Road Bike Racing - I'm torn between..

A race is coming up this Sunday. Major hills. over 5k feet of climbing for 26 miles the last 13 miles has about 3.5k feet of climbing. I am torn between using my Powertap which is a little heavier wheels set than my race X lite wheel set, by about 350grams.

Although I'd love to see my perceived effort on the Powertap I would also love the lightness of the Race wheel set instead.

Experienced riders what would you choose? The Powetap or a lighter wheelset?

is this a bit?

are you racing, or riding?

are you racing, or riding?

I am racing.

I am torn between using my Powertap which is a little heavier wheels set than my race X lite wheel set, by about 350grams.



Is 350 grams the wheelSET difference as implied? Use the x-lite front and PT back.

are you racing, or riding?

Doesn't matter.

The P-tap adds less than 0.5% - less than half a percent - to the weight combo of a cyclist. Appropriately pacing yourself is much more critical than saving that 1 part out of 200 in mass.



Plus you get to make cool graphs.

Doesn't matter.

The P-tap adds less than 0.5% - less than half a percent - to the weight combo of a cyclist. Appropriately pacing yourself is much more critical than saving that 1 part out of 200 in mass.



Plus you get to make cool graphs.

did i say it did?

btw - unless the OP plans on doing a solo breakaway (who knows, maybe s/he is), then IMO the pacing argument is somewhat moot.

Yeah, I'd race with the PowerTap.

did i say it did?


If it didn't matter why would you ask?

Also he said


A race is coming up this Sunday.

If it didn't matter why would you ask?

Also he said

this is your first season racing, right?

Second season racing but my first with a Powertap

did i say it did?

btw - unless the OP plans on doing a solo breakaway (who knows, maybe s/he is), then IMO the pacing argument is somewhat moot.

But the cool graphs are NEVER moot. And not everyone has mad-skillz in MS Paint.

But the cool graphs are NEVER moot. And not everyone has mad-skillz in MS Paint.

MS-paint? http://forums.roadbikereview.com/images/smilies/hand.gif Non.

Always fun to play with this (http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesLessWeight_Page.html).

Also fwiw, my choice would be the lighter wheelset.

go to the grocery store meat section, pick up a 1.5 pound package of ground beef with one hand, then pick up a 0.75 pound package of ground beef with your other hand, not much of a difference, eh? that's roughly the difference in weight you're talking about when comparing your wheelset choices, not much.

Use your PT wheel. You're a new racer, you'll benefit by learning what you do well vs. what you dont, and when. The post race "diary" that your PT will give you will be more valuable than the 0.75 lbs. you'd save by using the other wheelset.

Well lets just say a 700c wheel with tube and tire takes approx. 7ft to fully rotate one time in a straight line.

If my calculations are correct it takes 19611 approximate full wheel rotations to complete a 26 mile race.

with 350 grams of extra rotational weight at each revolution thats 15,000 lbs of extra rotational weight my legs will be enduring the whole race. Would you still use a Powertap?

Well lets just say a 700c wheel with tube and tire takes approx. 7ft to fully rotate one time in a straight line.

If my calculations are correct it takes 19611 approximate full wheel rotations to complete a 26 mile race.

with 350 grams of extra rotational weight at each revolution thats 15,000 lbs of extra rotational weight my legs will be enduring the whole race. Would you still use a Powertap?


wow, that's some impressive over thinking there.

Well lets just say a 700c wheel with tube and tire takes approx. 7ft to fully rotate one time in a straight line.

If my calculations are correct it takes 19611 approximate full wheel rotations to complete a 26 mile race.

with 350 grams of extra rotational weight at each revolution thats 15,000 lbs of extra rotational weight my legs will be enduring the whole race. Would you still use a Powertap?




Learn to coast

putting that much analysis into a 26 mi. race confirms that you're a very new racer, which strengthens my opinion that you should use the PT.

that many calculations confirms that your nerdy enough to love the post race analysis that the PT gives you that you wouldnt have with out it.

use the PT.

wow, that's some impressive over thinking there.

I do what I can to get a competing edge.

Learn to coast

You really can't coast in this race.

I do what I can to get a competing edge.

think that much during the race, and you won't have an edge, competitive or otherwise.

think that much during the race, and you won't have an edge, competitive or otherwise.

Yeah, I think you are right on that one. Just a little perspective on the course here is a map of it. http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=1910195 It's actually not as easy at it may sound or look.

Starts of with moderate to hard rollers progressively turning into an all out climb approximately 5-6% grade all the way up to the finish. This will be one hard race for me as I am barely at a 3.7w/kg for 20 mins now.

The powertap would have 2 uses. 1 to look at post race and analyze.... 2 to pace yourself up the climbs. 2 really depends on in if you are truly racing or just trying to finish a race. If you are really racing then you will most likely be following the pace of the leaders on the climbs and your PT will only show you what you had to do to keep up. Outside of time trials, I have used my PT during a race only one time this year and that was going off the front and knowing how much power I could hold. That being said, I always race with the PT even though it is a little heavier because at some point I might need it and I am a graph dork.

MS-paint? http://forums.roadbikereview.com/images/smilies/hand.gif Non.

Etch-a-sketch?

You'll be running 10-12 MPH up the last 13 miles. There is no aerodynamic benefit to speak of. Some people will probably hit the first five minutes way too hard. Don't be one of them.

Well lets just say a 700c wheel with tube and tire takes approx. 7ft to fully rotate one time in a straight line.

If my calculations are correct it takes 19611 approximate full wheel rotations to complete a 26 mile race.

with 350 grams of extra rotational weight at each revolution thats 15,000 lbs of extra rotational weight my legs will be enduring the whole race. Would you still use a Powertap?

:roflmao: rotational weight from wheels, between the lightest wheels available and standard training-duty wheels, in a climb costs you on the order of 0.01% (one-hundredth of a pct). The raw, static weight is much more impactful, and it's still not enough of a difference make up for the value of the power data.

Rotational weight's impact on cycling is a huge (annoying) myth.

:roflmao: rotational weight from wheels, between the lightest wheels available and standard training-duty wheels, in a climb costs you on the order of 0.01% (one-hundredth of a pct). The raw, static weight is much more impactful, and it's still not enough of a difference make up for the value of the power data.

Rotational weight's impact on cycling is a huge (annoying) myth.

Don't forget this is hub weight, not rim weight, too. I could do the calculations, but let's just say it matters much, much, much less.

:roflmao: rotational weight from wheels, between the lightest wheels available and standard training-duty wheels, in a climb costs you on the order of 0.01% (one-hundredth of a pct). The raw, static weight is much more impactful, and it's still not enough of a difference make up for the value of the power data.

Rotational weight's impact on cycling is a huge (annoying) myth.

The over emphasis of power data is equally as annoying.

Don't forget this is hub weight, not rim weight, too. I could do the calculations, but let's just say it matters much, much, much less.

Yeah, I figured we'd take this in baby steps :)


The over emphasis of power data is equally as annoying.

At least the data are honest. Marketing, on the other hand...

You'll be running 10-12 MPH up the last 13 miles. There is no aerodynamic benefit to speak of. Some people will probably hit the first five minutes way too hard. Don't be one of them.

impressive. My last run I did Sunday up the last 13 miles was 10.07 MPH. How'd you figure that one out?

Just don't drink any beer this week. Then take the PT.

Here's some math for you:

0.00006%.

That's what the tire width you lost by is in percentage of the race's distance because you were carrying a little bit more weight to so you could look at a shiny graph and figure out where you went wrong. Climbing races are knife fights where getting as light as possible is honing your weapon to a razors edge.

Or would you start uphill with nearly a pound of rocks in your pocket?

And pacing yourself with a power meter in a climbing race (not a TT), especially with limited data, is a bad idea.

This comes from a power meter guy. And a decent climber.

Well lets just say a 700c wheel with tube and tire takes approx. 7ft to fully rotate one time in a straight line.

If my calculations are correct it takes 19611 approximate full wheel rotations to complete a 26 mile race.

with 350 grams of extra rotational weight at each revolution thats 15,000 lbs of extra rotational weight my legs will be enduring the whole race. Would you still use a Powertap?

If you're using the same tires (I didn't notice if both are clinchers or tubulars), your 15k lbs of extra work calculation is not accurate. You're not lifting the wheel 7 feet into the air, you're simply rotating it - once it gets rolling it stays rolling. It's called inertia. If you were putting the bike on a roof rack 19k times, then that's a different story, I'd use the lightest wheels and tires I had. Heck, I'd take the tires off. And cassette. Pedals. yada yada yada.

If your light wheelset weighs 350 grams less, and a PT hub weighs about 250 grams more than a "standard lightweight rear hub" (i.e. one that weighs about 200 grams), your light wheelset probably has about the same weight rims as your PT wheel. With similar weight rims and the same tires, you have about the same rotational weight.

Rotating weight only counts during acceleration. After you reach cruising speed it's a moot point. If you're going 10-12 mph up a climb then there's basically no use in having less rotating weight.

From your somewhat persistent responses to some race/bike savy posters, it seems that your bent on racing the Bontragers, so do it. Ultimately you're going to do what you want to do because no one is holding a gun to your head and telling you "ride this".

However, if you use the PT, you'll have an excuse ("I did what the guys on BF said and the extra 350 grams just killed me"). If you use the Bontragers, you won't ("I rode my lightest wheels and still only got x place"). Well, not unless I start spewing all the stuff I don't like about Bontrager wheels, but that's off topic :)

btw if you use the PT, please post the chart afterwards. I can't imagine riding 26 miles without ever coasting. I coasted even while in the middle of the Palomar Mountain climb which apparently averages 7% or so for 7 miles and has a long climb leading up to the actual "climb".

Actually that's just another reason to use the Bontragers, so you don't have to prove that "you really can't coast in that race".

cdr

*normally I don't post sarcastic posts but sophistic arguments sometimes does that to me.

If you're using the same tires (I didn't notice if both are clinchers or tubulars), your 15k lbs of extra work calculation is not accurate. You're not lifting the wheel 7 feet into the air, you're simply rotating it - once it gets rolling it stays rolling. It's called inertia. If you were putting the bike on a roof rack 19k times, then that's a different story, I'd use the lightest wheels and tires I had. Heck, I'd take the tires off. And cassette. Pedals. yada yada yada.

If your light wheelset weighs 350 grams less, and a PT hub weighs about 250 grams more than a "standard lightweight rear hub" (i.e. one that weighs about 200 grams), your light wheelset probably has about the same weight rims as your PT wheel. With similar weight rims and the same tires, you have about the same rotational weight.

Rotating weight only counts during acceleration. After you reach cruising speed it's a moot point. If you're going 10-12 mph up a climb then there's basically no use in having less rotating weight.

From your somewhat persistent responses to some race/bike savy posters, it seems that your bent on racing the Bontragers, so do it. Ultimately you're going to do what you want to do because no one is holding a gun to your head and telling you "ride this".

However, if you use the PT, you'll have an excuse ("I did what the guys on BF said and the extra 350 grams just killed me"). If you use the Bontragers, you won't ("I rode my lightest wheels and still only got x place"). Well, not unless I start spewing all the stuff I don't like about Bontrager wheels, but that's off topic :)

btw if you use the PT, please post the chart afterwards. I can't imagine riding 26 miles without ever coasting. I coasted even while in the middle of the Palomar Mountain climb which apparently averages 7% or so for 7 miles and has a long climb leading up to the actual "climb".

Actually that's just another reason to use the Bontragers, so you don't have to prove that "you really can't coast in that race".

cdr

*normally I don't post sarcastic posts but sophistic arguments sometimes does that to me.

Whats with the hostility here? Someone pee in your coffe? LOL. It wasn't an arguement. I'm just discussing BTW. Ever heard of it? And I did mention that it was rotational weight not that I was lifting it. Sorry for the sarcasim. :rolleyes:

dood, stop analyzing, put your calculator away, get your bike together and go race. you've got lots of info here with convincing arguments on both sides of the wheel choice decision (see Racer Ex post for valid counterpoint to all the P-tap recommendations).

impressive. My last run I did Sunday up the last 13 miles was 10.07 MPH. How'd you figure that one out?

I made a spreadsheet a while back predicting performance from power output. I just assumed a reasonable power output for racing.

Is it acceptable to "-1" a post? My thoughts are, its a race. Unless you're on a solo break and you're so far away from the pack that you can't tell if they're gaining, using a power meter to pace is almost useless. If you're in contact with the pack and wish to stay there you have to go at their speed. Uphill downhill, flat or in a crit, you move with the pack or you get dropped. During last night's Tuesday Worlds, I went on a solo bridge in the last 10 minutes that was completely suicidal. My wattage was way over my normal 6m and I was suffering. They still caught us. If I had paced myself I would have never even managed to bridge up let alone stay away.

That being said, if you plan to be alone (or with very few people) at the base of the final climb, then the PT might be worth it during the race. So the real question in my mind is, is the data gained during a race valuable? The answer to me is an easy yes. I always race with the PT unless its a technical crit where I know there will be a lot of accelerating.

I've seen lots of people put tape over their PT wattage during the race. I am usually capable of not looking at it so I don't bother. But otherwise, I think its an excellent idea.


Who knew I was so opinionated???