Fifty Plus (50+) - Spin off from dnvrfx Tyre thread.

Didn't want to hijack dnvrfx's "Do tyres make a difference" thread so just want to pass on a few "Theories" I have. As an older rider- I have always tried to find things that make it easier to propel the bike with the least resistance possible. Many items make this possible and Tyres are one of the best improvements you can put on a bike- along with better quality wheels. It does not matter what bike you have- unless it is one of the top of the range models- there has to be some concessions to quality to get down to a price point. Some of the concessions do not affect the performance of the bike such as lower grade crankset- or quality of the saddle- but the stock wheels on a bike can normally be improved on.

Most of the wheels are Machine built and although they will be round and not out of true- they do not stay that way for long. In house branded wheels are normally the worst and besides the build- there is also the quality of the components that will not help performance either. I have always been a believer in hand built wheels and they are not as expensive as you may think. But even stock wheels can be improved by letting a good wheelbuilder "Tweak" them by detensioning the spokes and retension and true. I Have a pair of Shimano wheels that were set upon by a wheel builder before I even got the bike and it has been noted that these wheels are good by other riders that have borrowed them.

Then onto tyres. I know some want comfort so use wide tyres and run them towards the lower end of the pressure range for some suspension. I prefer to use a low rolling resistance tyre and being a lightweight- I can use a 23 tyre and I normally inflate to around 140 psi to get the least drag out of those tyres. I use Michelin PR2s and I am happy with these but the other Tyre often recommended is Conti 4000s. These will be regarded as a race tyre by a lot of riders-although there must be others just as good. I stick with the Michelins because they have a bit of puncture resistance and have not let me down. I also have a pair of Michelin Lithions- but don't like them in the wet (We have had a lot of rain over here this year)

Other upgrades can be made to a bike to improve performance sush as lighter components- Higher Grade of the Groupset- but any performance gain will be minimal. The good point I like about a Wheel upgrade is that it is portable. If and when you sell the current bike- The Effective wheels can go on the new bike.

I have Michelin PR2's on my bike and they say max 116 PSI on the side. Do they make different ones or are you just going over the recommended limit? I had been running mine at 120 PSI but have recently dropped down to 110 for a little better ride. If I'm riding with my fast (well faster than me) friends I put 120 PSI in them.

Good solid post (meaning I agree with all of it)
I like fast tires. My next tires will be Schwalbe Ultremo Clincher Road Tire
They're getting great reviews over in road. Pricy, but what the heck. Here's the marketing noise:

Lighter: Only 195g.
Tougher: HD-V Guard. Puncture protection from high-density, woven Vectran. Patent-protected. Maximum defense
Faster: Triple Compound. Three optimized rubber mixtures. Fast, grippy, durable.

I recently bought new wheels for my wife, going with the "portable upgrade" idea. She may get a new bike someday, but these wheels should be keepers. She doesn't weigh much, so I'm expecting them to hold up well. That, and Williams has a great rep for service.
I did find myself second guessing my purchase when my sweet wife toasted me on our last outing. Wheels, placebo effect or a good nights sleep. whatever the reason (she's claiming it's the wheels) I got baked.
http://cccorlew.home.comcast.net/hosting/williams.gif

There's something about good wheels and tires that just seems to make a bike sing. Perhaps its all mirrors and dreams but I think not.

My own choice is Kenda Kalliente Iron Cloak (Kevlar anti flat belt) 195 gram 23mm at 110 to 120 psi mounted on Maddmaxx's own "race whels for big guys" brew. Its not so expensive to get custom hand built wheels if you build your own.

On the other hand, the MTB rides on Mavic Crossrides because I could buy them for less than the material would cost to build them myselm. This is another secret of home wheel builders...........as Stapfam notes, buy inexpensive machine built wheels with good parts and promptly rebuild them.

Didn't want to hijack dnvrfx's "Do tyres make a difference" thread so just want to pass on a few "Theories" I have. As an older rider- I have always tried to find things that make it easier to propel the bike with the least resistance possible. Many items make this possible and Tyres are one of the best improvements you can put on a bike- along with better quality wheels. It does not matter what bike you have- unless it is one of the top of the range models- there has to be some concessions to quality to get down to a price point. Some of the concessions do not affect the performance of the bike such as lower grade crankset- or quality of the saddle- but the stock wheels on a bike can normally be improved on.

Most of the wheels are Machine built and although they will be round and not out of true- they do not stay that way for long. In house branded wheels are normally the worst and besides the build- there is also the quality of the components that will not help performance either. I have always been a believer in hand built wheels and they are not as expensive as you may think. But even stock wheels can be improved by letting a good wheelbuilder "Tweak" them by detensioning the spokes and retension and true. I Have a pair of Shimano wheels that were set upon by a wheel builder before I even got the bike and it has been noted that these wheels are good by other riders that have borrowed them.

Then onto tyres. I know some want comfort so use wide tyres and run them towards the lower end of the pressure range for some suspension. I prefer to use a low rolling resistance tyre and being a lightweight- I can use a 23 tyre and I normally inflate to around 140 psi to get the least drag out of those tyres. I use Michelin PR2s and I am happy with these but the other Tyre often recommended is Conti 4000s. These will be regarded as a race tyre by a lot of riders-although there must be others just as good. I stick with the Michelins because they have a bit of puncture resistance and have not let me down. I also have a pair of Michelin Lithions- but don't like them in the wet (We have had a lot of rain over here this year)

Other upgrades can be made to a bike to improve performance sush as lighter components- Higher Grade of the Groupset- but any performance gain will be minimal. The good point I like about a Wheel upgrade is that it is portable. If and when you sell the current bike- The Effective wheels can go on the new bike.

I just posted to another thread so I will cut & paste here. Bottom line is that unless you are riding on a super smooth velodrome, your 140 psi is slowing you down. - TF
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Here is a reason. Unless you are on a super smooth surface (i.e. velodrome) the 100 psi will be faster than the 120psi.

The 120 feels faster? Which 'feels' faster a Jeep CJ going down the expressway at 55 or a Lexus at 85. Your hard tire is the Jeep.

Tests have shown that on real road surfaces, a hard tire goes up and down with each irregularity in the road surface. That means that you go up and down. Every 'up' takes energy and the only place that energy can come from is you pedalling. With a tire in the 80-110 psi range (depending on rider weight and road surface) the tire flexes (it's called suspension on most vehicles) and absorbes these irregularities. Result= minimal energy loss.

For most riders on most roads the 80-110 psi will provide the best compromise - again depending on weight. If you get pinch flats at these pressures with your tire, then go to a wider tire.

Attached is a chart with the Michelin recommendations for pressure based on the tire width and rider weight.

I've been thinking about upgrading my wheelset on my Casseroll later this summer. Right now they are sporting alexrims 450, the stock tires that came on my entry-level racing bike. I've read enough about better wheels making a real difference, that I'm willing to believe t, but I can't afford to spend a whole lot.

I've been looking at Mavic Open pros for the upgrade (~$250-300). Anyone have any opinion on these (or any others in that price range)?

Will I see a difference with $300 wheels? Or is that too low to see any difference between the and the alexrims?

I'm thinking about building up a new set of wheels...Ultegra hubs with 32 or 36 hole, 3x Velocity Aeroheads. My experience with similar wheels compared to the low-spoke-count bladed wheels is that they are more comfortable, spokes break less often and they are easier to straighten out.

Since I am mainly into long distance I tend to go with 28mm wide tires at about 100 psi mainly for comfort and to protect the rims.

On my touring bike, I have 26 x 1.75" tires which I run between 65 and 75 psi depending on the load. With its rack and stuff this is a heavy bike with a lot of aerodynamic drag. But, get inside the draft of a road bike and it can be surprisingly hard to shake. :D

Will I see a difference with $300 wheels? Or is that too low to see any difference between the and the alexrims?

To be honest- most will be an improvement on Alex Rims. Open pros are one of the popular upgrades- but I use CXP33's. Bit heavier but still a good rim.

And on the high tyre pressures I use. This has been by experimentation- and there are only a couple of roads where I notice that they bounce on the road with the rough surface. But at 5mph uphill- I have found that 140psi works for me. Below 120 and I hear the tyre squirming as I put in the pressure. And a big improvement I have found is less punctures. Have a lot of thorns round here and the higher presuures do stop the thorns penetrating to the tube.

Bottom line is that unless you are riding on a super smooth velodrome, your 140 psi is slowing you down... 140 psi? Ouch! That would slow me down a whole lot, I would soon be walking to save my rear.

I've been looking at Mavic Open pros for the upgrade (~$250-300). Anyone have any opinion on these (or any others in that price range)?

Will I see a difference with $300 wheels?

I upgraded to a pair of Mavic Ksyrium Equipes on my steel bike 2 years ago, bought them on ebay. Very nice solid wheel. Put a lot of miles on them with no loss of true. This may not be a wheel that works on your bike, Im not familiar with you bike. When I bought my Tarmac last year I put a set of Easton Orion 2s on it immediately. They seem to be very good as well but a bit more expensive.

IMHO the fit of the bike and functioning ability and smoothness of the drive train is most important. Going after weight next - the wheels are the first items to put on a diet as spinning weight is most important.

I just posted to another thread so I will cut & paste here. Bottom line is that unless you are riding on a super smooth velodrome, your 140 psi is slowing you down. - TF
---------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a reason. Unless you are on a super smooth surface (i.e. velodrome) the 100 psi will be faster than the 120psi.

The 120 feels faster? Which 'feels' faster a Jeep CJ going down the expressway at 55 or a Lexus at 85. Your hard tire is the Jeep.

Tests have shown that on real road surfaces, a hard tire goes up and down with each irregularity in the road surface. That means that you go up and down. Every 'up' takes energy and the only place that energy can come from is you pedalling. With a tire in the 80-110 psi range (depending on rider weight and road surface) the tire flexes (it's called suspension on most vehicles) and absorbes these irregularities. Result= minimal energy loss.

For most riders on most roads the 80-110 psi will provide the best compromise - again depending on weight. If you get pinch flats at these pressures with your tire, then go to a wider tire.

Attached is a chart with the Michelin recommendations for pressure based on the tire width and rider weight.
I too have found that high pressure taken too far decreases performance. High is good, but too high is definitely possible.

Being lazy, I had been pumping my tires only after the pressure dropped some so I would have rides at 120, and subsequent rides at lower pressures until I pumped them up again. I looked at averages speeds and how I felt and I was fastest and least tired at some mid point pressure-wise and slower and more tired at either extreme. So for me personal experience seems to bear out that when it comes to pressure there comes a point where too much is too much.