Road Cycling - Why must you race/train on an open road?

Today I was invited to ride with a group to which I knew I would probably end up hating to ride with because of their lack of consience when it comes to riding on open roads.

I stayed with them for about 15 miles, ignoring a few infractions. When I saw the front guys (around 15) sneek around a car at a red light and then muscle their way across the intersection, I nearly left but because most of the group of 40 some waited, I let it go.

At the 15 mile point I was around 15 back (just on the edge of the "front" guys). We came up to a left turn which was red... Red. Red. Red. Even the straight lanes were red. I did not see these guys wanting to slow and I watched them enter the intersection and force a pickup-truck to come to a halt as it tried to turn from the road off to our right. The driver was getting really confused and was trying to figure out how to deal with this...

As I sat up, the remaing riders, some 40 odd, continued to ride through this red light...

I watched the group as it proceed down a two-lane road. They ocupied the entire West bound lane and were bleading over into the East bound lane. A car that passed me after I sat up now was trapped behind this group. There is a brand new 5-foot bike lane on this road too...

A few of the guys who were "invited" also sat up and now caught up to me as I watched the circus neander away from me.

So, being a strong rider, not that some of those guys could kill me in a crit, why ride like idiots on an open road? It furiates drivers and worse off, sooner or later someone is going to get hurt and killed. It is dangerous enough to ride on the road for training as it is...

Reasons I hear:
* Training on a crit course is boring (so what do track guys do? :mad:
* There are no major open roads without signals to ride in the area
* Stopping at a light causes cool down which is not wanted.
* I want to keep a fast average speed
* Stopping at lights makes the ride longer and I got stuff to do

I know if I live here long enough, actually it has already happened in one city, these guys will give the rest of us a bad name and drivers will perform road-rage or worse to us, cities will impose restrictions on roads we can ride on, peace officers will be forced to target us specifically even if we are riding in small groups...

Sigh. I guess I may eventually say "I told you so" when things begin to come unglued here.

Racing or not, this sort of behavior is dangerous and selfish as well as illegal. I'd enjoy seeing them forced to pick up trash on the side of the road, all in full gear including helmets, each wearing a sign that states ''Yes, I'm an arrogant scofflaw cycling dork doing community service. I must clear 25 miles of garbage before my bicycle is returned to me. Please discard your litter HERE."

Good on ya that you stopped riding with them.

Kudos for stopping.

People like that give us a bad name, as a group. We are labelled, and as such, treated in a way that we constantly whine about because of these people.

Wow, I would start talking to the orgonizer of that group and have him say something about riding safe. The times i have ridden with a group on open roads its expected that there will be red lights and you WILL stop for them. The rules of the road apply for both bikes and cars the same way RED MEANS STOP!!! I would do something quickly before someone gets hurt.

I went on a couple group rides led by a LBS last summer and was appalled at some of the behavior. One of the problems was that the group was too big, at least 30 riders, and people would run stop signs and red lights to stay with the pack and not get lost. I would have gone on a couple more rides before noticing a pattern and complaining to the shop owner, but I didn't go again. If you have already spoken to the organizer about this, then I wouldn't ride with them again. Find another group; or better yet, start your own and stress safety and courtesy. It might catch on!

you should ride with nyc fixed gear messengers for an hour or two.

That's why there's probabaly only 1 or 2 people that I know that I will ride with. For most of the cyclists that I've seen on the road, it would embarrass me to be seen with them.

I have learned to hate riding with people- most of the time, when I find someone to ride with, they blow every light no matter what, or they ride the opposite side of the street against the traffic, or the wrong way down a one way. That's just not my scene.

If they want to ride like that, might as well find some country road!

Koffee

I prefer to ride solo where I can focus on what I'm doing while I'm running red lights, stop signs and travelling in the opposite direction of traffic. Please wave when you see me ;)

divekrb - the law of gross tonnage applies in that case. You win. If they want to play chicken in your lane....

I might be very tempted to take my full size diesel pickup, pass that stupid group taking up the whole road, and let them inhale some diesel exhaust while I pace the leaders. Yeah, I know, 2 wrongs don't make a right. Oh well. I'd also muscle my way into the middle of the group at the intersection if I had the light. If I inch out, they'll stop.... Same for cars.

Those must be the same groups that look at me like i'm some pile of sh$t.

Well from what I was told, when the shop owner is there, he comes out and does the safe ride speech.

Then he, sometimes, goes out with them, he stops at the first light and the rest of them take off...

I think he doesn't realize that some day someone can sue him on grounds that he knows this is happening under his "good name" and that he is still liable even if he gives a warning (a hollow warning is the same as promoting the illegal actions).

I'd heard this group cleaned up their act and was invited by a friend who rides with them a lot... Well I found they didn't change...

Later I found secrets where they said they had three crashes in the last month and they eshelon out into other lanes of traffic in cross winds and such.

One day this will unfortunatly kill someone and I suspect at that sad day is where those sobs will pay for their neligence.

Meanwhile, as suggested, I already ride with a group who obeys the traffic laws...

Wanna know something funny? our group ride slower (24-26mph) because we are smaller (5-6 guys)... But those from this insane group when they ride with us they say it is too much work and go back and hide in this insane pack of 60 maniacs (sure you can do 30+mph if you can live to tell about it!)

My response to your thread title is that what you described is not what I consider an open road! And you can train responsibly, even with a group (of up to maybe 10) without interfering with traffic significantly more than when riding solo (assuming the group is willing to "single up" when appropriate).

Groups like that give legitimacy to claims that cycling on roads should be outlawed...

Yeah, I know, 2 wrongs don't make a right.

But sometimes they do make 99/100 of a right ;)

Kudos for stopping.

I have had some of the same experiences you describe. I won't ride with a group that is flagrant in it's recklessness.

I figure that there is enough animosity towards cyclist out there. Why create more?

Every interaction with a driver, we have the opportunity to either enhance the relationship or degrade it. I choose to try to enhance it.

It's not training on the roads that are the problem, it's how we behave when we are out there.

It's all about choice.

Len

Group of 40 seems to big outside of an organized event imo it will lead to this behavior. Funny thing is you really see it from the other side of the coin when you are a roady yourself logging in 4-5k miles a year on your bike driving your car around a narrow Virginia mountain road and all of a sudden a bunch of these said riders all over the road, beep beep exchange finger salutes and go on...

Because the living room´s too small .

there are a few places in the bay area where the cops are always watching and guys and girls like that will understand that the law does apply to cyclist.

I know exactly the group that prestonjb is referring to. They are a serious hazard in the western part of our county, and seriously give a bad name to those of us that strive to maintain a safe ride atmosphere.
Funny, I posted similar complaints about the same group that he rode with a while back, but many of the respondents here indicated that it wasn't MY problem.
For the record, prestonjb's regular club-ride groups DO ride safely, and regularly with groups of 20-30 riders.

There should be some way to punish those morons, and that's exactly what they are. Not only are they endangering their own lives, they are also putting everyone in the group at risk, and all the drivers that are dodging them and trying to figure out what the heck they are going to do next.

If they are members of a club, report to their president and tell him you are calling the police to report their illegal and dangerous tactics.

These guys do not belong on the road.

Wow...I'm really lucky...

In Indy we have the second largest city owned park in the country. One big very rolling loop around this park is over 15 miles. The speed limit for cars (vigorously enforced by the Park Rangers) is 20 mph. Most of the top crit riders and triathletes in the area train here.

When I leave the park it's into farm country with county roads that are not very heavily traveled. Not too many folks live out beyond the park. The park is at the edge of the county, in a very rural area. A lot of cyclists ride out there, so the people who do live there are aware of us.

What's unfortunate is that the type of behavior exhibited in the first story is what triggered those disc jockey idiots to start the "hit a cyclist" campaign. While that was obviously not right either (and cost them their jobs), we are sometimes our own worst enemy.

Kudos for leaving.

There should be some way to punish those morons, and that's exactly what they are. Not only are they endangering their own lives, they are also putting everyone in the group at risk, and all the drivers that are dodging them and trying to figure out what the heck they are going to do next.

If they are members of a club, report to their president and tell him you are calling the police to report their illegal and dangerous tactics.

These guys do not belong on the road.

Somebody on a cell phone with the group calls the police. I saw it happen on a ride I was on....five guys pulled that stuff and another rider whipped out a cell phone...about 20 minutes later, the police observed them running red lights and pulled all five over and gave them tickets.

I live in a fairly rural area and we still have to behave! The roads we ride are not peppered with stop signs and lights as much as being rarow and twisty.

As cyclists we have fought for the freedom to ride on the same roads as cars and trucks. The price is a small one - We have to obay the same traffic laws!!! To do otherwise brings the wrath of the motorized public (and they are bigger than us in size and numbers!!). Does anyone remember the Clear Channel incodents of the past year?? Perhaps the guys that form the massive groups and then ignore the rights of others should consider the bad image THEY are giving anyone who dons lycra and goes out and rides.

The comment about NYC bike mesengers also deserves some response - The bike mesengers I have met here in the Baltimore area are for the most part certafiable! They do not comport themselves in a way that supports good public opinion about cyclists at all. They dart in and out of traffic, don't signal and god forbid they mess up their bizarre hair styles with anything as silly as a helmet!!

When I was a kid we had to register our bikes (mostly for safety) and took a little test about road safety. When I rode a motorcycle I had to take a driving test to prove that I would be safe on the road and would not cause an accident. Perhaps we are at the point where we need to consider having a permit or something for group rides over a certain size or have cyclists take a road safety course and pass a test! Well enogh ranting on ths subject. I think I will go out and see if I can enrage a few motorists on my bike (Just kidding guys!!)

the funny thing is, the messengers that you're talking about are probably stronger cyclists than you or anyone in your "group." messengers ride the way they ride because the of environment they are riding in and the circumstances under which they are riding. they ride to pay the bills, in a very bike unfriendly environment. they run lights and dart in and out of traffic because every sometimes, every second counts. sometimes, you just can't wait for the oaf in the giant SUV to get start moving forward. it's a hard job and a hard life. i think if you were out there 5 days a week 8 hours a day, you'd probably adopt the same tactics and techniques that they have.

messengers pretty much ride very smart (except for the whole no helmet thing). they spot a gap in the traffic where they can go and they go there. they may be aggressive, but they're not insane.

Sorry. If a messenger runs a light they are wrong.

My sister lives in NYC and she has smacked a messenger with her purse, well backpack, because as she said either she was going down or he was and she decided not to.

She also tells me that the "crit" type riders in Central Park are notorious for mowing down or at least scaring the beegees out of pedestrians trying to cross from the outside of the road that loops the park to the inside... Even whey the pedestrian waits at the PEDESTRIAN CROSSING LIGHT.

Sorry. Agressive is one thing, blowing a light is wrong... Oh actually it is illegal...

i didn't say they were right. just said why.

and blah blah blah illegal schmillegal, if an intersection is clear, i'm going through it, green light or not...the difference is, i'm not taking 15 other spandex clad warriors with me when i do it, and thus, not impeding traffic. i do generally slow down or stop at red lights though, to make sure it's clear first, or i pace myself so the light will be green when i get to it. it's all a part of riding in a city.

But wait...

I am taking your context. You said messengers blasting through traffic and lights. You use the word CIRCUMSTANCES...

That WORD is EXACT in meaning and STATES THEY SHOULD STOP because of the ""circumstances"" you describe... Lots of traffic, lots of blind spots, lots of opporunities for fate to stick out its left leg and cause the messenger to crash into a pedestrian or more likely a car to accelerate thinking the way is clear only for a bike going at 18+mph to "spot a gap in traffic" and smear his arse all over the tarmac...


In those terms I think my expression ILLEGAL is EXPLICIT and APPROPRIATE for the CIRCUMSTANCES.


Now if you are at an intersection where you only hear the wind whistling through the trees and no one is in sight and you know that you probably cannot trip the sensor for the light and... and... and camelot is to your left... Ok that is too much... So back on the topic, I think I could consider those CIRCUMSTANCES an ok time to roll a light.

Sorry but when you back-flipped I had to respond.

My cycling is split between commuting, riding with a buddy or two, and rides with a local club. When I'm by myself, I will admit to an occasional infraction of the traffic laws. But only when I am either in the middle of nowhere, or in a situation where my presence at a particular intersection is more dangerous than what I have to do to get out of it (some of these old New England roads are no wider than the cow paths they started out as). When I ride with my buddies, we will roll through stop signs as long as there is no one there. During group rides,we follow the letter of the law, period. BTW, anyone else ever get stopped for speeding????

DEMON

Sounds like a great way to get a ride to the hospital.