Utility Cycling - Drivetrains for Big Dummy

Chainline is the distance between longitudinal center line of hub (centerline between dropouts) and sprocket line (where chain runs). What you are saying means, your hub has got much wider chain line compared to Alfine hub (chainline of 42mm, I believe). In fact, you will need a different tensioner then. Some singlespeed tensioner mostly, since those can cover a wider range of chain line. Note that not all of them run perfectly silent, and they may be designed for wide single speed chains. I have got a cheap single speed chain tensioner in use with an alfine hub and it tends to make noises every now and then. Probably does not perfectly align vertically or whatever, no clue.
Regards, Phil

penexpers: Pretty much any shop in Seattle should be able to order it and get it the next day. I know this because I work for Seattle Bike Supply, and we have them in stock right now. What your freind needs is the closest shpo that has a good idea of customer service. Let me know where in Seattle they are; perhaps I can provide some direction. Also, what sort of chain tensioner do you have? Many types are not compatible with the NuVinci shift box. I have made several to work with this setup, and I think that the Paul's Melvin and the Rohloff tensioner should have a low enough profile to sit under the shift box.file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/vkleitz/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures/FB%20Pic%207.jpg

The Kore tensioner should work regardless, as it is chainstay-mounted.

http://www.ebikestop.com/prodimages/21023_medium.jpg

Chainline is the distance between longitudinal center line of hub (centerline between dropouts) and sprocket line (where chain runs). What you are saying means, your hub has got much wider chain line compared to Alfine hub (chainline of 42mm, I believe). In fact, you will need a different tensioner then. Some singlespeed tensioner mostly, since those can cover a wider range of chain line. Note that not all of them run perfectly silent, and they may be designed for wide single speed chains. I have got a cheap single speed chain tensioner in use with an alfine hub and it tends to make noises every now and then. Probably does not perfectly align vertically or whatever, no clue.
Regards, Phil

Looks like the chain line is 51mm. I see that Fallbrook are now making a chain tensioner for the hub so I might go for that.

Just to throw out yet another option: the Yess Derailleur style chain tensioner ( http://shop.yesspro.com/products/etr-d ) mounts directly to the derailleur hanger, and is very low profile. The main drawback would be that it will need to be removed in order to dismount the wheel (contrary to their ad copy - they're thinking of wheels with QR axles, not the NuVinci).

I use a Rohloff tensioner with my NuVinci/Xtracycle set up. I don't have to remove it.
On my commuter I have a Rohloff hub with an On-One Doofer chain tensioner.
http://fixie-king.dk/oscommerce2/catalog/images/singulator.jpg
Being only a single wheel tensioner it is also low profile.
http://homepage.mac.com/awcg/.Pictures/Bike/CP1.jpg
Here it the chainline with the Doofer.

What is shown as On-One Doofer tensioner here looks exactly like the cheap tensioner I am using for one of our Alfine bicycles. I strongly assume they are identical, since I know they are being sold with several labels. This (http://www.bike-mailorder.de/shop/Singlespeed/Kettenspanner/Castor-Kettenspanner-SingleSpeed-1::7216.html) may be one of those many clones, for instance.

For the Alfines narrow chain line I need to adjust it to the inner side maximally, what may be a reason for sometimes not working perfectly (making noises). For the NuVinci it may very well work better, cannot tell. It is lightweighted compared to the heavy Alfine tensioner but reduces chain section length involved at driving rear sprocket, at least when chain gets lengthy after a while. For wheel removal I do not need to dismount this tensioner.

I finally got the VDO kit, but now I have discovered the alfine tensioner will not work. The jockey wheels won't line up with the freewheel on the hub. Looking at getting the Paul Melvin now but I have heard the DMR one will work too.

I've been looking into this as well. Are you planning on running a front derailleur? From what I've been reading, it seems like the DMR might not work. I'm not sure if any of the single wheel tensioners will take up enough slack to allow a front derailleur. That may include the Fallbrook model, as that appears to be a single wheel as well. The Melvin supposedly does pull enough chain to run a front derailleur, and so far that's only one I've found that seems like it might, provided that it can be adjusted for the right chain line.

But then if you're not running a front derailleur, probably any type of chainring that can be adjusted for the Nuvinci's chainline should do the trick.

Rohloff makes a double wheel tensioner.
http://homepage.mac.com/awcg/.Pictures/Bike/Rohloff-chain-tensioner.jpg
The gear range of the NuVinci is quite wide.
Short gears are nice, but you don't need much on the tall side with a utility bike.
IMO a front derailer would be unnecessary complication. You won't need it.

I've been looking into this as well. Are you planning on running a front derailleur? From what I've been reading, it seems like the DMR might not work. I'm not sure if any of the single wheel tensioners will take up enough slack to allow a front derailleur. That may include the Fallbrook model, as that appears to be a single wheel as well. The Melvin supposedly does pull enough chain to run a front derailleur, and so far that's only one I've found that seems like it might, provided that it can be adjusted for the right chain line.

But then if you're not running a front derailleur, probably any type of chainring that can be adjusted for the Nuvinci's chainline should do the trick.

I'm with Allen G here in that I think adding a front derailleur would be an unnecessary complication.

I have ordered this from SJS cycles

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sessionID/OYC/product-POWERPLAY-Powerplay-CHT100-Single-Speed-Chain-Tensioner-13370.htm

It looks like it should work. In the event it doesn't I will order the Rohloff.

Rohloff makes a double wheel tensioner.

The gear range of the NuVinci is quite wide.
Short gears are nice, but you don't need much on the tall side with a utility bike.
IMO a front derailer would be unnecessary complication. You won't need it.

I looked at the Rohloff tensioner, and it looked to me like it might be too far out from the hub for Nuvinci's chainline, just like the Alfine was too far in.

You're probably right about the gear range being fine for most utility applications. For my part, I'll be using my bike for more than just hauling. It's primary use will be a commuter. I use the whole range of gears on my current commuter, so I'm hoping to at least maintain, or possibly expand, my current gear range. But since penexpers is setting this up on a Big Dummy, the Nuvinci range may be just fine.

But it seems like the only thing that makes installing a front derailleur at all complicated is finding a chain tensioner that provides the right chainline and sufficient chain pull and wrap. Although I have to admit that seems like more trouble than I thought it'd be.

Actually, if you really wanted a bigger range of gears with the complications of a front derailleur, you could look at the range from Schlumpf

http://www.schlumpf.ch/antriebe_engl.htm

I love the idea of Schlumpf. The price, not so much. It is definitely on the list of things I'd like to try out at some point, but for now I'm stretching the budget just to get the Nuvinci. So I'm either going to start out with a front derailleur or just one chainring up front. If the Melvin Tensioner works for me, then I see no reason not to add a front derailleur. If not, it's back to the drawing board.

http://awcg.com/Allen/RandomImages/NuVinciMPH.png
This is your MPH at 90 RPMs with a 42/21 setup on the Nuvinci. {source: Sheldon Brown's IGH calculator** (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/internal.html)
Personally, I don't care for the way my longtail behaves much over 22mph--front end shimmy.
Be carful of how much you expect from a longtail, it's a specialized bike and not necessarily the best for an all purpose bike (you ain't going to be able to race it, hills are going to be tougher than on a road bike, they are not well suited for trails). What a longtail can do best is carry loads. They are quite adequate commuters--same ball park as a Breezer, but if you want a nimble traffic dancer, not so much.

You can always add a front derailer later. Don't let having a derailer be the end all be all.
If it is that important, I would suggest to not use an IGH at all and using a derailer system.

One thing to note, on a long tail a chain tensioner is (IME) required with any IGH due to the length of the chain. I encountered enough chain bounce that the chain would occasionally hop over the teeth on the cog. A tensioner fixed that problem.

http://awcg.com/Allen/RandomImages/NuVinciMPH.png
This is your MPH at 90 RPMs with a 42/21 setup on the Nuvinci. {source: Sheldon Brown's IGH calculator** (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/internal.html)
Personally, I don't care for the way my longtail behaves much over 22mph--front end shimmy.
Be carful of how much you expect from a longtail, it's a specialized bike and not necessarily the best for an all purpose bike (you ain't going to be able to race it, hills are going to be tougher than on a road bike, they are not well suited for trails). What a longtail can do best is carry loads. They are quite adequate commuters--same ball park as a Breezer, but if you want a nimble traffic dancer, not so much.


Somewhere I saw a video of someone using a Big Dummy for Cyclocross; he seemed to be keeping up with the rest of the field fairly well.

I ended up in this thread because I was looking for a solution to the Nuvinci tensioner and front derailleur issue, and it seems like at least some of it was being covered here, but I won't be using this set up on a long tail. I'm setting it up, hopefully, on a Long Haul Trucker. I'm basing my desire for a wider range on the fact that a Nuvinci alone has a slightly narrower range than my current 3 X 8 set up, and I occassionally find myself wishing for a little more in the top end. It sounds like penexpers (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=76597) is not going for a front derailleur, either, so I think we're covered. I am curious enough about the Nuvinci that I will probably try it without a front derailleur if I can't make it work with one, but as near as I can tell, since I need a chain tensioner anyway, if I find the right one, setting up a front derailleur with a Nuvinci will be no more difficult than setting up a derailleur with a gear cluster. The only added complexity I see is the selection of the right tensioner.

I ended up in this thread because I was looking for a solution to the Nuvinci tensioner and front derailleur issue, and it seems like at least some of it was being covered here, but I won't be using this set up on a long tail. I'm setting it up, hopefully, on a Long Haul Trucker. I'm basing my desire for a wider range on the fact that a Nuvinci alone has a slightly narrower range than my current 3 X 8 set up, and I occassionally find myself wishing for a little more in the top end. It sounds like penexpers (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=76597) is not going for a front derailleur, either, so I think we're covered. I am curious enough about the Nuvinci that I will probably try it without a front derailleur if I can't make it work with one, but as near as I can tell, since I need a chain tensioner anyway, if I find the right one, setting up a front derailleur with a Nuvinci will be no more difficult than setting up a derailleur with a gear cluster. The only added complexity I see is the selection of the right tensioner.

My mistake, thought you were going with a longtail.
Does the LHT have horizontal dropouts? If so you will be able to use a NuVinci without a tensioner (sans front derailer). It's the extra chain length of a longtail that requires the use of a tensioner.

Vertical dropouts. That's one reason I figure I should build it up with an front derailleur in mind. I will need a tensioner under any circumstances, and I already have a serviceable front derailleur, so I might as well try and get a chain tensioner that will work with a front derailleur. If I don't ever need that upper range, so much the better, but nothing is lost by setting it up to have that option.

That's true.

I'm with Allen G here in that I think adding a front derailleur would be an unnecessary complication.

I have ordered this from SJS cycles

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sessionID/OYC/product-POWERPLAY-Powerplay-CHT100-Single-Speed-Chain-Tensioner-13370.htm

It looks like it should work. In the event it doesn't I will order the Rohloff.

This chain tensioner arrived and it just about fits.

I hope the Nuvinci hub is going to be worth - after all the trouble I've had with it so far, part of me is thinking I should have just bought a rohloff.

This chain tensioner arrived and it just about fits.

I hope the Nuvinci hub is going to be worth - after all the trouble I've had with it so far, part of me is thinking I should have just bought a rohloff.

Looks like I spoke too soon. The tensioner interferes with the shifting device i.e the shifting rod is unable to engage the shifting device correctly. BAck to the drawing board.

Ugh....sorry to hear that. What exactly does the drawing board entail at this point?

Have a look at DMR chain devices (http://www.dmrbikes.com/?Section=products&pageType=category&category=3&categoryName=Chain Devices). If anything else fails, you may want to use some fixed chain tensioner for BB mounting (http://www.dmrbikes.com/?Section=products&pageType=item&category=3&CategoryName=Chain Devices&itemid=CDECR). There could be some benefits with this solution (no messing around at rear wheel), but it may be a bit noisy and will need some adjustment every now and then.
However, I would try to abuse some ordinary cheap rear deraillieur. Should be able to handle most chain lines with a bit of adjustment or tinkering.

Check out this photo on Flickr (http://flickr.com/photos/mikecobb/3047602742/in/photostream/). Someone seems to have run into some clearance problems with a similar set up, using a Melvin chain tensioner. They solved it by taking away a little of the housing off of the shift mechanism. Not an ideal solution, and possibly not necessary if you can just find a tensioner that fits, but it may solve your problem.

Everyone I've seen has cut the pod housing.

Morgan was speculating that this might work though. http://www.kore-usa.com/old_site/dreactor.htm

Seems I've read that it's hit-or-miss as to whether or not this will work on any given frame. If it works, though, it's probably one of the best solutions since it completely bypasses any crowding issues at the derailleur hanger.

Morgan was speculating that this might work though. http://www.kore-usa.com/old_site/dreactor.htm

Great! (http://www.kore-usa.com/products/chain_reactor.html) Thanks for this hint. Never seen this nice part before. I have been searching for such thing to replace the heavy Alfine tensioner and making easier Big Dummy Alfine rear wheel removal. Currently I need to remove Alfine tensioner prior to dismounting the wheel.
Now trying to purchase this item in Germany...
Regards, Phil

i've been reading some good feedback on the alfine hub used for mtn biking. i don't think it's officially recommended for it, but seems like it might be tough enough for mtn/utility use.

the nuvinci also sounds interesting, altho i seem to recall it is very heavy(?) not sure how heavy but on a utility bike it don't matter anyway.

the nuvinci also sounds interesting, altho i seem to recall it is very heavy(?) not sure how heavy but on a utility bike it don't matter anyway.

More cinder block than brick.
My back wheel weighs over ten pounds.

In practice, its not that heavy. When you ride the bike, you don't feel the weight and on a utility bike, you're not going to be racing so the hub weight isn't a concern.

More cinder block than brick.
My back wheel weighs over ten pounds.
Go back to post #65.
If your wheel weighs in the 10 lb range with a Nuvinci, I'd be interested to know what you are running for rims and tires.

In practice, its not that heavy. When you ride the bike, you don't feel the weight and on a utility bike, you're not going to be racing so the hub weight isn't a concern.


A lot of people say it, but noone believes it. Weight is always a concern.

More cinder block than brick.
My back wheel weighs over ten pounds.


Go back to post #65.
If your wheel weighs in the 10 lb range with a Nuvinci, I'd be interested to know what you are running for rims and tires.

Over ten pounds, not just ten pounds.

The truth? I wouldn't want it on a road bike. Far too heavy. I have it on a Peugeot Puymorens PX 10 converted into a Peugeot PX 50 Porteur bike with 650B wheels and for the utility application, the hub is serviceable. But I wouldn't recommend it if you're not going to use it as a commuter.

Success! Got the DMR STS tensioner and it fits perfectly. Should get the rest of this bike done tomorrow and hopefully get some miles done over the weeekend.

Good to know. I look forward to hearing how you like the hub once you get it rolling.

hey looks like Nuvinci have posted a gear inches comparison on their site

http://www.fallbrooktech.com/Docs/Gear_Range_Chart_011309Web.pdf

Cool. I saw that the other day and didn't realize it was new. It's a nice graph, and it shows what I had pretty much figured using Sheldon's gear calculators: that with my current set-up, closest, I imagine, to the mountain triple, the Nuvinci will take my two lowest gears away from me and possibly my highest (running a single chainring). Given how often I use those low gears and my highest gear, I could probably live with a single, but since I'm going to try for a double, I should be able to break the sound barrier.;)

Or my legs.

Actually, seeing it all laid out graphically like that does make me reconsider my outer chainring size. They went with a 12 teeth difference and got to an upper limit comparable to a road bike. I just went with the biggest outer ring I had easy access to, giving me a 16 teeth difference, and an upper range that I will probably never, ever come close to. Probably I'll have to estimate what percentage of the hub I'm using on the big chainring and scale down that outer ring accordingly so I can get more use out of it. I probably just need to figure out what constitutes stupid-hard gear inches and set my upper ring for that.