gas-pedal-push away, it naturally lends itself to the basest of human behavior:

Selfish disregard

[Blue Order]

So tell me what your position on this issue is. Its not a trick question.Motorist "anger" at cyclists (for lack of a more appropriate word) can't be attributed to one simplistic reason. Instead, I think it derives from many sources. One source is that we are "the other"-- i.e., we're not one of them, we're one of "them" (i.e., "they're not one of us, they're one of them"). And the same goes with how we view motorists. It's standard social identity theory. And bias against "the other" is a standard response to groups outside one's own group. We can see it in race, nationality, religion, politics, we see it between fans of rival sports teams, and we see it between motorists and cyclists. Bias in favor of one's own group and against the other group is built around perceived differences between the groups. How many racists, for example, state that they don't like the skin color of the other group? Probably none. What they do say is they don't like the way the other group behaves. They express a preference for their own group's behavioral choices. And in order to support their own group's superior moral claim, they demonize and dehumanize "the other" (see Faces of the Enemy (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0062504673/qid=1003869686/ref=sr_11_0_1/103-9961727-7493468)). One way to demonize "the other" in the context of motorist vs. cyclist is to litanize the sins of the other: "They're scofflaws who don't respect our rights, so they don't deserve respect from us" "They're trying to kill us, so they don't deserve respect from us."

Anther source is the way these social groups compete for resources; it can be expressed, for example, as "their group is taking our jobs." In the context of competition between motorists and cyclists, it's competition over a limited resource (road space) with "the other." and in that competition, we are smaller and weaker, and therefore more easily pushed out of the way. Because we are "the other," competing with their group for space, they attempt to out-compete us. And to justify pushing us out of the resource base, they dehumanize us. They demonize us. They stereotype us. And we do the same to them. When a motorist nearly hits one of us, we haul out the stereotypes: Fat, lazy, cell-phone yakking "cagers." When we blow a stop light, they haul out the stereotypes: Scofflaws, arrogant, rude. The negative stereotypes aren't the reason we hate them or they hate us. But when we live up to the negative stereotypes, we "confirm" (see confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)) that the stereotypes, and thus the underlying bias against us, are legitimately held. The demonization is given legitimacy.

That's not the only reason, incidentally, why motorists are angered by cyclists blowing stops. Their anger is legitimate when a cyclist blows a stop, nearly causes a collision, and then flips the motorist off for good measure. Another reason they're angered is because blowing stops violates a cultural sense of fair play. Blowing stops is akin to cutting in line-- the vehicle operator blowing the stop isn't waiting his/her turn, and instead, is cutting to the head of the line. In some countries, cutting in line is expected, if not accepted. Here, it violates our sense of fair play. Do motorists also break the law? Of course they do. But speeding, for example, doesn't violate a cultural sense of fair play, unless the speed differential between the speeder and the other motorists is excessive. And besides, in the eyes of a social group, the laws their group violates are not as serious of a violation as the laws the other group violates. "When our group violates the law, we do it because it is safe to break the laws we break, and it is foolish to blindly obey the law when it is safe to break the law. When their group breaks the law, it is unsafe, because the laws they break are unsafe to break, and they should be forced to strictly obey the law."

There are other reasons motorists are "angered" by cyclists.

For example, a Welsh study revealed that under the anger, motorists were actually afraid that they would hit a cyclist, and that fear is expressed as anger directed at cyclists.

There's the stress of being late, and having to wait while some slow-a** guy on a bike gets in their busy way.

There's the residual anger from the last cyclist who cut them off before flipping them off.

And probably many more reasons that I have forgotten to include.

[Blue Order]

What a load of crap.

B.O., you know damn well that you could FILL YOUR CITATION BOOK on any day of the week by just pulling over motorists who exceeded the speed limit on surface streets - a scofflaw act that causes 1000X the damages that a cyclist blowing thru a stopsign ever could.

Do your f'n job, for a change... and focus on the true menaces to public safety.If my online name (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Blue-Order-Trance-Tribute-New/dp/B000001D9G) bore any relation to my job, my job would consist of listening to music.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Nah, I'm more in the "one less car" camp. As far as I am concerned motorists should "love us," as each cyclist represents a bit less crowed road, and one more open parking space.

No cyclist is going to bring on that "love" advertising his attitude/intelligence with a moronic slogan like "I Love OPEC," especially in traffic. Though I suspect that T-shirt might go over big in downtown Tehran, Abu Dhabi or Ridayh. Any more questions about ILTB rage over advocacy efforts by BWA (AKA BozoBoys With Attitude)?

What exactly do our "OPEC Lovers" advocate?

[donnamb]

If my online name (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Blue-Order-Trance-Tribute-New/dp/B000001D9G) bore any relation to my job, my job would consist of listening to music.
Seriously, I can vouch for the fact that Blue Order is not an LEO in Real Life.

[Bikepacker67]

Seriously, I can vouch for the fact that Blue Order is not an LEO in Real Life.


That's fine.
But he "plays one" on TV.

[ilmooz]

No cyclist is going to bring on that "love" advertising his attitude/intelligence with a moronic slogan like "I Love OPEC," especially in traffic. Though I suspect that T-shirt might go over big in downtown Tehran, Abu Dhabi or Ridayh. Any more questions about ILTB rage over advocacy efforts by BWA (AKA BozoBoys With Attitude)?

What exactly do our "OPEC Lovers" advocate?

Sorry to have rankled you, but my original comment was strictly satire thought to be far fetched enough to be recognized as such. I don't really give a hoot about OPEC, I certainly wouldn't wear a "I Love OPEC" t-shirt, and I ride exclusively on trails and never in traffic.

[ATAC49er]

The population of the United States has gone up 75% in my lifetime. Space has not increased so much as one square inch.

Education has been eviscerated by special interests, to the point where the "three R's" aren't even taught anymore in public schools -- they diagram sentences, and do 'concept math'. So people are less intelligent as they reach adulthood. Life skills taught us by parents in 'the old days' no longer get passed on, as they are 'so last year'. Victim's excuse is the number one psychological disorder in America today. So there are more people in the same space, less able to cope, with more demands put on them by an 'international economy'.

When people get in a car -- largely soundproofed and air-bagged -- they feel like they're putting on a suit of armor with super-powers (now you understand the appeal of movies about Marvel Comics superheroes). So, their sense of 'personal space' expands to include the car and the space at least ten feet all around them.

Cyclists are more of a threat to their perceptions than pedestrians; when was the last time you saw a fall in a crosswalk? Drivers see cyclists on 'their' road, because 99% of people able to drive, DRIVE and don't ride. They don't know how to handle it, because they never learned! Some CAN"T learn -- they've lost the capacity! When you have people saying -- and believing -- "I'm grown, I don't have to take sh## from anybody!", you have a mental block to learning and growth.

Most people don't have the time behind the wheel that they have at other times -- such as when they actually stop and think about what they've experienced in dealing with a cyclist on the road. They don't have the time to process the thought that the cyclist in front of them may actually know what he/she is about. They remember seeing teenagers on BMX's, or 'the faceless ones' who commute on $50 bikes, riding any- and every-where on the road, cutting traffic, riding wrong-side, etc. So the cyclist is a perceived threat to their smooth progression from A to B. (Lights, dumb drivers, etc., are just part of the territory; cyclists are a remote minority, therefore 'squatters' on 'their roads'.)

We are obstacles to the Forrest Gumps dressed in Iron Man's armor....

[Bikepacker67]

Sorry to have rankled you, but my original comment was strictly satire thought to be far fetched enough to be recognized as such. I don't really give a hoot about OPEC, I certainly wouldn't wear a "I Love OPEC" t-shirt, and I ride exclusively on trails and never in traffic.

You'll hafta forgive ILTB.
He's a literalist, and satire is beyond his purview.

[SSP]

Two Words:

Lycra Envy

[I-Like-To-Bike]

You'll hafta forgive ILTB.
He's a literalist, and satire is beyond his purview.

That's right, when a poster says he does Jackass things, I can believe it. Why should I suspect a poster isn't a Jackass when he posts that he is? BF has lots of "cager culture" bashing idiots passing off their dingy rants/opinions as Serious Bicycling Advocacy.