Utility Cycling - Drivetrains for Big Dummy

Hi,

I am going to start buying parts for a BD in the hope that I get one of the frames in the next batch. I am looking at alternatives to the Rohloff speedhub, mainly just to see how the costs stack up. I am not really well up on MTB drivetrains so what would people recommend for the BD.

Thanks!

I have a Rohloff, but if I hadn't got one I'd build up something like the following:

- LX disc rear hub
- 36H or 40H freeride rim
- LX mega range 8 or 9 speed cassette 11-34
- LX or XT rear dérailleur
- Deore crankset 22/32/42
- LX front dérailleur
- bar end shifter [mounted on Paul's Thumbies if needed depending on the bars]

I've used the same drivetrain on touring bikes and been pleased. Good function for the $$$.

My current BD build:

- Deore 32H disc front and rear hub
- Deore 9 speed 11-34 cassette
- SRAM X-7 rear derailleur
- SRAM X-9 triggers
- LX front derailleur
- LX crankset 22/32/42
- SRAM PC-991 chain


Here are my thoughts so far:
- I may bump up the rear hub to a 36H as I busted a spoke recently but it came from a hardtail that got abused the way it was meant to be. My LBS changed all the spokes as he didn't like the ones that were on as they were all no-name generic spokes. I'll see how that goes.

- I usually use X-9 rear derailleurs but decided to go slightly cheaper with the X-7. I think I'll switch back to the X-9 if I ever bust this one as I didn't know the X-7 had such large jockey wheels. I find it a pain to remove the rear wheel. For some reason I find it easier on my X-9 bikes.

- I love Shimano outboard bearing cranks. They are very easy to work with and I have them on all my bikes (960-XTR on my FS, Compact on my road bike, LX on my BD).

- The Deore cassette is what was on my donor bike. I haven't had any problems using the worn cassette with my new chain/new cranks but will be changing it soon as I don't want any issues. I'll be moving up to LX or whatever is the lowest level Shimano that has the spider carrier as I don't like using the lower end blocks of lead.

- The LX front derailleur does what it's supposed to without any issues.

- SRAM chains with the Power Link are just awesome.

Bear in mind that a lot of the above is probably rooted in prejudice and superstition. All you have to do is a search for the term "Shimano vs SRAM" to see what i mean. I settled on certain elements because they worked well for me and I found no need to move away from them. That's not to say that the alternatives won't serve you well.

How does a standard drivetrain shift on the dummy? Does the extra chain length create any problems (not really problems per-se... I guess I mean is there a different feel, a delay or anything)?

I've been gripped with decision paralysis while my bare frame hangs sadly on the wall.

How does a standard drivetrain shift on the dummy? Does the extra chain length create any problems (not really problems per-se... I guess I mean is there a different feel, a delay or anything)?

I've been gripped with decision paralysis while my bare frame hangs sadly on the wall.

No problems whatsoever. I feel no delays and everything works crisply. Although I did put an old tube on the cross bar that runs perpendicular to the chain line I honestly do not think I've ever seen or felt it slap. I hop curbs with it and have ridden on gravel trails.

Oh that reminds me, I also have about 1.5 chain length ofSRAM PC-991. I'll update my listing above.

What about a Nexus 8 speed internal hub? I guess you'd have to run a chain tensioner like on the Rohloff, but it seems to give you the clean lines & low maintenance of the Rohloff for less cost and obviously with less range and Teutonic (over?)engineering/precision/whatever. Seems like a decent alternative, all things considered, so long as it was paired with an appropriate chainring up front.

Steve

From my limited understanding, I don't think the Nexus 8 will take the heavy loads on the rear. I could be wrong about that though.

Thanks for the replies so far. Seems like you can build up a good drivetrain for not too much $$$. I have a tough choice to make.

From my limited understanding, I don't think the Nexus 8 will take the heavy loads on the rear. I could be wrong about that though.

Thanks for the replies so far. Seems like you can build up a good drivetrain for not too much $$$. I have a tough choice to make.

If you haven't tried a SRAM drivetrain, I recommend you find someone with that kind of set up and give it a whirl. I really love how the 1:1 actuation feels. I had Shimano triggers on a hardtail and liked them but the moment I tried the SRAM thumb-shifters I was sold.

If you're not aware, you must use a SRAM rear thumb shifter with a SRAM derailleur as they are both 1:1 actuation. SRAM does make a Shimano compatible rear shifter but if you're going to go with a Shimano rear derailleur I'd stick with the Shimano shifters.

There is no restriction for the front shifter/front derailleur combinations.

If you haven't tried a SRAM drivetrain, I recommend you find someone with that kind of set up and give it a whirl. I really love how the 1:1 actuation feels. I had Shimano triggers on a hardtail and liked them but the moment I tried the SRAM thumb-shifters I was sold.

If you're not aware, you must use a SRAM rear thumb shifter with a SRAM derailleur as they are both 1:1 actuation. SRAM does make a Shimano compatible rear shifter but if you're going to go with a Shimano rear derailleur I'd stick with the Shimano shifters.

There is no restriction for the front shifter/front derailleur combinations.

I also have the sram setup on my xtracycle. Very very nice. I would highly recommend it. Pretty easy to dial in and haven't had to adjust it at all in over 700 miles.

From my limited understanding, I don't think the Nexus 8 will take the heavy loads on the rear. I could be wrong about that though.

Thanks for the replies so far. Seems like you can build up a good drivetrain for not too much $$$. I have a tough choice to make.

Don't bakfiesten use a Nexus 8?

I'm liking the SRAM X7 parts that came on my complete just fine. I think it shifts better than the LX stuff on my mtb did when new. My only minor gripe with the X7 stuff, the dérailleur has a weird cable guide on it that makes the rear wheel hard to get out.

As far as internal hubs, AllenG is way into the NuVinci hub, I'm planning on trying one some day. He says he's destroyed some shimano and sram internal hubs on his electrified xtracycle. My dad has a bike with a nexus 8, not geared very low, and it feels a little grindy if you stomp on it real hard. I could definitely see it exploding if used for cargo duty.

As far as internal hubs, AllenG is way into the NuVinci hub, I'm planning on trying one some day. He says he's destroyed some shimano and sram internal hubs on his electrified xtracycle. My dad has a bike with a nexus 8, not geared very low, and it feels a little grindy if you stomp on it real hard. I could definitely see it exploding if used for cargo duty.

Yep, I am. It's still going strong, smooth as silk, dead silent, and no problems.
I've not owned a Shimano IGH as yet. I have cracked a SA-8 (geared way to high for utility bikes) and two SRAMs could not hold up (constantly slipping gears).

Of the hubs I've owned I think the NuVinci is the most robust, even more so than my Rohloffs.

Don't bakfiesten use a Nexus 8?

According to Clever Cycles, yes: http://clevercycles.com/store/?c=web2.68

The bakfiets has a 180lb. load rating for the box up front, and a 70lb. load rating for the rack in back. Combined that's more than an Xtracycle is rated for. Not sure what the Big Dummy rating is, though presumably the same / similar? Not sure if the X's rating is more related to the subframe itself or to the durability of the v-racks / wideloaders / etc.

So theoretically if it works for a bakfiets it ought to work for an Xtracycle / Big Dummy... but then again theory and practice do tend to diverge, often at rather critical junctures ;)

I guess it would depend on whether one planned to routinely carry close to max gross weight or not.

Steve

I guess you'd have to run a chain tensioner like on the Rohloff...
Steve

I would recommend a chain tensioner of some sort anyway. Given the length of the chain, I had bounce problems where the chain would hop over the teeth of the IGH's cog, which can cause damage to your hub. A chain tensioner cures this issue completely.

Yep, I am. It's still going strong, smooth as silk, dead silent, and no problems.
I've not owned a Shimano IGH as yet. I have cracked a SA-8 (geared way to high for utility bikes) and two SRAMs could not hold up (constantly slipping gears).

Of the hubs I've owned I think the NuVinci is the most robust, even more so than my Rohloffs.

May I ask how much the NuVinci hub is and where one may acquire it?

May I ask how much the NuVinci hub is and where one may acquire it?

Fallbrook Tech (http://www.fallbrooktech.com/NuVinci.asp)<--The manufacturer
It's carried by Seattle Bicycle Supply (http://www.seattlebikesupply.com/scripts/fccgi.exe). Your LBS should be able to order it. Prices online run about $325-$375 (The anodized version going for more).
Video showing how it works (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVPjhmTThPo)

It has a caveat. It's huge, which is why it can handle big loads, but it means it weighs a ton--ton and half (seriously your rear tire will come in at over ten pounds). Have it laced up double crossed, triple crossing the spokes puts the nipples at too steep of an angle.

It is absolutely smooth, has a 250% gear range, is completely quiet--not even clicking when costing, and is robust enough to be used as a transmission on a vehicle as large as a golf cart (scaled up versions are in use in tractors). For a utility bike I think it is a perfect hub.

http://homepage.mac.com/awcg/.Pictures/Bike/NuVinci/Hub1.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/awcg/.Pictures/Bike/NuVinci/Shifter.gif

Thanks for the replies. I don't think that weight will be a concern for my BD so I think I will go and buy the NuVinci hub.

Thanks everyone for the input.

Anyone had any experience with one of these?

http://www.rohloff.de/en/products/speedhub/index.html

Anyone had any experience with one of these?

http://www.rohloff.de/en/products/speedhub/index.html

You apparently haven't been following the big dummy threads...

Anyone had any experience with one of these?

http://www.rohloff.de/en/products/speedhub/index.html

What's a Roollhoff????...:o

Thanks for the replies. I don't think that weight will be a concern for my BD so I think I will go and buy the NuVinci hub.

Thanks everyone for the input.

I built up my Big Dummy with the idea of making it similar to my mountain bike and wanted to keep the costs relatively low, otherwise there's a good chance I would have gone with the NuVinci, too. Good choice!

Does anyone know where I can source a NuVinci hub in Europe? I've done some searching over the weekend, but I haven't found anywhere that sells them yet. I don't think there's much point in trying my LBS.

http://homepage.mac.com/awcg/.Pictures/Bike/NuVinci/Shifter.gif

I like the inchworm;);)

Does anyone know where I can source a NuVinci hub in Europe? I've done some searching over the weekend, but I haven't found anywhere that sells them yet. I don't think there's much point in trying my LBS.

Maybe you can get the kit from the US and have the wheel built up locally.

I am in Canada but my "LBS" is actually in Colorado. I use "Mountain High Cyclery", an outfit run by Larry Mettler who is really well known by mountain bikers. He does ship to me in Canada so I suspect he may ship overseas. The best part is that he charges actual shipping charges and his prices are very reasonable. I no longer use the JensonUSA/PricePoints/etc. of the world as Larry's prices are very competitive and the customer service is second to none.

Here's the contact page. Pay no heed to the outdated web page, he does answer his emails and if he has access to the NuVinci stuff he'll get it for you.
http://www.mtnhighcyclery.com/mhc5.htm

Here's my story showing you the level of customer service. When I first heard of the Big Dummy several months back I sent him a note asking if he could get Surly products and if he could get the Big Dummy. This was way back in the prototype stage. He obviously could not get them but then one day, out of the blue, I got an email from him telling me that Big Dummies were available that morning and if I still wanted it. This was months and months after my initial contact. I ordered my Big Dummy from him along with a bunch of the necessary parts needed to complete the build.

So, take the tme to email Larry and see if he could get you NuVinci stuff.

According to Clever Cycles, yes: http://clevercycles.com/store/?c=web2.68

The bakfiets has a 180lb. load rating for the box up front, and a 70lb. load rating for the rack in back. Combined that's more than an Xtracycle is rated for. Not sure what the Big Dummy rating is, though presumably the same / similar? Not sure if the X's rating is more related to the subframe itself or to the durability of the v-racks / wideloaders / etc.

So theoretically if it works for a bakfiets it ought to work for an Xtracycle / Big Dummy... but then again theory and practice do tend to diverge, often at rather critical junctures ;)

I guess it would depend on whether one planned to routinely carry close to max gross weight or not.

Steve

I thought about this too. I like the idea of an internal hub for a utility bike. However, I really have a hard time plunking $1000+ on just the hub.

According to http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/ neither the Shimano Alfine 8 nor the SRAM I-Motion 9 are rated for tandems or cargo. However, I have seen many references -- including the Nexus 8 on the bakfiets -- to these hubs successfully applied to utility cycling applications. For the price, setting up either hub with a double in the front -- according to the hubstripping website, one could pair up the i-Motion 9 with a typical compact crank in the front -- would achieve an excellent gear range for a lot less money.

I thought about this too. I like the idea of an internal hub for a utility bike. However, I really have a hard time plunking $1000+ on just the hub.

According to http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/ neither the Shimano Alfine 8 nor the SRAM I-Motion 9 are rated for tandems or cargo. However, I have seen many references -- including the Nexus 8 on the bakfiets -- to these hubs successfully applied to utility cycling applications. For the price, setting up either hub with a double in the front -- according to the hubstripping website, one could pair up the i-Motion 9 with a typical compact crank in the front -- would achieve an excellent gear range for a lot less money.

Has anyone ever combined a Nexus 8 in the back with a Schlumpf in front?

Has anyone ever combined a Nexus 8 in the back with a Schlumpf in front?

In the folding bikes section, I have seen this on a Downtube Full Suspension bike.

For the price, would you be better off with just a Rohloff?

Does anyone know where I can source a NuVinci hub in Europe? I've done some searching over the weekend, but I haven't found anywhere that sells them yet. I don't think there's much point in trying my LBS.

http://www.kinetics.org.uk/
^^^
Ben Cooper is good for having bicycle esoterica. They are not listed on his site, but I've gotten some odd ball stuff from him in the past.

In regards to the Schlumpf with an internal hub in the rear ...

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=5988263&highlight=schlumpf#post5988263

This may seem a bit redundant, but I would like to second the recommendation of the NuVinci for any cargo bike. I am a huge fan of internally geared hubs in general, and have ridden them on many bikes, and worked on many different hubs over the years. My impression of any of the "normal" geared hubs (Nexus, SRAM, or Sturmey) is that they work beautifully on normal bikes, but are not really durable enough for use with anything that will take a payload of more than 100 lbs. The SRAM hubs seem to be the most durable of them all, but even they can be destroyed by heavy loads, steep hills and agressive riding (it takes a while, but I've done it). The Rohloff, of course, is in a class by itself, and no one has been able to destroy one of them (that the maker knows of). If you can afford it, there is not much to be said against it; the only possible drawback is that it still has discrete shift points, and needs to disengage from one gear and engage the next before continuing to transmit torque - what we've always been used to, in other words. The NuVinci is particularly suited to heavy use like this, since it has no actual gears inside to wear down or lose teeth. The continuous nature of the shifting mechanism means that it is always in gear, and therefore can never be mis shifted. It is also extremely easy to downshift in overloaded situations; any time the pedal is unweighted a bit, the hub can shift, so you get just a bit of shift at every dead spot in your stroke, or a big shift, if you want, if you actually pause intentionally. I've been trying to overload mine, just to see, and so far the hub is much stronger than I am, which is how it should be. Just for reference, I am also using it with two chainrings, and it gives me a range of 20 gear inches to 90 gear inches - enough, in other words. For the price, nothing can touch it. For another perspective on a NuVinci Dummy, see: http://tinyurl.com/4743tl

Interesting ... however, the manufacturer states that the minimum front chainring to rear sprocket ratio should be 2:1 ... i.e., 44/22 or 32/16.

Putzing with Sheldon's calculator, I calculate something like a 25-26 gear inch bottom with that combination and the fattest Big Apples. From touring, I can tell you that will not be low enough for my tired legs.

EDIT: Here (http://www.fallbrooktech.com/docs/N170S%20Owners%20Manual_FTIc.pdf) is the document.

invisiblehand: Indeed, according to Fallbrook's recommendation, the lowest gear ratio one can achieve will be a 1:1; that is, 26 gear inches for a 26" wheel, 28 inches (or so) for a 700c, etc. I have the advantage of having been able to question the engineers directly about this. In a face to face meeting, I asked them three times what the reason for this recommendation was, and what the consequences of exceeding these parameters would be. At first they seemed to be implying that they had just chosen those numbers as being the most useful range for most riders (they're new to the bicycle industry, and had no idea of cargo bikes), but when I pressed them, they did say that the hub was "more efficient" within this range. Not once did they mention any durability issues, which I found especially interesting, as every other manufacturer will state explicitly that exceeding the ratio limitations will cause damage to the internal mechanism of the hub. I decided that I could tolerate a bit of inefficiency, if it gave me the gears I needed, so I did not hesitate to ignore the manufacturer's specs. As mentioned, I have also been trying to break it, with no success (yay!). To date, the most extreme load has been a 140 lb log on the back of my 100 lb bike, going up about 110 yards of 11% grade. The hub was fine....my lungs and legs were less happy, but they survived. The experimentation continues.

Question on the Nuvinci. How hard is it to remove the wheel for flat repair etc? I am familiar with the Nexus 3 and 7. Seems like a great option, if I could get used to the grip shift.

Question on the Nuvinci. How hard is it to remove the wheel for flat repair etc? I am familiar with the Nexus 3 and 7. Seems like a great option, if I could get used to the grip shift.

There is a small shifter box you have to un-click, other than that it is the same as removing any bolt on axel.

The grip shift is easy enough.

The Rohloff, of course, is in a class by itself, and no one has been able to destroy one of them (that the maker knows of).

They have had failures. They have been due to over torquing from using the hub beyond the manufacturer's specs. They have as yet to have one fail due to manufacturer's defects, or one fail in normal use.

Allen g: I had not heard of any failures due to overtorqueing Rohloffs; I had been under the impression that it couldn't be done. Do you have details? I'm seriously curious.

Allen g: I had not heard of any failures due to overtorqueing Rohloffs; I had been under the impression that it couldn't be done. Do you have details? I'm seriously curious.

Val, I've looked and I can't find the specific article I had read. It has happened when combining the Rohloff with the Schlumpf Mountain and High Speed drives. The regular Schlumpf Speed drive is kosher, gives one an 868% gear range to boot.

http://www.rohloff.de/en/info/faq/faq_detail/article/schlumpf-speed-drive-high-speed-drive-mountain-drive//bp/289/index.html

invisiblehand: Indeed, according to Fallbrook's recommendation, the lowest gear ratio one can achieve will be a 1:1; that is, 26 gear inches for a 26" wheel, 28 inches (or so) for a 700c, etc. I have the advantage of having been able to question the engineers directly about this. In a face to face meeting, I asked them three times what the reason for this recommendation was, and what the consequences of exceeding these parameters would be. At first they seemed to be implying that they had just chosen those numbers as being the most useful range for most riders (they're new to the bicycle industry, and had no idea of cargo bikes), but when I pressed them, they did say that the hub was "more efficient" within this range. Not once did they mention any durability issues, which I found especially interesting, as every other manufacturer will state explicitly that exceeding the ratio limitations will cause damage to the internal mechanism of the hub. I decided that I could tolerate a bit of inefficiency, if it gave me the gears I needed, so I did not hesitate to ignore the manufacturer's specs. As mentioned, I have also been trying to break it, with no success (yay!). To date, the most extreme load has been a 140 lb log on the back of my 100 lb bike, going up about 110 yards of 11% grade. The hub was fine....my lungs and legs were less happy, but they survived. The experimentation continues.

Hey Val,

Thanks for the details. I am more likely to try the NuVinci.

BTW, I would figure that your head would be close to exploding too, but perhaps you would have passed out before the pressure would have blown the top off carrying a load like that! :thumb:

So Val,

How much harder to shift under load does the nuvinci get when using the lowest gear?

If you're experimenting with trying to break it, some have speculated about putting a fixed cog on one, for a variable gear, fixed-wheel bike. I haven't read about anyone actually trying though. I guess a fixed gear bike that shifts without gears is a little esoteric.

Once again thanks for everyone's input. This has been a very informative thread.

I've done some more digging and with the way the $ is at the moment, it might be cheaper to import it from the US even if I do end up paying import duty and taxes on it. I have asked staton-inc.com for a quote for shipping and I will also ask in mtnhighcyclery.com.

Once again thanks for everyone's input. This has been a very informative thread.

I've done some more digging and with the way the $ is at the moment, it might be cheaper to import it from the US even if I do end up paying import duty and taxes on it. I have asked staton-inc.com for a quote for shipping and I will also ask in mtnhighcyclery.com.

MtnHighCyclery will also make sure all customs papers are in order *nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink*. Don't forget to ask.

So Val,

How much harder to shift under load does the nuvinci get when using the lowest gear?

If you're experimenting with trying to break it, some have speculated about putting a fixed cog on one, for a variable gear, fixed-wheel bike. I haven't read about anyone actually trying though. I guess a fixed gear bike that shifts without gears is a little esoteric.

If you have pressure on the pedals, the NuVinci is not going to shift. Take the pressure off and it shifts easily.

Of the hubs I've had, I prefer the shifting action of Rohloff best, followed very closely by NuVinci. Both shift equally easily.

Maxwell: What Allen G said - pressure on the pedals equals resistance to shifting. In theory, you could force the mech to shift without internal damage, but derailleur cables and cable binders are only so strong; much better to let it shift easily when the pressure is off. The advantage here is that the pressure does not have to be relieved for long enough to allow engagement of the next gear, as on other hubs. Rather, any pressure relief allows some shifting, so in extreme situations, you can do many "micro shifts", sometimes two or three per pedal stroke, until the ratio is properly adjusted. As for the fixed gear dream, that would be fantastic, but, unfortunately, it is not possible with this version of the hub. The mechanism itself freewheels, and only engages fully when pedalling forward. The reason for the external freewheel is that the mechanism and the seals give enough resistance that the hub would be prone to "ghost pedalling" if the cog were attached directly to the hub driver. The folks at Fallbrook have admitted that a fixed version might be a possibility in the future. As with any major company, they need to be convinced that the market justifies the research and manufacturing expense. And as for big loads, don't try to tell me you don't have a collection of such stories yourself - or is that a different thread?

And to confirm: the Nuvinci can be shifted while at a dead stop, too? Similar to the Rohloff, Nexus et al.

Despite its weight (which is arguably insignificant on a cargo bike), this may be the go. I'm liking what I'm reading, but one question to Val: in the three times you asked the Nuvinci folks about exceeding their stated limits, did you specifically prompt regarding durability issues? They might very well elide that discussion unless explicitly prompted... ;)

Steve

And to confirm: the Nuvinci can be shifted while at a dead stop, too? Similar to the Rohloff, Nexus et al.
Yes it can. Turn the knob and it shifts if the bike is in motion or not.


Despite its weight (which is arguably insignificant on a cargo bike), this may be the go. I'm liking what I'm reading, but one question to Val: in the three times you asked the Nuvinci folks about exceeding their stated limits, did you specifically prompt regarding durability issues? They might very well elide that discussion unless explicitly prompted... ;)

Steve

In my experience, I've on several occasions brought home 400 pounds of potting soil and or fertilizer on my Xtracycle. It's 7 miles from the nursery to my home, the largest hill is about a half a mile of 7%-8% grade, and between the electric assist and me standing on the cranks that's a lot of juice going through the hub. It's held up without sign of wear.

You guys have me thinking Nuvinci now.:thumb:

What do you think about this for prebuilt wheel?
http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=19010

surfimp: Indeed, since durability was my main concern, my questions were specifically about the consequences of exceeding the ratio recommendations, and whether such an application would lead to failure of the mechanism. They were understandably cagey; they did not state outright that the hub would be strong enough to withstand extreme torque, but they also did not warn me that it would not. It was my frustration with this approach that led me to repeat the question in various formats three times, thus giving them an opportunity to advise me of possible dire results. I also mentioned that I was very interested in putting one on a cargo bike, and they showed no trepidation. They pulled the "efficiency" card to get me off their case, I think. I have also sent pictures of my drive train, with a 22t freewheel and 46/34t chainrings, to one of their customer service reps, and have gotten no adverse comments in response. They have also seen pictures of the setup I put together for Bike Hugger (17t FW, 24/36t CRs), and they were impressed with the bike, but made no comment on the drivetrain. I think that the electric assist (Allen G, is that a StokeMonkey?) will do more to stress a hub than the extra torque from these drivetrains. The hub is solid. Good looking prebuilt, too, cman - hard to beat the price.

I think that the electric assist (Allen G, is that a StokeMonkey?) will do more to stress a hub than the extra torque from these drivetrains. The hub is solid. Good looking prebuilt, too, cman - hard to beat the price.

Val, thanks for the response. Interesting that these hubs are being used for other applications. There is a race circuit call Greenpower where several team are using them.
http://www.greenpower.co.uk/about/

Here is one from Team Bentley hooked up to a 24v motor. http://www.bentleygreenpower.com/car/

http://www.bentleygreenpower.com/ims/motorbench.jpg

In my experience, I've on several occasions brought home 400 pounds of potting soil and or fertilizer on my Xtracycle. It's 7 miles from the nursery to my home, the largest hill is about a half a mile of 7%-8% grade, and between the electric assist and me standing on the cranks that's a lot of juice going through the hub. It's held up without sign of wear.


:twitchy:

This is a regular old xtracycle, not a big dummy? Impressive either way.