Living Car Free - Living Car-Dependent

I returned from a week of living with the relatives- as they do. Drive here, drive there, drive everywhere. I did around 525 miles driving in a week, just doing what they do. In the sprawl land, it takes longer to drive to the grocery than it does for me to walk to the grocery in DC. I even got the full car dependent treatment by being rammed from behind by another car. The cop who wrote up the accident report said "How can you live in DC? I was up there for vacation and couldn't believe the traffic." When I told him I don't drive and that he should've used public transport he said "No one told me about that." Anyway the overwhelming impression I had was that the car dependent lifestyle wastes too much time. To get cardio exercise I went to the beach and swam. Its unbelievable how much time these suburban people spend sitting in traffic going from one place to another. I did see more transportational bikers this trip. It was nice to experience car culture up close to make myself look smart not to be caught up in wasting my life sitting in a car.

http://www.goldengategarrison.com/albums-members/Super7/238195983_5f0a820a74_o.sized.jpg

You experienced a car-dependent locale, not "lifestyle". Imagine how tired you'd be, and how little you'd get done, if you had to bike all those 525 miles.

You experienced a car-dependent locale, not "lifestyle". Imagine how tired you'd be, and how little you'd get done, if you had to bike all those 525 miles.

I'd say it's both. The choice of lifestyle is what put them, and keeps them, in the location.

I'd say it's both. The choice of lifestyle is what put them, and keeps them, in the location.

If I chose to be married and have a kid or two, there's no way in hell I'd be able to live where I am now. With my income, and assuming that I don't marry into money, my only housing options are pretty far out of town, and there'll be no guarantee that I could bike for utility's sake (riding for fun doesn't count) or even use public transit.

So tell me about this "lifestyle choice" bull**** again.

If I chose to be married and have a kid or two, there's no way in hell I'd be able to live where I am now. With my income, and assuming that I don't marry into money, my only housing options are pretty far out of town, and there'll be no guarantee that I could bike for utility's sake (riding for fun doesn't count) or even use public transit.

So tell me about this "lifestyle choice" bull**** again.You may not be able to afford to live "pretty far out of town", either, given gas prices. You might have to raise your kids in an apartment (lots of people do) or relocate your job, or move to another city, or bike to a train station at both ends of your commute.

The size of my apartment is hardly enough for two adults living minimally, never mind any kids.

Relocating my job means abandoning the career I've got now. So much for retirement.

Moving to another city means moving away from the decent public transit we've got here (trust me, I've been around, and I'm not impressed with almost every place I've been in the US).

Train stations? In this country? Outside of the northeast? ..... BWA-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha... :roflmao2:

Moving to another city means moving away from the decent public transit we've got here (trust me, I've been around, and I'm not impressed with almost every place I've been in the US).

Train stations? In this country? Outside of the northeast? ..... BWA-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha... :roflmao2:
Public transit is inevitably going to be beefed up and trains will return. It's the only way to keep the US economy going, if people can't afford to drive to work.

"Will return" does not equal "here today".

Give it another decade or two. Or maybe more.

Maybe I'm just spoiled by the rail systems in other countries. Sorry.

If I chose to be married and have a kid or two, there's no way in hell I'd be able to live where I am now.


The size of my apartment is hardly enough for two adults living minimally, never mind any kids.

Ditto. That's why many apartment-dwelling households with children avoid living in a tiny 1 bedroom like mine, and get a 2bedroom or bigger instead.

I can tell you for sure, I would not share this apartment with my partner and a kid over age 1 or 2.

The size of my apartment is hardly enough for two adults living minimally, never mind any kids.

Relocating my job means abandoning the career I've got now. So much for retirement.


It would seem that this is rather a reason to get a bigger apartment than anything else. Or are houses in America so much cheaper than 2 or 3 bedroom apartments?

And why would moving to another city mean abandoning your precious career? Or is your job so specialised that you can only work in one city on earth?

It would seem that this is rather a reason to get a bigger apartment than anything else. Or are houses in America so much cheaper than 2 or 3 bedroom apartments?

And why would moving to another city mean abandoning your precious career? Or is your job so specialised that you can only work in one city on earth?

I don't know what this guy does - but being in Washington DC it wouldn't be ridiculous for that to be the only town he can work in for whatever job he has.

Or is your job so specialised that you can only work in one city on earth?

For this particular job in this particular unit, yes.

I returned from a week of living with the relatives- as they do. Drive here, drive there, drive everywhere. I did around 525 miles driving in a week, just doing what they do. In the sprawl land, it takes longer to drive to the grocery than it does for me to walk to the grocery in DC.
[SNIP]
It was nice to experience car culture up close to make myself look smart not to be caught up in wasting my life sitting in a car.

Are you really that provincial as to be surprised how other people live beyond the reach of convenient public transportation? Was this your first trip outside of a big Eastern city?

Somehow I suspect the answers to my questions are no, but rather the OP's post is just an exercise in feeling "smarter" than the relatives and their ilk.

Somehow I suspect the answers to my questions are no, but rather the OP's post is just an exercise in feeling "smarter" than the relatives and their ilk.

Threads proclaiming superiority? Isn't that the subtitle of this forum?

As to living in DC. Not that I have looked everywhere, but from the prices I have seen, many 2 bedroom apartments cost more in rent than the monthly mortgage payment on my 4 bedroom house.

Of course we have friends with a child in a one room efficiency apartment in NYC...

-D

Threads proclaiming superiority? Isn't that the subtitle of this forum?

As to living in DC. Not that I have looked everywhere, but from the prices I have seen, many 2 bedroom apartments cost more in rent than the monthly mortgage payment on my 4 bedroom house.


Your 4 bedroom wouldn't be one a dem Car Culture McMansions we've been hearing so much heated stuff about on this list? Doncha know that living car free properly means living simple, and it is far more simple recommending a one or two bedroom apt in the inner city for a family with children rather than a 4 bedroom house in a good school district? After all your personal biking pleasure and commuting convenience is the family's number one priority. You need more Living Car Free training! ;)

Imagine how tired you'd be, and how little you'd get done, if you had to bike all those 525 miles.



The one thing about bicycling to your destinations, you really have to think about whether making this trip is really necessary, or can it be consolidate with another one. My total monthly driving mileage is a mere fraction of what it used to be in years past, but I still getting the same amount of work done, plus I'm not only saving money on puchasing less fuel, but I'm also saving by not making impulse purchases since it requires more effort on my part, in my local area, to obtain something by bicycle than it does by motor vehicle.

For this particular job in this particular unit, yes.

and there is no way that you could use your experience elsewhere? Sounds like a risky choice of career.

I just did that too. Except that we insisted on walking to the grocery store with the monkey children in tow a couple times. My poor hyperactive children do not adjust well to car travel so taking them on a nice long walk did them a world of good.

and there is no way that you could use your experience elsewhere? Sounds like a risky choice of career.

Not so risky when it's military. The day we lose our funding, DC might not be the capital anymore.

If I chose to be married and have a kid or two, there's no way in hell I'd be able to live where I am now.

...

So tell me about this "lifestyle choice" bull**** again.

Sounds exactly like a lifestyle choice to me.

Your 4 bedroom wouldn't be one a dem Car Culture McMansions we've been hearing so much heated stuff about on this list? Doncha know that living car free properly means living simple, and it is far more simple recommending a one or two bedroom apt in the inner city for a family with children rather than a 4 bedroom house in a good school district? After all your personal biking pleasure and commuting convenience is the family's number one priority. You need more Living Car Free training! ;)

Umm no. It is a very reasonable (Built in 1977) 4 bedroom Colonial. I am on the edge of suburbia and country. But I have a shopping center with grocery, liqueor(sp?), drug store, 3 resteraunts, and a hallmark store about .9 miles away. My kids love biking with me in the trailer.

I work from home most of the time. Otherwise, as an IT consultant, I have to visit clients. Most of which are outside bicycling range. I have a couple close enough to bike to. One of which has showers in their building. They even let me keep some toiletries in an extra locker (SCORE!)

I guess i could move into the city and squeeze into a small apartment. But then I would need to buy office space to work (would be too cramped at home). Most of my clients are outside of the city so I would have to drive to them anyway. Which means trying to keep a car in the city. Nope living in the city for me would be MORE complicated.

-D

Sounds exactly like a lifestyle choice to me.

If finding a mate were entirely up to me, then yeah, you could call it a "choice".

One can choose to be married, have children, and still be car free. I really doubt that I am living the impossible. I admit that making choices a bit outside the mainstream can be socially difficult at first. We used to get a lot of raised eyebrows, but we don't much of a second glance at this point.

One can choose to be married, have children, and still be car free.

One can, but a marriage is two, and if the "majority shareholder" (her) still says "No", then the answer's still "No."

One can, but a marriage is two, and if the "majority shareholder" (her) still says "No", then the answer's still "No."

I didn't know I was the majority shareholder. Could you tell my husband that?

Seriously though, if you go into a decision assuming that cars are a necessity, you will end up with a car. If you go into it assuming that a car is one transportation option among many, you may or may not end up with a car. I'm only offended by the suggestion that a relationship requires a car.

I didn't know I was the majority shareholder. Could you tell my husband that?

Hey, some women are just unreasonable (part of why I'm not in a relationship.. lol).

Hey, some women are just unreasonable (part of why I'm not in a relationship.. lol).

So are some men. But not all of them by any means.

For a forum theoretically about using the bike as one's main source of transportation, there certainly are an awful lot of people who still define themselves by their lack of a car. You complain about a car-centric culture on what is essentially a car-centric forum. Think about it, guys.

Ditto. That's why many apartment-dwelling households with children avoid living in a tiny 1 bedroom like mine, and get a 2bedroom or bigger instead.

I can tell you for sure, I would not share this apartment with my partner and a kid over age 1 or 2.

My neighbor raised two kids, boy and girl in a 1 bedroom and car free. I'm not saying it was pleasant for her and don't know the details. Sometimes when we talk she tells me how the neighborhood was when her kids were young. It helped that the day care was on the same block- the building is now 4 condos.

I have to say that for my relatives it is a car dependent locale but also a lifestyle since they can afford to relocate. My brother and his wife for example both have very transferable jobs and no kids. But they love having two cars each. They complain about traffic. It seems to be this image that they like. Its an image but they can't acquire the reality of driving down an empty road in their sports car or cruising along in a gas hog with every traffic light green. Its also a lifestyle because they'll drive somewhere to walk for exercise but not walk somewhere to do an errand. Its a locale thing because most of the neighborhoods are arranged for driving only. For example where I stayed, the neighborhood has sidewalks but at the intersections the sidewalks don't connect to the street they curve around so older people or people who are feeble or in wheel chairs can't cross at the intersections. Wheelchair users need to know where the nearest driveway is and move out into the street with the cars in order to continue on the sidewalk on the next block. The sidewalks were obviously designed for ceremonial not utilitarian purposes. Most neighborhoods where I visited don't have sidewalks at all.

One can, but a marriage is two, and if the "majority shareholder" (her) still says "No", then the answer's still "No."

Getting into a relationship is a choice. Having children is a choice. Very, very few things in life are not choices, despite what people like to claim.

Getting into a relationship is a choice. Having children is a choice. Very, very few things in life are not choices, despite what people like to claim.

Getting into a relationship with a whiny ***** who can't accept the fact that I'm on the road for a third of the year is a choice I'll GLADLY make.

How's that?

For a forum theoretically about using the bike as one's main source of transportation, there certainly are an awful lot of people who still define themselves by their lack of a car. You complain about a car-centric culture on what is essentially a car-centric forum. Think about it, guys.

The forum's name is "living car-free"... hmm, I wonder why these car things are part of the self-identification? :p

Look, I'm not going to do this hardcore hippie bull**** and pick a lifestyle that doesn't work in much of the US while foregoing the "choices" that put some ****ing food on the table and a roof over my head while still being satisfying.

"Car lite" works enough for me, here. It wouldn't fly back in my hometown, nor where I went to college. You can have your little obsession if you want, but don't be surprised when not everyone is going to do the same thing.

The forum's name is "living car-free"... hmm, I wonder why these car things are part of the self-identification? :p

There sure is a strange focus on cars coming from a bunch of people that supposedly hate them.

For a forum theoretically about using the bike as one's main source of transportation, there certainly are an awful lot of people who still define themselves by their lack of a car. You complain about a car-centric culture on what is essentially a car-centric forum. Think about it, guys.

I am posting to a forum titled "Living Car Free", if my posts are being cross posted to another forum I'm not responsible. After living car-free for 8 years, my occasional dips back into the car-dependent lifestyle highlight the differences and reinforce my love of living car free. I thought that people who are contemplating going car free would be interested that going back to the car dependent lifestyle for a week didn't make me want to move to suburbia and get a car, quite the opposite. It took several years for my relatives to quit asking "Don't you miss having a car?". This trip they didn't ask.

There sure is a strange focus on cars coming from a bunch of people that supposedly hate them.

Its human nature to focus on things we hate.

More to the point, part of the car-free movement* is to actually fight car use/dependence, hence the emphasis. Heck, the name of this forum should be self-explanatory:

living: lifestyle; how one lives; structure of daily life; functioning on a daily basis, etc.
car: well, duh. (sometimes specific: personal motor vehicle; contrast with public/work use)
free: freedom; implies the positive (contrast with car-less); can denote achievement (drug-free, dept-free, etc.)

Anyone acting surprised that the Living Car-Free forum is about reducing/removing the use of cars in daily life is either trolling or missing the point.

*NOTE: No, I am not assuming every contributor to this forum identifies with the car-free movement, politics, or belief.

We're definitely pushing the edge of the envelope here. It is possible under favorable circumstances to live without a personal motor vehicle. It is not always easy and not always convenient. It is certainly not conventional in many places. There are a few people who want to jeer and catcall at what we are trying to do. I don't pay much attention to them any more, it's essentially the same thing as a car full of rowdies screaming unintelligible things at cyclists as they roar by.

Its human nature to focus on things we hate.

More to the point, part of the car-free movement* is to actually fight car use/dependence, hence the emphasis. Heck, the name of this forum should be self-explanatory:

living: lifestyle; how one lives; structure of daily life; functioning on a daily basis, etc.
car: well, duh. (sometimes specific: personal motor vehicle; contrast with public/work use)
free: freedom; implies the positive (contrast with car-less); can denote achievement (drug-free, dept-free, etc.)

Anyone acting surprised that the Living Car-Free forum is about reducing/removing the use of cars in daily life is either trolling or missing the point.

*NOTE: No, I am not assuming every contributor to this forum identifies with the car-free movement, politics, or belief.^^^^^^^^^^The Utility Cycling forum was started for cyclists who are willing to get on with their lives and don't take themselves so seriously. This forum is mostly about "Cager Hate" and some ill-defined "movement."
And Peak-Oil.
And being the Rosa Parks of cycling.
And George Bush.
And conspiracy theory.


Again, those that don't feel comfortable with the schizophrenic meta-narrative and like talking bikes instead of cars head over to Utility Cycling, FYI.

Again, those that don't feel comfortable with the schizophrenic meta-narrative and like talking bikes instead of cars head over to Utility Cycling, FYI.

Clearly you enjoy schizophrenic meta-narrative.

We're definitely pushing the edge of the envelope here. It is possible under favorable circumstances to live without a personal motor vehicle. It is not always easy and not always convenient. It is certainly not conventional in many places. There are a few people who want to jeer and catcall at what we are trying to do. I don't pay much attention to them any more, it's essentially the same thing as a car full of rowdies screaming unintelligible things at cyclists as they roar by.

Thank you for the thoughtful, sane, and intelligent post.

Especially sentences two and three - points that some posters here are determined to forget. Just because it works easily for them doesn't mean it'll work easily for everyone else on this board.

So tell me about this "lifestyle choice" bull**** again.
Well, apparently you have selected an occupation that neither pays well nor provides enough benefits to cover for the lack of income. That was the first wrong "lifestyle choice". Everything else follows.


Or is your job so specialised that you can only work in one city on earth?
My job is specialized enough that I can only find work (more or less) in four cities on earth - London, New York, Tokio and Hong Kong. However, in these cities there is plenty of positions for me that I would never have to relocate to, God forbid, some place like Columbus, OH. In fact, from my perspective, the only state I care about in the United States is the State of Manhattan.

Look, I'm not going to do this hardcore hippie bull**** and pick a lifestyle that doesn't work in much of the US while foregoing the "choices" that put some ****ing food on the table and a roof over my head while still being satisfying.

"Car lite" works enough for me, here. It wouldn't fly back in my hometown, nor where I went to college. You can have your little obsession if you want, but don't be surprised when not everyone is going to do the same thing.

You certainly seem like a pleasant and reasonable person, not to say downright charming, so personality can obviously not be the reason you are single.

But what you, and many others, fail to grasp here is that you can't blame your anti-environmental behaviour on your career. It is not a valid argument to say "I need a car because I work as a taxi-driver," since there is nothing forcing you to be a taxi-driver. If it were the case that taxi-driving is the only job that could possibly support you and your family at a reasonable level above poverty, then you have a very valid excuse to pollute. If the reason you choose a polluting life-style is only one of personal preference, like "I want to have wads of cash to spend on plasma-screens" or "I like big cars", then you will have to take moral responsibility for polluting our Earth. You can of course still pollute, but you can't blame anyone else.

You certainly seem like a pleasant and reasonable person, not to say downright charming, so personality can obviously not be the reason you are single.

But what you, and many others, fail to grasp here is that you can't blame your anti-environmental behaviour ...

:rolleyes:

I win.

"Anti-environmental", blah blah blah... that's got nothing to do with it.

I could almost live car-free RIGHT NOW. The reasons I still have a car, I can count on one hand. But those reasons could never be handled by a bike, no matter how awesome it is.

But what you, and many others, fail to grasp here is that you can't blame your anti-environmental behaviour on your career. It is not a valid argument to say "I need a car because I work as a taxi-driver," since there is nothing forcing you to be a taxi-driver. If it were the case that taxi-driving is the only job that could possibly support you and your family at a reasonable level above poverty, then you have a very valid excuse to pollute. If the reason you choose a polluting life-style is only one of personal preference, like "I want to have wads of cash to spend on plasma-screens" or "I like big cars", then you will have to take moral responsibility for polluting our Earth. You can of course still pollute, but you can't blame anyone else.

Yet the funny irony is that there are many polliting jobs that people must "choose" so that you can feel morally responsible in your non-polluting lifestyle.

-D

Yet the funny irony is that there are many polliting jobs that people must "choose" so that you can feel morally responsible in your non-polluting lifestyle.

-D

Such as the ones where the IT industry is becoming more polluting than the airline industry... :thumb:

In other words, there are lots of childless single folks on this subforum living in Boston, Chicago and New York who can't possibly imagine why someone with a family in Idaho, Texas or Montana might need a car. Some things never change.

:rolleyes:

I win.

"Anti-environmental", blah blah blah... that's got nothing to do with it.

I could almost live car-free RIGHT NOW. The reasons I still have a car, I can count on one hand. But those reasons could never be handled by a bike, no matter how awesome it is.

Car-lite is excellent, if you only need a car for a few chores. Is there any chance a car-rental or a car-share arrangement would be able to work in your situation? If you're using a car for business use, you could deduct your car-related expenses on taxes.

Car-sharing (you mean like Zipcar, right?) is more inconvenient around here than you'd expect. It's popular, and I see them on the road all the time, but they're also rarely parked & waiting to be driven. I could spend all night waiting to find one.

Rentals wouldn't be any cheaper than my paid-off car, notably on 1500-mile+ round trips.

I don't need my car very often for work (usually only to carry luggage or instruments, or to go to Quantico), and they actually reimburse me for mileage driven if applicable.

I'm not as blind to reality as some of these jokers think.

Yet the funny irony is that there are many polliting jobs that people must "choose" so that you can feel morally responsible in your non-polluting lifestyle.

-D

I think you are missing the point. If someone chooses to do a job that requires them to drive a car around 8 hours a day, I am sure it is not for my sake. Most people do have a choice. I am not saying that society would function as usual if all lorry drivers changed jobs, just that you can't blame your occupation for you pollution. "Don't blame me for stealing things, it's my job, I am a thief".

And I don't recall discussing MY lifestyle at all. For all you know I might be an oil company executive, or a hunter-gatherer. That is quite beside the point.