Bicycle Mechanics - Plea: Fellow wrenches, please grease the tough stuff

Hey guys, you know from working on old bikes that eventually what you do is going to be worked on by somebody else somewhere down the line - and that might be 25 years from now.

You would think with all that is known today that everybody would be making liberal use of grease to keep parts from melting together, but I still find stuff dry as a bone and corroding together. It takes a lot of tricks, chemicals, muscle, time, swearing, and praying to get some of this stuff apart and back into workable condition.

After struggling with frozen headsets and pedals this weekend, let me encourage everybody to PLEASE:


grease the stem and stem bolt
grease pedal bolts. Don't over-tighten
grease seat post
grease any point where aluminum comes in contact with steel.


Also, remember not to oil before tightening bolts. Oiling allows you to overtighten and when the oil disepates, it is really tough to get the parts to budge. If you want to oil for corrosion protection, do it AFTER you assemble. IMO, every screw and bolt end should have a wipe of grease to keep it from corroding.

Some future wrench will surely notice your work and thank you profusely. Be a cool cat and think of the next wrench. Who knows... it might come back to you for work years from now.

Greaser or not, 25 years from now stuff is going to be seized - especially if the bike is being ridden.

I completely dissemble every part and bolt on bikes when I am not riding them to prevent this from happening. You can never be too careful;)

Greaser or not, 25 years from now stuff is going to be seized - especially if the bike is being ridden.


This is not necessarily so. 25 years ago was 1983. Not so long ago really in bike years. I work on bikes a lot older than that that are not seized - especially if some thoughtful mechanic properly greased the parts.

I work on bikes a lot older than that that are not seized - especially if some thoughtful mechanic properly greased the parts.

Not doubting your claims, but i've worked on bikes a lot younger than 25 years and parts have been seized - even with adequate grease application.

I'm not saying your situation is impossible, but when you have Toronto winters, snow, ice and wetness all year around unless you're doing post #3 or are exceptionally on top your mainteance. Stuff -will- seize, regardless of many tons of grease was used on the bolt/nut/nipple etc to begin with.

Although I do understand the frustration - which is the main point of #1 anyways. K, nitpicking off.

Why bother when removing stuck components pays shop rates?

I thank the previous mechanics that don't use grease, keeps folks like us in the know in business. ;)

Also, remember not to oil before tightening bolts. Oiling allows you to overtighten and when the oil disepates, it is really tough to get the parts to budge.

Huh? Oiling allows you to CORRECTLY and ACCURATELY tighten the bolts with a torque wrench. That said, I cover bolts with anti-seize.

Anti-seize is somewhat better than grease for longer term protection. The major issues is galvonic corrosion which occurs when two dissimilar metals are in contact with one another in an electrolytic solution (i.e. dirty water). Anti-seize keeps the water out and does not break down under more conditons than most greases.

Anti-seize is somewhat better than grease for longer term protection. The major issues is galvonic corrosion which occurs when two dissimilar metals are in contact with one another in an electrolytic solution (i.e. dirty water). Anti-seize keeps the water out and does not break down under more conditons than most greases.

Good point. I don't have anti-sieze in my workshop, but I will pick some up next time I go shopping. Any suggestions as to brand, type, etc?

Good point. I don't have anti-sieze in my workshop, but I will pick some up next time I go shopping. Any suggestions as to brand, type, etc?

for bike purposes any kind will do.

Greaser or not, 25 years from now stuff is going to be seized - especially if the bike is being ridden.
They wont if you apply anti-seize to the threaded surfaces. If you use anti-seize an archaeologist in a 1,000 years could easily dissemble the parts.

Amen, Mike! I cannot think of a single bike I've seen sold by a local bike shop that has been properly prepped in this fashion. Take it out of the box, put the parts on, and throw it on the floor is the mentality.

That said, I've seen posts and stems in battered VLW's - posts that were greased 35+ years ago - slide out with hardly a issue. The grease might have deteriorated to an extent in the meantime, but it still served its purpose without issue.

Likewise, I've seen lightly-used steel Treks that are no less then 15 years old with permanently jammed stems and a few other stiff assemblies, thanks to sloppy, careless assembly.

I can see the future frustration...

-Kurt

I completely dissemble every part and bolt on bikes when I am not riding them to prevent this from happening. You can never be too careful;)

I go one step further and pack it in cosmoline.

A lot of the shops dictate what the mechanics are permitted to do in prepping a bike - it's all about the efficiency and the bottom line. For example, one place I know, the mechs aren't allowed to do anything to the wheels of a new bike beyond lateral truing -- so any hops or flat spots that would require taking off the tire go unattended.

I hesitate to ask what their attitude towards warranty repair is. "Buy it and get lost," eh?

-Kurt

I go one step further and pack it in cosmoline.

I have a sealed oxygen-free clean room in my basement 40' underground.

Recently there was a customer who ended up paying $70 in order to put on a bottle cage because the bolt was siezed in the frame, had to be drilled out and and repaired. Grease botle cage bolts, too. Giving every bolt a quick swipe in a tub of grease is worth the seconds it takes.

Recently there was a customer who ended up paying $70 in order to put on a bottle cage because the bolt was siezed in the frame, had to be drilled out and and repaired. Grease botle cage bolts, too. Giving every bolt a quick swipe in a tub of grease is worth the seconds it takes.

$70 bottle cage. Who gave the customer that bill? Knock of 10% for favored customer discount? hee hee.

Huh? Oiling allows you to CORRECTLY and ACCURATELY tighten the bolts with a torque wrench. That said, I cover bolts with anti-seize.

A small point to add.....

On the better torque tables supplied by fastener compaines you'll find two torque values. One for dry threads and another for lubricated threads. Lube including oil, grease or anti sieze compounds.

If you lube a thread and then torque it to the dry spec the bolt will actually have somewhere around 20% more tension in it than it's supposed to have.

This is something good for me to be reading now - I'm just getting into wrenching around with my bikes, taking apart bottom brackets and headsets to re-grease them and replace bearings as needed. The bike I inherited from my dad likely hadn't been re-greased since it was purchased some 28 years ago. He said they just oiled everything - but the bike has also sat hanging from the garage ceiling for the last 10 or so years. The grease in the bottom bracket was hard, almost the point of being able to be chipped off (it wasn't but another year or two it might have been). The bike was almost a new machine by the time I was done with just the bottom bracket. Next is the head set and then wheel bearings.

As a novice bike mechanic in training - these kinds of things are good to know.

A small point to add.....

On the better torque tables supplied by fastener compaines you'll find two torque values. One for dry threads and another for lubricated threads. Lube including oil, grease or anti sieze compounds.

If you lube a thread and then torque it to the dry spec the bolt will actually have somewhere around 20% more tension in it than it's supposed to have.

Thanks for this, BCRider. I knew it to be true, but never knew the exact amount of difference between tightening dry or lubricated. All I know is that if you tighten with oil, you tend to overtighten. I have not found this to be the same with grease. Maybe it is because the grease remains when you go to loosen, but oil dissipates after tightening and with time, leaving the fastener super-tight.

This is something good for me to be reading now - I'm just getting into wrenching around with my bikes, taking apart bottom brackets and headsets to re-grease them and replace bearings as needed. The bike I inherited from my dad likely hadn't been re-greased since it was purchased some 28 years ago. He said they just oiled everything - but the bike has also sat hanging from the garage ceiling for the last 10 or so years. The grease in the bottom bracket was hard, almost the point of being able to be chipped off (it wasn't but another year or two it might have been). The bike was almost a new machine by the time I was done with just the bottom bracket. Next is the head set and then wheel bearings.

As a novice bike mechanic in training - these kinds of things are good to know.

Thumbs up and hats off to you, tekknoschtev. :thumb:

You added at least another 30 years to the life of the bike. Want to take it a step further? Write up something about your Dad and the bike, then you and the bike. Roll it up, put it into a plastic bag, and slip it into the post tube for a future owner/collector to find.

I am working on an 80+ year old Columbian right now. It would be really cool to know something about the original owner. How did he get the bike? What did the bike mean to him? Who was it? How long was it in the family before it moved on to the next owner? Of course, it would have probably been wrapped in oilcloth or paraphin canvas instead of a plastic bag.

A small point to add.....

On the better torque tables supplied by fastener compaines you'll find two torque values. One for dry threads and another for lubricated threads. Lube including oil, grease or anti sieze compounds.

If you lube a thread and then torque it to the dry spec the bolt will actually have somewhere around 20% more tension in it than it's supposed to have.

I don't claim otherwise, but if a manufacturer gives you a torque spec you should be able to assume that it is a lubricated value, unless stated otherwise. Dry torque values are much less accurate than oiled/anti-seized ones. Additionally, most manufactures have a large margin of error for their torque values and even if you did mistakenly oil a bolt and then torque it to a dry value, you should still be within the margin of error (in my experience).

Tabor is correct. Most torque values assume some sort of lube on the threads. I'm still new to wrenching on bikes, but for cars and places where torque values matter (engine assembly) this is the case.

Don't think that all forms of thread lube are identical when it comes to torque. "Wet" specs typically assume 30W motor oil. E.g. ARP sells a thread lube that makes a difference of up to 25% when translating torque to bolt stretch (that's what the torque spec is: a rough indication of bolt stretch). So they have two wet specs for their threaded fasteners: one for motor oil and one for their own lube.

On bikes I generally use nickel-based anti-seize and aim for the middle of the manufacturer's torque spec.

How do you guys put grease on threads - do you cover the entire length of the threads all the way around, just put some on the end (that goes in first), or in a line down the length of the threads? Which is the best method without wasting grease?

Why would anyone fool around with a 25 yo bike anyway? Their Significant Other should tell them to stop. bk

How do you guys put grease on threads - do you cover the entire length of the threads all the way around, just put some on the end (that goes in first), or in a line down the length of the threads? Which is the best method without wasting grease?

All of the instructional videos I've seen indicate that you should put on a thin layer with some sort of brush.

Why would anyone fool around with a 25 yo bike anyway? Their Significant Other should tell them to stop. bk

Don't start knocking the C&V'ers now :p

-Kurt

How do you guys put grease on threads -

I just dab some around the threads up at the nose. It will get spread out as the fastener is treaded in. Long bolts I dab some part way up too. How much is mostly a matter of experience. For dry or new threads I'll run it all the way in then back it out and check for coverage. Experts recommend that a new bolt be torqued once, then backed out and re-torqued for best accuracy (probably to condition the threads). I'm not that always anal on bikes but it's a good habit to get into.

Incidentally, thought I'd relay this story, for the "grease + age = useless" nay-sayers.

I had to extract a steel binder bolt from a poorly cared-for, surface oxidized, 15+ year-old aluminum stem yesterday. Came out like butter, and no wonder - a glob of nice, fresh grease was sitting at the tip, while the rest of the grease sat in a thin film around the threads, as clean and neat as you could ever ask for. The grease did its job.

So much for the bull theory that grease doesn't last. http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/tongue/tongue0013.gif

-Kurt

I just dab some around the threads up at the nose. It will get spread out as the fastener is treaded in. Long bolts I dab some part way up too. How much is mostly a matter of experience. For dry or new threads I'll run it all the way in then back it out and check for coverage. Experts recommend that a new bolt be torqued once, then backed out and re-torqued for best accuracy (probably to condition the threads). I'm not that always anal on bikes but it's a good habit to get into.

Thanks. I work as an electronics tech in a steel plate mill, and since starting to learn to to work on bikes in earnst and reading Zinn & The Art of Mountain Bike Maintenance I have started to put grease on fasteners on the job as well. You wouldn't believe how bound up even small fasteners can get in the dirty, corrosive environment I work in. I keep a small container of multi-purpose grease in my tool pouch, and where appropriate, dip the end of the fasteners in before driving it in. This is a nice clean and fast method. I also carry a rag to wipe the threads off first.

Incidentally, thought I'd relay this story, for the "grease + age = useless" nay-sayers.

I had to extract a steel binder bolt from a poorly cared-for, surface oxidized, 15+ year-old aluminum stem yesterday. Came out like butter, and no wonder - a glob of nice, fresh grease was sitting at the tip, while the rest of the grease sat in a thin film around the threads, as clean and neat as you could ever ask for. The grease did its job.

So much for the bull theory that grease doesn't last. http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/tongue/tongue0013.gif

-Kurt

I have a 1957 VW where every time I have to work on it, it's a joy, because the previous mechanics (I've had the car 20 years, so it's mostly me now) greased any fasteners on reassembly for anything they worked on. I had a 1975 VW on which I learned how to use a torch to get stuck fasteners out, because none of the previous mechanics gave a $#!+. I don't have the 75 anymore.

Yes the grease lasts. 50 years and counting.

I have a 1957 VW where every time I have to work on it, it's a joy, because the previous mechanics (I've had the car 20 years, so it's mostly me now) greased any fasteners on reassembly for anything they worked on.

Bravo!

-Kurt

Why would anyone fool around with a 25 yo bike anyway? Their Significant Other should tell them to stop. bk

Depends what you mean fool around. Fool around as in ride, or fool around as in wrench? Post this on a vintage bike thread and see how long you live. ;-)

Mind you, while I am fine working on my own modern bike creation (c 2008), I steer well clear of any serious wrenching on my vintage bike (c 1984) outside of maintenance -- that I leave to the LBS who have old tools and the experience with these things.

There really should be a warning for grave digging old threads. I get half way through it before I realize I'm reading something that is eons old.

Question: What's the difference between grease and anti-seize?
Grease is oil with a thickening agent added (often lithium based). Anti-seize is grease with metal flakes added to make it conductive (prevents electrolytic galling).

I like Bowman anti sieze, but it ain't cheap.

Grease is for moving parts, anti seize is for non moving parts. One of the main ingredients in most ainti seize compounds, moly, will continue to "lubricate" even if dry.

Good news though, a can will last a very long time. The one I have is probably 25 years old and still going strong. I use it on car, truck, motorcycle, bikes, anything I happen to be wrenching on. Just paint it on with a flux brush, or the brush in cap. Don't need much!

In an effort to reduce all that praying, I will grease. Leave the swearing as it is; an often effective second step. bk
Tongue in cheek? Moi? Non!

I have always used grease. Is anti-seize really up to the task of being used on a bicycle? The stuff I have is pretty thin. I can see it working a long time on threads, but maybe not on a stem. I recently took a stem out that had been used for 25 years, and it wasn't easy. But that was on my racing bike, I imagine it has seen some sweat over the years.

I recently had to remove a freewheel from an old bike of mine that had been in storage for 25 (yes - 25!) years. It came off rather easily. I examined the hub and freewheel. There was the grease I'd used back then - still nice & slippery. It was a Teflon-based grease.

I thanked myself.

Ask a Specialized rep about Hawai'i (and particularly Kailua) corrosion issues. We are legendary apparently.
"Grease is cheap, frozen parts are not."
I use cheap Lithium grease for most assembly, dipping in every bolt tip including water-bottle bolts and nice Tri-flow grease for bearings.
Anti-seize, Ti-prep and carbon assembly paste are all well worth their initial cost for the peace of mind.

A well greased part will come off decades later.

Tabor is correct. Most torque values assume some sort of lube on the threads. I'm still new to wrenching on bikes, but for cars and places where torque values matter (engine assembly) this is the case.For both aviation (FAA) and all of the automotive service manuals (which I've ever seen), it is by far most common for torque specs to assume "clean, dry" threads unless otherwise specified.

FAA Advisory Circular 43.13-1B, Chapter 7 (http://rgl.faa.gov/REGULATORY_AND_GUIDANCE_LIBRARY/RGADVISORYCIRCULAR.NSF/0/99c827db9baac81b86256b4500596c4e/$FILE/Chapter%2007.pdf), 7-40b - "Be sure the bolt and nut threads are
clean and dry, unless otherwise specified by the manufacturer."

If someone has access to SAE J1701, it would be interesting to see what it says. I suspect it gives both dry and lubricated torques.

Here's a US Military HUMMER maintenance manual (http://www.tpub.com/content/hummer/TM-9-2320-362-14P/css/TM-9-2320-362-14P_334.htm), which states "Torque values listed are based on clean and dry threads. Reduce torque by 10% when engine oil is used as a lubricant."

Here's one for 2.5 ton trucks (http://www.tpub.com/content/trucks2.5ton/TM-9-2320-209-20-3-1/TM-9-2320-209-20-3-10029.htm): "based on use of clean and dry threads"

Jeep manual (http://www.oljeep.com/gw/76_tsm/Section0A.pdf): "Note that torque specifications given in the chart are based on use of clean and dry threads."

Kawasaki motorcycle (http://books.google.com/books?id=XUxW98qdKVsC&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=%22torque+specifications%22+%22clean+dry%22+threads&source=web&ots=CNxFksdc-L&sig=SkCkb-W-CxOpluJYtyXBiWBdn1k&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result): "The Kawasaki torque specifications listed in the manual are for clean, dry threads (unless specified differently in the text)."

Aprilia electric bike (http://www.sgnc.dk/documents/00013.pdf): "Unless otherwise specified, tightening torques are given for clean, dry threads at room temperature."

I would have included more "bike" like references, but it seems bike manufacturers don't specify one way or the other (although I found one which said to use the same torque for either dry or lubricated!):eek:

I, for one, think it's okay to resurrect an old thread - if one has relevant, new information to contribute to what one would find if they did use 'Search.'

+1 I bought a really dirty 25 year old Lotus at a thrift store. I was pleasantly surprised once I cleaned it up that internally, the frame still had a nice coating of framesaver on it. It looked like the bike had been very well maintained for many years, then sat neglected. So to the former owner wherever he may be, thanks for protecting the frame from rust!

It is all in the metals used I think. Generally the more expensive a bike is, the better the materials used. This lead to less stucked posts & bolts. I have had to throw away many of the low end frames just because of that. A jammed seat post means the bike is stucked at one size. I am in the 'bike-recycling' business..

Copper grease is great as anti-seize, and very thick as well, I don't expect to see it disappearing any time soon. But failing that, just use the thickest grease you've got, anything is better than nothing.

Greaser or not, 25 years from now stuff is going to be seized - especially if the bike is being ridden.

-10

The farmers around where I live don't have any bearings in their wheel barrels. Its just and axle and grease, and the wheel barrels are like 25 years old at least.

As far as thread necromancy goes, this was a pretty harmless/informative one. I'll be picking up some anti-seize on the way home to complement the grease/lube contingent at my house.

I completely dissemble every part and bolt on bikes when I am not riding them to prevent this from happening. You can never be too careful;)

Is it bad if I enjoy doing that too?