Mountain Biking - V-brakes vs. Canti-levers

I have read from many different sources, as well as talked with many bike shop owners about why canti-lever brakes are supposed to be superior to linear-pull V-brakes in adverse conditions, i.e. like muddy rims. Cantilevers are "supposed" to provide superior stopping power for Cyclocross racers in these bad conditions. If this is the case, then why don't Canti's come on todays Mountain Bikes instead of the more prevalant linear- pull V-brakes? Mountain Bike riders/racers are just as likely to encouter these adverse braking conditions as Cyclocrossers! Anyone have any ideas?

The reason that 'cross racers use canti's is due to incompatibility between road levers and long pull (or V-style) brakes. Yes, they do make adapters, but all the ones that I have tested have very poor feel and modulation.

Other than 'cross applications I'm not a big cantilever fan. I think in all conditions v-brakes are superior. Cantilever's may provide more mud clearance in sticky gummy situations. But if it's really muddy rim brakes really aren't the best choice anyways. A disc is much superior in muddy conditions.

Canti's were on all bikes a few years back. Now the industry is pushing V Brake style systems. I am sure we will see the return of cantilevers in a few years.

V Brakes are much smoother than many cantilevers thus many riders blessed tis but a nice set of cantilevers were really good as well.

Now the industry is pushing disc brakes. These are very good, but setting them up is many hard for many and many times ends up being costly and timely to many.

Bottom line is personal preference. I hate it when the industry forces fads to the public but sadly that is what many want. Many want to buy then and now and companies are forced to make a decision for you. I wish they let people decide but this would mean people would have to wait to get what they want and people now days do not want to wait.

Buy what you want. XTR Cantilevers were very good and smooth. Here on the local club we have a MTB hall-of-famer. He is old school and all his machines have cantilever and a few even U Brakes!

I think this whole braking thing is exagerated. I pretty recently changed from XT cantilevers to SRAM 9.0 v-brakes. I never had any troubles locking the wheel with my XT Cantis, and then I guess it does the job. The v-brakes does feel a little better, but they doesn't make me stop in fewer feets. The v-brakes are easier to adjust and such though.

I am thinking that the best reasons for V-Brakes are that they provide better modulation (*feel* or stopping power vs. brake lever pressure) and, something you all missed, a weight savings.

Granted, not all V's are lighter than the lightest Canti. But, the run of the mill V is lighter than the same run of the mill Canti.

Pyschocross has been addressed but, I would like to reinforce the previous answer. I don't remember the name of the author, but they were right about the cable pull differences and the adapters not really cutting the mustard in a race situation.

Pyschocrossers argue the merits of brakes with mud clearance mostly because of the tight clearances between tire and frame and/or fork. The preferred canti brake is modeled after an old school design that places the arms almost perpendicular to the fork/frame tubes. That way there is less of a chance of mud build up on the arms that can impede travel of pad to rim.

By the way, I saw a guy with disks on his cross bike(cable).
He was also a singlespeeder and didn't change bikes or stop for cleaning at all. This was a local race in Feb. (snow and mud). Although he couldn't keep up in the sprints, he made up for it in time savings and possibly a lighter bike to propel up the hills. He landed in second by less than two seconds (pro-team rider out sprinted him).

Makes ya think about psycho-strategies, huh?

Smile more,
:)Arjai

b-u-m-p

Did you have anything to add to this five-and-half year old thread?

I've heard all the arguments about how wonderful cantilevers are and how they can be just as strong as V-brakes, but in my personal experience that isn't true. V-brakes tend to be stronger and are easier to adjust than cantilevers. When I swapped out the stock cantilevers on my Surly Cross Check for V-brakes, the stopping power was noticeably increased. Cable routing is cleaner and the arms don't stick out as far. Cantilever brakes are not going to come back. If anything, V-brakes are going away. Just check out the 2006 mountain bikes - more and more of the cheaper bikes now sport discs. I considered disc brakes a fad myself, but my latest bike sports Avid BB7 discs and I am now convinced of their superiority for most mountain bikes (and for cyclocross). One of the reasons few cyclocross bikes have disc brakes is because they aren't legal in some races. Once that changes, I think cyclocross bikes and touring bikes will finally let cantilever brakes die and make the switch to disc brakes.

this thread is 5.5 years old

b-u-m-p
Dude, come on! :lol::D


Granted, not all V's are lighter than the lightest Canti. But, the run of the mill V is lighter than the same run of the mill Canti.

Are you sure about that? I really don't know, that's why I'm asking. But I have just plain old early '90s Shimano cantilevers on my bike and they really don't weigh much at all. I've never worked with V-brakes so I don't know how heavy they are, and I can see them maybe being pretty close. Just hard to imagine them being lighter.

Now this thread is almost 9 years old. So there!!!

Now this thread is almost 9 years old. So there!!!

Really? I mean, really?

Come on....

Canti's were on all bikes a few years back. Now the industry is pushing V Brake style systems. I am sure we will see the return of cantilevers in a few years.

:roflmao2:

jjbod1...burn in heck!

Kudos on using the search feature...

9.5 years.

9.5 years.

It's like a time warp, maaaaaannnn.

wow....

now days its either V's vs Disk,
or Mech. vs Hydro lol..........

Wow... this is the oldest thread that I have ever seen.

Hokay, I have a bike with canti's, I have a bike with V's, and I have a bike with mech disk. I use them all at various times depending on what's going on. Must say I like the canti's. They are lighter than the other two (as is the bike). As long as they stop the bike I'm good.

Had to post...I'll check to see if I'm still here ten years from now.

Hokay, I have a bike with canti's, I have a bike with V's, and I have a bike with mech disk. I use them all at various times depending on what's going on. Must say I like the canti's. They are lighter than the other two (as is the bike). As long as they stop the bike I'm good.

Had to post...I'll check to see if I'm still here ten years from now.

+ 1 :thumb:

Question: Should I Get Disc Brakes or Rim Brakes? - What System Will Weigh More
This is a common question but the answer is not always what you want to hear.
Answer: There are two quick and dirty answers to the disc brake or rim brake question:
One, If you want better, more consistent brake performance in all conditions and don't really care if it weighs a little more or costs a little more, choose disc brakes over rim brakes.
Two, if you want the lightest set-up you can have, and are willing to accept small variances in brake performance, or if a low price is really important, choose rim brakes over disc brakes.
In a little more detail. Mountain bike rim brakes have gone through several design changes over the years. They started with the original cantilever brakes, went through the dark U-Brake years, and are now known as V-Brakes. V-Brakes work well in most conditions.
Rim brakes have some drawbacks. They require straight un-damaged rims to perform their best. Rim brakes perform poorly in wet or muddy conditions. Over time, Rim brakes can wear right through the side of your rim literally causing the side of the rim to blow off (I've seen this happen and its not pretty.).
Disc brakes have been around for a long time in cars but weren't seriously used on bikes until the mid to late 90's. There were definitely some issues with some of the earlier models but the disc brakes of today, cable actuated or hydraulic, perform quite well.
The performance of disc brakes is considerably better than rim brakes. Especially in wet or muddy conditions. Disc brakes usually require less force to apply and aren't effected by rim/wheel condition.
The biggest downside to disc brakes is the added weight. By the time you add everything in, including front and rear brakes and the added weight of the disc specific hubs, you end up with around 150 to 350 grams additional weight to the whole bike. This weight number greatly depends on the wheels, rims, hubs, and disc brake system you choose.
Cost is certainly an issue as well. Disk brake systems are usually more expensive compared to rim brakes. Mechanical or cable actuated disc brakes are a closer match but will still cost a little more. Hydraulic disc brake systems can cost significantly more.
To switch from one system to the other you will in most cases not only have to buy the new set of brakes but you will have to buy a new wheelset as well. Disc rims usually cannot be used with rim brakes and the standard hubs that are used with rim brake wheels usually cannot be used with discs.
The trend in the industry is certainly towards discs and the technoloy is improving every year. Personally, I will never go back to rim brakes on my own bike. For me, the consistent performance and non-rim-dependent nature of discs is well worth the added weight.

Good post, machine3006, but the thread topic doesn't concern discs. :)

Yeah, 9-year old thread!

It needs to be mentioned that disc brakes also require a different fork construction and rear triangle and it is heavier
I find the non-disc frames superior. As a rider of 1985 era touring frames with cantilevers, I will be switching one to v-brakes now that a road brake lever is available for V-brake pull.

Note when a tread lasts around 10 years that road levers for v-brakes have finally appeared ..No need for travel agents.:)

Are disc-specific rims any lighter than their rim brake counterparts?

It needs to be mentioned that disc brakes also require a different fork construction and rear triangle and it is heavier
I find the non-disc frames superior. As a rider of 1985 era touring frames with cantilevers, I will be switching one to v-brakes now that a road brake lever is available for V-brake pull.

Note when a tread lasts around 10 years that road levers for v-brakes have finally appeared ..No need for travel agents.:)

Yes but there are no in-line levers or cross-top levers that work with v-brakes. That's what I'd really like.

Yes but there are no in-line levers or cross-top levers that work with v-brakes. That's what I'd really like.

Tektro RL741

http://www.paulcomp.com/crosslever.html

I just replaced my v-brakes ('94 Deore) with AVID Single Digit 7 linears. I can stop on the dime as they say.

Other than 'cross applications I'm not a big cantilever fan. I think in all conditions v-brakes are superior. Cantilever's may provide more mud clearance in sticky gummy situations. But if it's really muddy rim brakes really aren't the best choice anyways. A disc is much superior in muddy conditions.

Disc brakes are superior in every condition besides dry pavement.

Cantilever and disc work by exactly the same principle. The functional difference there is more "internal leverage" on a V-Brake. The maintenance difference is that V-Brakes are just WAAAAAY easier to setup and adjust. The specification difference is that levers in stock drop bar levers are just more powerful than V-Brake style MTB levers.

There are some v brakes out there that have leverage appropriate for standard drop bar levers. They're called mini-vs and they have shorter arms. The penalty for these is it's hard to fit fenders underneath them. Cantis are better in conjunction with fenders as the arms flare out laterally.

Finally, are also MTB and drop bar levers that have have the leverage characteristic of the other. So you can use a drop bar lever with an MTB V-brake. You just need the right lever (no brifters, just levers). Either that, or you can use a Travel Adjuster which adjusts leverage/cable pull will a pully.

Why do cyclocross bikes ship stock with Cantilever brakes? I would suspect this is because cantilevers are compatible with brifters and larger tires ... period. This is what a cyclocross buyer would expect even if the bike shipped with bar end shifters.

One of the reasons few cyclocross bikes have disc brakes is because they aren't legal in some races. Once that changes, I think cyclocross bikes and touring bikes will finally let cantilever brakes die and make the switch to disc brakes.

I think about the carnage that would happen in a bike race during pack crash with disc brakes and I shudder. Those things are sharp. Until there are some regulations about rounding the edges of disc rotors properly, I don't think UCI will legalize them.

I think tourers like to be as simple as possible. With cantilever brakes, you can find replacement pads at any Wal-Mart. But then again ... disc brake pads last a LONG TIME and they're small enough to pack so ... It took me 2 years to wear out a stock pair of Avid BB7 brake pads. I know they have definitely made a dent in tandems where there vastly superior heat dissapation makes them clearly superior.

10

I'll be adjusting the cantis on my Cross build shortly.
Way harder than V-brakes.
So where are the original posters?

most likely dead. holy **** this is an old thread

"Yes, but ours go to 11..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY

Okay, this thread is (maybe not quite as) relevant as ever. But I just picked up a Surly Cross Check -- a frame around when this thread started and still around today -- and came here for an answer to a variation on our now age-old question: If I switch from drop bars to flat bars, keeping stock brakes, what levers do I use?

My next question would be: Why do the stock Tektro Oryx brakes provide so little stopping power? I bought the bike -- a 2010 -- just slightly used. But the breaks seriously have little to no power. Would an adjustment and new brake shoes give me something worth bothering with? Since I rarely if ever ride in mud here in the semi-desert part of Colorado, my inclination is to give up on cantilevers entirely and go with TRP CX9 short-arm linear-pull cyclocross brakes. A little less clearance, a lot more stopping power, I hear. If I did that, what flat-bar levers would I use?

Those are general questions. Does anyone have specific, state-of-the-art but not-freakishly-expensive, recommendations for specific flat-bar brake-lever models to go with the Oryx cantis or the CX9 linear-pulls?

Thanks for the opportunity to participate in the World's Oldest Thread.

V-brakes are easier to adjust and much easier to replace. :)

V-brakes are easier to adjust and much easier to replace. :)

So mechanical aptitude is now the bar to judge performance?

I'll be overjoyed when I pick up my new cross bike with canti's.
www.rodbikes.com/articles/brakes.html

So mechanical aptitude is now the bar to judge performance?

I do everything to my bikes and still suck at adjusting cantilevers. In 2007 I bought a cross check frame set and built it up for touring and commuting, went with V-brakes (full size brakes and v-brake specific road levers). After seeing the light, I replaced the cantilevers on my old mountain bike with v-brakes and the stopping power was night to day.

Cantilevers just really hard to get just right. Even when they're just right they still won't stop as well. V-brakes are so simple and straightforward in comparison. There's no straddle cable which is impossible to replace and strips easier, no little shoe that you need both a socket and another wrench to tighten properly, you just need one 5mm allen key to do everything.

This is why I first searched for info on why brand new cross bikes still use canti brakes. Everyone seems to have wildly different out comes and opinions on the matter though. I have a mountain bike with V-brakes, I'll buy a cross bike soon with cantis and decide on my own.

Daily rider is from the early 70's with old school dura-ace U-brakes, I use the suicide levers most of the time. I have managed to keep them tuned up well for over 5,000miles. Hopefully cantis on a 20xx cross bike with do me better. ;-)

I have a number of vintage MTBs and regularly ride a 88 Nishiki Ariel with Canti's on Rails to Trails gravel trails. Still, I wish I could convert it to V-brakes (rear brake a U brake, not the standard post positions). IMHO, V's stop much better than canti's and I'm including the set of XT canti's I have. I just changed our old 05' Rockhopper to disc from XT V's with Koolstops. There was no significant improvement in locking up the wheels, but the discs modulate MUCH better, so I don't regret the change. There were some after market canti's that were very good that I never had a chance to evaluate, but the original equipment stuff I've never found as sure at stopping compared to V's.

This is why I first searched for info on why brand new cross bikes still use canti brakes. Everyone seems to have wildly different out comes and opinions on the matter though. I have a mountain bike with V-brakes, I'll buy a cross bike soon with cantis and decide on my own.


Most brand new cross bikes come with brifters so the cable pull won't work out for V-brakes. You need to pull more cable with a V brake than with canti's. On MTB brake levers there's a little cam in the lever that helps with it but the road companies don't produce V-brake specific shift/brake levers.

12 !!!!!!!! lol.

I think this whole braking thing is exagerated.


+1!

Awesome. I just responded to a 12-year-old post.

As long as some of us are restoring older bikes, this thread is useful. I just got myself a Trek 950 and some of the things I'm considering changing are the cantilever brakes for vbrakes. On a side note, I'm also planning to build a set of lightweight rims and discovered that it is more difficult to get non-disc hubs and rims. Everyone seems to be jumping on the disc brakes bandwagon.

Good to see older, relevant threads threads still alive.
"Use the search function" seems to be the mantra for some on most interweb forums, and this is a perfect case.
As far as the original question, here is my two pfennigs worth. It seems that cantis are popular with the CX crowd due to the shape of the brake arms keeping mud from getting quite so packed up in the brake area. I haven't had any practical experience in CX, but it seems to be the consensus, so there must be some credibility to it.
As for me, I hate canti brakes. I can't adjust them for the life of me, and they just didn't seem to stop as well as v-brakes. to me, v-brakes just work better, but then again, I don't ride in really muddy conditions.

svgeek,

Velocity produces a huge selection of various rims. Velocity even makes 27" but to get the huge selection its 700c. I went for big and durable on my 1985 Trek 720 fully loaded touring bike going for more substantial than original with Velocity Dyad 700c and 40 holes, which gave more clearance allowing 37mm tires. There are plenty of good non-disc hubs. My Trek is 126mm OLD .... you will find a cold set to 130mm or 135mm may need to be done on older bikes to accommodate new hub spacing.

I also have a Jamis Supernova cyclocross bike .... it had massive brake chatter caused by a carbon fork and cantilever brake under hard braking on the street. Solution was to replace front brake with a V-brake. This bike has SRAM B/rifters (20speed) .. I installed travel agents to pull more cable thru Shimano V-brake and it works just fine ... brake chatter gone and excellent braking.

I also have a Raleigh Alyeska Touring bike from mid 1980s (made in Japan maybe by Miyata) ... it has an incredibly nice ride. The frame is wonderful. With a disc brake comes a stiffer fork and a heavier bike. My Raleigh came with cantis but the hole configuration for the canti spring on the stud was a reverse from normal .... the brakes were inferior and I could not install most other brakes because of the reverse hole configuration. I eventually found that I could install Paul Motolite V-brakes as they do not use the stud holes to determine spring placement. I now have brake levers that pull more cable on this bike. Motolites are great brakes (but spendy) .... NO DISCS needed for me.

I've got a 1995 Trek hybrid with cantis and a 2007 Trek hybrid with V-brakes. The "feel" and "power" of braking on these two bikes is literally a night-and-day difference! I plan to replace the cantis on the older bike with V-brakes ASAP.

Is it a given that a bike that has cantis will work with V-brakes? Are they completely interchangeable (I realize brake levers will need to be changed as well)?

How much better* will this thread be in two years when road disc brakes have made cantis irrelevant for cx and touring?

*Semantically better of course. It won't help this thread stop any faster.